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[Joeytj]

Aang already had the ability to go into the avatar state even before mastering all the elements. While I wouldn't say he "mastered" elements per se, he would learn bending a lot quicker than Korra ever did. Hell, he basically became a fire bending masters in ONE episode "The Firebending Masters'.

So I don't really understand why people rag on Korra so much for getting everything so easy. Especially when the plot takes place in her late teens (where she already had training). Although I do agree there is some conflict in continuity. For instance, most babies don't know they are the avatar. And they aren't told till they are 16. The fact that Korra could bend three elements as a kid was goofy, and feels kind out of place with Avatar.

Even the ending where Aang gives her all her powers back, how many times in Avatar did the Avatar State basically act as a cure all for Aang? It happens quite often in Avatar.

EDIT: I do agree with those saying she didn't "learn" what was actually important though. However, isn't that apart of her character? Aang was a monk, so it makes sense he was more willing to be in touch with what really mattered. He was much more introspective. That might explain why he could go into the Avatar state even before mastering it, and Korra could never do so (because she didn't know how to get in touch with her spiritual side). But you guys are right about the fact that, she spent all that time training - and yet her personality traits don't really line up with someone that went through all that training. For instance, her suggesting that they cheat at the pro-bending match seems out of line with an Avatar.

Not really, since when it comes to how Avatars behave, we only know what Aang would do. We can reasonably believe what Roku would've done, but less so than Aang. We barely know anything about Kyoshi, Kuruk WOULD'VE cheated, you can bet, and Avatar Susan...ahem, Yangchen, probably would've not even bothered with pro-bending haha. Avatar Wan's story is a very exciting thing to look forward to in Book 2 precisely because we will see how the Avatar Spirit choses who can be the Avatar or who can't, if it choses at all, and if it can get it wrong.

But, I think we do depend too much on Aang for what we expect from an Avatar, and I think that Korra is Bryan and Mike's way of saying that most definitely not all Avatars are like Aang, or that the only way to be a great Avatar is to be an Airbender one.

 

[TacticalFox88]

Another issue that seems to not get mentioned.

The creators went WAY out of their way to beat it over our heads that "HEY! This is DIFFERENT than ATLA! DIFFERENCES! SEE?! DIFFERENCES!"

Ugh. It's like they were afraid of ANY similiarities

 

[Mononoke]

Not really, since when it comes to how Avatars behave, we only know what Aang would do. We can reasonably believe what Roku would've done, but less so than Aang. We barely know anything about Kyoshi, Kuruk WOULD'VE cheated, you can bet, and Avatar Susan...ahem, Yangchen, probably would've not even bothered with pro-bending haha. Avatar Wan's story is a very exciting thing to look forward to in Book 2 precisely because we will see how the Avatar Spirit choses who can be the Avatar or who can't, if it choses at all, and if it can get it wrong.

But, I think we do depend too much on Aang for what we expect from an Avatar, and I think that Korra is Bryan and Mike's way of saying that most definitely not all Avatars are like Aang, or that the only way to be a great Avatar is to be an Airbender one.

That last line was kind of an unfair statement to make. But I said that not based on personality (which I admit is different for each Avatar) -- but rather, with all of Korra's training, I think it's kind of sad that an Avatar would openly suggest that as a first line of action. But I guess it was always apart of Korra's traits, that she didn't really take to the deeper side of what it meant to be an Avatar (they suggest this is in the pilot episode, where they say her training has only been great on the physical aspect of bending, and not the spiritual).

 

[Zoramon089]

That last line was kind of an unfair statement to make. But I said that not based on personality (which I admit is different for each Avatar) -- but rather, with all of Korra's training, I think it's kind of sad that an Avatar would openly suggest that as a first line of action.

Since when is the avatar some infallible super righteous character? Just because Aang was to an extent doesn't meant they all have to be. Not to mention I'm not sure why you'd want another character like that. Korra is much more exciting

 

[Unspeakable Evil]

I didn't hate it. However, given that they knew they were limited on time to flesh out the Amon/Relationship/Character plots, they shouldn't have spent as much time on the pro-bending stuff as they did.

Just my opinion, of course.

EDIT: Supposedly these are the first 3 episode titles:

Spoiler

First #LegendOfKorra Book 2 episode titles:

"Rebel Spirit"
"The Southern Lights"
"Civil Wars (Parts 1 & 2)

Although it was posted by this: https://twitter.com/nickandmore/status/366995896086433795

Not really the most reliable source.

