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Is this the best anti-rape campaign ever?

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pa22word

Member
Girls shouldn't have to be any more careful than guys when drinking, though.


Probably going to be flamed for this, but here goes:

In a perfect world, sure. Problem is we live in a not-so-perfect world filled with truly terrible people who would take advantage of a person in such a situation. It's not about "blaming the victim" for me as much as trying to make people understand that even though the playing field should be level it is in fact NOT level. There are men out there who not only will take advantage of a drunk girl, but will go out of their way to create a scenario in which the girl gets drunk in order to take advantage of her. Is that terrible that we live in such a world where woman have to be more careful in certain situations vs men? Yes, yes it is completely disgusting and fucking terrible, however due to this I feel as an older sibling of a younger sister who's reaching the party age I must prepare her to be careful in these situations and watch her back for the pigs who do such things. Call me a misogynist or tell me I'm contributing to the patriarchy all you fucking want, but I am not going to stick my head in the sand and pretend like everything is level when everyone who's been to some of the nastier parties out there know it damned sure is not. My sister's safety is more important to me than feeding her pretense that the world is all sunshine and puppydog eyes and that no-one will take advantage of her because it's wrong for them to do so.
 
No, because she is not being required to do anything. She can go to all the shady areas she wants, drink all she wants, whatever. People are just giving her advice, which she can either be convinced by and adopt, or reject and ignore. Yes, the advice is directed at women more than men, because they are unfortunately at a much, much higher risk for being raped. It's unfortunate, but it's the truth. Rejecting truth because it's not as egalitarian as we would like is unwise.

When you're giving someone advice, you're usually hoping that they take said advice. I am not talking about the advice itself being unequal; I am talking about the ramifications of said advice on the freedoms of men and women.

No, because fallacies undetected as fallacies can convince an audience to adopt an incorrect or unwise view. If a woman was debating whether to dress in more revealing or less revealing clothes, and she were to read a post saying, "Might as well lock them in the house!" and become disturbed by the extreme notion, and therefore disregard the post to which it was replying, without realizing why it was a fallacious argument, she may well be convinced to take different actions than she otherwise would have. That is not to say that the line she chooses for herself is necessarily wrong, but decisions should not be based on a logical fallacies, regardless if someone else reached the same decision by logically sound means.

While that is true, I'm saying that by coming to the conclusion that the woman is determining what is and is not extreme, this explanation:

Faulty because: The argument is that women should take reasonable precautions to mitigate the risk of getting raped. So saying, "Yes, but look at all these unreasonable things you could do that would lower her risk!" is a strawman, because no one is encouraging those. Furthermore, the argument contains a faulty premise: if unreasonable precautions exist, then either all precautions are unreasonable or reasonable precautions should also not be encouraged.

Is thereby rendered moot and, as such, the fallacy that it describes is not really a fallacy. If it's on a person-to-person basis, then saying "look at all of these other things the woman can do" is not reasonable or unreasonable.

However, this does present a problem with the person-to-person basis of rationality. My earlier point was to illustrate that while you may see the precautions that you describe as reasonable, others may not. This is particularly because of the promotion of paranoia, lessened focus on the men who make the choice to rape, and furthermore, it limits what a woman can and cannot do, while the men are comparatively free.
 

thekad

Banned
Are you suggesting that this isn't a train of thought that actually happens?

You're suggesting it is?

Fixed.

The message they're trying to get around is that it shouldn't be socially acceptable to force someone in sex in any situation. By saying "She's asking for it" you're basically saying, even if I wouldn't force her to sex, if someone did it'd be (even somewhat) acceptable in this circumstance.


No, you're not basically saying that at all.
 
