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[travisbickle]

I somewhat don't get the surprise here.

Do people think there aren't posters on places like reddit, GAF, and other forums who are affiliated with big companies like Sony, MS, Nintendo, EA, etc.?

What those people say and do is another matter, but there have to be people at these companies who aren't so out of touch and actually read what people are saying in popular sites.

It's more about advertising agencies that provide companies with forum dwellers to counteract/drown out any negative information about said company.

 

[George Claw M.D.]

...On that note, I find it annoying that we have to deal with a batch of new members just a few days before E3. This kind of situation doesn't help obviously but I'm also concerned about the server load during E3 conferences.

I think the servers would crash regardless if all these juniors were admitted or not. It's gone down during Sony's and MS's reveals, and E3's only gonna be worse. On the flip side, this is the best time of the year for a new member's account to be approved. If I had been lurking GAF for a while, eagerly waiting for my account to be approved, it would suck getting activated after E3 is already over and most of the discussion and shared excitement had already taken place. And regarding potential astroturfers being in the mix, E3 is also an opportune time to cull a large portion of idiotic/astroturfing juniors fresh out of the womb. It's like shooting fish in a barrel for the mods.

 

[Averon]

I don't have a problem with people affiliated with big companies being on web forums. People have jobs, that's life. People paid to market a product while hiding their affiliation is something I find much more questionable.

Exactly. Plenty of industry people post on NeoGAF just fine. People from Naughty Dog, Insomniac, Sony, Bungie, and others I'm forgetting have posted here/is posting here in one time or another. Industry people who hide their affiliation and cheer lead for their company/product is what will get our ire and an eventual ban. For example, a user call GlassBox, I believe, was a very enthusiastic poster of Sim City. Later it was found out that GlassBox was an employee of Maxis, the developer of Sim City, and his username was the name of the engine that powered Sim City. He purposely hid that affiliation from us, and he was quickly banned after than came to light.

If you're an industry people, you're more than welcome to join in on the conversation with NeoGAF. In fact, we want you to join the conversation. More interaction between the people working in the industry and us consumers can be nothing but a good thing. Just don't be sneaky about it. As long as you make your affiliation clear, there's no problem.

 

[Nome]

you're kinda hopping on the bandwagon as well, no? i mean no where in that article does it even refute the original poster, it's entire foundation rests on someone who "chimed in". that's suspicious as hell.

i mean i don't need someone to tell me it's happening. it's obvious. it's been happening all around us for the last decade. i've caught companies doing it all over the time, just never have i found an outlet to talk about it. for someone like microsoft, getting ready to release "always online" console, keeping their reputation managed online is just so obvious. they're not putting their shareholders first if they don't do it

Refute? It's impossible to refute. This is the double standard here (and perhaps rightfully so). The original poster gave ZERO proof--it was a firsthand account from an anonymous poster who gave no evidence apart from a few words. You can't prove that it doesn't happen--Microsoft came out and said they didn't do it, which normally would be proof, but hey, no one listens. It's only possible to prove that they DO it, and so far, there's been NOTHING to that effect.

Exactly. Plenty of industry people post on NeoGAF just fine. People from Naughty Dog, Insomniac, Sony, Bungie, and others I'm forgetting have posted here/is posting here in one time or another. Industry people who hide their affiliation and cheer lead for their company/product is what will get our ire and an eventual ban. For example, a user call GlassBox, I believe, was a very enthusiastic poster of Sim City. Later it was found out that GlassBox was an employee of Maxis, the developer of Sim City, and his username was the name of the engine that powered Sim City. He purposely hid that affiliation from us, and he was quickly banned after than came to light.

If you're an industry people, you're more than welcome to join in on the conversation with NeoGAF. In fact, we want you to join the conversation. More interaction between the people working in the industry and us consumers can be nothing but a good thing. Just don't be sneaky about it. As long as you make your affiliation clear, there's no problem.

And this prevailing train of thought is why I find myself commenting on GAF less and less.

So I can't give my honest opinion without first disclosing where I work? I usually do when commenting on something related to my job out of consideration, and most of the people here who know me know my professional background (for the purposes of this thread, it has nothing to do with console gaming), but I still find it ridiculous that GAF puts out a witchhunt over someone who doesn't. A lot of people choose to work somewhere specifically BECAUSE they feel passionate about the product. Whether or not they decide to disclose that fact is a matter of privacy. Given the huge backlash against Sim City I highly doubt Glassbox wanted to "out himself", especially if he's not authorized to do PR.

