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MS confirms indie program for XB1, was a big GamesCom surprise, angry at GI for leak

S

Satchel

Banned
Warm Machine said:
It is impossible that it is reactionary. Tools and infrastructure don't suddenly get made on a whim.
Click to expand...

We've already had "insiders" saying these plans were in the works last years.

The reactionary thing is strange to me. Especially when it relates to the software/hardware of a console.

Do people think these consoles are planned/designed/manufactured in the space of a few months or something?
 
G

GillianSeed79

Member
I wonder if they'll still charge indie devs an arm and a leg to patch their games?

This is good news nonetheless. Basically, what kept me from even considering an Xbox One was the DRM, 24-hour check-in, only being able to sell games to selected retailers, the price and no indie self-publishing.

With all their back tracking, it's seems like the only reason I won't buy an Xbox One right now is price. I'll be picking up a PS4 at launch because of the $100 price difference, but I'll definitely consider picking up an Xbox One now sooner than later.

I still think Sony will have an edge at the start when it comes to indie games, since they've been courting indie developers more. MS seemed liked they were ignoring them. Even if they do allow full-on self publishing, if their certification process and patching process is still as restrictive as the 360 I could see a lot of indies not even bothering.

I wonder if all the complaints indie devs have with Steam's greenlight process will mean more of them will opt to release first on consoles next gen or support them more next gen? I'm sure Steam and their own sites are where they make their most money, but hasn't their been a lot of grumbling about greenlight recently?
 
X

x3sphere

Member
BleachAndPepsi said:
I hope you're right as far as indie devs not simply forgiving and forgetting, if only to let Microsoft know they'd better not reneg on any of this shit. But I have a feeling Xbox will remain the premier console for indie devs and North American gamers.

As much as we may talk about how much they've fucked up, one look around the Internet shows gamers are quick to forgive and the goodwill pendulum has swung firmly back to their side. It doesn't matter how bad they fucked up, as long as they quickly burn those shitty plans and pretend they never happened.
Click to expand...

XB1 is very likely to still sell well, as an indie developer it'd be silly to ignore that market just because you have a grudge with past actions by MS. Sending a message by neglecting the XB1 might hurt MS a little, but you'd hurt consumers and your fans more. Just embrace that MS is changing its policies and move on. More competition is good for everyone.
 
S

soul creator

Member
killer rin said:
...They aren't using Devkits for indies. Its like how you do it on XBLI, WP and W8. You pay $100, give them your device ID and they unlock the DevTools in addition to allowing you to put the games on the store.
Click to expand...

...er, I know? The part you quoted from me is referring to their current, pre-launch plans, which doesn't have "self-publishing" or "using your retail Xbox One as a devkit". Right now, you still have to use specially made devkits to make Xbox One games, which is why only existing publishers are making games for it, and there's no "indie" presence at launch.

In the future, once the infrastructure you mentioned is up and running, then yes, that's what indies (and shit, maybe even full publishers) will be using. For example, I don't think EA uses a bunch of special-case, customized Apple hardware for iOS games (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). They use the same things I can buy in the store. Maybe they get special support benefits or something, I dunno, but hardware-wise it's all standard stuff available to anyone who wants to pay the $100 fee.
 
R

RadarScope1

Member
BleachAndPepsi said:
I hope you're right as far as indie devs not simply forgiving and forgetting, if only to let Microsoft know they'd better not reneg on any of this shit. But I have a feeling Xbox will remain the premier console for indie devs and North American gamers.

As much as we may talk about how much they've fucked up, one look around the Internet shows gamers are quick to forgive and the goodwill pendulum has swung firmly back to their side. It doesn't matter how bad they fucked up, as long as they quickly burn those shitty plans and pretend they never happened.
Click to expand...
I don't want devs to be vindictive or anything. If they have a good environment to develop in, they should run with it. They'd be crazy to stay away just to prove some kind of point.

But what I'm saying is they will stay away for a while because no one at MS seems to care. MS is going to have to woo some people like this back. I don't agree that Xbox the premier console for indie devs. Other than State of Decay XBLA has been pretty much a wasteland since Mark of the Ninja came out almost a year ago. Meanwhile the Playstation ecosystem is on fire will solid indie stuff. And it looks like its about to get bigger in the first year of PS4's life cycle.

(Unless maybe you're talking about XBLIG, then, yeah lots of quantity there. But all so shitty. It doesn't count in my mind.)
 
W

Whiteshirt

Member
Satchel said:
We've already had "insiders" saying these plans were in the works last years.

The reactionary thing is strange to me. Especially when it relates to the software/hardware of a console.