Probably going to be flamed for this, but here goes:

In a perfect world, sure. Problem is we live in a not-so-perfect world filled with truly terrible people who would take advantage of a person in such a situation. It's not about "blaming the victim" for me as much as trying to make people understand that even though the playing field should be level it is in fact NOT level. There are men out there who not only will take advantage of a drunk girl, but will go out of their way to create a scenario in which the girl gets drunk in order to take advantage of her. Is that terrible that we live in such a world where woman have to be more careful in certain situations vs men? Yes, yes it is completely disgusting and fucking terrible, however due to this I feel as an older sibling of a younger sister who's reaching the party age I must prepare her to be careful in these situations and watch her back for the pigs who do such things. Call me a misogynist or tell me I'm contributing to the patriarchy all you fucking want, but I am not going to stick my head in the sand and pretend like everything is level when everyone who's been to some of the nastier parties out there know it damned sure is not. My sister's safety is more important to me than feeding her pretense that the world is all sunshine and puppydog eyes and that no-one will take advantage of her because it's wrong for them to do so.

"Shouldn't have to." I'm aware that we don't live in a perfect world. The problem is that we're often putting the focus in the wrong place. We're telling girls to do x, y and z in order to avoid being raped, while ignoring the guys who are raping people. I can empathize with your care for your sister. And honestly, I've no qualms with you telling her to be careful. But in doing that, we only serve to increase victim blaming after the fact "How much did she drink? Mmm-hmm." "Did you see what she was wearing?"

I'm not going to sit here and pretend that anything that I'm saying here will help your sister be safer. It probably won't. It's just... focusing on a person's responsibility to prevent themselves from being raped starts from a flawed premise, one that takes rights away from a person simply because of how they were born. And if we want the world to be any better, we need to start looking at it from a different angle. Advise your sister how to be safe, fine. But that doesn't help the discussion on how to stop rape - and we do that by going after the would-be rapists.
 
"She's asking for it" = "I want to rape her" lol what a weird ad
Are you serious? How blinkered can you be?
Yea, that was my thought too. When someone says "she's asking for it", I think she want's sex. Trolling for sex isn't the same thing as asking to get raped.
Did you watch the video? The woman is literally stood in a bar. She hasn't even talked to the guy, looked at him or even acknowledged her existence.

This idea that women are 'asking for sex' because of what they wear is ridiculous.
 

PogiJones

Banned
When you're giving someone advice, you're usually hoping that they take said advice. I am not talking about the advice itself being unequal; I am talking about the ramifications of said advice on the freedoms of men and women.
If someone convinces me to go buy a pizza, have my freedoms been infringed? No; I made a decision, based on the advice I received. The idea that advice reduces freedom is untenable.

While that is true, I'm saying that by coming to the conclusion that the woman is determining what is and is not extreme, this explanation:



Is thereby rendered moot and, as such, the fallacy that it describes is not really a fallacy. If it's on a person-to-person basis, then saying "look at all of these other things the woman can do" is not reasonable or unreasonable.
It's not moot, because, as I described, the argument is that one precaution is unreasonable because another, far more extreme precaution is unreasonable. Without specifying which precautions, and thereby injecting subjectiveness, that argument formula itself is objectively a logical fallacy. Once we inject the specific precautions we're talking about, yes, subjectivity is involved, but that does not mean the argument formula over which the specifics are laid is logically sound; it is not. Furthermore, even after injecting the specifics, the precaution chosen as the extreme (avoiding men forever to avoid any risk of rape) is almost universally accepted as unacceptable. That is the precise reason they used that example; it would not be contested as reasonable. So the exact argument, after the details, is: Women wearing more modest clothing to avoid rape is unreasonable because women avoiding all men forever is unreasonable. That is a logical fallacy, subjective standards or no.
However, this does present a problem with the person-to-person basis of rationality. My earlier point was to illustrate that while you may see the precautions that you describe as reasonable, others may not. This is particularly because of the promotion of paranoia, lessened focus on the men who make the choice to rape, and furthermore, it limits what a woman can and cannot do, while the men are comparatively free.
Once again, I have no idea where you're getting the idea that people posting on a forum saying, "Women should watch their drinking at parties with drunk dudes" somehow limits their freedom. If making a decision based on sensory and/or intellectual input limits your freedom, then we are limiting our freedom every moment of every day. There is nothing, literally NOTHING stopping women from completely disregarding the advice. Does the advice suggest women take more precautions than men? Once again, yes, because men are not at nearly as much risk of getting raped as women. Men are also advised to get colon screenings much more often than women. Reality and its risks do not care about egalitarianism. But even so, even though the advice is one-sided, it cannot, in any conceivable way, prevent a woman from doing what she chooses to do. I just do not understand how you are equating consideration and adoption of advice to not having the ability to choose.
 

thekad

Banned
Are you serious? How blinkered can you be?

