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[PK Gaming]

I've never seen an argument in favor of banning what I've mentioned aside from Garchomp. Not a good or convincing one, anyways. So forgive me if I don't care about Smogon anymore if they can't bring up an actual argument to back up their asinine bans.

I seriously doubt you've seen an argument worth reading

For example, I'm pretty sure I'm qualified to make these calls because I have a wide range of experiences in Pokemon at a level that you probably don't. As a result, my opinion is more valid than yours because I can approach these issues from all angles. I know what I'm talking about more than you.

For example, I have extensive experience with singles, including placing decently in a few tournaments. I watch top level teams play way more than I'd like to admit, and to top it all off, I've been laddering hardcore for the past few months. That really puts it all together, because I might have considered myself out of touch if I only had dated tournament experience, but all that laddering contributes to making me a better player.

All of my experiences have turned me into pretty much an expert when it comes to singles. Until you prove to me otherwise, I'm far more qualified than you. So I'll give you another chance: What exactly qualifies you to tell me when a Pokemon is or isn't broken?

Spoiler

I'm a pretty shitty player overall though, don't get me wrong. I just know i'm better than you.

I've already long since left Smogon and their awful formats so it's of little consequence.

And nothing of value was lost.

 

[UberTag]

Oh, I didn't know they cracked it. Even so, working your way around the RNG doesn't seem any different than using an app to me.

There's absolutely no difference in my mind.
Main reason why I'm hoping they hit the proverbial reset button with X and Y.

Why would anyone even bother to play the game competitively when they're guaranteed to be up against a bunch of perfect RNG monsters?
Clearly everyone needs to take advantage of the exploit to even bother outside of single-player... hence why it's fundamentally broken and they need to start again from scratch.

 

[Ultima_5]

I seriously doubt you've seen an argument worth reading

For example, I'm pretty sure I'm qualified to make these calls because I have a wide range of experiences in Pokemon at a level that you probably don't. As a result, my opinion is more valid than yours because I can approach these issues from all angles. I know what I'm talking about more than you.

For example, I have extensive experience with singles, including placing decently in a few tournaments. I watch top level teams play way more than I'd like to admit, and to top it all off, I've been laddering hardcore for the past few months. That really puts it all together, because I might have considered myself out of touch if I only had dated tournament experience, but all that laddering contributes to making me a better player.

All of my experiences have turned me into pretty much an expert when it comes to singles. Until you prove to me otherwise, I'm far more qualified than you. So I'll give you another chance: What exactly qualifies you to tell me when a Pokemon is or isn't broken?

EDIT: I'm a pretty shitty player overall though, don't get me wrong.



And nothing of value was lost.

you sound like a dick with your phrasing hoss

 

[Deleted member 231381]

you sound like a dick with your phrasing hoss

Regardless of whether he did or didn't, you haven't actually responded to his point.

 

[PreyingShark]

See, the problem with arguing on the internet like this is that any evidence you present just convinces the other guy that they're right the vast majority of the time. Yes, I'm serious, and no, it's not intuitive.

Anyways, I guess this means that they're making sure that DNS shenanigans won't work next gen. Goodbye, Pokecheck.

 

[Pomegranate]

I hope XY will not be backward compatible. The 3DS is not yet hacked, and if XY are not backward compatible then cheaters will be entirely eliminated.

 

[CorvoSol]

Regardless of whether he did or didn't, you haven't actually responded to his point.

Maybe I'm just not looking at the argument right, because I don't get it. All he says is "I am sure I am better than you because I say so and I know I am better than you. What gives you the right to tell me which Mon is better?"

Cuz I mean, unless he's going to back up his claims of "I am better than you" with some sort of evidence, it just sounds like a lot of saber rattling, dick measuring jabber.

Or his point is that no evidence was provided in favor of why said Pokemon should be considered broken, and so he is ironically making similar, unsupported claims, for the sake of illustrating why you can't just say something without proof and expect people to believe you.

He says "Until you prove me otherwise" but what is there to prove? All he's said is "I have more experience than you" But that experience is . . . playing singles, watching other people play and "laddering"? There is nothing to disprove. It's all fluff talk and chest beating. How could one possibly go about disproving claims that haven't the slightest bit of concretion to them?

