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[something fishy]

"Supercharged" is, from what I've gleaned from interviews, what they (Sony) call their architecture - similar to how AMD refers to their plans for unified memory as "hUMA".

And no, a system that is smartly designed to allow for optimal utilization of its resources is not "marketing talk" - high bandwidth RAM is an important component in a console system with a heavy emphasis on GPU processing.



You really shouldn't write about things you know absolutely nothing about. The idea that Sony doesn't have a tangible advantage in this respect is wishful thinking.



Most gaming rigs do contain GDDR5 graphics memory: And, as I wrote earlier, with the coming rise of APUs with an unified memory architecture and the proposed JEDEC GGDR5 SO-DIMM standard, we will see it in use as system memory in the future.

Well thank you. That comp sci degree, post grad and subsequent 20 years in the computing industry count for nothing, my apologies.

Sony would have indeed if we are comparing to what ms are rumoured to have. However I am comparing to pcs as it is called a super charged pc and it simply isn't. There are far more powerful builds out there.

Calling this a super charged pc is marketing talk in my mind. It isn't. It is however an architecture that looks to give them a big advantage in the console space if ms are really going with an underpowered spec. I just wish they didn't need bullshit ship up their fans.

Agree we could well see a unified architecture in our pc's in time if the price gets down and latency is low enough. It would come with future CPU and mobo architectures to exploit it but that bw is still most useful in your gpu so shoving a lot of gddr5 on modern cards is going to go a long way to helping ensure the lack of a unified pool isn't a problem. Faster processors linked to low latency DDR alongside it is still very workable right now.

 

[Ninja Moomin]

Well thank you. That comp sci degree, post grad and subsequent 20 years in the computing industry count for nothing, my apologies.

Sony would have indeed if we are comparing to what ms are rumoured to have. However I am comparing to pcs as it is called a super charged pc and it simply isn't. There are far more powerful builds out there.

Calling this a super charged pc is marketing talk in my mind. It isn't. It is however an architecture that looks to give them a big advantage in the console space if ms are really going with an underpowered spec. I just wish they didn't need bullshit ship up their fans.

Agree we could well see a unified architecture in our pc's in time if the price gets down and latency is low enough. It would come with future CPU and mobo architectures to exploit it but that bw is still most useful in your gpu so shoving a lot of gddr5 on modern cards is going to go a long way to helping ensure the lack of a unified pool isn't a problem. Faster processors linked to low latency DDR alongside it is still very workable right now.

underpowered or slightly less powerful?

 

[something fishy]

Well, it's not really an imaginary problem, or you wouldn't see both Intel and AMD starting to move away from sockets, and towards things like EDRAM daughter dies, or interposers with stacked RAM, both soldered onto motherboards. We've been stuck with some pretty slow dual channel DDR in our PCs for a long time, and the performance of GPUs and CPUs are both outstripping the old interconnects like DIMMs & PCI-E which were designed mostly for modular upgradability and not performance.

Yeah that certainly is true, we are going to see some big architectural changes.

I kind if feel we are at such a high performance level now that we could see diminishing returns but people will adopt in time as eventually this things become the norm.

 

[benny_a]

Calling this a super charged pc is marketing talk in my mind. It isn't. It is however an architecture that looks to give them a big advantage in the console space if ms are really going with an underpowered spec. I just wish they didn't need bullshit ship up their fans.

They called it a "supercharged PC architecture."

The analogy is obvious. It comes from the automotive industry where superchargers exist. And there is no implication that every car that has a supercharger is the fastest car in the world at the point of release.

You don't like the term, but you're deliberately misinterpreting it.

Edit: You edited it to be less aggressive, but the point stands from your initial post on this subject.

 

[something fishy]

No it deliberately. Just tired of it all. Feels like gaming can't resist I but I guess you're right. This is marketing.

 

[iceatcs]

I think "Supercharged PC" is nothing to do with strength, but it meaning more than usual like for example "most effective".

 

[DieH@rd]

I remember someone here said 8GB GDDR5 is overkill, cannot use all the data because GPU is too low.

I'm wondering how they will feel if MS move to GDDR5. I hope they can handle it.

Yes, there is legitimate concern that 12CU GCN GPU cant use more bandwith than in current ESRAM/DDR3 configuration.