They actually are! They got the final episode titles for Book 1 right. They apparently were able to take a pick at Nick's schedule for September. Source: DongfuFeng.net

Good news

 

[Mononoke]

Since when is the avatar some infallible super righteous character? Just because Aang was to an extent doesn't meant they all have to be. Not to mention I'm not sure why you'd want another character like that. Korra is much more exciting

I don't know. I guess not all of them are.

I just thought, given that she was trained from a much earlier age - and was being taught by the best, at this point in the avatar cycle there would be more emphasis on the deeper aspects of being an avatar incorporated into their training.

Would make sense, you know. I'm not trying to argue that all the Avatar's have the same personality. Hell, even in Aang's plot it was clearly shown that in all of his past lives, each of them would do things differently. But whatever, my point about the pro bending cheating thing was a dumb thing to say. I admit.

 

[Veelk]

Hell, he basically became a fire bending masters in ONE episode "The Firebending Masters'.

He didnt. In the very next episode, both zuko and toph said that he still had things to learn with both firebending and earthbending. I think the writers just didnt want the pacing of the show to be shot so they had them pick things up quicker than would be realistic - not just aang but katara and sokka mastering waterbending and swordsmanship over one day - but they didnt mean to imply they were already masters.

For instance, most babies don't know they are the avatar. And they aren't told till they are 16. The fact that Korra could bend three elements as a kid was goofy, and feels kind out of place with Avatar.

Thats actually perfectly fine. Korra is naturally stubborn and driven, and the idea of being the avatar would obviously intrigued her. With these things going on, its perfectly plaisible that she could discover her abilities early on.

Even the ending where Aang gives her all her powers back, how many times in Avatar did the Avatar State basically act as a cure all for Aang? It happens quite often in Avatar.

Uh....once, in the korra flashback when aang was knocked unconcious by yakone. The avatar state never healed aang of anything in tla.

EDIT: I do agree with those saying she didn't "learn" what was actually important though. However, isn't that apart of her character? Aang was a monk, so it makes sense he was more willing to be in touch with what really mattered. He was much more introspective. That might explain why he could go into the Avatar state even before mastering it, and Korra could never do so (because she didn't know how to get in touch with her spiritual side).

Technically, she is a monk too, by virtue of being an airbender and being taught at tenzins temple. She just sucks at it.

 

[Mononoke]

He didnt. In the very next episode, both zuko and toph said that he still had things to learn with both firebending and earthbending. I think the writers just didnt want the pacing of the show to be shot so they had them pick things up quicker than would be realistic - not just aang but katara and sokka mastering waterbending and swordsmanship over one day - but they didnt mean to imply they were already masters.



Thats actually perfectly fine. Korra is naturally stubborn and driven, and the idea of being the avatar would obviously intrigued her. With these things going on, its perfectly plaisible that she could discover her abilities early on.



Uh....once, in the korra flashback when aang was knocked unconcious by yakone. The avatar state never healed aang of anything in tla.



Technically, she is a monk too, by virtue of being an airbender and being taught at tenzins temple. She just sucks at it.

While he technically didn't become a master, he still became really good at it. My point ultimately was, Aang would learn how to bend elements relatively quick, especially given the limited time he was under. So outside of Korra being able to bend elements as a child (which is also not mastering) - it's kind of unfair to say she got everything easy.

The hardest part for Aang was having to find the trainers. But once he started training he was quick at it. Plus he had the benefit of having the avatar state before even mastering his other elements.

I wasn't saying the avatar state ever healed Aang. But it allowed him to do epic things when he really needed it (like the Season 1 finale, that basically ended the entire fight outside of the Water Tribe). So the fact that Aang + the Avatar state healed her blocked chi pathways, doesn't really strike me as being that far off from Aang using the Avatar state + the water spirit to become a 100 foot monster. In the end, it's just another example of the Avtar state being a powerful mechanism that aids the avatar.

Plus, when you really think about it, the idea that Amon could REALLY take away bending by using the blood to block chi paths, is silly. I buy that he could do that. But I don't buy the idea that someone couldn't reverse it if they knew how. Unlike Aang, I don't think Amon was actually energy bending, he was abusing his sub-bending to use it a different way.

 

[Veelk]

Another issue that seems to not get mentioned.

The creators went WAY out of their way to beat it over our heads that "HEY! This is DIFFERENT than ATLA! DIFFERENCES! SEE?! DIFFERENCES!"