What do you want me to tell you. You're just taking the most ludicrous jump to your preferred implication from a simple turn of phrase. Of course, that seems to be the aim in all these threads, to pretend that in every man's heart lies a rapist wanting to burst free.
How so? What other implications would there be?

She's looking for the attention of a man.

Yeah, shocking and disgusting. Someone lock that rapist up.
 

Nickiepoo

Member
You're suggesting it is?

Evidently. Those assumptions about how 'up for it' a woman is are exactly what can lead to people commiting rape even if they can then say 'but it wasn't rape rape and she wanted it anyway'.

Are you really saying that this is a thing that never happens?
 

thekad

Banned
When you say things like "evidently," it stands to reason that you would follow up with something other than more baseless assumptions.
 
What do you want me to tell you. You're just taking the most ludicrous jump to your preferred implication from a simple turn of phrase. Of course, that seems to be the aim in all these threads, to pretend that in every man's heart lies a rapist wanting to burst free.
Well, the fact is, 'she was asking for it' is one of the most common excuses used by rapists and their defendants to justify the act of rape. Just because that's not how you interpret or use the phrase, doesn't make it not so.

So go on, if someone said 'she's asking for it', when, like in the video, she quite clearly wasn't, what does that mean to you?
 

Nickiepoo

Member
When you say things like "evidently," it stands to reason that you would follow up with something other than more baseless assumptions.

So you're saying it never happens. I guess this isn't a suprise from a guy who just made the baseless assumption that a girl dressing up is only doing so to impress a man.
 

methane47

Member
This is fucking dumb. She drags him into her room, all kissing and touching.

He gets intimate. Tries to get her in the mood. "oh no! rape!!!". The girl showed no resistance. If someone tries to get in my pants without me wanting so, I will definitely not settle with protesting "I don't want to."

Yikes.... dude..

The event was Definitely rape... but imho if the guy had handled himself a little better, took things a little bit more slowly then things may have gone a little better.

Seems like a thin line.
 

LuchaShaq

Banned
Someone asked me to rape them before so this ad is false.

T.T

That fetish isn't exactly all that uncommon.

Knew a girl who had that as her fantasy, ended up raped by a stranger, and then attempted suicide because she felt guilty about having an orgasm during the attack.
 
If someone convinces me to go buy a pizza, have my freedoms been infringed? No; I made a decision, based on the advice I received. The idea that advice reduces freedom is untenable.

A single person buying a pizza is not comparable to telling all women that they should have to limit x, y and z in order to be safe while men have to do none of that.

It's not moot, because, as I described, the argument is that one precaution is unreasonable because another, far more extreme precaution is unreasonable. Without specifying which precautions, and thereby injecting subjectiveness, that argument formula itself is objectively a logical fallacy. Once we inject the specific precautions we're talking about, yes, subjectivity is involved, but that does not mean the argument formula over which the specifics are laid is logically sound; it is not. Furthermore, even after injecting the specifics, the precaution chosen as the extreme (avoiding men forever to avoid any risk of rape) is almost universally accepted as unacceptable. That is the precise reason they used that example; it would not be contested as reasonable. So the exact argument, after the details, is: Women wearing more modest clothing to avoid rape is unreasonable because women avoiding all men forever is unreasonable. That is a logical fallacy, subjective standards or no.

Incorrect. The argument is that you're drawing your own line, and choosing what is and is not reasonable. Saying that women could distrust all men around them or choose not to interact with them in a friendly context is pointing to something larger - that is, that is the direct precaution for the more major threat. Since the existence of a major threat does not mean you don't take precautions for the more minor threat, this means that on top of wearing more modest clothing, they would have to avoid men in a social context else distrust them.