This is why a lot of the industry is "afraid" of GAF, really. It's so easy to turn something positive or innocuous into something harmful.

 

[web01]

Exactly. Plenty of industry people post on NeoGAF just fine. People from Naughty Dog, Insomniac, Sony, Bungie, and others I'm forgetting have posted here/is posting here in one time or another. Industry people who hide their affiliation and cheer lead for their company/product is what will get our ire and an eventual ban. For example, a user call GlassBox, I believe, was a very enthusiastic poster of Sim City. Later it was found out that GlassBox was an employee of Maxis, the developer of Sim City, and his username was the name of the engine that powered Sim City. He purposely hid that affiliation from us, and he was quickly banned after than came to light.

If you're an industry people, you're more than welcome to join in on the conversation with NeoGAF. In fact, we want you to join the conversation. More interaction between the people working in the industry and us consumers can be nothing but a good thing. Just don't be sneaky about it. As long as you make your affiliation clear, there's no problem.

Alot of developers come here to post damage control when something is broken in a game, saying its going get patched, we are working on it etc.
And not always is it delivered and sometimes they lie outright or do not deliver on promises. The rest of the time you have people sucking up their ass because of they work for a certain company. I think for the most part it is better if they stay anonymous.

 

[acm2000]

this is something all companies do, its nothing new

 

[benny_a]

My interpretation of this thread was more that this is occuring on GAF (which we've had confirmation before that this is what is happening before this ever was a topic on reddit) and the reddit stuff was just the starting point to discuss that astroturfing is an actual thing that is happening right now on various sites we frequent.

I agree with questioning or even outright dismissing the reddit post as it is presented.

As Christopher Hitchens said: "That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."

It's not like that reddit poster had a history of giving truthful insider information, so there was nothing to go on but the story itself. Which has been pointed out in this thread being quite strange as reputation management isn't usually done on-site.

 

[SneakyStephan]

Refute? It's impossible to refute. This is the double standard here (and perhaps rightfully so). The original poster gave ZERO proof--it was a firsthand account from an anonymous poster who gave no evidence apart from a few words. You can't prove that it doesn't happen--Microsoft came out and said they didn't do it, which normally would be proof, but hey, no one listens. It's only possible to prove that they DO it, and so far, there's been NOTHING to that effect.


And this prevailing train of thought is why I find myself commenting on GAF less and less.

So I can't give my honest opinion without first disclosing where I work? I usually do when commenting on something related to my job out of consideration, and most of the people here who know me know my professional background (for the purposes of this thread, it has nothing to do with console gaming), but I still find it ridiculous that GAF puts out a witchhunt over someone who doesn't. A lot of people choose to work somewhere specifically BECAUSE they feel passionate about the product. Whether or not they decide to disclose that fact is a matter of privacy. Given the huge backlash against Sim City I highly doubt Glassbox wanted to "out himself", especially if he's not authorized to do PR.

This is why a lot of the industry is "afraid" of GAF, really. It's so easy to turn something positive or innocuous into something harmful.

Oh poor baby.
Won't someone please think of the developers/PR monkeys

We shouldn't be worried about silly things like being able to trust other people's opinions and discussion to be unbiased and genuine when it means inconveniencing you.

 

[Darryl]

Refute? It's impossible to refute. This is the double standard here (and perhaps rightfully so). The original poster gave ZERO proof--it was a firsthand account from an anonymous poster who gave no evidence apart from a few words. You can't prove that it doesn't happen--Microsoft came out and said they didn't do it, which normally would be proof, but hey, no one listens. It's only possible to prove that they DO it, and so far, there's been NOTHING to that effect.

i don't really know what you're expecting here. the only way to get the information out on a subject like this would be through leaked anonymous sources or catchin' them in the act (which like that image above, will never be hard evidence).

 

[Usobuko]

If you look at the flip side, if astroturfing is unsuccessful at GAF the next thing in line would be to slander GAF as a forum on other mainstream outlets.

 

[artist]

If you look at the flip side, if astroturfing is unsuccessful at GAF the next thing in line would be to slander GAF as a forum on other mainstream outlets.

That is already happening.

 

[lockload]

Let's reiterate that last bit there. The original allegations that Microsoft was engaged in manipulating this community did not come with any proof and the person who chimed in to back up those allegations (see point #2 in this list) has been proven false.