Ugh. It's like they were afraid of ANY similiarities

If they wanted something that was completely different, they should have stared a new show. You can change what are basically established laws of physics because you have a new set of characters

 

[Veelk]

While he technically didn't become a master, he still became really good at it. My point ultimately was, Aang would learn how to bend elements relatively quick, especially given the limited time he was under. So outside of Korra being able to bend elements as a child (which is also not mastering) - it's kind of unfair to say she got everything easy.

The hardest part for Aang was having to find the trainers. But once he started training he was quick at it. Plus he had the benefit of having the avatar state before even mastering his other elements.

Katara got really good at waterbending in a day too. Sokka got really good at fighting in a day with suki's training, learned mechanical engineering in a day, and learned swordsmanship in a day. Zuko learned lightning redirect in a single day. Aang learning his element training in a single day isnt impressive since everyone he meets is apparently a prodigy at whatever they try.

So lime i said, i think for the sake of pacing, they just compressed what would be a few months training into a single day, not just for aang, but everyone.

Also, he codnt use the avatar state. It was an involentary reaction. That was the whole point of the season 2 journey

 

[Mononoke]

Katara got really good at waterbending in a day too. Sokka got really good at fighting in a day with suki's training, learned mechanical engineering in a day, and learned swordsmanship in a day. Zuko learned lightning redirect in a single day. Aang learning his element training in a single day isnt impressive since everyone he meets is apparently a prodigy at whatever they try.

So lime i said, i think for the sake of pacing, they just compressed what would be a few months training into a single day, not just for aang, but everyone

I agree with you there. People that criticize Korra for moving to fast (which it did), sometimes forget that those writing elements were also in Avatar (the examples you pointed out).

 

[Mononoke]

https://twitter.com/LegendofKorraWp/status/36754080104513536

 

[obijkenobi]

While he technically didn't become a master, he still became really good at it. My point ultimately was, Aang would learn how to bend elements relatively quick, especially given the limited time he was under. So outside of Korra being able to bend elements as a child (which is also not mastering) - it's kind of unfair to say she got everything easy.

The hardest part for Aang was having to find the trainers. But once he started training he was quick at it. Plus he had the benefit of having the avatar state before even mastering his other elements.

I wasn't saying the avatar state ever healed Aang. But it allowed him to do epic things when he really needed it (like the Season 1 finale, that basically ended the entire fight outside of the Water Tribe). So the fact that Aang + the Avatar state healed her blocked chi pathways, doesn't really strike me as being that far off from Aang using the Avatar state + the water spirit to become a 100 foot monster. In the end, it's just another example of the Avtar state being a powerful mechanism that aids the avatar.

Plus, when you really think about it, the idea that Amon could REALLY take away bending by using the blood to block chi paths, is silly. I buy that he could do that. But I don't buy the idea that someone couldn't reverse it if they knew how. Unlike Aang, I don't think Amon was actually energy bending, he was abusing his sub-bending to use it a different way.

You kind of hint at it, but most of the journey for Aang was finding the teacher he needed and being in the proper mindset to recieve teaching. That's why the pay off was so great everytime Aang learned a new element. He risked his life and traveled the world to find the right fire, earth, and water benders. In the case of fire and earth, he even had to over come internal limitations to start learning the elements (his hang ups with fire after burning Katara and his entire life out look when it came to being stubborn and forceful enough to bend earth)

Korra on the other hand was pretty dismisive of air bending. At least the spirtual aspect of it. So, at least for me, it wasnt' very sastisfying for her to airbend out of fear compared to when Aang first learned how to earthbend from Toph or the first time he fired bended with Zuko with the dragons.

 

[AoM]

Hell, he basically became a fire bending masters in ONE episode "The Firebending Masters'.

Wait.. what? It wasn't even implied that he mastered firebending in that episode. He just learned from the original source, which was immensely helpful in speeding up his training, but he wasn't even close to mastering it.

Even the ending where Aang gives her all her powers back, how many times in Avatar did the Avatar State basically act as a cure all for Aang? It happens quite often in Avatar.

Not really in ATLA. Aang mostly used the Avatar State when he was either in danger or crazy upset. You did have the two instances where he received the aid of the ocean spirit at the NWT and Roku at the Fire Temple. However, Aang still had to go through the process of opening all his chakras, but Korra somehow had all her chakras opened by Aang touching her forehead (still waiting for an explanation from Bryke as to how this happened).

