D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
It goes both ways. Why should either party be forced to change in order to appease the other party?
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Dragon's Crown (Vanillaware PS3/PSV) Sorceress Trailer
- Thread starter Takao
- Start date
It goes both ways. Why should either party be forced to change in order to appease the other party?
If they used gamings' typical focus testers the fighter would be bald and every other character would have sorceress boobs
Because the actual world shouldn't have to shift to reflect your character. The world of the Souls games, and the characters in them are constant things. Gwynyvere isn't a dumb love interest or something to "solve" with an Ashley/Kaiden swap. She's a character with a place in the lore.
Silly rabbit. Valve doesn't make games.
Seriously though, the focus testing aspect of greenlight is that system's weakest link
spandexmonkey
Banned
Shephard's sex didn't have much of an effect, don't see what makes Gwynyvere so special.
Is there a 1920x1080 version of this? I want it as my wallpaper.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
No you see, the players avatar would be shepard not Qwynyvere. That's like saying make all the female characters in mass effect dudes if you play as a girl. And as Guardian said, Qwyn wasn't a love interest.
Why would you want to change a character's already established identity just to pander to an audience? That type of thinking is backwards as fuck.
That analogy doesn't really work. Shepard is you, and the game is designed around making Shepard into whatever character you want (through choices and skill allocations made throughout the game). The difference is pretty obvious.
It'd be like changing Saren or the Illusive Man into women. There's nothing wrong with it if that was the original intent, but they're established characters in the world and lore that shouldn't have to change based on the molded clay you chose at the beginning of the game.
Devolution
Member
Chet Rippo
Member
Saved by happy boobs!
spandexmonkey
Banned
Wouldn't it be more like changing the strippers at the night club from female to male if you chose a female avatar? Their sex is not important to the lore, so what harm is there? Age of Conan actually did something a little similar with players summoning an incubus or succubus depending on their character's sex.
She looks like she's being suppressed and marginalized. There's no way a woman could possibly wear that of her own free will.
What a disgusting costume.
lol, if you reduce Gwynevere's character to that of a stripper without substance, that's on you, buddy. That's certainly not the developer's intent, nor is it portrayed that way in the game. She's a character, whether you choose to see it or not.
Gender rarely matters in games. Should we just constantly swap gender all the time? It's stupid, and trivializing. I like some consistency in the world, and this goes beyond gender.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Her gender is important to the lore... it makes the whole thing with her brother more significant. If the genders are reversed the whole lore part about them becomes a muddled ass inconstant mess
Umm the incubus thing or succubus thing is way way different I'm sorry.
I'm sorry you think her importance to the story is on par with a stripper in duke nukem
Risk Breaker
Member
I know I'm very late (thank you Neogaf's worst posts) but... Lolicon! LOL.
spandexmonkey
Banned
Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I really don't see any issue with swapping genders periodically for certain characters to make things a bit more equal. I mean I can understand if you have immense reverance for the material and don't want it changed, I just don't share that.
I do.
Character design in the souls series isn't about "equality". Nobody thought about political correctness when designing these characters, and the Souls series certainly isn't particularly lopsided either. And it works both ways. In Demon's Souls, Selen Vinland and Executioner Miralda were absolute badasses that were completely covered up. I would NOT want to see these characters gender swapped into dudes.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Let's change up the lord of the ring books or anything with established lore and see the results!
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Do you approve of that?
For someone who is trumpeting equality, it certainly seems like you're projecting your own ideas about gender roles if so.
You underestimate how much people can care about lore. Especially in science fiction and fantasy settings.
In case you can't figure it out: I'm saying that attitude is pervasive throughout nearly every post you've made here so far.
Gokurakumaru
Banned
Haha. This is amazing.
nailbombxx
Member
I wish Solaire was a female, so we could turn our bromance into a romance.
Pyrrhus
Member
Her being female and voluptuous is actually a part of the plot.
Her brother, the rather frail and repulsive-looking god Gwyndolin, created her as an illusion to trick people, either through a sense of chivalry or lust, into serving her, and thus protect the holy city of Anor Londo in her honor. The real Gwenevere, whatever she looks like, is long gone from Anor Londo.
spandexmonkey
Banned
Is it the assumption that women would want an incubus thats me projecting? If so, my apologies, could have made that a bit more nuanced. If not, what do you mean?
That would actually be fun in my opinion!
You're right, I can see how it would upset people.
You're not playing your part in the moral melodrama and it's my challenging my ability to come out on the side of the angels.