When you add all this up, what do we get? 36. Also, the inevitable conclusion: /r/gaming, we have been trolled. A zero-day account showed up with a lot of claims and no proof, but knew all the right things to say to rile up the community in their revulsion for both the XBox One and corporate interference in our free community. The post was explicitly designed to trigger rage at heavy-handed and Orwellian tactics, and it did exactly that.

The bold is not mine its from the post

http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/1fyjgr/regarding_xbox_one_and_allegations_of_voterigging/

My only comment is i think the OP should have done at least an initial look at the user who posted, the account was created less than a day ago even though the post claimed that had been a regular redditor

This seems to be the new neogf 0 proof or even common sense required to tar a feather

 

[Terra]

If you look at the flip side, if astroturfing is unsuccessful at GAF the next thing in line would be to slander GAF as a forum on other mainstream outlets.

That is already happening.

Yep it is. And people are also trying to diminish the weight and influence that Neogaf actually carries when it comes to gaming.

 

[Wolves Evolve]

Reddit can say whatever they like. It happens and we know it happens because it is a common, mainstream industry. There are people who have jobs.

What's false is this one story.

It still happens and we have caught people here many times.

 

[Liberty4all]

Yep it is. And people are also trying to diminish the weight and influence that Neogaf actually carries when it comes to gaming.

Let them try.

 

[Perkel]

Refute? It's impossible to refute. This is the double standard here (and perhaps rightfully so). The original poster gave ZERO proof--it was a firsthand account from an anonymous poster who gave no evidence apart from a few words. You can't prove that it doesn't happen--Microsoft came out and said they didn't do it, which normally would be proof, but hey, no one listens. It's only possible to prove that they DO it, and so far, there's been NOTHING to that effect.

And this prevailing train of thought is why I find myself commenting on GAF less and less.

Sorry but we have proof of that. We have banned people here who used PR company mails and did damage control on own boards here. Those PR companies do not do something like that for free. They are being paid to do that. By looking at what was part of their work on NeoGaf we will know for whom they were working. Ton of PR shills defended MS fuckup ergo MS is doing exactly what that poster said.

We even had Che community manager for Forza trolling GT forums few years ago.

Which means MS employees outside or inside of MS were paid to be shills and go to forums doing fake PR for their employer.
I don't need to listen what MS will say. Because we know they paid for dudes going to forums and various boards.
MS already was caught numerous times on things like that and it is not their first time and last time. Same with Sony or any other bigger company.

If you want to talk with shills which are paid to have an opinion then you are welcome to do so but keep other people out of this and don't complain where your paid friends are banned here.

So I can't give my honest opinion without first disclosing where I work? I usually do when commenting on something related to my job out of consideration, and most of the people here who know me know my professional background (for the purposes of this thread, it has nothing to do with console gaming), but I still find it ridiculous that GAF puts out a witchhunt over someone who doesn't. A lot of people choose to work somewhere specifically BECAUSE they feel passionate about the product. Whether or not they decide to disclose that fact is a matter of privacy. Given the huge backlash against Sim City I highly doubt Glassbox wanted to "out himself", especially if he's not authorized to do PR.

This is why a lot of the industry is "afraid" of GAF, really. It's so easy to turn something positive or innocuous into something harmful.

Industry afraid of GAF because GAF is not place when you can just run PR campaign and where people read things between lines. Just few last days we had ton of proven shills working and doing damage control of MS fuckup. If you have nothing to hide then you don't need to fear GAF. SimCity fiasco was not community but developers/publishers fuckup. Because they made decision that SimCity needs DRM.

If you are someone with your own opinion everything is good. But if you get paid for it or you are trying to defend your own product under false claim that you are just another random user, what most of people will think of you is "Fuck you". Because it is all what you can say about practices like that. As someone involved in actual target of thread you supposed to be informer not someone with opinion. If community thinks "this is bad" you can't say community is bad. This is "doctors can't operate on own family" ethic. Because no matter how you present your own opinion people will think you are biased.

Glassbox wasn't banned because he was dev. He was banned because he was dev defending his product under claim he is just like any other dude out there. He wasn't and he was shill by doing that. Being dev does not mean you can't be shill and communities don't need people who are shills.

 

[Averon]

And this prevailing train of thought is why I find myself commenting on GAF less and less.