Once again, I have no idea where you're getting the idea that people posting on a forum saying, "Women should watch their drinking at parties with drunk dudes" somehow limits their freedom. If making a decision based on sensory and/or intellectual input limits your freedom, then we are limiting our freedom every moment of every day. There is nothing, literally NOTHING stopping women from completely disregarding the advice. Does the advice suggest women take more precautions than men? Once again, yes, because men are not at nearly as much risk of getting raped as women. Men are also advised to get colon screenings much more often than women. Reality and its risks do not care about egalitarianism. But even so, even though the advice is one-sided, it cannot, in any conceivable way, prevent a woman from doing what she chooses to do. I just do not understand how you are equating consideration and adoption of advice to not having the ability to choose.

It's not that you're giving the advice, it's the focus on it. Go back through the thread - women have heard it all. And yet we keep hammering it in, to the point where we're again discussing that women should do all of these things to keep from being raped in a thread that started from the premise that men should not rape.
 
She's looking for the attention of a man.

Yeah, shocking and disgusting. Someone lock that rapist up.
Fucking hell. A man, perhaps. Of course there's the chance that she just wanted to look good, because, shock and horror, women sometimes actually dress up in order to feel good about themselves.

BUT, for a minute, let's just assume that she IS out to get the attention of a man. That doesn't just mean any man that takes a liking to how she looks. Sometimes when I go out, I'll make an effort and chuck on a nice shirt in the hopes of maybe attracting the interests of a nice girl. That DOESN'T mean that I want to have sex with every girl in the club. It doesn't mean that, because I'm dressed up, I'm fair game and anyone can just 'have a go'. The idea sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? Why? Because I'm a man. The double standards on show here are ridiculous.
 

thekad

Banned
Well, the fact is, 'she was asking for it' is one of the most common excuses used by rapists and their defendants to justify the act of rape.

How does that relate to the guy in the video? Who did he rape? What act is he justifying?

So you're saying it never happens.

The burden of proof isn't on me.

I guess this isn't a suprise from a guy who just made the baseless assumption that a girl dressing up is only doing so to impress a man.

Reading comprehension. I never made that assumption. I'm telling you what the phrase actually means rather than what you want it to mean to help your fevered imagination.

Fucking hell. A man, perhaps. Of course there's the chance that she just wanted to look good, because, shock and horror, women sometimes actually dress up in order to feel good about themselves.

BUT, for a minute, let's just assume that she IS out to get the attention of a man. That doesn't just mean any man that takes a liking to how she looks. Sometimes when I go out, I'll make an effort and chuck on a nice shirt in the hopes of maybe attracting the interests of a nice girl. That DOESN'T mean that I want to have sex with every girl in the club. It doesn't mean that, because I'm dressed up, I'm fair game and anyone can just 'have a go'. The idea sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? Why? Because I'm a man. The double standards on show here are ridiculous.

Okay? The guy didn't say that. That's exactly why the ad is dumb.
 

Bleepey

Member
Well, the fact is, 'she was asking for it' is one of the most common excuses used by rapists and their defendants to justify the act of rape. Just because that's not how you interpret or use the phrase, doesn't make it not so.

So go on, if someone said 'she's asking for it', when, like in the video, she quite clearly wasn't, what does that mean to you?

Any evidence regarding rapists claiming she asked for it? I am genuinely curious. She's asking for it can be taken in different ways. One could argue she's looking to get laid, others may claim a rapist may claim she's looking to get raped. I'd just like to state that I personally think thagjust cos a girl wears revealing clothes it doesn't mean she wants male attention, something I have ironically had to remind women.
 
How does that relate to the guy in the video? Who did he rape? What act is he justifying?
Jesus Christ, it's a hypothetical situation. Hes justifying the would-be rape of that woman. He clearly says she's asking for sex because of the clothes she's wearing. How could that be any more black and white? Maybe that's not what you mean when you say 'she's asking for it' - though tbh, I don't know what else you could possibly mean by that - but that's what the creator of the video was suggesting, and that's what a lot of men say to justify rape.

What, did you want the girl to get raped in the advert and THEN he says it? It's the same principle.
 

Nickiepoo

Member
The burden of proof isn't on me.

I'm not asking you to prove anything, I'm asking you if that's your point of view. 'Reading comprehension'.

Reading comprehension. I never made that assumption. I'm telling you what the phrase actually means rather than what you want it to mean to help your fevered imagination.