I can't prove that watching other people play this game has made you better than me at it. I could prove, maybe, that watching other people play a game shows a positive increase in ability, but how would I even measure that? Am I measuring just watching? Am I defining ability as victory, or by the number of units I did not lose, or length of match, or what?

This is all a lot of pompous poppy-cock about a video game. Regardless of his point, I think we can all agree that PK Gaming saying "my opinion is more valid than yours" without much in the way of qualifiers certainly sounds kinda dickish, at the very least.

 

[Deleted member 13876]

Maybe I'm just not looking at the argument right, because I don't get it. All he says is "I am sure I am better than you because I say so and I know I am better than you. What gives you the right to tell me which Mon is better?"

Cuz I mean, unless he's going to back up his claims of "I am better than you" with some sort of evidence, it just sounds like a lot of saber rattling, dick measuring jabber.

Or his point is that no evidence was provided in favor of why said Pokemon should be considered broken, and so he is ironically making similar, unsupported claims, for the sake of illustrating why you can't just say something without proof and expect people to believe you.

He says "Until you prove me otherwise" but what is there to prove? All he's said is "I have more experience than you" But that experience is . . . playing singles, watching other people play and "laddering"? There is nothing to disprove. It's all fluff talk and chest beating. How could one possibly go about disproving claims that haven't the slightest bit of concretion to them?

I can't prove that watching other people play this game has made you better than me at it. I could prove, maybe, that watching other people play a game shows a positive increase in ability, but how would I even measure that? Am I measuring just watching? Am I defining ability as victory, or by the number of units I did not lose, or length of match, or what?

This is all a lot of pompous poppy-cock about a video game. Regardless of his point, I think we can all agree that PK Gaming saying "my opinion is more valid than yours" without much in the way of qualifiers certainly sounds kinda dickish, at the very least.

Aye. If he backed it up with actual arguments about why the banned stuff is deserved the post would have some merit, but now, no. Haven't played competitively since gen 3, but did understand why they banned some stuff.. The same could easily hold true now, but arguments based on "because I say so" aren't going to sway anyone.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

stuff

Hmm, I see your point. There's some jargon which is specific to competitive Pokemon which can slip under the radar and would explain some of what your problem is. Most competitive servers these days use ranking systems like glick2 or elo, which allows for a fairly neutral way of determining whether someone is a better player than other provided they play enough sample matches. Laddering is the process of creating a new team or account and seeing how high you can get your team or account up the rankings - i.e.; how good you are. Someone who ladders frequently and manages to score quite highly can to at least a certain extent be said to be quantitatively better than another.

As for not giving arguments, to a certain extent this is understandable. At the top of the game, certain strategies may be used that are not immediately apparent to those who don't compete at that level. As such, it may not be obvious why a particular Pokemon is banned. An example is RSE Wobbuffet. Lots of less competitive servers used to unban it, because they couldn't figure out what was so bad about Wobbuffet, because nobody on those serves understood how to use it properly - despite the fact for a top player Wobbuffet could initiate what was essentially an auto-win (or worse, a never-ending stalemate). It's not until you play the top players and see how they're capable of abusing particular tricks that you can necessarily determine whether something is broken or not. That means sometimes you can't really have a much more satisfying argument than "trust me, I have played the top players and you have not".

Now, I don't fully agree with this and I think you can go into further depth; I provided some of the reasons why, say, the combination of Drizzle and Swift Swim is banned on the previous page. There is going to be some point at which explanation becomes difficult, though, without the other person having further knowledge of the subject.

 

[Firestorm]

There's absolutely no difference in my mind.
Main reason why I'm hoping they hit the proverbial reset button with X and Y.

Why would anyone even bother to play the game competitively when they're guaranteed to be up against a bunch of perfect RNG monsters?
Clearly everyone needs to take advantage of the exploit to even bother outside of single-player... hence why it's fundamentally broken and they need to start again from scratch.

Looks like you're just looking for reasons to explain your losses. One of the players in the Top 16 in North America right now (and very likely to make the World Championships) doesn't bother RNGing. Still better than most players. You're always going to be at a small disadvantage if you don't perfect your Pokemon. Saying "what's the point" just means you want to blame external factors for your loss rather than manning up.

I agree they should remove the IV system but "no difference" is bullshit.

 

[Deleted member 13876]

The Wobuffet thing is easily explainable though, someone in this thread already did to some extent.