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Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
To me, it looked like the examples you raised were assuming that one gender would be attracted to the opposite gender by default.
i just noticed Jason was chosen. lol
Darkmakaimura
Can You Imagine What SureAI Is Going To Do With Garfield?
That's how I ended up here.
I've caught some of this on "controversy" on Twitter as well. I guess I shouldn't be surprised people (mostly men, it seems) are offended by this. The whole game looks disproportionate and silly. As a (skinny) man, I guess I should be all up in arms about the ridiculously muscled men. Have the past Team Ninja games drew so much attention?
Why can't people express their opinions about something besides buying or not buying? People aren't walking wallets.
Maybe. Maybe not. Artists are allowed to act like they want within the legal boundaries of the society they're in. But whether or not change will happen as a result of criticism doesn't mean that some should stop criticizing. Not that you are claiming this, but some people usually make such a conclusion.
My personal opinion: Display and market the character in question with plenty of agency, establish believable reasons for the design. etc.
But there are better people to answer such a question than me.
People are voicing their criticism. People are saying they would like better representations, because there is plenty of penis-stroking female characters as it is right now. That's all there is to it.
I'm going to group all your posts together because you all echo the same argument.
First of all: I'm not talking about worth the comparison between A and B. I was pointing out that B does not negate the existence of A, which is what Fine Ham Abounds and SolidSnakeX seemed to be saying (jokingly or not). So in that regard, I wasn't ascribing value to either group.
Second of all, just to address the topic of value between the two groups. Group A feels harmed by the existence of the design. Group B is not harmed by the design not existing (or being altered in more respectable ways). Is it really that necessary to have yet another over-sexualized female character primarily aimed to the pleasure of some men?
Not when there seems to be a general problem in mainstream games culture in regards to non-white, non-heterosexual, and female representations.
You're projecting. I'm being pretty mild-mannered right now, I think
And I seem to recall that I've replied to all your posts Zefah. And I think I've identified the larger problem in the gaming industry plenty of times. I would like to refer to my many repetitious posts about the data and arguments for why gaming has a problem in terms of representation of minorities and why media representation matters.
I can understand why people become defensive as an initial reaction when they haven't been made aware of how people different from themselves experience things. It is a problem when some people retain their incorrect position
But I think in general that people take gender-related criticism of privileges way too personal. And I think that much of this "90% of the time" you are referring to, is because people cannot separate person from object. You see the same type of reaction when some posters criticize Game Y and the people who like Game Y become defensive and feel personally offended. This is perhaps just a stronger and more emotional issue, because it's so incredibly personal and has to do with privileges and marginalization and power positions.
I agree. But the specific issue in this thread is pretty muddy, so I could imagine there's a lot of assumptions and baggage being brought into the overall discussion, so misunderstandings come up again and again.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Honestly from a business standpoint. They are.
This is the first I've ever heard of the term. It's a rock I'm content to remain under.
I would feel very concerned if the Sorceress' character design was altered because of social pressure. I place high importance on auteurism, especially in videogaming where such aspirations are dumbed down by market focusing and mass commercialisation. This isn't just your typical fanservice. There is clear artistic vision behind the design of this game and that deserves defending.
I wasn't acquainted with that term myself not so long ago. It's the incorrect usage of the term that I mock especially, when it came from someone who made a mountain out of a molehill.
Don't like the idea of switching the gender of characters to parallel the gender of the player. It cheapens both the characters and the role of gender in the world if they are so readily switched. Dark Souls is filled to the brim with medieval European influences: you can see this in how most of the knights are men, while the women are either firekeepers, pyromancers, priestesses or gods. It shows that the world outside of Lordran is an altogether pretty shitty places to live if you're a woman, tying in with the medieval aesthetic.
If you switch all the major male characters into women and women into men upon the creation of a female avatar, then all you're doing is robbing the game of this little facet of worldbuilding.
It lessens the impact of Gwyndolin and Siegelinde's stories. The first is there to show just how strange and alien the gods are that Gwyn would raise his son as a woman because of some mystical mumble jumbo. The other is a kind of Mulan-like story where a daughter become a warrior to rescue her father.
The game also hints that Gwynevere is Priscilla's mother while Seathe is her father, which is another little tidbit that adds to the theme of dysfunctional pantheons, like the Greek gods.
No, we should leave the parallel gender switching thing to games like Mass Effect and Harvest Moon, where it's more practical and even appropriate. Dark Souls, on the other hand, would be cheapened by it.
If you switch all the major male characters into women and women into men upon the creation of a female avatar, then all you're doing is robbing the game of this little facet of worldbuilding.