Do people think these consoles are planned/designed/manufactured in the space of a few months or something?
Click to expand...

Well most of what Microsoft is doing seems to be like this since literally nothing is working at launch or requires a day one patch. From the Family Sharing plan to their "all Xbox One systems are dev kits" to the day one patch to presumably remove the day one bullshit, etc etc.

So I'm not surprised they look reactionary/
 
J

jbug617

Banned
GillianSeed79 said:
I wonder if they'll still charge indie devs an arm and a leg to patch their games?
Click to expand...

They haven't charge for a patch since earlier this year.

Retro City Rampage creator still seems upset and won't work on Xbox One. He made assumptions in his response (separate store and ties into Windows 8).
 
F

Fushichou187

Member
jcm said:
I don't see why that's a concern. Every windows PC is a dev machine, and that's not an issue.
Click to expand...

I don't think that analogy quite reaches far enough to encompass a closed piece of kit like the PS4. Sony takes on sole responsibility for the hardware and software running on its system. Even Macs aren't as closed as a console system in that I could write up a program to be launched on OSX and could completely fuck over my computer, yet couldn't whine to Apple since the development and testing of the program was independent of Apple's oversight process. If console makers are going to allow their off-the-shelf SKUs the ability to go into devkit mode or whatever, I'm just saying that they'll still likely need to put in place a number of hoops that a would-be developer would have to jump through in order to access that ability so as to mitigate unintended bricking, etc...
 
M

miDnIghtEr20C

Banned
BleachAndPepsi said:
And that has what exactly to do with the topic we were discussing? I said we still don't have many confirmed specs on Xbone. You said this:



I said there's no way they're adjusting this late in the game. I then said the only hints we have on the console's guts are from a Reddit AMA and some MS PR folks saying numbers don't matter.

What does the Wii have to do with this? Why the deflection and change of subject? I never once said more power = more sales.

The only reason I can think of for this kind of switch is to try to score a "point" for your "team." If that's the case, please don't. We're both better than that.
Click to expand...

because if specs are finalized... then oh well. People are going to enjoy some great games regardless for the X1.... just like they enjoyed some great games on the way less powerful Wii.
 
M

miDnIghtEr20C

Banned
bobbytkc said:
This is great. The competition is really heating up.
Click to expand...

I too like that both sides are heating up!

This guy gets it!

boomBOOM.gif
 
S

Satchel

Banned
Whiteshirt said:
Well most of what Microsoft is doing seems to be like this since literally nothing is working at launch or requires a day one patch. From the Family Sharing plan to their "all Xbox One systems are dev kits" to the day one patch to presumably remove the day one bullshit, etc etc.

So I'm not surprised they look reactionary/
Click to expand...

you made 2 different points sound like 5. Good job.

The only thing we know with 100% certainty was changed recently was the DRM/Family plan.

Even that was changed 6 months before launch given they've said it will take time to fix.
 
B

BleachAndPepsi

Banned
x3sphere said:
XB1 is very likely to still sell well, as an indie developer it'd be silly to ignore that market just because you have a grudge with past actions by MS. Sending a message by neglecting the XB1 might hurt MS a little, but you'd hurt consumers and your fans more. Just embrace that MS is changing its policies and move on. More competition is good for everyone.
Click to expand...
I don't want anyone to be vindictive. I guess I'm still concerned they're going to go back on their word or they just aren't telling us something. Once bitten, twice shy, I suppose.


RadarScope1 said:
I don't want devs to be vindictive or anything. If they have a good environment to develop in, they should run with it. They'd be crazy to stay away just to prove some kind of point.

But what I'm saying is they will stay away for a while because no one at MS seems to care. MS is going to have to woo some people like this back. I don't agree that Xbox the premier console for indie devs. Other than State of Decay XBLA has been pretty much a wasteland since Mark of the Ninja came out almost a year ago. Meanwhile the Playstation ecosystem is on fire will solid indie stuff. And it looks like its about to get bigger in the first year of PS4's life cycle.

(Unless maybe you're talking about XBLIG, then, yeah lots of quantity there. But all so shitty. It doesn't count in my mind.)
Click to expand...


They'll woo them back with cash. I'm not saying that to be facetious either. They specifically talked about spending a billion dollars to secure exclusives, didn't they? I'd imagine some indies might be seeing some of that phat cash.
 