So I can't give my honest opinion without first disclosing where I work? I usually do when commenting on something related to my job out of consideration, and most of the people here who know me know my professional background (for the purposes of this thread, it has nothing to do with console gaming), but I still find it ridiculous that GAF puts out a witchhunt over someone who doesn't. A lot of people choose to work somewhere specifically BECAUSE they feel passionate about the product. Whether or not they decide to disclose that fact is a matter of privacy. Given the huge backlash against Sim City I highly doubt Glassbox wanted to "out himself", especially if he's not authorized to do PR.

This is why a lot of the industry is "afraid" of GAF, really. It's so easy to turn something positive or innocuous into something harmful.

Blatant cheer leading for your company/product without disclosing that you work for/work on said company/product comes off as being dishonest, and it make others feel like they're being manipulated/jerked around. This should be obvious. Full disclosure is enforced here to make sure we can have honest discussions without the fear that said discussions are being manufactured or "massaged" to lean a certain way.

Glassbox was banned because his entire tenure here was disingenuous and dishonest. He tried to come off as being just another GAFer interested in SimCity when in fact he was working for the very developer that made the game. He was shilling the game hard here, and he purposely hid his connection to Sim City help influence NeoGAF's overall opinion of the game. That's sleazy, and it should be obvious why such activity is ban-worthy.

 

[CaptainSlow]

Honestly, almost every large business does it, so it shouldn't be suprising.

When I worked as a student worker in my university's IT department, they had a Social Media Manager to make positive posts on the colleges Facebook page, Twitter and other education websites. It was stuff like "the campus is so beautiful!" or "I can't wait to attend next fall!"

It was fun trying to see them react to the college confessions page that was getting popular last school year. They even made a compliments page to try and get people to post more "uplifting and inspiring content." it seemed Ali y when they did it but if everyone's doing if, you might as well join in on it.

 

[Nome]

i don't really know what you're expecting here. the only way to get the information out on a subject like this would be through leaked anonymous sources or catchin' them in the act (which like that image above, will never be hard evidence).

A Reddit post holds as much weight as a 4chan post. Anonymous tips to established gaming news sites would be more credible, or even firsthand/secondhand accounts from Gaffers.

Oh poor baby.
Won't someone please think of the developers/PR monkeys

We shouldn't be worried about silly things like being able to trust other people's opinions and discussion to be unbiased and genuine when it means inconveniencing you.

It's not about being inconvenienced--it's about discouraging developer participation in the community. It's the same reason Reddit's AMAs have turned into a full-on marketing tool. You won't find genuine communications there anymore. "Hi, I'm Hollywood Actor, whose movie is coincidentally premiering this Friday. AMAA!"

Sorry but we have proof of that. We have banned people here who used PR company mails and did damage control on own boards here. Those PR companies do not do something like that for free. They are being paid to do that. By looking at what was part of their work on NeoGaf we will know for whom they were working. Ton of PR shills defended MS fuckup ergo MS is doing exactly what that poster said.

We even had Che community manager for Forza trolling GT forums few years ago.

Which means MS employees outside or inside of MS were paid to be shills and go to forums doing fake PR for their employer.
I don't need to listen what MS will say. Because we know they paid for dudes going to forums and various boards.
MS already was caught numerous times on things like that and it is not their first time and last time. Same with Sony or any other bigger company.

If you want to talk with shills which are paid to have an opinion then you are welcome to do so but keep other people out of this and don't complain where your paid friends are banned here.



Industry afraid of GAF because GAF is not place when you can just run PR campaign and where people read things between lines. Just few last days we had ton of proven shills working and doing damage control of MS fuckup. If you have nothing to hide then you don't need to fear GAF. SimCity fiasco was not community but developers/publishers fuckup. Because they made decision that SimCity needs DRM.

If you are someone with your own opinion everything is good. But if you get paid for it or you are trying to defend your own product under false claim that you are just another random user, what most of people will think of you is "Fuck you". Because it is all what you can say about practices like that. As someone involved in actual target of thread you supposed to be informer not someone with opinion. If community thinks "this is bad" you can't say community is bad. This is "doctors can't operate on own family" ethic. Because no matter how you present your own opinion people will think you are biased.

Glassbox wasn't banned because he was dev. He was banned because he was dev defending his product under claim he is just like any other dude out there. He wasn't and he was shill by doing that. Being dev does not mean you can't be shill and communities don't need people who are shills.