 

[Shags]

Wait.. what? It wasn't even implied that he mastered firebending in that episode. He just learned from the original source, which was immensely helpful in speeding up his training, but he wasn't even close to mastering it.

Plus he already had some experience in Book 1 The Deserter.

 

[Cwarrior]

Aang already had the ability to go into the avatar state even before mastering all the elements. While I wouldn't say he "mastered" elements per se, he would learn bending a lot quicker than Korra ever did. Hell, he basically became a fire bending masters in ONE episode "The Firebending Masters'.

The Firebending master refers to the Dragon there the original firebending masters mention in iroha story brought up by zuko, there even called that several times by by that name, the title does not refer to ang or zuko.

 

[Joeytj]

That last line was kind of an unfair statement to make. But I said that not based on personality (which I admit is different for each Avatar) -- but rather, with all of Korra's training, I think it's kind of sad that an Avatar would openly suggest that as a first line of action. But I guess it was always apart of Korra's traits, that she didn't really take to the deeper side of what it meant to be an Avatar (they suggest this is in the pilot episode, where they say her training has only been great on the physical aspect of bending, and not the spiritual).

The subject is touched upon a bit more in Episode 1 of Book 2, Rebel Spirits. Unalaq, Korra's uncle, chastises Tenzin and Korra's father (and his brother) for shielding Korra too much form the real world, and didn't even get to travel like other Avatars did. Korra gets angry at *spoilers*:

Spoiler

the revelation that it was actually mostly Tenzin's and her father's idea that Korra be locked-up in the South Pole for most of her life, and taking her training to her and not the other way around like it traditionally is. In fact, she is probably one of the few and only known Avatar to have her parents actively shape her training and life.

 

[Joeytj]

While he technically didn't become a master, he still became really good at it. My point ultimately was, Aang would learn how to bend elements relatively quick, especially given the limited time he was under. So outside of Korra being able to bend elements as a child (which is also not mastering) - it's kind of unfair to say she got everything easy.

The hardest part for Aang was having to find the trainers. But once he started training he was quick at it. Plus he had the benefit of having the avatar state before even mastering his other elements.

I wasn't saying the avatar state ever healed Aang. But it allowed him to do epic things when he really needed it (like the Season 1 finale, that basically ended the entire fight outside of the Water Tribe). So the fact that Aang + the Avatar state healed her blocked chi pathways, doesn't really strike me as being that far off from Aang using the Avatar state + the water spirit to become a 100 foot monster. In the end, it's just another example of the Avtar state being a powerful mechanism that aids the avatar.

Plus, when you really think about it, the idea that Amon could REALLY take away bending by using the blood to block chi paths, is silly. I buy that he could do that. But I don't buy the idea that someone couldn't reverse it if they knew how. Unlike Aang, I don't think Amon was actually energy bending, he was abusing his sub-bending to use it a different way.

Bryan and Mike have confirmed that Amon took away people's bending by using a combination of reverse healing + bloodbending. It wasn't energybending, but it's pretty damn close.

 

[Joeytj]

Wait.. what? It wasn't even implied that he mastered firebending in that episode. He just learned from the original source, which was immensely helpful in speeding up his training, but he wasn't even close to mastering it.



Not really in ATLA. Aang mostly used the Avatar State when he was either in danger or crazy upset. You did have the two instances where he received the aid of the ocean spirit at the NWT and Roku at the Fire Temple. However, Aang still had to go through the process of opening all his chakras, but Korra somehow had all her chakras opened by Aang touching her forehead (still waiting for an explanation from Bryke as to how this happened).

I'll say it for them... Korra just got there differently. Roku mastered the Avatar state in a different manner from Aang also, and even try to cheat his way to it, much like Aang did in "The Avatar State" during Book 2. The chakra technique can't possibly be the only way Avatars master the Avatar State, or at least, they don't always manage to open them consciously like Aang.

 

[Wafflecakes]

Not a fan of the new book title. Should have just been "spirit" to keep the theme consistent.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Anyone pick up Avatar: The Search Part 2 yet?

p.s. korra s1 still sucks

 

[Mononoke]

The Firebending master refers to the Dragon there the original firebending masters mention in iroha story brought up by zuko, there even called that several times by by that name, the title does not refer to ang or zuko.