X

x3sphere

Member
Fushichou187 said:
I don't think that analogy quite reaches far enough to encompass a closed piece of kit like the PS4. Sony takes on sole responsibility for the hardware and software running on its system. Even Macs aren't as closed as a console system in that I could write up a program to be launched on OSX and could completely fuck over my computer, yet couldn't whine to Apple since the development and testing of the program was independent of Apple's oversight process. If console makers are going to allow their off-the-shelf SKUs the ability to go into devkit mode or whatever, I'm just saying that they'll still likely need to put in place a number of hoops that a would-be developer would have to jump through in order to access that ability so as to mitigate unintended bricking, etc...
Click to expand...

The process of just registering your console ID is enough, I'm sure -- you'll likely have to visit an external site to start the process. Also, developers aren't given free reign over system internals, even on actual dev kits. On PS360 any apps built with the official SDK are restricted from messing with any important firmware bits, you couldn't brick it that way even if you wanted to.
 
U

Usobuko

Banned
Great news for indies.

The interesting factor for them now is whether Microsoft is going all out in securing exclusives in contrast with how large the gap between the PS4 and Xbox One will be if the former is supposed to lead in sales.
 
R

RadarScope1

Member
BleachAndPepsi said:
They'll woo them back with cash. I'm not saying that to be facetious either. They specifically talked about spending a billion dollars to secure exclusives, didn't they? I'd imagine some indies might be seeing some of that phat cash.
Click to expand...
Yep, they'll certainly do that. I guess I didn't consider dropping a lot of $$ on indie exclusives. Could happen. Thing about the indie scene is the breadth of it, though. They have to careful about picking winners if they're going to drop dough. It's kinda like scouting in baseball.
 
B

BleachAndPepsi

Banned
boredandlazy said:
Until Microsoft actually implement their new 'vision', they still are. :)
Click to expand...
So by next year, they'll be where Sony is now with self publishing, then the year after that (maybe), we'll start to see the funky fresh fruits of their latest 180. Wonder what initiatives with indie devs Sony will unveil by then (if any).

henhowc said:
The timing of it/all the events leading up to it. Why hide this from everyone else while Sony is building up all this good press and some well known indies are trashing you in the media?

That and the "We have this awesome thing! sorry not at launch though." Sony is in a similar position with Gakai.
Click to expand...
I can understand Gaikai a bit more though (no matter how disappointing the wait is). You're building up a multi-multi-million dollar server farm to allow streamed game content. The logistics of it sound much deeper than just saying, "Sure indie devs, come publish on our platform, no strings attached!"

Which makes me think we aren't getting all the info here.
 
W

Whiteshirt

Member
Satchel said:
you made 2 different points sound like 5. Good job.

The only thing we know with 100% certainty was changed recently was the DRM/Family plan.

Even that was changed 6 months before launch given they've said it will take time to fix.
Click to expand...

What we know for certain is that they're "still working on" just about every feature or policy change they touted because that's what devs and Microsoft have been saying. Its pretty close to launch yet it is uncertain whether or not any of these policies will be implemented by the launch period.

If they had changed their policies regarding things like certification, they'd be able to say that they've changed for the better rather than say that they're working with the World of Tanks developers to try and improve the current implementation.

That's why they look reactionary. Nothing is actually implemented or in place. The same goes for Sony. Gaikai isn't even implemented yet so who is to say that the implementation will not end up being different from what we are told to expect? Are we to expect that there won't be bear traps from a company that has a history of putting bear traps everywhere?
 
RedAssedApe

RedAssedApe

Banned
Satchel said:
We've already had "insiders" saying these plans were in the works last years.

The reactionary thing is strange to me. Especially when it relates to the software/hardware of a console.

Do people think these consoles are planned/designed/manufactured in the space of a few months or something?
Click to expand...

The timing of it/all the events leading up to it. Why hide this from everyone else while Sony is building up all this good press and some well known indies are trashing you in the media?

That and the "We have this awesome thing! sorry not at launch though." Sony is in a similar position with Gakai.
 
S

Satchel

Banned
henhowc said:
The timing of it/all the events leading up to it. Why hide this from everyone else while Sony is building up all this good press and some well known indies are trashing you in the media?

That and the "We have this awesome thing! sorry not at launch though." Sony is in a similar position with Gakai.
Click to expand...

Because sometimes companies stick to a set plan regardless?

Crazy i know.
 
J

Jobbs

Banned
I must say, I never planned to buy an xbone -- I'm firmly in the PS4 camp -- but if they make it easy and cheap for indies to develop for, moreso than ps4, then I may have to get one.
 
N

Nilaul

Member
I assume those people using their own xbone as a dev kit would work in a sand boxed environment? As to avoid piracy, hacks and bricking.
 