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

Is it even possible to remove IV's in competitive format? Makes sense for creating randomness when playing by yourself or sharing Pokemons, but in a controlled environment? No reason to exist.

 

[entremet]

I hope XY will not be backward compatible. The 3DS is not yet hacked, and if XY are not backward compatible then cheaters will be entirely eliminated.

People will be so heated if it is not. I personally don't care and it would be funny if they closed off importing from Gen V, but GF already mentioned they're working on something.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

The Wobuffet thing is easily explainable though, someone in this thread already did to some extent.

Sure, it was just an example. Most of these things can be explained to a certain extent; but ultimately the proof is in the process. Theorymon only gets you so far.

 

[Theorymon]

I mentioned this before but it got ignored;;; You don't HAVE to play Smogon's OU to be into competitive Pokemon! I play Ubers (technically part of Smogon, but not really exclusive to it), which is a metagame where no Pokemon are banned. Hell, quite a few people argue that it's more balanced than OU at the moment! There's also VGC, which is Nintendo's official metagame. It's a doubles metagame too, for those of you who don't like Singles!

I don't think it matters if you like Smogon or not though (I do, but that's another story), because I think the main issue here is still IVs being a stupid barrier towards competitive play. It's either grind for ages to get a non garbage Pokemon (which goes against the spirit of the games), abuse the RNG (which X and Y will probably destroy), cheat (which is no good for obvious reasons), or be at a serious disadvantage in competitive play. This isn't like an MMO either. As some people put it, its sorta more like a fighting game. The kind of extreme breeding / soft resetting that IVs promote really makes competitive Pokemon a lot less accessible than it should be!

I think a simple solution to this problem is to just let us change IV values in some way. This way, competitive Pokemon becomes much more accessible, and cheating becomes far less commonplace!

 

[PK Gaming]

Maybe I'm just not looking at the argument right, because I don't get it. All he says is "I am sure I am better than you because I say so and I know I am better than you. What gives you the right to tell me which Mon is better?"

Cuz I mean, unless he's going to back up his claims of "I am better than you" with some sort of evidence, it just sounds like a lot of saber rattling, dick measuring jabber.

Or his point is that no evidence was provided in favor of why said Pokemon should be considered broken, and so he is ironically making similar, unsupported claims, for the sake of illustrating why you can't just say something without proof and expect people to believe you.

He says "Until you prove me otherwise" but what is there to prove? All he's said is "I have more experience than you" But that experience is . . . playing singles, watching other people play and "laddering"? There is nothing to disprove. It's all fluff talk and chest beating. How could one possibly go about disproving claims that haven't the slightest bit of concretion to them?

I can't prove that watching other people play this game has made you better than me at it. I could prove, maybe, that watching other people play a game shows a positive increase in ability, but how would I even measure that? Am I measuring just watching? Am I defining ability as victory, or by the number of units I did not lose, or length of match, or what?

This is all a lot of pompous poppy-cock about a video game. Regardless of his point, I think we can all agree that PK Gaming saying "my opinion is more valid than yours" without much in the way of qualifiers certainly sounds kinda dickish, at the very least.

The last point is the only point which has some sort point. I was only replied to Prof. Beef with vitriol because his post was similar in nature. I'd be more than willing to refute his post with a post of my own backed evidence + experience, but why should I be obligated to do that? After he arrogantly condemned an entire community? No way. Disrespect in private can be ignored, but disrespect in public requires is unacceptable.

PS: I'll admit I was being a dick, but I stand by what I said.

 

[Deleted member 13876]

I mentioned this before but it got ignored;;; You don't HAVE to play Smogon's OU to be into competitive Pokemon! I play Ubers (technically part of Smogon, but not really exclusive to it), which is a metagame where no Pokemon are banned. Hell, quite a few people argue that it's more balanced than OU at the moment! There's also VGC, which is Nintendo's official metagame. It's a doubles metagame too, for those of you who don't like Singles!

I don't think it matters if you like Smogon or not though (I do, but that's another story), because I think the main issue here is still IVs being a stupid barrier towards competitive play. It's either grind for ages to get a non garbage Pokemon (which goes against the spirit of the games), abuse the RNG (which X and Y will probably destroy), cheat (which is no good for obvious reasons), or be at a serious disadvantage in competitive play. This isn't like an MMO either. As some people put it, its sorta more like a fighting game. The kind of extreme breeding / soft resetting that IVs promote really makes competitive Pokemon a lot less accessible than it should be!