I'm not disputing the existence of shills. My original post was specifically about the incident posted in the OP, which caused huge shockwaves across the Reddit gaming community. Also, you (and a lot of people, not just in the gaming community, but across all product communities) are confusing a "paid" PR shill for a company enthusiast, or sometimes just a fanboy. I post on Sherdog (MMA community) a lot, and there's the idea that the UFC employs a lot of paid posters. The actual fact is that there's a lot of fanboys, and once in a while, an employee-enthusiast who has a lot of free time. "Paid posting" and "paid shills" are rather minor occurrences across the industry; incidental and enthusiast shills are not. I don't think Glassbox was a paid shill, for example--he wouldn't name himself Glassbox if he were trying to keep it 100% on the down low. Some companies may make it a directive to hire a PR firm to shill, or they may actually tell their employees to do it. From my experience and understanding, most do not. Most don't need to GAF and Reddit both place high value on the idea of being genuine though, so it's understandable why there's backlash.

Blatant cheer leading for your company/product without disclosing that you work for/work on said company/product comes off as being dishonest, and it make others feel like they're being manipulated/jerked around. This should be obvious. Full disclosure is enforced here to make sure we can have honest discussions without the fear that said discussions aren't manufactured or "massaged" to lean it a certain way.

Right, and the unfortunate outcome is that in the case of a poorly received product, generally it's impossible for the dev to actually post anything and receive a positive outcome. Generally that seems to be the rule nowadays; if your product is already well-received, you can interact with the community to increase good will. But if it's not, you'd better keep your mouth shut. It's reminiscent of the Sim City AMA on Reddit; once the subject of DRM came up, it rendered all other subjects moot. I don't work in PR, but I'd imagine that was a case study for most in the industry on whether direct communications are appropriate.

 

[dejay]

I get what Nome is saying. My company has a reasonably strict social media policy, but that doesn't preclude us from posting positive stories about our company if we want to. Saying that I never do personally - I don't hang around forums associated with my industry (recreational marine and off road products) and don't want to talk about my company's products, even if they are nice toys.

We even had Che community manager for Forza trolling GT forums few years ago.

Which means MS employees outside or inside of MS were paid to be shills and go to forums doing fake PR for their employer.

Che wasn't a shill, he clearly identified himself. He was, however, bad at his job and unprofessional and basically too immature to represent a company.

I have no doubt there are, were, and will be shills for different companies here at GAF. What I don't like is being lumped together with them just because I happen to share one or two views that a lot of GAF doesn't agree with. That's the trouble with witch hunts - people get paranoid and start seeing the enemy everywhere.

 

[Perkel]

"Paid posting" and "paid shills" are rather minor occurrences across the industry;

GAF is closed community where you need to wait months to get account here and yet in that infamous MS thread bans were given one after another and almost every new page contained banned juniors that started being alive just before or after MS fuckup.

My point is: If closed community have shills on almost every page in that thread then imagine what is happening on open forum when you can create account in 2 minutes.

Shills are not "minor occurrences" Shills are standard of industry and not even for gaming.

Did you hear about iOS reviews/buys shills ? book review shills ? That is part of industry which is constantly growing.

 

[SneakyStephan]

GAF is closed community where you need to wait months to get account here and yet in that infamous MS thread bans were given one after another and almost every new page contained banned juniors that started being alive just before or after MS fuckup.

My point is: If closed community have shills on almost every page in that thread then imagine what is happening on open forum when you can create account in 2 minutes.

Shills are not "minor occurrences" Shills are standard of industry and not even for gaming.

Did you hear about iOS reviews/buys shills ? book review shills ? That is part of industry which is constantly growing.

+ plants in audiences cheering and whistling at unveilings
+ (someone with good google fu will have to find the source for this one as I'm about to give a very general description since it's been like 2 years) some time ago there were paid actors in the crowd of a public unveiling of a new product/service , they were paid to approach the local news reporters when they came in to gauge public opinion and act like hyped and enthusiastic consumers.

Western capitalism really is broken beyond words, it's no longer about quality or productivity or competition, it's only about the bottom line and the perception needed to get there. It's all so pointless and meaningless.
Succeeding in convincing more people to buy a bad product is cheered for more than a good product having less success.
Just look at all the people cheerleading for the wii and kinect as soon as the sales started picking up for those, just... misguided is what people are now, totally lost the plot.

Going through the motions without understanding why.

 

[Telepathy]

Its just part of a wider company culture at ms. Where the Xbox division is definitly the worst and least humble.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

As mentioned above, reddit is claiming they were trolled. I'll be honest, I actually believed MS were monitoring reddit, so the news of this being a troll is pretty surprising. That's not to say they probably aren't monitoring reddit and many other sites.