P

prwxv3

Member
Anyways good for indies but I am waiting until there is no confirmed catch. The family plan fiasco and the fact that this program is not at launch makes me believe that there is a catch. Hope I am wrong
 
F

ferr

Member
Nilaul said:
I assume those people using their own xbone as a dev kit would work in a sand boxed environment? As to avoid piracy and hacks.
Click to expand...

You won't be seeing people pushing out apps on their own, MS will have an approval process. Just as with Android phones/iPhones where every phone is a dev kit.
 
RedAssedApe

RedAssedApe

Banned
Satchel said:
Because sometimes companies stick to a set plan regardless?

Crazy i know.
Click to expand...

And sometimes companies change their plans based on feedback. DDR5 :D
I was just answering your question as I feel its pretty simple why some people think this was reactionary. We could argue both sides til we blue in the face.
 
N

Nilaul

Member
ferr said:
You won't be seeing people pushing out apps on their own, MS will have an approval process. Just as with Android phones/iPhones where every phone is a dev kit.
Click to expand...

And there's nothing stopping you from downloading and unofficial app on your phone in android.
 
O

oVerde

Banned
Well, guess GamesCom has something to me then. Let's see how awesome will be that devkit plan, this might have a chance to change some courses for my game, or not.
 
Chobel

Chobel

Member
Nilaul said:
I assume those people using their own xbone as a dev kit would work in a sand boxed environment? As to avoid piracy, hacks and bricking.
Click to expand...

I think so; but that contradicts what marc whitten in giantbomb interview about having full access to the Xbox one hardware, so we'll have to wait for further updates.
 
P

prwxv3

Member
BRocknRolla said:
Yikes there's some scathing commentary in their from devs. Can't say I know anything about working with MS, but they paint a bleak picture.
Click to expand...

MS has to earn indie devs trust back But the fact that this program is not at launch and they have been dodgy regarding indies and self publishing before this announcement does not help. You can't earn their trust easily just buy saying "we have something you guys but it won't be at launch".
 
B

BigDug13

Member
prwxv3 said:
MS has to earn indie devs trust back But the fact that this program is not at launch and they have been dodgy regarding indies and self publishing before this announcement does not help. You can't earn their trust easily just buy saying "we have something you guys but it won't be at launch".
Click to expand...

And it seems weird that they've been so quiet about it and now they're pissed at GI for leaking it. Probably because it didn't go through their PR filter to try to spin all of it to be some sort of massive revelation that trumps Sony's years of effort towards indie devs to announce a system that should be up and running sometime next year.
 
B

BRocknRolla

Member
prwxv3 said:
MS has to earn indie devs trust back But the fact that this program is not at launch and they have been dodgy regarding indies and self publishing before this announcement does not help. You can't earn their trust easily just buy saying "we have something you guys but it won't be at launch".
Click to expand...

True. Words aren't worth a whole lot at this stage with all of MS's movement back and forth on various topics. I think it was telling to see several say, "We'll wait to see the fine print," as though there's something of a consensus belief that there's likely something more to it. It's going to be tough to message either way I'm sure, and I'm uncertain MS PR is up to the task.

coma1138 said:
So dumb if they allow these games to have achievements.
Click to expand...

I thought this too. How many "pay for achievement" games will end up on the service? How will MS try to curate those out? How do you create concrete guidelines for something like that? Add that to the whole "Games can add more achievements" idea, and I feel like that economy is going to be out of control. I'd hate to be the person trying to keep that system on an even keel.
 
B

BigDug13

Member
BRocknRolla said:
I thought this too. How many "pay for achievement" games will end up on the service? How will MS try to curate those out? How do you create concrete guidelines for something like that? Add that to the whole "Games can add more achievements" idea, and I feel like that economy is going to be out of control. I'd hate to be the person trying to keep that system on an even keel.
Click to expand...

Economy? Can you trade your gamer score for items or something?
 
B

BRocknRolla

Member
BigDug13 said:
Economy? Can you trade your gamer score for items or something?
Click to expand...

No, I more mean the "value" that people attribute to their gamer score. That creates an economy of sorts where people are willing to put in time and effort to get achievements. As it stands, it's an economy that has a pretty clear structure in games. If the structure breaks down, the "value" of the gamer score will change too, and I would imagine in a negative way.

For the record, I think achievement scores have both literally and figuratively no value, but they do matter a lot to some people.
 
C

coma1138

Banned
It has the potential to ruin the community that this generation they did a pretty great job of building, which sucks. If they go through with it, hopefully it's highly regulated, and the games are limited to like 50G max or something.
 
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