I think a simple solution to this problem is to just let us change IV values in some way. This way, competitive Pokemon becomes much more accessible, and cheating becomes far less commonplace!

I wouldn't mind it if they made you do minigames or other sorts of challenging in-game things to increase the IV's. It might not make sense, because of the genetics comparison but X and Y already has some genetic themes and they could easily introduce some pseudo-science that makes eugenics possible.

Theorymon only gets you so far.

He's calling you out Theorymon, are you just going to sit by and do nothing about that?

 

[Theorymon]

I wouldn't mind it if they made you do minigames or other sorts of challenging in-game things to increase the IV's. It might not make sense, because of the genetics comparison but X and Y already has some genetic themes and they could easily introduce some pseudo-science that makes eugenics possible.



He's calling you out Theorymon, are you just going to sit by and do nothing about that?

Yeah, I chose a sorta convenient name there .

Anyways, Minigames are fine too. I mean they do have the potential to get annoying... but anything that prevents the usual "THIS POKEMON I WORKED FOR IS GARBAGE " problem is way better than the status quo at the moment!

 

[Deleted member 13876]

Yeah, I chose a sorta convenient name there .

Anyways, Minigames are fine too. I mean they do have the potential to get annoying... but anything that prevents the usual "THIS POKEMON I WORKED FOR IS GARBAGE " problem is way better than the status quo at the moment!

I don't know if it would be the ideal solution, but just something in-game maybe a reasonable amount Battle Frontier points could be exchanged for them...Just something that hits a sweet spot of not being unreasonably hard to obtain, but still somewhat challenging.

 

[ColtraineGF]

I wouldn't mind it if they made you do minigames or other sorts of challenging in-game things to increase the IV's. It might not make sense, because of the genetics comparison but X and Y already has some genetic themes and they could easily introduce some pseudo-science that makes eugenics possible.

Hmm, genetic themes in XY could actually serve to be Game Freak's story based 'in' to let them provide a way to alter a Pokemon's IVs - probably through some sort of laboratory process or something.

That is, if they plan on letting you alter IVs post fact. Maybe, maybe not. Maybe they'll just add Battle Factory as an online battle option... *dreams*

 

[ZenaxPure]

because I think the main issue here is still IVs being a stupid barrier towards competitive play.

I agree that they are stupid, but, I also don't want to live in a world where pokemon have the exact same stats. It wouldn't matter too much as long as a given Pokemon had a lot of different opportunities to serve different roles (you want a bulky guy or a fast guy or a strong guy, etc) thanks to EVs, but, my fear comes from one Pokemon only having ONE legitimate use. Therefore all of that Pokemon you would come up against online would be entirely predictable, exact stats, move set, what to expect from him, etc. A lot of that lies on the game design side of things but IVs in their current form offer up some variety to the battles for people who aren't hacking Pokemon, but, again, the IV system is pretty dumb and needs an overhaul badly.

Comparing Pokemon to a fighting game is honestly not a comparison I personally like, fighting games are all about very few characters and knowing how to react to every single one of those perfectly. Pokemon has more opportunities that make it more unpredictable but not random (basically a bigger library of knowledge you have to consume, being able to adapt is key). Going into a fight not exactly knowing what to expect but still being able to adapt to the Pokemon your opponent is using is far more engaging to me than knowing every little detail about a smaller subset of Pokemon.

Honestly it's why I ditched any semblance of ultra competitive nature in the 5th gen and spent all of my time doing random online battles in the triple/rotation brackets. Way more exciting to me.

 

[Firestorm]

I agree that they are stupid, but, I also don't want to live in a world where pokemon have the exact same stats. It wouldn't matter too much as long as a given Pokemon had a lot of different opportunities to serve different roles (you want a bulky guy or a fast guy or a strong guy, etc) thanks to EVs, but, my fear comes from one Pokemon only having ONE legitimate use. Therefore all of that Pokemon you would come up against online would be entirely predictable, exact stats, move set, what to expect from him, etc. A lot of that lies on the game design side of things but IVs in their current form offer up some variety to the battles for people who aren't hacking Pokemon, but, again, the IV system is pretty dumb and needs an overhaul badly.