Yeah, I realized that after I posted. It was referring to the Sun tribe not Aang and Zuko. But even if you ignore that stupid statement, my point always was that Aang also learned bending rather quickly (and learned it well). He might not have been a master at it, but he was a very fast learner. On top of all this, he had the avatar state the entire time.

I don't even really know what I'm arguing anyways. The fact is, whether Korra had it easy or not is irrelevant. The writers chose to NOT show Korra's training. The story starts off with her already being really good at all 3 elements, and only having trouble with one. So the bottom line is, audiences aren't going to see the work she had to put it in.

 

[foxuzamaki]

would like to add to the discussion up top that aang knew how to get into the avatar state because airbenders were generally closer connected to the spirit world, they always meditated and were probably the most religious benders, they even had their own way of finding out the avatar without waiting until a earthbender starts spitting out fire.

 

[Mononoke]

would like to add to the discussion up top that aang knew how to get into the avatar state because airbenders were generally closer connected to the spirit world, they always meditated and were probably the most religious benders, they even had their own way of finding out the avatar without waiting until a earthbender starts spitting out fire.

Yep. It's actually established in the Korra Pilot that she has trouble connecting with the spiritual side. So that explains why she is never able to trigger the Avatar State defense mechanism.

Interestingly, the last Avatar from the water tribe was Kuruk. If you recall, he was very cocky, and just did what he wanted without really paying attention to the troubles of the world. When his wife got her face stolen by the spirit, he went to kill it and lost his life.

While I wouldn't say Korra is laid back, I do think she's kind of cocky and sometimes ignores the greater picture.

Kuruk was a gifted but brash and arrogant person, who always preferred a "go with the flow" kind of mentality. Due to this attitude and his pompous demeanor, Kuruk lost his fiancée, Ummi, to Koh the Face Stealer

 

[AoM]

I'll say it for them... Korra just got there differently. Roku mastered the Avatar state in a different manner from Aang also, and even try to cheat his way to it, much like Aang did in "The Avatar State" during Book 2. The chakra technique can't possibly be the only way Avatars master the Avatar State, or at least, they don't always manage to open them consciously like Aang.

Roku still had to go through some sort of training as well as trial and error. And I wouldn't say that Aang tried to "cheat" his way to it; he didn't want anything to do with General Fong after he went all crazy. Korra was just somehow given the ability to go in and out of the Avatar State at will without any training or meditation.

Guru Pathik said it best: "You must gain balance within yourself before you can bring balance to the world."

What kind of balance did Korra reach? Even if Aang was somehow able to give her this ability, you think she wouldn't have control of the AS because she hasn't reached balance within herself. It just really confused me when I saw that clip of her racing the airbending kids because they had spent an entire episode in the original on chakras and achieving balance, whereas Korra "achieves" it in a couple of seconds.

 

[Mononoke]

Roku still had to go through some sort of training as well as trial and error. And I wouldn't say that Aang tried to "cheat" his way to it; he didn't want anything to do with General Fong after he went all crazy. Korra was just somehow given the ability to go in and out of the Avatar State at will without any training or meditation.

Guru Pathik said it best: "You must gain balance within yourself before you can bring balance to the world."

What kind of balance did Korra reach? Even if Aang was somehow able to give her this ability, you think she wouldn't have control of the AS because she hasn't reached balance within herself. It just really confused me when I saw that clip of her racing the airbending kids because they had spent an entire episode in the original on chakras and achieving balance, whereas Korra "achieves" it in a couple of seconds.

Keep in mind though, that presumably - Aang was the first Avatar to be able to energy bend. So the real issue here is, do we think it's acceptable that a past life/avatar spirit can physically alter a current Avatar?

I mean...the Avatar State itself is all their past lives' powers coming together and physically affecting the current Avatar. So is it really that much of a stretch that Aang was able to open her chi paths?

Thing is, Guru was right about balance. But that's because Aang had to unblock his chakras to be able to fully open his chi paths. BUT, Aang at the end of the series had the power to open up and close the chakras and the chi paths (presumably) with the ability to energy bend. So I don't think logically it's all that much of a stretch. The only thing I question is whether a past avatar should be able to do that to a current.

The other thing to consider is that, Korra was never able to connect with her past lives or her spiritual side. So for all we know, Aang would have given her that ability at some point anyways (even if Amon had not done what he did). Because remember, Aang would learn stuff from his past lives before (although I don't recall them ever giving him any kind of power, or physically altering him).