Anyway, this can't be good for reddit's image. That's two instances where they've made or supported some pretty outlandish claims only to have them completely backfire.

 

[Alucrid]

+ plants in audiences cheering and whistling at unveilings
+ (someone with good google fu will have to find the source for this one as I'm about to give a very general description since it's been like 2 years) some time ago there were paid actors in the crowd of a public unveiling of a new product/service , they were paid to approach the local news reporters when they came in to gauge public opinion and act like hyped and enthusiastic consumers.

Western capitalism really is broken beyond words, it's no longer about quality or productivity or competition, it's only about the bottom line and the perception needed to get there. It's all so pointless and meaningless.
Succeeding in convincing more people to buy a bad product is cheered for more than a good product having less success.
Just look at all the people cheerleading for the wii and kinect as soon as the sales started picking up for those, just... misguided is what people are now, totally lost the plot.

Going through the motions without understanding why.

well i don't think they planted them, just that the employees of microsoft are the back were required to cheer this year.

edit: oh, i seem to remember something about that as well

 

[dragonelite]

As mentioned above, reddit is claiming they were trolled. I'll be honest, I actually believed MS were monitoring reddit, so the news of this being a troll is pretty surprising. That's not to say they probably aren't monitoring reddit and many other sites.

Anyway, this can't be good for reddit's image. That's two instances where they've made or supported some pretty outlandish claims only to have them completely backfire.

Of course microsoft and sony are monitoring gaming communities.
At least it is something i would do if would be a platform holder.

 

[EGM1966]

+ plants in audiences cheering and whistling at unveilings
+ (someone with good google fu will have to find the source for this one as I'm about to give a very general description since it's been like 2 years) some time ago there were paid actors in the crowd of a public unveiling of a new product/service , they were paid to approach the local news reporters when they came in to gauge public opinion and act like hyped and enthusiastic consumers.

Western capitalism really is broken beyond words, it's no longer about quality or productivity or competition, it's only about the bottom line and the perception needed to get there. It's all so pointless and meaningless.
Succeeding in convincing more people to buy a bad product is cheered for more than a good product having less success.
Just look at all the people cheerleading for the wii and kinect as soon as the sales started picking up for those, just... misguided is what people are now, totally lost the plot.

Going through the motions without understanding why.

I remember reading in a William Gibson novel a character note that today more creativity and effort goes into marketing and pushing social awareness than the actual product being marketed - boy does it ever feel like he got that one right currently. So much effort to fake positive sentiment rather than producing something that earns positive sentiment on its own merits.

 

[Cerebral Assassin]

Che wasn't a shill, he clearly identified himself. He was, however, bad at his job and unprofessional and basically too immature to represent a company.

Che may not have been a shill(even though he was incredibly misleading in the F3 threads), but someone with a MS e-mail(I believe it might have been a T10 email address) was banned for repeatedly talking down GT5, it has been happening for years.

 

[twobear]

+ plants in audiences cheering and whistling at unveilings
+ (someone with good google fu will have to find the source for this one as I'm about to give a very general description since it's been like 2 years) some time ago there were paid actors in the crowd of a public unveiling of a new product/service , they were paid to approach the local news reporters when they came in to gauge public opinion and act like hyped and enthusiastic consumers.

Western capitalism really is broken beyond words, it's no longer about quality or productivity or competition, it's only about the bottom line and the perception needed to get there. It's all so pointless and meaningless.
Succeeding in convincing more people to buy a bad product is cheered for more than a good product having less success.
Just look at all the people cheerleading for the wii and kinect as soon as the sales started picking up for those, just... misguided is what people are now, totally lost the plot.

Going through the motions without understanding why.

Yeah, because god forbid people would actually like the Wii.

 

[Terra]

Its just part of a wider company culture at ms. Where the Xbox division is definitly the worst and least humble.

So...what does it say that you are not affiliated with another company? What do you really know about 'xbox division being the worst and least humble'?

The same goes for all the big businesses, you can't point out that only MS has this strategy. It probably exists within Sony and Nintendo too. Hell, even smaller businesses can go buzzing about their own stuff.

 

[Night_Trekker]

What "leaps" are there, here? We've had mod confirmation that this sort of marketing is happening and happens all the time.

The fact we have billion-dollar corporations involved in this industry practically guarantees that they'll be doing this.