So you're telling me that when a guy says 'she's up for it' he's making an assumption that a woman is dressed up nicely in order to impress a man/men and yet you still don't get the point of the advert.
 

thekad

Banned
Jesus Christ, it's a hypothetical situation. Hes justifying the would-be rape of that woman. He clearly says she's asking for sex because of the clothes she's wearing. How could that be any more black and white? Maybe that's not what you mean when you say 'she's asking for it' - though tbh, I don't know what else you could possibly mean by that - but that's what the creator of the video was suggesting, and that's what a lot of men say to justify rape.

No "she's asking for it" isn't justifying the would-be rape of a woman; it's amazing that this seems to elude you. That the ad suggests this to be the case is what makes it so stupid, because the idea is obviously ridiculous.

Also that you think what rapists say after committing a crime is relevant is pretty funny.

What, did you want the girl to get raped in the advert and THEN he says it? It's the same principle.

Jesus Christ
 

Dude Abides

Banned
Jesus Christ, it's a hypothetical situation. Hes justifying the would-be rape of that woman. He clearly says she's asking for sex because of the clothes she's wearing. How could that be any more black and white? Maybe that's not what you mean when you say 'she's asking for it' - though tbh, I don't know what else you could possibly mean by that - but that's what the creator of the video was suggesting, and that's what a lot of men say to justify rape.

What, did you want the girl to get raped in the advert and THEN he says it? It's the same principle.

No, no, the "it" she's asking for is obviously to discuss Dostoyevsky over tea.
 

ICKE

Banned
Did people/officials advised women what to do, what to wear, remove the gender equality because its hard to fix and deal with the real problem so we will take some current freedoms from the victims instead?

No

Regardless of what the officials decided to do, it should be common sense to act cautiously.

Dressing up provocatively might not be a good idea in certain areas. It is not an excuse for the rapist, people need to stop being so defensive with the whole "you can't tell me what to do" - attitude and face reality. There is a much higher chance for a woman to find herself in a bad situation if she decides to opt for hitchhiking while being drunk.

Are people really so naive? Just because law offers you certain protections on paper and in the eyes of the society you have a moral right to do X, it will not stop Y from taking place . A lot of men are driven by their primal desires and when alcohol is added into that equation the risk factor rises significantly.

Discretion, ability or power to decide responsibly. Fucking use it when you go out to have a good time, regardless of your sex, and if you live in a bad neighborhood be prepared. That being said, the sentences for sexual assaults in Nordic countries are too lenient at the moment and more resources should be directed towards integration in various facilities (teaching youngsters with immigrant backgrounds how things work in Europe, some sort of rehabilitation for inmates. You can't just let a rapist sit out his sentence and then be free without doing something else). Hopefully these ad campaigns help.
 

Jasup

Member
She's looking for the attention of a man.

Yeah, shocking and disgusting. Someone lock that rapist up.

Now, how is "She's looking for the attention of a man" even remotely the same as "She's asking for it"?

In the first sentence the woman is the active participant: She is doing something to accomplish something.

In the second sentence the active participant is someone else: She is doing something to get someone else to do something to/for her.


Let's go to the hypotheticals:
What if I were to tell you that you are "asking for it". Now, wouldn't it imply that in my mind whatever attack against you is in the end (at least a little bit) your fault? And even if I'm not actively participating in the attack, wouldn't saying that imply that I'm at least partially ok with it?

There is a reason why saying "you're asking for it" can be considered a threat.

By saying "She's asking for it" to others you're saying "you're asking for it" to her.
 

Empty

Member
not really a fan. i mean i'd rather that message is out there than an advert for shampoo but it's not very well communicated. when people victim blame women for wearing short skirts they don't literally think they're buying it to get raped, so i don't think it helps change minds or encourage people to consider different perspectives.

I think this one's more effective:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gEftWCG5Ow

EDIT: Going to add a trigger warning

yeah i love this one. i've seen it in cinemas too which is nice. it really directly hits something that is scarily common and makes people think about rape as more than just being violently attacked in an alley. i think the realism makes it much harder to ignore than the op's ad too.
 