Comparing Pokemon to a fighting game is honestly not a comparison I personally like, fighting games are all about very few characters and knowing how to react to every single one of those perfectly. Pokemon has more opportunities that make it more unpredictable but not random (basically a bigger library of knowledge you have to consume, being able to adapt is key). Going into a fight not exactly knowing what to expect but still being able to adapt to the Pokemon your opponent is using is far more engaging to me than knowing every little detail about a smaller subset of Pokemon.

Honestly it's why I ditched any semblance of ultra competitive nature in the 5th gen and spent all of my time doing random online battles in the triple/rotation brackets. Way more exciting to me.

They really don't... The only IV that matters for customization is speed and maaaybbeee attack.

 

[Sigismundo]

A lot of that lies on the game design side of things but IVs in their current form offer up some variety to the battles for people who aren't hacking Pokemon, but, again, the IV system is pretty dumb and needs an overhaul badly.

Er, not really. Items and moves and Abilities do that, IVs are just 'I have the best stats for a given Pokémon or I don't' (unless you're running Trick Room)

 

[Boss Doggie]

Seems like people kinda skipped Gen V. Sad.

back when I played competitively I had hacked dittos of most natures with perfect ivs. sped up the breeding process by a ton. this was back in diamond and pearl.

haven't played competitively in years due to its obnoxious immature fanbase and what not. not because of the hacking. I had a bunch of online friends who is routinely battle anyway and we all hacked around the same amount.

Also smogon started banning to many pokemon and strategies. made everything to stifled.

That's from Gen IV too. As people said, Gen V really speed things a lot.

Also Smogon rules are only for 1 vs 1. Nowadays it's usually 2 vs 2.

All that's missing here is a complaint about Stealth Rocks lol

 

[backlot]

I hope XY will not be backward compatible. The 3DS is not yet hacked, and if XY are not backward compatible then cheaters will be entirely eliminated.

This is a bit of a naive mindset to have. Even if hacks are impossible on the 3DS, people are still going to try for perfect IV'd Pokemon. There will be people who spend a lot of time and very close. Getting up to four out of six perfect IV's with normal breeding is time consuming but entirely doable. The end result is that the competition will be the same but now the grinding is absolutely mandatory for everyone. The only difference is people won't be able to blame hackers when they lose.

 

[Ultima_5]

Seems like people kinda skipped Gen V. Sad.



That's from Gen IV too. As people said, Gen V really speed things a lot.

Also Smogon rules are only for 1 vs 1. Nowadays it's usually 2 vs 2.

All that's missing here is a complaint about Stealth Rocks lol

I played and loved gen 5. it's just around the time I passed out of competitive play. I'd love to get back into it next gen

and sr is great

Regardless of whether he did or didn't, you haven't actually responded to his point.

wasn't my argument. just saying we're not on gamefaqs and don't have to post like 13 year old pricks

 

[gosox333]

I don't personally mind IV's, I just think it's absolutely ridiculous that I have to use a DNS hack just to efficiently check them. It's disgusting how hidden they are.

 

[Dr.Palutena]

This is a bit of a naive mindset to have. Even if hacks are impossible on the 3DS, people are still going to try for perfect IV'd Pokemon. There will be people who spend a lot of time and very close. Getting up to four out of six perfect IV's with normal breeding is time consuming but entirely doable. The end result is that the competition will be the same but now the grinding is absolutely mandatory for everyone. The only difference is people won't be able to blame hackers when they lose.

There is also the fact there are like, actual non hacker non competitive player people like me, who spent a whole lot of time collecting all(well nearly all) the pokemon and/or have pokemon all the way from gen 3, that would be INCREDIBLY pissed if i couldnt transfer my pokemon because some people have their panties in a bunch over hackers or whatever. And I'm sure there are more people like me (or similar to me) than these hackers.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Yeah, Stealth Rock is a nice thing.

People say it's over-powered, but it's all about checks and balances. SR prevents stuff like Volcarona and Moltres from being overpowered.

 

[Deleted member 13876]

Really hate Stealth Rock as it just seems to invalidate types that are already struggling like Fire. I feel like weaknesses shouldn't apply like Spikes. It doesn't help that there aren't any other moves like it such as an electric entry hazard or whatever. I don't remember stuff like Moltres ever dominating even before the introduction of the move.