In PS4 case, CPU will use ~30-40 GB/s, and the rest will go to the 18CU GCN GPU.

 

[benny_a]

No it deliberately. Just tired of it all. Feels like gaming can't resist I but I guess you're right. This is marketing.

It is a marketing term. Aimed at people like us that discuss specs.
There is nothing bullshit about it though, they've elaborated on what makes it a "supercharged PC architecture."
As previously said: hUMA is also marketing, nothing bullshit about that either.

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

They called it a "supercharged PC architecture."

The analogy is obvious. It comes from the automotive industry where superchargers exist. And there is no implication that every car that has a supercharger is the fastest car in the world at the point of release.

You don't like the term, but you're deliberately misinterpreting it.

Edit: You edited it to be less aggressive, but the point stands from your initial post on this subject.

Yeah. And they're not exactly going to call it a 'mid-ranged PC'. Or 'Mediocre PC architecture' in the presentation. Bit silly to take issue with that.

 

[The Bookerman]

16 GB DDR3 is not better than 8GB GDDR5 if everything else about the system stays the same. It wouldn't be a wise move for MS to increase the factor by two.

Earlier rumors were 4GB GDDR5 in Orbis vs. 8GB DDR3 + 32MB esRAM and people like Timothy Lottes (Now at Epic, previously at Nivida) said he'd prefer the 4GB GDDR5 setup.

Don't buy the hype that the 8GB DDR3 + 32MB esRAM setup is bad. It isn't better than completely unified of PS4 but it's nowhere near as shit as what the PS3 had comparatively.

It's not shit, but clearly, Developpers are gonna have an easier time with the ps4.
Developper friends and I still anticipate the Xbox(Infinity or whatever the name is) to be the baseline for games. I don't have access to specs of the xbox, my good buddy has them but he's too scared to talk(an NDA with Microsoft scares the living shit out of him )

 

[benny_a]

It's not shit, but clearly, Developpers are gonna have an easier time with the ps4.
Developper friends and I still anticipate the Xbox(Infinity or whatever the name is) to be the baseline for games.

I think it would be great if Durango was as close to the PS4 as possible, assuming PS4 is the more powerful console. (My real dream is that 2.5 TFlops would have been the baseline, but seems energy wise and thermally that might not be feasible at the moment.)

The higher the baseline the better for everyone on here that isn't a publisher. But I'm only looking at the perspective that this upcoming console generation will proceed with the trend of every console generation being bigger than the last and specs are not the driving factor of adoption.

 

[dragonelite]

I think it would be great if Durango was as close to the PS4 as possible, assuming PS4 is the more powerful console. (My real dream is that 2.5 TFlops would have been the baseline, but seems energy wise and thermally that might not be feasible at the moment.)

The higher the baseline the better for everyone on here that isn't a publisher. But I'm only looking at the perspective that this upcoming console generation will proceed with the trend of every console generation being bigger than the last and specs are not the driving factor of adoption.

Why wouldn't a publisher be happy with more performance.
A lot of studio that stream lined their asset pipeline this gen say they have little production cost increases. Given more power they can have a lot more stuff real time and graphics are the first thing that blows away consumers. From a marketing point of view there is a reason we have bullshots.

 

[benny_a]

Why wouldn't a publisher be happy with more performance.
A lot of studio that stream lined their asset pipeline this gen say they have little production cost increases. Given more power they can have a lot more stuff real time and graphics are the first thing that blows away consumers. From a marketing point of view there is a reason we have bullshots.

Because more power comes at a price. The higher the price of a device the less publishers like it. Ubisoft and Activision both publicly stated that the price of consoles are too high and the price should be dropped.

I'm using the assumption that MS and Sony both don't want to subsidize the cost of their consoles as heavily as last time.

 

[specialguy]

Developers/pubs are all over the map. On one hand they like to cry poverty over increasing dev costs, on the other they started whining like crazy for more power late in this gen. Which is it?

 

[cchum]

Developers/pubs are all over the map. On one hand they like to cry poverty over increasing dev costs, on the other they started whining like crazy for more power late in this gen. Which is it?

Engine builders and those with proprietary engines want higher power due to creating barriers to entry, and increased power distance betweens pubs and devs. It is the smaller or less stable devs that are suffering. It's an interesting dichotomy.