Nickiepoo

Member
when people victim blame women for wearing short skirts they don't literally think they're buying it to get raped

Not literally, that's the 'joke' but 'she was asking for it by dressing like that' is close enough that it doesn't matter. The essence is the same.

Yet to imply that consensual drunk sex is only a man's fault is disgusting.

He's not saying that consentual drunk sex is always the mans fault, he's saying that that consent doesn't really exist. I think he was really talking about 'in a coma' drunk though.
 

LuchaShaq

Banned
Girls are allowed to get stupid black out drunk. Men are not allowed to put their penises in them





Its the beginning of a larger dialogue that needs to happen with boys & men. They need to be taught what consent is, how to achieve, and when consent cannot be given (when a girl is drunk).

To act as if two people of about equal drunkenness having consensual sex is anything but a mutually poor decision is insulting to actual rape victims.

Lots of women are raped while drunk yes, and that's awful. Yet to imply that consensual drunk sex is only a man's fault is disgusting. What if their consensual sex involves her using a strap on to fuck the man. Is he still the rapist here or is it her since she did the actual penetrating? What if she is on top and he is handcuffed to the bed, is he still a rapist even though he had no way of forcing sex? What if the woman is very large and strong and the man is literally half her size? Consensual drunk sex is not rape, one sided drunk sex sadly often is.

This attitude is disgusting and only perpetrates the idea that rape isn't a serious issue.
 

PogiJones

Banned
A single person buying a pizza is not comparable to telling all women that they should have to limit x, y and z in order to be safe while men have to do none of that.

Incorrect. The argument is that you're drawing your own line, and choosing what is and is not reasonable. Saying that women could distrust all men around them or choose not to interact with them in a friendly context is pointing to something larger - that is, that is the direct precaution for the more major threat. Since the existence of a major threat does not mean you don't take precautions for the more minor threat, this means that on top of wearing more modest clothing, they would have to avoid men in a social context else distrust them.
Neither I nor anyone else has said anyone has to do anything, and for the past 3 posts you've been attacking that un-argued argument. "Should" does NOT equate to "have to." I will give you advice right now: save some money for a rainy day. That means you have to limit x (movie theaters), y (theme parks), and z (expensive restaurants) in order to be financially secure, while the wealthy have to do none of that. Did you feel that? You just lost your ability to choose. My advice has drained your freedom.

It is not our advice that makes it so women are more likely to be raped. It's the generally more aggressive nature of men which can be morphed into sadistic desire in a demented few, the smaller stature of women compared to men, and the general sexual attraction of men to women. Combine those three, and that's what makes it so women are more likely to be raped. Saying that safety advice should be applied equally to everyone, regardless of their circumstances, is absolutely mind-boggling.

With regards to the logical analysis of the fallacy, you are confusing necessary and sufficient clauses, and messing up the inverse. You are saying that since the existence of a major threat doesn't render all Precautions for minor threats unreasonable, that that translates logically to the following: If you choose to engage in a reasonable precaution against a minor threat, you MUST take any and all precautions (reasonable or unreasonable) against a major threat. This is logically unsound. Not only are you adding terms to the equation (precautions against major threats was not part of the original, nor was the actor's choice to engage in any behavior), but it's illogical to think that one MUST participate in anything, without some force making them do so.
It's not that you're giving the advice, it's the focus on it. Go back through the thread - women have heard it all. And yet we keep hammering it in, to the point where we're again discussing that women should do all of these things to keep from being raped in a thread that started from the premise that men should not rape.
There was one dude that said an awful statement that seemed to endorse rape and blame the victim. After an avalanche of criticism against the guy (and a banning), people were talking about his victim blaming, and then were attributing victim blaming allegations to any safety advice whatsoever. Other people then jumped in to say that, while victim blaming does exist, advice doesn't equate to victim blaming, and no one (besides the first dude) was claiming that any of the rape's culpability was shifted from rapist to victim. I've seen multiple people, including you, say that people are focusing on what the women can do and ignoring the rapists. Who in the world is ignoring the rapists? Not a single person has said to do so. And that first poster who endorsed rape was soundly criticized by everyone, and banned. I've never met or heard a single person say, "let's let the rapists run free, and try to solve this problem through the women alone." It's a false dichotomy, an either-or that holds no water. Everyone giving safety tips also endorses educating people on obtaining clear consent, locking up rapists, trying to improve the sexual health of the country, putting full rape blame on the perpetrators, reducing rape attempts, and encouraging women to take reasonable precautions to reduce the risk, while disregarding unreasonable precautions. Suggesting people are ignoring the rapists is just nonsense, and an attempt to make an opposing view seem indefensible when it's actually quite solid.
 