 

[Veelk]

Keep in mind though, that presumably - Aang was the first Avatar to be able to energy bend. So the real issue here is, do we think it's acceptable that a past life/avatar spirit can physically alter a current Avatar?

I mean...the Avatar State itself is all their past lives' powers coming together and physically affecting the current Avatar. So is it really that much of a stretch that Aang was able to open her chi paths?

Thing is, Guru was right about balance. But that's because Aang had to unblock his chakras to be able to fully open his chi paths. BUT, Aang at the end of the series had the power to open up the chakras and the chi paths (presumably) with the ability to energy bend. So I don't thing logically it's all that much of a stretch. The only thing I question is whether a past avatar should be able to do that to a current.

The other thing to consider is that, Korra was never able to connect with her past lives or her spiritual side. So for all we know, Aang would have given her that ability at some point anyways (even if Amon had not done what he did). Because Aang would learn stuff that only his past would have known.

Aang probably wasn't the first, it's more likely just more of a lost art.

Anyway, I think your misunderstanding how the avatar state works. It doesn't physically affect the avatar at all. It's just all past lives being channeled into a single person. In it, Aang has all their knowledge and mastery over bending, but his physical body is as ordinary as ever. You might have an argument insofar as when they channel specific past incarnations, like Roku or Kyoshi, but I always took those to be illusions. Or even if they are full manifestations, they can clearly only happen in special circumstances, like the winter solstice. Otherwise, Aang could have just let Roku right Ozai. Not to mention that the manifestations, and the knowledge and bending they bring, don't last. Why should energy bending?

Second, no avatar imparts bending or spiritual knowledge to their current self. Aang talked to Roku plenty of times, but he didn't learn firebending or the avatar state until learned it from another living person. Aang talked to Kyoshi, he wasn't given all her earthbending techniques either. Perhaps they couldn't since there is no bending in the spiritual world, or maybe it's just a rule that they have to interact with the world to do it (which makes sense, since the avatar is meant to be connected to the earth and it's people), but for whatever reason, it doesn't happen.

And your comment on the Guru thing... your conflating mastering the avatar state with mastering energybending. They were totally different things. To use the avatar state, you need to have your Chi flowing, which requires internalizing various life lessons and unloading emotional baggage. To energy bend, all you need to do is have a strong enough will + whatever knowledge the lion-turtle imparted. We don't know if any avatar before aang had energy bending, but we DO know every avatar before him mastered the avatar state. And Aang had to relearn the avatar state just like he had to relearn all the other elements. It makes no sense for Korra to not have to do it too.

I also object to the idea that you can 'force' spirituality onto someone. Allowing your chi to flow is something a person has to do themselves by unloading their own personal fears and insecurities and attaining wisdom. I guess you can argue that it's atleast possible within the rules of how the avatar world works, but do you know what your implying here? About what Aang did to Korra? He didn't just 'unblock her energy" then, because unblocking her chi means he forced her into not feeling guilty about her failures against her consent, into accepting a mindset of universal unity that she had not chosen to accept herself, of releasing her love of mako (even though that clearly did not happen) without her even understanding what is going on!

You can't just...do that to someone. That's horrible. Even if it's for their benefit, you can't bend them into being a better person against their will, knowledge, or consent.

So yeah, I maintain that it makes no sense for the ending to have happened the way it did.

 

[Mononoke]

Aang probably wasn't the first, it's more likely just more of a lost art.

Anyway, I think your misunderstanding how the avatar state works. It doesn't physically affect the avatar at all. It's just all past lives being channeled into a single person. In it, Aang has all their knowledge and mastery over bending, but his physical body is as ordinary as ever. You might have an argument insofar as when they channel specific past incarnations, like Roku or Kyoshi, but I always took those to be illusions. Or even if they are full manifestations, they can clearly only happen in special circumstances, like the winter solstice. Otherwise, Aang could have just let Roku right Ozai. Not to mention that the manifestations don't last.

Second, no avatar imparts bending knowledge to their current self. Aang talked to Roku plenty of times, but he didn't learn firebending until learned it from another living person. Aang talked to Kyoshi, he wasn't given all her earthbending techniques either. Perhaps they couldn't since there is no bending in the spiritual world, or maybe it's just a rule that they have to interact with the world to do it (which makes sense, since the avatar is meant to be connected to the earth), but for whatever reason, it doesn't happen.