Exactly. It costs them almost nothing to do this sort of viral marketing, and they stand to gain by doing it. And we've seen plenty of viral marketers even here on GAF time and again.

I'd be more surprised if they weren't doing this.

 

[Xenon]

Too funny! Sad part is there will be no lesson in this.

 

[PedroLumpy]

Right, and the unfortunate outcome is that in the case of a poorly received product, generally it's impossible for the dev to actually post anything and receive a positive outcome. Generally that seems to be the rule nowadays; if your product is already well-received, you can interact with the community to increase good will. But if it's not, you'd better keep your mouth shut. It's reminiscent of the Sim City AMA on Reddit; once the subject of DRM came up, it rendered all other subjects moot. I don't work in PR, but I'd imagine that was a case study for most in the industry on whether direct communications are appropriate.

Unfortunate outcome? That's kind of the entire point. There isn't a controlled message here so Industry types can be asked the tough questions if they do something shitty.

 

[abacab driver]

Too funny! Sad part is there will be no lesson in this.

I would hope the lesson would carry over into real life, the least.

 

[eastmen]

Everyone's suspect now lol

Was Reiko a MS shill?

Reiko asked me to respond to you. This is what he /she has to say

"I am not a shill. I am not a got dammed MS employee. I am not the face of some shitty corporation either."

"If you believe that then it's best to log off of GAF for a while and take a break from this madness."

"I am 100% against the Xbox One for it's anti consumer practices"

"MS can go to hell."

I'd just like to say , that there are positives to the xbox one , I find it to be a compelling system and I am interested in getting it. However I've been primarly a pc user . I'm used to drm and having no used market. So for me it doesn't affect my purchase choices. My friends will still buy the one and my friends will still enjoy the system.

 

[Perkel]

+ plants in audiences cheering and whistling at unveilings
+ (someone with good google fu will have to find the source for this one as I'm about to give a very general description since it's been like 2 years) some time ago there were paid actors in the crowd of a public unveiling of a new product/service , they were paid to approach the local news reporters when they came in to gauge public opinion and act like hyped and enthusiastic consumers.

Western capitalism really is broken beyond words, it's no longer about quality or productivity or competition, it's only about the bottom line and the perception needed to get there. It's all so pointless and meaningless.
Succeeding in convincing more people to buy a bad product is cheered for more than a good product having less success.
Just look at all the people cheerleading for the wii and kinect as soon as the sales started picking up for those, just... misguided is what people are now, totally lost the plot.

Going through the motions without understanding why.

It is more like ads buisness simply need to be trimmed with actual updated law. Astroturfing is still unknown problem to govs out there.

If law would say that company would need to pay 10% of company yearly profits upon being proven of using such ad tactics then astroturfing would be decimated and only crazy people would try to run ads like that.

Right now there is almost no law that regulates it or it is in early stages of development.

 

[watership]

As mentioned above, reddit is claiming they were trolled. I'll be honest, I actually believed MS were monitoring reddit, so the news of this being a troll is pretty surprising. That's not to say they probably aren't monitoring reddit and many other sites.

Anyway, this can't be good for reddit's image. That's two instances where they've made or supported some pretty outlandish claims only to have them completely backfire.

It's basically bad for the gaming communities.

-People were mad about Xbox one.
- Someone created posted a fake instance of corporate manipulation of the community, without proof, on reddit.
-Reddit, and other gaming communities believed it, jumped on anyone not against MS as a paid shill.
-Post investigations galore on gaf. Worse, doxxing of peoples personal lives all over reddit, if they said anything positive about MS.
-some redditors call foul, notice lack of evidence, mods agree start banning and closing threats.
-Believers rally against mode, open more threads, extreme posters accuse mods of being in the pocket of MS.
-Deeper investigation shows it was an epic troll. People still being called out as shills. Damage done, gaming community is now even more marginalized as outrages reactionary children. So stupid.

http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comm...x_one_and_allegations_of_voterigging/.compact

Gotta say tho, reddit mods coming out and putting it all out in the open was the right thing to do.

Should there be a topic change? New thread?

 

[Wickerbasket]

Reiko asked me to respond to you. This is what he /she has to say




I'd just like to say , that there are positives to the xbox one , I find it to be a compelling system and I am interested in getting it. However I've been primarly a pc user . I'm used to drm and having no used market. So for me it doesn't affect my purchase choices. My friends will still buy the one and my friends will still enjoy the system.

You probably shouldn't be posting stuff for a banned member.