 

[specialguy]

It wasn't all engine builders though,. I think ubisoft and others like to talk about how creativity spikes with a new generation at least.

 

[Respawn]

Because more power comes at a price. The higher the price of a device the less publishers like it. Ubisoft and Activision both publicly stated that the price of consoles are too high and the price should be dropped.

I'm using the assumption that MS and Sony both don't want to subsidize the cost of their consoles as heavily as last time.

Well let me chime in on saying their games are to f'ing high. DLC is abused and is to f'ing high.
If you're into gaming we ultimately have to deal with the price (yes $599 was absurd) or get out of the hobby. I donot like to spend my money on something that will not perform up to par because someone cannot afford another $100. So many ridiculous cries about pricing but yet here we are.

 

[travisbickle]

The 2 console are very close to each other architecturally, if we believe the leaks.

You can't expect 2 console built by different companies over 3-4 years to be the same.

I'm sure developers are happy with the similarities of the 2, as for the differences? there was always going to be 1 'winner' in the power stakes.

 

[RetroStu]

Where have you heard this?!?!

It sounds like A Sony fan using the old rumours and saying he's 'heard' the same from a 'developer' to make it look like its true of he's 'itk' lol.
Microsoft are going to suprise everyone, just you wait.

 

[benny_a]

It sounds like A Sony fan using the old rumours and saying he's 'heard' the same from a 'developer' to make it look like its true of he's 'itk' lol.
Microsoft are going to suprise everyone, just you wait.

Yes, specialguy is known around here as the biggest Sony enthusiast.

 

[Brad Grenz]

The 2 core, 2-3GB reserve for Durango has been a fairly persistent rumor from multiple sources going back to the beginning of the year. But sure, he's the fan boy, not the people with the blind faith in a miraculous upgrade...

 

[RetroStu]

Yes, specialguy is known around here as the biggest Sony enthusiast.

The way i look at it is that there are games still from this generation that still look great and impressive imo and the 720 has 16 times the ram 16!, people are worrying over nothing imo, next gen games will look great regardless of what type of ram they have.

 

[EvB]

The way i look at it is that there are games still from this generation that still look great and impressive imo and the 720 has 16 times the ram 16!, people are worrying over nothing imo, next gen games will lok great regardless of what type of ram they have.

Indeed, and when it comes to the multiplatform games, which make up about 90% of the games that we play, then the ram will make no difference. There has been a tiny handful of games that have suffered due to one console's hardware limitations compared to the other.

Developers can't and won't allow for one platform to be perceivably better than the other, both Sony and Microsoft make sure of that.

 

[benny_a]

Developers can't and won't allow for one platform to be perceivably better than the other, both Sony and Microsoft make sure of that.

Why not? SEGA has done it with Bayonetta. Bethesda has done it with Fallout 3. Capcom has done it in Lost Planet. Valve has done it with Orange Box. Square Enix with Final Fantasy 13. Activision with Call of Duty Black Ops 2. Konami has done it with PES 2008. Take-Two with BioShock.

And that's just using one example per publisher, with the most egregious ones I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[twobear]

I think it would be fair to say that they won't put out a substandard release if they consider making it up to standard a worthwhile investment.

Since Durango doesn't present anything like the same headache for development as mid to early PS3 life cycle development did, we're not going to see any PS3 Bayonetta style shenanigans this generation.

 

[quickwhips]

Why not? SEGA has done it with Bayonetta. Bethesda has done it with Fallout 3. Capcom has done it in Lost Planet. Valve has done it with Orange Box. Square Enix with Final Fantasy 13. Activision with Call of Duty Black Ops 2. Konami has done it with PES 2008. Take-Two with BioShock.

And that's just using one example per publisher, with the most egregious ones I can think of off the top of my head.

The learning curve or the move add support for another console is the only reason most of thoes games don't look identical.

 

[benny_a]

The learning curve or the move add support for another console is the only reason most of thoes games don't look identical.

Call of Duty Black Ops 2 is latest release in the Call of Duty franchise of which 8 out of 9 released games were on current gen consoles.

I think it would be fair to say that they won't put out a substandard release if they consider making it up to standard a worthwhile investment.