And your comment on the Guru thing... your conflating mastering the avatar state with mastering energybending. They were totally different things. To energy bend, all you need to do is have a strong enough will + whatever knowledge the lion-turtle imparted. We don't know if any avatar before aang had energy bending, but we DO know every avatar before him mastered the avatar state, so they had to learn how to make their chi flow just like Aang did. If Aang had to relearn that as he relearned all the other elements, it makes no sense for Korra to not have to do it either.

I also object to the idea that you can 'force' spirituality onto someone. Allowing your chi to flow is something a person has to do themselves by unloading their own personal fears and insecurities and guilt. I guess you can argue that it's atleast possible within the rules of how the avatar world works, but do you know what your implying here? About what Aang did to Korra? He didn't just 'unblock her energy" then, because unblocking her chi means he forced her into not feeling guilty about her failures against her consent, into accepting a mindset of universal unity that she had not chosen to accept herself, of releasing her love of mako (even though that clearly did not happen) without her even understanding what is going on!

You can't just...do that to someone. That's horrible. Even if it's for their benefit, you can't bend them into being a better person against their will, knowledge, or consent.

So yeah, I maintain that it makes no sense for the ending to have happened the way it did.

I understand fully what the avatar state is, and how it has to be mastered. But that said, it doesn't change the fact that the Avatar state requires the Chakra pathways to be open. And while that requires complete balance with the person to do so, I don't see why it can't be opened with bending. Why can't Aang do that to another avatar with energy bending? Logistically, the way energy bending works, it's not totally implausible as you seem to be suggesting.

We actually agree 100% about how energy bending is taught (with the Sea Turtle). I understand that it's all about having a strong enough will and not having a bendable spirit - and needing the knowledge of how to do it. I guess where I don't agree with you is that, I think it's logical that Aang was able to open her pathways again (that amon had closed) with energy bending.

But I would like to say, Korra has yet to take anyones bending away. She's only done the reverse of it (give it back by opening the chi path ways). Lol I'm also well aware that bending isn't just given to avatars in their past state. If that was the case, Aang would have been given his bending by past avatars when he needed to learn them quickly. I was just suggesting that Aang opened up her closed path ways with energy bending, and then gave her the knowledge of how to energy bend.

EDIT: Also, I never said that Aang was THE FIRST energy bender. Just that, I was speculating that he was the FIRST AVATAR to learn it. Because if past avatars had learned it, it would seem rather silly that none of them would tell Aang about it. Then again, we'll have to wait and see. I could see Avatar Wan (the first Avatar) learn how to do it. I guess it's possible that past Avatar spirits get lost in the mix (Aang only called on 6 of the past, and not any further back. So maybe along the way it got lost).

 

[Veelk]

I understand fully what the avatar state is, and how it has to be mastered. But that said, it doesn't change the fact that the Avatar state requires the Chakra pathways to be open. So why can't Aang do that to another avatar with energy bending? Logistically, the way energy bending works, it's not totally implausible as you seem to be suggesting.

1. It's a horrible thing to do because it not only affects their energy, effectively changes who they are against their will.
2. Bending doesn't exist in the spirit world, as far as we know.
3. Avatars cannot physically affect the current avatar.

Lol I'm also well aware that bending isn't just given to avatars in their past state. If that was the case, Aang would have been given his bending by past avatars when he needed to learn them quickly. I was just suggesting that Aang opened up her closed path ways with energy bending, and then gave her the knowledge of how to energy bend.

And you do not see a contradiction of between Aang suddenly being able to do what no other past avatar has? There are monumental amounts of knowledge Roku could have given Aang about bending in general if he was so inclined. If imparting knowledge like this has been allowed, how do you explain it not happening until Korra needed it?

 

[cdkee]

Uh....once, in the korra flashback when aang was knocked unconcious by yakone. The avatar state never healed aang of anything in tla.

The Ozai fight says hi. For the final fight, it was a bit disappointing to me that Aang basically just gets his butt kicked until the Avatar state takes over. Didn't feel like he did much.

 

[Veelk]

The Ozai fight says hi. For the final fight, it was a bit disappointing to me that Aang basically just gets his butt kicked until the Avatar state takes over. Didn't feel like he did much.

What injury was healed? Aang got knocked around, but he didn't have any broken arms or anything that got magically restored. So, specifically, what injury?

 

[cdkee]

What injury was healed? Aang got knocked around, but he didn't have any broken arms or anything that got magically restored. So, specifically, what injury?