To act as if two people of about equal drunkenness having consensual sex is anything but a mutually poor decision is insulting to actual rape victims.

Lots of women are raped while drunk yes, and that's awful. Yet to imply that consensual drunk sex is only a man's fault is disgusting. What if their consensual sex involves her using a strap on to fuck the man. Is he still the rapist here or is it her since she did the actual penetrating? What if she is on top and he is handcuffed to the bed, is he still a rapist even though he had no way of forcing sex? What if the woman is very large and strong and the man is literally half her size? Consensual drunk sex is not rape, one sided drunk sex sadly often is.

This attitude is disgusting and only perpetrates the idea that rape isn't a serious issue.

eh? unless consent is attained before alcohol is consumed then neither party gave consent
 

ICKE

Banned
eh? unless consent is attained before alcohol is consumed then neither party gave consent

And how does that happen exactly. Should I sign a formal agreement in the bar with two witnesses?

I'm being silly of course but these statements are such simplifications of what takes place in real life.
 

Empty

Member
Not literally, that's the 'joke' but 'she was asking for it by dressing like that' is close enough that it doesn't matter. The essence is the same.

hmm, yeah i see the joke, you're right about the essence. however i've found that when rape apologists say 'well she was wearing a short skirt' it's more about the decision to go out to a party looking as good as they can than buying the skirt in the first place. the whole 'well why did she dress like that tonight if she didn't want sex', or she was provoking them etc. i don't think the advert directly attacks that thinking well enough, it's a little too abstracted whereas you can't escape the other advert.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
eh? unless consent is attained before alcohol is consumed then neither party gave consent

This is false. For it to be rape, the woman has to be so drunk that a reasonable person would know she can't. That doesn't mean one drink, tipsy, buzzed, or even drunk. It means pretty damn drunk.
 

Nickiepoo

Member
hmm, yeah i see the joke, you're right about the essence. however i've found that when rape apologists say 'well she was wearing a short skirt' it's more about the decision to go out to a party looking as good as they can than buying the skirt in the first place. the whole 'well why did she dress like that tonight if she didn't want sex', or she was provoking them etc. i don't think the advert directly attacks that thinking well enough, it's a little too abstracted whereas you can't escape the other advert.

I'm not saying you're wrong about it not being a brilliantly communicated advert (there's plenty of evidence for that in this tread) but this seems like a niggle since they could have just shown her trying on skirts in her room with a friend right before going out ("which skirt says 'I want to get raped tonight' to you?") and the message would have been exactly the same.
 
This is false. For it to be rape, the woman has to be so drunk that a reasonable person would know she can't. That doesn't mean one drink, tipsy, buzzed, or even drunk. It means pretty damn drunk.

um... I don't think that's how the law is written

e: edit to clarify, yes I agree that a person having a drink or two can give consent, but that's a dangerous line to be walking where you are trying to assume that someone is fully functioning. Its best not to wait until someone is drunk
 
I don't understand the whole "she was asking for it".

At the end of a party, while drunk, I accidentally walked in on a girl naked when she was changing clothes yet the thought of rape never crossed my mind. I was embarrassed and quickly left the room.

If you can't control yourself, that fault is yours not the female. Plan and simple fact.
 
I'm not saying you're wrong about it not being a brilliantly communicated advert (there's plenty of evidence for that in this tread) but this seems like a niggle since they could have just shown her trying on skirts in her room with a friend right before going out ("which skirt says 'I want to get raped tonight' to you?") and the message would have been exactly the same.
Exactly. There is basically no difference between the two.
 
Neither I nor anyone else has said anyone has to do anything, and for the past 3 posts you've been attacking that un-argued argument. "Should" does NOT equate to "have to." I will give you advice right now: save some money for a rainy day. That means you have to limit x (movie theaters), y (theme parks), and z (expensive restaurants) in order to be financially secure, while the wealthy have to do none of that. Did you feel that? You just lost your ability to choose. My advice has drained your freedom.