Since Durango doesn't present anything like the same headache for development as mid to early PS3 life cycle development did, we're not going to see any PS3 Bayonetta style shenanigans this generation.

If it turns out that one platform has a noticeable advantage, it will be used by developers. Blu-ray on PS3 meant almost every release had better audio. And some releases had higher quality FMV.

 

[jaypah]

Wow @ this thread, lol! After reading the last 3 pages I literally forgot what thread I had even clicked on. The war...it is starting.

 

[Baconsammy]

I remember someone here said 8GB GDDR5 is overkill, cannot use all the data because GPU is too low.

I'm wondering how they will feel if MS move to GDDR5. I hope they can handle it.

You wouldn't hear them over the sound of goalposts moving.

 

[MaulerX]

The 2 core, 2-3GB reserve for Durango has been a fairly persistent rumor from multiple sources going back to the beginning of the year. But sure, he's the fan boy, not the people with the blind faith in a miraculous upgrade...

Wasn't "always on", "online required", "no used games" a fairly consistent rumor with multiple sources? We all know how that turned out.

 

[Rebel Leader]

Wow @ this thread, lol! After reading the last 3 pages I literally forgot what thread I had even clicked on. The war...it is starting.

The war had already begun before it begins

 

[Ramblin]

Wow @ this thread, lol! After reading the last 3 pages I literally forgot what thread I had even clicked on. The war...it is starting.

Shhh don't bring attention to it, just read and enjoy!

 

[benny_a]

You wouldn't hear them over the sound of goalposts moving.

I read a lot of remarks about "crow will be eaten" "goalposts will be moved".

Am I right under the assumption that the people writing that stuff expect that 8GB GDDR5 will be found in Durango? Or is this just something one can say within the comfort of not making any claims themselves?

The people in the "there will not be more than 2GB RAM in the PS4" thread at least made some claims that could be evaluated.

 

[Baconsammy]

I read a lot of remarks about "crow will be eaten" "goalposts will be moved".

Am I right under the assumption that the people writing that stuff expect that 8GB GDDR5 will be found in Durango? Or is this just something one can say within the comfort of not making any claims?

I can't speak for anyone else. My response was about the make believe world in which 8GB GDDR5 is something in both consoles. An in case I was being too obtuse and you missed my point, I'm saying that the people who currently claim memory type is a big deal will stop giving a shit about memory if both consoles have the same kind and amount, and they'd move on to something else to pretend that their corporation of choice is better than someone else's corporation of choice.

 

[benny_a]

I can't speak for anyone else. My response was about the make believe world in which 8GB GDDR5 is something in both consoles. An in case I was being too obtuse and you missed my point, I'm saying that the people who currently claim memory type is a big deal will stop giving a shit about memory if both consoles have the same kind and amount, and they'd move on to something else to pretend that their corporation of choice is better than someone else's corporation of choice.

Are there people that ignore the much bigger difference in GPU and CPU difference based on the rumors?

I haven't kept up but GPU and CPU difference (reserved for Kinect) was debated a lot back before the PS4 was revealed.

Fucking hell, still with the specs. When will you guys learn?

When publishers finally reveal fucking gameplay of these fucking next-gen games. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

 

[Satchel]

Fucking hell, still with the specs. When will you guys learn?

 

[Bleedorang3]

In before someone tries to say that hardcore gaming is a mass market!

Oh, the games will be there...at first. Just like with the 360. But Microsoft has a history of abandoning gamers. They'll sucker in the hardcore with some moneyhats and some legitimately cool in house titles and then their strategy will shift dramatically from that. It's their history. Look at how Microsoft gave up on the Xbox after the 360 launched. Look at their software releases after they released Kinect.

Fuck I missed it.

Last Gen taught everyone that Hardcore Gamers alone are not able to sustain the massive costs that go into development of the console and games. You have to entice non-core gamers to spend money in the ecosystem. Nintendo and Microsoft did this beautifully, with the Wii and Kinect. Sony is playing catchup on this front, that's why you see them with their own 'me too' motion control devices.

Make no mistake. Microsoft is trying to own everyone's living room this Gen. Not just 'hardcore gamers'.

 

[PopcornMegaphone]

Make no mistake. Microsoft is trying to own everyone's living room this Gen. Not just 'hardcore gamers'.