 

[Boogiepop]

I would actually kind of be interested to see what would happen if you just dumped a ton of new stealth rock-esque entry hazards for the other types into the metagame. Could be interesting.

Also, I feel like breeding just needs one more big push to be a solid, reliable, and not TOO painful means of getting good Pokemon. Like, if they could just allow us to fix one more IV in place I think that would be enough. What I've thought for a while is maybe if they did something like let us put an item/decoration or something in the daycare with the Pokemon, and then those could have hidden effects, including some like the power items. If they wanted to go all out, I could also see something like making it so if you had a Pokemon with super luck in your party (or something) when breeding then 31s will always be passed down.

Still, there's a few other things that are getting super annoying in terms of trying to legitimately play competitively. Of course one of those is legendaries/event Pokemon, because those are still left ENTIRELY at the mercy of the RNG. Can't chain breed those, making getting a competitive one through normal means practically impossible. Hence why Genesect is the only Pokemon I've RNG'd (and I honestly felt a little icky for it and really would prefer not to have to do it again).

Probably the biggest issue, though, is freaking hidden power. They really, really, really need to do something about it in X/Y, because you absolutely cannot legitimately get the hidden power you need for a competitive Pokemon. Pretty much ruins a ton of Pokemon for me when I realize that if I want one that's at all up to snuff with everyone else's I'd need to cheat it in. Yuck.

Oh, and they should probably do something about the Move Tutors. It's really starting to get ridiculous at this point, seeing as you need to breed some Pokemon in 10 year old games and then transfer them up the line if you want to use a particular move set. Maybe just make all the Move Tutors available again at least once, because it's getting pretty bad.

 

[Deleted member 13876]

Probably the biggest issue, though, is freaking hidden power. They really, really, really need to do something about it in X/Y, because you absolutely cannot legitimately get the hidden power you need for a competitive Pokemon. Pretty much ruins a ton of Pokemon for me when I realize that if I want one that's at all up to snuff with everyone else's I'd need to cheat it in. Yuck.

Oh, and they should probably do something about the Move Tutors. It's really starting to get ridiculous at this point, seeing as you need to breed some Pokemon in 10 year old games and then transfer them up the line if you want to use a particular move set. Maybe just make all the Move Tutors available again at least once, because it's getting pretty bad.

Hidden Power just shouldn't have the wide range of base power based on stats. Let some value decide what type of attack comes out, but set it at 70 for everyone otherwise.

 

[Madn]

Reading through this thread got me interested in competitive pokemon as I usually just played the story and then traded/fought with friends.
What's the best way to get started? Should I just jump into the online or is there something I should read before, like a wiki or something?

 

[backlot]

Probably the biggest issue, though, is freaking hidden power. They really, really, really need to do something about it in X/Y, because you absolutely cannot legitimately get the hidden power you need for a competitive Pokemon. Pretty much ruins a ton of Pokemon for me when I realize that if I want one that's at all up to snuff with everyone else's I'd need to cheat it in. Yuck.

Although I agree this is an issue, it is totally possible to get a good Hidden Power legitimately. I've done it myself a few times. You wouldn't believe the number of Pokemon with great IV's I've had to throw out because the Hidden Power was wrong.

 

[PK Gaming]

It's even more annoying when take legendary Pokemon into account. It's pretty much impossible to get a good Hidden Power type / value on legendary since they can't be bred. Which is interesting, since they're legal in tournaments. I think everyone (even TCPI) assumes that those Pokemon are RNGed.

 

[Wichu]

It's even more annoying when take legendary Pokemon into account. It's pretty much impossible to get a good Hidden Power type / value on legendary since they can't be breed. Which is interesting, since they're legal in tournaments. I think everyone (even TCPI) assumes that those Pokemon are RNGed.

When I checked my Latias I caught in Emerald ages ago, it turned out to have decent IVs, a Modest nature, and Hidden Power Fire 64. It's rare, but it does happen. In the newer games, with Synchronize being available, it's much easier to get a matching nature.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Reading through this thread got me interested in competitive pokemon as I usually just played the story and then traded/fought with friends.
What's the best way to get started? Should I just jump into the online or is there something I should read before, like a wiki or something?

Unfortunately, Smogon is down at the moment, but they have a load of excellent articles on their website and people are very helpful on their forums. There's also some good podcasts to be found on YouTube. If you want I can PM you a few starters.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Ahh I'm not too fond of Synchronize (other than its battle ability), but what does it do?

