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Dragon's Crown (Vanillaware PS3/PSV) Sorceress Trailer
- Thread starter Takao
- Start date
I always found it funny how DOA and SC were supposed to be "objectifying women" so much, but the most female gamers i ran into online were playing DOA4. Not to mention going to cons running into an Ivy ( in hewr SC4 getup)cosplayer was not uncommon.
There's nothing wrong with women dressing however she likes. I'm not speaking for women, not even close, never said I have. I don't even have this debate "for woman", I do it for myself - Because I think these sort of things are bad, for all of us.
This sorceress is not a woman taking control of her sexuality, she's a pin-up model. I mean, look at that art I posted. That pose oozes sex, quite needlessly. No other character, except maybe the amazon, has been put in such a sexual pose for these official art pieces.
Well, personally I consider her art to be a disservice as it helps further sexualization of women in the gaming industry. Women can, and do, help keep the patriarchy... It's unfortunate, but sometimes to succeed in a male dominated world you must do these things. I cannot judge for it, of curse. I'm still only an ally in the feminist struggle.
I did not claim to speak for all women, but I said that it was a cop out and possibly more to say that the sorceress might act from a position of power, since this design is so clearly something made solely for the amusement of men.
spandexmonkey
Banned
Again, I ask can you substantiate that it's something truly harmful and not just the discomfort both men and women feel when looking at beautiful people.
And why can't a "pin up" model with exaggerated proportions (primarily the breast) be empowered enough to break free of the "sexual object" label? It's obvious that her hyper sexuality is a part of her identity but her function is far beyond just that.
I think the difference in culture (east v west) and your presumptions that causes cognitive dissonance are the larger issues here.
SolidSnakex
Member
Or maybe it's just what she likes? Isn't that a possibility? Perhaps she doesn't find it offensive, just as women in this thread have stated that they don't find the Sorceress to be offensive. I'm pretty certain that the concept, story and art for Code of Princess all came from her. She didn't have to draw Solange in a revealing outfit, but she chose to.
If that's the choice a female wants to make....
Believe it or not, many people try to look as sexually attractive as they can. But I guess a girl doing so just screams sexual object. Is that what you're saying?
Because ever man wants to be bald, ridicously muscular and dumb, right?
I don't know anyone that would want to be Kratos, but he's still considered a power fantasy, isn't he?
EDIT: I don't even agree that the sorceress is a power fantasy, but this is not a very good point.
semiconscious
Member
it's been done (reposted from previous page):
look familiar?
look again:
offensive? or just a silly bit of fun?...
dumb? lovable? subversive? maybe. but demeaning?... really don't think so...
Or maybe she just enjoys drawing sexy women, she's far from the only female artist that does it.
Mr_Antimatter
Member
I remember being at PAX a few years back when they first showed off the Sylvari race in Gw 2, and someone asked about all the sexy/skimpy armor in GW 1. One of the female designers, who was giving the panel, basically said they put it in because they, females included, thought it was sexy and they liked it.
I do admit the design in question is a bit, well, over the top, but then again so is every design in this game. It's like every one of them is somehow a character of fantasy tropes. In the context of the game, she looks fine.
That's a far cry from some other games, where the sex appeal doesn't fit with the rest of the world design.
Pyrrhus
Member
So you are in fact saying that you believe male sexuality is inherently pernicious to women.
Schobeleth
Member
I am all for equal rights/treatment but this is just silly. You're taking this wayyyy, wayyyy to far from the original argument (IMO) which was - the sorceress, amazon, etc have ridiculous character designs who were probably drawn by a 14 year old boy (Kotaku's words). It has since been spun into a moral argument that is just bringing in the clicks for Kotaku.
They were not drawn by a teenage boy, and the general census is that she's not in a position of objectification, she is kicking just as much ass as the regular characters. Sure, her huge floppy breasts are distracting but that's part of her character design. It boils down to the character art in general, it's not meant to be proportionate or adhere to what we consider normal or acceptable for women or men.
Let's say the gaming fanbase is 50/50, just for the sake of argument. If a game covers both genders in terms of style, then what's the problem? You can play as any of those characters, if you don't identify with the woman with the giant knockers then you can just play as the Amazon, or if you want something that's completely acceptable in your world, play as the Elf.
Look, I'm not trying to say that objectification of women is ok, I'm not. I'm just saying that sex or attractive characters/people sells products. I know that there are plenty of games out there that have completely acceptable female characters/designs that sell well, but generally games have been predominantly made with men in mind.
Maybe this boils down to the stigma that "there are no girl gamers", therefore they shouldn't design games to appeal to them, but I digress. I don't think this is something that will be resolved, no matter how much you shout it from the rooftops.
DangerousDave
Member
Can anyone help me to see where the sexist line is in this issue?
Is sexist to: like sexualized women?
Is sexist to: like to see sexualized women?
Is sexist to: play a game as a sexualized women character?
Is sexist to: make a game that allow to play as a sexualized women character?
Is sexist to: like sexualized women?
Is sexist to: like to see sexualized women?
Is sexist to: play a game as a sexualized women character?
Is sexist to: make a game that allow to play as a sexualized women character?
Pyrrhus
Member
Do you mean "play as" sexualized women? Or are we talking Doki Doki Majou Shinpan?