This is true for Sony as well.

There isn't really much of a difference between MS and Sony's strategies.

 

[Baconsammy]

Are there people that ignore the much bigger difference in GPU and CPU difference based on the rumors?

No idea. I tend to skip over the posts that involve people comparing specs as if they matter. I guess it makes for good forum conversation/debate, but it means nothing in the real world. Content sells. Specs dont.

I was just about to make joke about the Wii U but then I realised it actually is lacking both of the above. Poor console.

Yep. And Nintendo also proved that a Name on a box won't sell a console, regardless of how successful the previous iteration was.

 

[Mario007]

No idea. I tend to skip over the posts that involve people comparing specs as if they matter. I guess it makes for good forum conversation/debate, but it means nothing in the real world. Content sells. Specs dont.

I was just about to make joke about the Wii U but then I realised it actually is lacking both of the above. Poor console.

 

[neptunes]

Oh, the games will be there...at first. Just like with the 360. But Microsoft has a history of abandoning gamers. They'll sucker in the hardcore with some moneyhats and some legitimately cool in house titles and then their strategy will shift dramatically from that. It's their history. Look at how Microsoft gave up on the Xbox after the 360 launched. Look at their software releases after they released Kinect.

Isn't that Normal? The same could be applied to Sony back from last gen.

It's only natural that the HW vendors will shift focus to the casuals later on in hardware cycle. it's a segment of the market that hasn't been tapped yet.

Beginning of Gen = Push to Core Gamers
Middle to late Gen = Push to the masses (Price cuts, Bundles, etc...)

Right now any perceived difference between the two is purely the effect of marketing, their objective is pretty much the same.

 

[abadguy]

So we are still at the "XBOX 1.5" stage i see. Cool.

 

[Baconsammy]

So we are still at the "XBOX 1.5" stage i see. Cool.

2.5 now. Keep up.

 

[Uno Venova]

Isn't that Normal? The same could be applied to Sony back from last gen.

It's only natural that the HW vendors will shift focus to the casuals later on in hardware cycle. it's a segment of the market that hasn't been tapped yet.

Beginning of Gen = Push to Core Gamers
Middle to late Gen = Push to the masses (Price cuts, Bundles, etc...)

I would say the past playstation consoles including PS3 have done a good job of having new quality Ips throughout the cycle until the end and not just the first half of the generation.

 

[clutch.as.it.gets.]

So, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm trying to resume. Basically, MS which is in a better position of sony after ps3, will propose 7790 GPU vs 8870 ps4 gpu, 8 RAM of ddr3 vs gddr5 & it seems with a more expensive base price (I'm trying to extrapolate the rumours.). Thanks to kinect success eh. I don't know what will happen to the event, but time ago would been hard to believe that company would have propose a console with those specs.

Don Matrrick happened.

 

[Baconsammy]

Don Matrrick happened.

Yep, and they've been the number once console in the US for 2+ years straight since. If the goal was to fulfill the illogical wishes of gaming forum posters, he failed. If it's to run a successful business and produce yearly profits, he's doing pretty good.

 

[neptunes]

Can't really output any first party games when you don't have any first party studios.

Rare making kinect stuff doesn't count.

Microsoft was consistent with the OG Xbox, even after they cut it's life short.

but like back then, they also relied on third-party partnerships, which probably ends up cheaper for them.

 

[Melchiah]

Yeah, it's going to be really interesting how this plays out if the Durango OS is going to use more RAM/cores. On one hand, that would be great for the games as they have more resources, but on the other hand, if MS is using that much RAM, then they're hopefully going to have one hell of an OS, and Sony's OS could be lacking in features by comparison (and by setting the bar at 1GB from the start, Sony will have trouble if they wanted to add more to their OS, whereas MS has the option of slimming down the OS memory potentially). It's definitely a balancing game.

Considering that the PS3 and 360 used 30-50MB for the OS, I'm not worried about 1GB being the limit.

 

[Impeccable]

10 Days, get hype.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Yep, and they've been the number once console in the US for 2+ years straight since. If the goal was to fulfill the illogical wishes of gaming forum posters, he failed. If it's to run a successful business and produce yearly profits, he's doing pretty good.

This.