 

[backlot]

When I checked my Latias I caught in Emerald ages ago, it turned out to have decent IVs, a Modest nature, and Hidden Power Fire 64. It's rare, but it does happen. In the newer games, with Synchronize being available, it's much easier to get a matching nature.

I don't know, 64 is pretty low. 70 is already a low base power without STAB and I don't think I'd want to sacrifice even that much power. It's definitely harder to get a good legendary than a bred Pokemon without abusing the RNG.

 

[PK Gaming]

When I checked my Latias I caught in Emerald ages ago, it turned out to have decent IVs, a Modest nature, and Hidden Power Fire 64. It's rare, but it does happen. In the newer games, with Synchronize being available, it's much easier to get a matching nature.

Unfortunately, quite a few legendary Pokemon use specialized IV spreads and the odds of getting the right IV spread at max power are extremely slim. If you take a look VGC champions download teams, a few of them use Hidden Power (all of which are at max power).

None of the tournament players sit around spending all day soft resetting for the ideal Hidden Power / IV spread. Especially when you take into account how many legendary Poekmon are used, and the various Hidden Power options that are available. It's an ugly truth, but it's there.

 

[ffdgh]

Ahh I'm not too fond of Synchronize (other than its battle ability), but what does it do?

More likely to find Pokemon with the same nature as your lead Pokemon with said ability. 50%

 

[Boss Doggie]

More likely to find Pokemon with the same nature as your lead Pokemon with said ability. 50%

Ahh neat. I always thought it was only used for Sigilyph fighting lol

 

[Firestorm]

Reading through this thread got me interested in competitive pokemon as I usually just played the story and then traded/fought with friends.
What's the best way to get started? Should I just jump into the online or is there something I should read before, like a wiki or something?

Wrote this for players who wanted to enter their first tournaments. Hopefully it's helpful!

http://nuggetbridge.com/beginners/introduction-to-competitive-pokemon/

 

[Holy Order Sol]

n of the same species would be identical until you added EVs and that is unacceptable.

I don't see a problem with that. I want control, even if I have to earn it in-game.

 

[PreyingShark]

Although I agree this is an issue, it is totally possible to get a good Hidden Power legitimately. I've done it myself a few times. You wouldn't believe the number of Pokemon with great IV's I've had to throw out because the Hidden Power was wrong.

Recently I was breeding Timid Eevee. I bred one with 4 31s, DW ability, and good IVs for the other two spots.

"HP Ghost"

I cried.

 

[Madn]

Wrote this for players who wanted to enter their first tournaments. Hopefully it's helpful!

http://nuggetbridge.com/beginners/introduction-to-competitive-pokemon/

Thanks! I'll give it a read

 

[TheSeks]

That's pretty far from the truth to be honest. There are so many different builds/setups/synergies you can make with how many Pokemon there are at this point that you can't predict everything. There is a reason places like Smogon are constantly re-evaluating the tier of specific Pokemon, because there is just so many different things going on. The deep meta game is built more on flavor of the month than anything else.

It's pretty common to see Pokemon not normally listed as the best pop up in official tournaments and suddenly they become super popular (IIRC Roserade is a really damn good example of this).

The competitive Pokemon scene is exactly what you wish it was, a place for people to come up with creative ideas and use crazy teams. A fight is SIGNIFICANTLY harder when someone is using their own custom made team as opposed a FOTM setup, it's way harder to predict their actions.

Considering how much stuff they've rehauled lately, lolno

VGC (doubles) is one of the most respectable formats around, and the only one that's seriously played on a national level. Competitive pokemon is pretty damn balanced if you ask me.

Competitive Pokemon is still very much a skill based game. The weaker player usually loses to the stronger player.

Enlighten me. How is the game not anything but Skizor, Garchomp, etc. "OU" in competitive Pokemon? I'm sure you're going to go "but you can use UU, borderlines, etc.!" But you're missing my point: The "Overused/OU" Pokemon are what 99% of battles are going to be because that's the cold, hard math and why Competitive Pokemon is a joke. When you break down EV/IV and movesets and show what happens, it stops being "fun" or impressive.