I'm pretty sure posting for banned users gets people banned.

 

[SneakyStephan]

Reiko asked me to respond to you. This is what he /she has to say




I'd just like to say , that there are positives to the xbox one , I find it to be a compelling system and I am interested in getting it. However I've been primarly a pc user . I'm used to drm and having no used market. So for me it doesn't affect my purchase choices. My friends will still buy the one and my friends will still enjoy the system.

Tag quote

 

[Windu]

Anyone see this yet? looks like this whole thing was faked.

http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/1fyjgr/regarding_xbox_one_and_allegations_of_voterigging/

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

Anyone see this yet? looks like this whole thing was faked.

http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/1fyjgr/regarding_xbox_one_and_allegations_of_voterigging/

At this point, anything and everything is believable; even the whole thing being fake can be true as there are some people out there who do nothing better than stir shit, especially over at Reddit.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was a fake. I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't a fake.

 

[IrishNinja]

tell Reiko he/she is missed, had excellent taste in womenses

 

[Hana-Bi]

So the Redditor was a Sony employee?

 

[watership]

So the Redditor was a Sony employee?

Being a hater doesn't make someone a lover of the direct competition. But really, we love drama, and this person saw an opportunity to watch the world burn. He probably hated MS, and couldn't care less about Sony or Nintendo. And it worked. This is actually damaging to both sides. The reasonable arguments for XBO, and reasonable and real concerns about the XBO.

 

[poisonelf]

Being a hater doesn't make someone a lover of the direct competition. But really, we love drama, and this person saw an opportunity to watch the world burn. He probably hated MS, and couldn't care less about Sony or Nintendo. And it worked. This is actually damaging to both sides. The reasonable arguments for XBO, and reasonable and real concerns about the XBO.

Yes, but let's not pretend that this reddit post is what started it all.

Astroturfing is a known annoyance for years now, and in this specific case the influx of 'weird' PR-like, copy/paste, pro-Xbox comments by certain juniors started before the reddit thread, and mods assured that they trace emails, or even use other sources, as to verify paid shills.

One of the reasons I like GAF about a hundred times more than reddit is the moderation and verification of facts when needed, so something happening in one community does not automatically overlap with the other.

 

[NoirVisage]

Refute? It's impossible to refute. This is the double standard here (and perhaps rightfully so). The original poster gave ZERO proof--it was a firsthand account from an anonymous poster who gave no evidence apart from a few words. You can't prove that it doesn't happen--Microsoft came out and said they didn't do it, which normally would be proof, but hey, no one listens. It's only possible to prove that they DO it, and so far, there's been NOTHING to that effect.


And this prevailing train of thought is why I find myself commenting on GAF less and less.

So I can't give my honest opinion without first disclosing where I work? I usually do when commenting on something related to my job out of consideration, and most of the people here who know me know my professional background (for the purposes of this thread, it has nothing to do with console gaming), but I still find it ridiculous that GAF puts out a witchhunt over someone who doesn't. A lot of people choose to work somewhere specifically BECAUSE they feel passionate about the product. Whether or not they decide to disclose that fact is a matter of privacy. Given the huge backlash against Sim City I highly doubt Glassbox wanted to "out himself", especially if he's not authorized to do PR.

This is why a lot of the industry is "afraid" of GAF, really. It's so easy to turn something positive or innocuous into something harmful.

You are either daft or being ridiculous, I want to think you're just being ridiculous, this is a gaming forum, and we talk about games, if you have a strong bias (a paycheck and career thanks to a particular company is a pretty strong bias toward said company) and spread a message favorable to the source of your income on a gaming forum, you are as much a shill as someone who is paid to shill.

 

[Durante]

The whole reddit thing is not really related to the astroturfing problem here on GAF. Bish's post and the flood of junior astroturfers that kicked it off both precede the reddit post.

 

[jblank83]

well i don't think they planted them, just that the employees of microsoft are the back were required to cheer this year.

edit: oh, i seem to remember something about that as well

Cheering shills has been standard industry practice since Sony's 2006 E3 megabomb. It's become increasingly obvious, with people loudly applauding even the awkwardest and worst product deliveries.

 

[Gori]

Cheering shills has been standard industry practice since Sony's 2006 E3 megabomb. It's become increasingly obvious, with people loudly applauding even the awkwardest and worst product deliveries.

For Microsoft, yes. Sony still doesn't do this.

 

[BlackJace]

Whatever happened to Baconsammy?