It lessens the impact of Gwyndolin and Siegelinde's stories. The first is there to show just how strange and alien the gods are that Gwyn would raise his son as a woman because of some mystical mumble jumbo. The other is a kind of Mulan-like story where a daughter become a warrior to rescue her father.
The game also hints that Gwynevere is Priscilla's mother while Seathe is her father, which is another little tidbit that adds to the theme of dysfunctional pantheons, like the Greek gods.
No, we should leave the parallel gender switching thing to games like Mass Effect and Harvest Moon, where it's more practical and even appropriate. Dark Souls, on the other hand, would be cheapened by it.
I'm surprised. I thought your knowledge into the deep dark corners of the Internet was supreme. I learned so much from GFW Radio
My initial post:
Your reply:
Surely you see the discrepancy between my post and yours? And given the context of what I was talking about, how does that particular reply of yours have anything to do with "attitude" when you are referring to one specific argument of mine? I think you're misunderstanding something or making some illogical jumps.
I say it's the only way because it's the most effective way. People are going to draw whatever they want, regardless of what other people say. Especially when it comes to something as niche as this, it just doesn't matter. I support voicing your opinion though, I just think it's wasted breath.
I guess on the other side of the coin, all of this silly arguing in this undeserving and specific case may trickle into more mainstream and relevant scenarios. Which is a good thing.
No.
radios shipping overview
Member
DOAX threads of old drew arguments on GAF that were just as heated, but the social-justice angle hadn't started getting coverage on gaming blogs at that point.
Some people complained that I didn't reply to them, and when a lot of people subsequently quote or attempt to counter-argue my posts, I thought I was being a really nice person by responding to most, if not all of them. i'll stop it if it annoys people, I just thought I was helping them.
I never said that the argument was the only argument I had been making throughout the thread, so your post didn't make any sense. I was *only* addressing the particular claim made by Fine Ham Abounds and SolidSnakeX. That is just one argument in itself that was completely unrelated to all my previous posts in this thread, but I didn't say that it was "all" I had been saying (which you somehow thought I had)
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Why do you constantly hammer on the point that this particular character is primarily aimed to the pleasure of some men? Why do you claim to know the intent behind this character and where does your confidence come from?
Perhaps Group B would not feel harmed by the design not existing. But it seems to me like your goal is to eliminate anything that may make Group A feel uncomfortable or excluded. What happens when your goal is achieved? There will be nothing for Group B who likes this kind of design. It would then be them who were excluded in a sea of female characters designed to look average and not offend. Where does it stop? How do you strike a balance? Why is your focus on *preventing* designs like this from getting made rather than increasing the amount of designs that appeal to Group A?
Off-topic, you do know that your posting style comes off as extremely arrogant, right? Is that intentional?
Well it's a good thing that this game in particular is about as far away from "mainstream games" as you can get, isn't it?
You recall incorrectly. You've responded to portions of my posts and been rather dismissive in general. I've read all your posts, and I'm telling you that I am having a difficult time getting a crystal clear image of exactly what your argument and goal is. That's why I'm asking you to clarify, in one post, what exactly you think the crux of the issue is and what must be done. All I see is a whole lot of alluding and inferring.
Again... you do realize how arrogant you are coming off, right? You're pretty much saying that the way you think is objective fact and that anyone who disagrees is simply "having a negative reaction after being made aware of new things." Do you really think you're part of some elite sect who knows the truth and the rest of us arguing with you are ignorant to issues that may or may not directly affect ourselves?
To sum it up, I'd like you to get off your "I'm educating you people" high horse, and state in clear words what exactly you think the problem is and what you think needs to be done to rectify it. I don't expect you'll do either, but I'd personally appreciate it.
robotzombie
Member
Hahaha, pizzaroll rules.
Also I can't even imagine how all of you continue to interract with this Lime character. The superiority complex coursing through every post is frankly nauseating. Finishing every post with "I thought you were better than that" because X poster doesn't agree with you just seems offensive.
As for the topic at hand, I would put forth the notion that the Sorceress character design isn't even supposed to be "sexy". I think its very intentionally supposed to be obnoxious in its exaggeration. It almost seems a mockery of common tropes
It is. The same way the Amazon, Dwarf, and Knight are.
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Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Who said that? That's certainly one way of viewing it, especially if you're a straight male who likes to look at women like that. I don't think it's the only way of viewing it, though, nor do I think it's fair to assume what the artist's intent behind the character is.
michaelius
Banned
Sorry i don't care about what some internet warrior thinks about things i enjoy.