Oh, sure you have different formats and that's nice and all but I'm talking old-school one-on-one solo/no-teams Pokemon. Yeah, you can have Raindance/Baton-pass/etc. etc. etc. synergies but again: cold, hard math breaks the game down to the point where there is little to no surprises anymore.

I think the only time I've been surprised since Gen 3 is FEAR Rattata, simply because no one thought of that at the time. Anything else has been a number/calculation game.

 

[Firestorm]

Enlighten me. How is the game not anything but Skizor, Garchomp, etc. "OU" in competitive Pokemon? I'm sure you're going to go "but you can use UU, borderlines, etc.!" But you're missing my point: The "Overused/OU" Pokemon are what 99% of battles are going to be because that's the cold, hard math and why Competitive Pokemon is a joke. When you break down EV/IV and movesets and show what happens, it stops being "fun" or impressive.

Oh, sure you have different formats and that's nice and all but I'm talking old-school one-on-one solo/no-teams Pokemon. Yeah, you can have Raindance/Baton-pass/etc. etc. etc. synergies but again: cold, hard math breaks the game down to the point where there is little to no surprises anymore.

I think the only time I've been surprised since Gen 3 is FEAR Rattata, simply because no one thought of that at the time. Anything else has been a number/calculation game.

So you're trying to play the game competitively with made up rules and are complaining that the game isn't balanced for the format they actually do balancing for. Ok.

I on the other hand will continue to be surprised by new things like the Sunny Day Tyranitar that won the Japanese National Championships last week.

 

[PK Gaming]

Enlighten me. How is the game not anything but Skizor, Garchomp, etc. "OU" in competitive Pokemon? I'm sure you're going to go "but you can use UU, borderlines, etc.!" But you're missing my point: The "Overused/OU" Pokemon are what 99% of battles are going to be because that's the cold, hard math and why Competitive Pokemon is a joke. When you break down EV/IV and movesets and show what happens, it stops being "fun" or impressive.

Oh, sure you have different formats and that's nice and all but I'm talking old-school one-on-one solo/no-teams Pokemon. Yeah, you can have Raindance/Baton-pass/etc. etc. etc. synergies but again: cold, hard math breaks the game down to the point where there is little to no surprises anymore.

I think the only time I've been surprised since Gen 3 is FEAR Rattata, simply because no one thought of that at the time. Anything else has been a number/calculation game.

Do you have a problem with people using the best characters in a fighting game? It's basically the same thing. The best Pokemon are used at high level play, but Pokemon is a game that allows you to experiment with teams so there's definitely some variety. Unorthodox strategy is definitely viable in a competitive environment. (and even encouraged) If you think that OU is just Garchomp / Scizor / etc, then I can safely say you're wrong. There dozens of strategies that exist in just OU (Rain Dance, Sand, Hail, Sun, Stall, Rain stall, Sand Stall, Sun Stall, Heavy Offense, Dual Screen and Trick Room) and believing in such an outdated mindset will just limit you as a player.

And at the end of the day, it's just OU. I can't even say it's a good format (its not, trust me) and there are tons of other formats that offer even more flexibility than OU. VGCs is a format that's played on a national level and has way more balance / flexibility in teams.

Also, math and team makeup are only a part of the game. You definitely can't go into every match and say "oh well they're running X team. Guess I win/lose now!" There's definitely an element of prediction and skill involved in most battles. You can't "solve" Pokemon by being good at Math, lol.

 

[Dice]

Make the game mechanics less obtuse to get competitive Pokemon then. I heard X/Y will make things like IV's and EV's more transparent, that's a start. But I'll sooner hack up some legal Pokemon or use a battle simulator to enjoy the metagame, as opposed to wasting my time breeding (or messing with RNG, admittedly never bothered with it) when I could be spending my time battling and team building. Then again I never played in any official tournaments, so I wasn't hurting anyone else. I used my hacked pokemon against other people's hacked pokemon lol.

Really it all comes down to . . .

YYYUUUP

Pokemon was/is fairly popular as a card game for a reason. The battle system is nice for simply playing off the concepts. The IV system is just a ridiculous time-wasting obstacle to get the team strategy you want to try out. I don't think it justifies cheating in a tournament, but I totally get why people would want to bypass this system but still enjoy the battle gameplay.

Then again, I wouldn't say Game Freak/Nintendo has been very discerning in general about why and how serious fans enjoy Pokemon and where they should take the series in view of it. They honestly seem pretty dense.