DangerousDave
Member
yep, right, fixed it.
spandexmonkey
Banned
If the women in the game where not allowed to fight, made weaker than their male counter parts, or the women were the only ones with exagerated features or exposure then the game would be crossing the line.
If the game was aiming for mass market appeal, along the lines of Call of Duty or The Sims, then it's exagerated designs for BOTH men and women should be seen as a marginal negative thing.
The real danger is if a game reinforces a negative stereotype or gender role (Women bad at math, can't defend herself, should stay home, weaker than men) or is excluding women from participation (Assassin's Creed main line not having a female lead, Battlefield 4's lack of female soldiers, publishers refusing female leads, etc).
Dragon's Crown is mostly harmless, but if exagerated forms (both men and women) make you feel uncomfortable, you should probably avoid it. And of course, probably not for children.
Weltall Zero
Member
You don't know the half of it. Seriously. There has never been any chance of any other discussion about this game in the two years it's been in the making.
This is specific of this one game, though, as most of their previous games had pretty regular-bodied main characters. Of which at least half are female, by the way. Odin Sphere had five main characters, three of which were female.
So her art is a disservice, it helps keep the patriarchy, and you believe the only way she does it is because she was forced to, but you aren't judging her?
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
So good.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
Boy, in my experience, this is the truth, haha.
Well, some of this isn't completely bullshit.
But it will be.
I am hoping I'll be too busy laying waste with the Amazon to focus on it.
look familiar?
look again:
offensive? or just a silly bit of fun?
Man, the lady of the house loves Elvira.
Weltall Zero
Member
Part of this debate (like those pejorative comments towards women drawing sexy art) is not new at all; it's a quite delicate and complex issue at the core of one of the biggest schisms in feminism. There are no easy or absolute answers to it, and people have been arguing about it for decades. If and of you are really interested in the intricacies of this issue (as opposed to just wanting others to know about your awesome opinion), I really suggest you read this very short Wikipedia summary before going on:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_Sex_Wars
While I identify myself with feminism (or, from my point of view, egalitarism), this is one issue I don't have a clear-cut opinion of; although I tend to side with the "sex-positive" side, I also do realize how some repercussions can lead to oppression, especially in a male-dominated society.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_Sex_Wars
While I identify myself with feminism (or, from my point of view, egalitarism), this is one issue I don't have a clear-cut opinion of; although I tend to side with the "sex-positive" side, I also do realize how some repercussions can lead to oppression, especially in a male-dominated society.
spandexmonkey
Banned
Silly, outlandish or rediculous would probably be a better description. Easy to see why some people may not like it.
Dark Octave
Banned
Mind blown. Never thought about what Elvira really looked like.look familiar?
look again:
offensive? or just a silly bit of fun?
I don't understand what's wrong with having sexualized characters when there are also plenty that aren't.
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
either of those work too. with boobs that big though you'd expect them to be a plot point. if the story is about her trying to acquire all of the boob enlargement spells then i can see where they're going.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
Super muscular males don't really appeal to me at all. Does that mean I am not male?
I think there's a description somewhere saying that she transformed her body through magic/sorcery or something like that so that's a possibility. Since that was mentioned I'm sure we'll see her original form at some point.
Pyrrhus
Member
And get this, man. She's 61.
still hot. Good for her.
spandexmonkey
Banned
I personally would like to have seen them sexualize their men more to women's tastes. Someone linked the castanics from Tera earlier as a good example:
Women should definitely start demanding better man candy. The old stand by's of being a protector and bread winner should no longer define what an attractive man is.
Pyrrhus
Member
Talk about sorcery, right?
Are you certain those are sexualized to the tastes of women?
spandexmonkey
Banned
I can't speak for them of course, just going by what my wife says. Would definitely like to hear some other women's opinions of what a beautiful/sexy man is.
~Devil Trigger~
In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
She got babies to feed
Dark Octave
Banned
That's incredible. She really took care of herself.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
I don't think I can keep up with this thread anymore. Way too many dudes in here thinking they know what's best for all women and laying down the law about how everyone should feel about a piece of art.
The Grim Heaper
Member
This. Honestly, you know what's misogynous? When guys talk with guys, about what's best for women ignoring women's opinions in the process. And, most women are ok with this kind of art. Good old "Try not to think you know what's best for others."
What many of you are actually complaining about, is the "apparent lack of games targeted at girls and other demographic groups". But is there really a lack of them? We have Wii-games, we have Kinect games, we have mobile phone games. People are different, and like different things. Can people try and stop forcing the usual blockbuster console game diversification. Guys like sports, violent movies, and such much more too. And there's nothing wrong with it. People are different.
On topic, add me to the list who now knows Dragon's Crown and is interested in buying it as a result.
Chet Rippo
Member
I need this game in my life!
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
Memes may be bad form for a serious discussion, but this is all I've been able to think about since yesterday.
This has to be self-parody; nobody can write something so condescending with a straight face.
SolidSnakex
Member
This has been a common theme. Several women have tried to point out that this isn't the open and shut case of sexist design that Jason and others have tried to make it out to be. But they're either ignored or written of as being a strawman argument like the indie dev quotes that were posted earlier in the thread.
Of course, it's the white man's burden.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
This thread in a nutshell