It is not our advice that makes it so women are more likely to be raped. It's the generally more aggressive nature of men which can be morphed into sadistic desire in a demented few, the smaller stature of women compared to men, and the general sexual attraction of men to women. Combine those three, and that's what makes it so women are more likely to be raped. Saying that safety advice should be applied equally to everyone, regardless of their circumstances, is absolutely mind-boggling.

With regards to the logical analysis of the fallacy, you are confusing necessary and sufficient clauses, and messing up the inverse. You are saying that since the existence of a major threat doesn't render all Precautions for minor threats unreasonable, that that translates logically to the following: If you choose to engage in a reasonable precaution against a minor threat, you MUST take any and all precautions (reasonable or unreasonable) against a major threat. This is logically unsound. Not only are you adding terms to the equation (precautions against major threats was not part of the original, nor was the actor's choice to engage in any behavior), but it's illogical to think that one MUST participate in anything, without some force making them do so.

There was one dude that said an awful statement that seemed to endorse rape and blame the victim. After an avalanche of criticism against the guy (and a banning), people were talking about his victim blaming, and then were attributing victim blaming allegations to any safety advice whatsoever. Other people then jumped in to say that, while victim blaming does exist, advice doesn't equate to victim blaming, and no one (besides the first dude) was claiming that any of the rape's culpability was shifted from rapist to victim. I've seen multiple people, including you, say that people are focusing on what the women can do and ignoring the rapists. Who in the world is ignoring the rapists? Not a single person has said to do so. And that first poster who endorsed rape was soundly criticized by everyone, and banned. I've never met or heard a single person say, "let's let the rapists run free, and try to solve this problem through the women alone." It's a false dichotomy, an either-or that holds no water. Everyone giving safety tips also endorses educating people on obtaining clear consent, locking up rapists, trying to improve the sexual health of the country, putting full rape blame on the perpetrators, reducing rape attempts, and encouraging women to take reasonable precautions to reduce the risk, while disregarding unreasonable precautions. Suggesting people are ignoring the rapists is just nonsense, and an attempt to make an opposing view seem indefensible when it's actually quite solid.

I never made the argument that your advice takes away freedom. The argument is that in following your advice - in considering this good advice and the best advice we have - we are limiting women's rights in comparison to those of men's. Yes, women are more likely to be raped - that has nothing to do with that point, however, because the manner in which women are more likely to be raped renders your advice moot.

Moreover, it's perfect that you said this:

Saying that safety advice should be applied equally to everyone, regardless of their circumstances, is absolutely mind-boggling.

It illustrates my point - why are you giving out the same safety advice - to dress modestly - if you know that the women you're referring to are more likely to be raped by someone they know, regardless of dress?

Furthermore, being that the minor precaution is - to me and many others - unreasonable, being that it's less likely to be a threat, while taking no precaution to the more likely danger. A car and a lightning storm are too unrelated - both the major and minor threat we're discussing is rape, so perhaps a more apt comparison would be being afraid of dying in a car crash, so you buckle your seatbelt, yet you don't pay close attention to the other cars on the road. Why even bother taking that small precaution when ignoring the major danger?

(For the record, the major/minor threat thing was inspired by this: "the point was that preventative measures for minor risks are not all immediately rendered unreasonable by the existence of a greater risk." The point of your car vs. lightning storm analogy.)

And finally, why do we keep focusing on how women can protect themselves from the random guy on the street when most rape doesn't even happen in that way? How do we keep getting to the point in discussion where we're talking about the minor risk? We should be talking about how to mitigate the major risk, and the only way to do that is the discussion that this topic started with.
 

Symphonic

Member
This is fucking dumb. She drags him into her room, all kissing and touching.

He gets intimate. Tries to get her in the mood. "oh no! rape!!!". The girl showed no resistance. If someone tries to get in my pants without me wanting so, I will definitely not settle with protesting "I don't want to."

This is the single worst post I've read on GAF given the thread and the circumstances.

Just holy shit.
 
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