I was referring to it being a deus ex machina more than anything. I didn't take "cure-all" literally.

 

[Mononoke]

1. It's a horrible thing to do because it not only affects their energy, effectively changes who they are against their will.
2. Bending doesn't exist in the spirit world, as far as we know.
3. Avatars cannot physically affect the current avatar.



And you do not see a contradiction of between Aang suddenly being able to do what no other past avatar has? There are monumental amounts of knowledge Roku could have given Aang about bending in general if he was so inclined. If imparting knowledge like this has been allowed, how do you explain it not happening until Korra needed it?

1. Who cares if it's horrible. Doesn't make it illogical (although point 3 does make it illogical). Although you could argue that it would be out of character for Aang to do such a thing (fair enough). But when it comes down to the current Avatar forever losing their powers, and forcing their pathways back open with energy bending, I'm sure Korra would be okay with that.

2. Right. Unless they show us some special case where there is bending in the spirit world (or specifically with avatar spirits), then currently it doesn't make sense.

3. Agree with you there. Which is why I brought up the question a couple posts back: "do we find it acceptable that past avatars can physically alter a current"? Energy bending Korra WOULD be physically altering her. I agree with you more on this, I think it was a cop out that Aang was able to do this, unless they explain later on that there is bending in the spirit world, or that avatars can bend in the spirit world. My argument is that, I understand how Aang did it. But that I don't necessarily agree that he SHOULD be able to do it (given that he's a spirit). I was talking more so about how Energy bending is able to do it (and IMO that making sense. Although we don't seem to agree on that either).

But I do agree with you on the inconsistency of Aang being able to do what he did given he's a spirit, sure.

 

[Mononoke]

The Ozai fight says hi. For the final fight, it was a bit disappointing to me that Aang basically just gets his butt kicked until the Avatar state takes over. Didn't feel like he did much.

Blood bending is kind of broken though, isn't it? The water element in general has way too many sub-bending abilities. It's just an over-powered element.

 

[Veelk]

1. Who cares if it's horrible. Doesn't make it illogical (although point 3 does make it illogical).

2. Right. Unless they show us some special case where there is bending in the spirit world (or specifically with avatar spirits), then currently it doesn't make sense.

3. Agree with you there. Which is why I brought up the question a couple posts back: "do we find it acceptable that past avatars can physically alter a current"? Energy bending Korra WOULD be physically altering her. I agree with you more on this, I think it was a cop out that Aang was able to do this, unless they explain later on that there is bending in the spirit world, or that avatars can bend in the spirit world. My argument is that, I understand how Aang did it. But that I don't necessarily agree that he SHOULD be able to do it (given that he's a spirit). I was talking more so about how Energy bending is able to do it (and IMO that making sense. Although we don't seem to agree on that either).

But I do agree with you on the inconsistency of Aang being able to do what he did given he's a spirit, sure.

1. Well, it would be inconsistant with Aang's character, so even if it works in terms of avatar world physics, it's bad storytelling since it's out of character. Not to mention that if it's just waterbending, Korra should be able to find a way out of that without Aang's help. She still has her own spirit. The season 1 ending should have had her be given new resolve to get in touch with her own spirituality, as that should happen. Korra is literally being handed her character development is handed to her a platter from Aang instead of her earning it herself. How is this good storytelling?

2. Well, when Aang first went with Roku to the spirit world, he specifically said that there is no bending possible there, so yeah.

3. Fair enough, but it's hard to even conceptualize how that would work. Can you imagine someone forcefully removing anything you feel guilty about? Or making you release your love? It's very abstract....though I guess no more abstract than how he removed Ozai's bending. Firebending is fueled by drive, so he would have to find and remove that. I think it was easier for him because his firebending is corrupted, since Ozai conflated drive with aggression, when we learned in The Firebending Masters that it wasn't. Now that I think about it, it's actually visualized well at the end, with Ozai too weak to even stand, but he's still aggressively flailing around trying to futilely fight back. Anyway, if Aang can isolate and remove drive, I suppose he could also remove guilt and the like...but I still consider it highly immoral and out of character for him to do so. And physically impossible since he is a spirit and doesn't have energy of his own, which he needs to bend anothers.

I was referring to it being a deus ex machina more than anything. I didn't take "cure-all" literally.

Given that he didn't use the avatar state to finish the fight, I wouldn't say it's a cure-all. It definitely managed to give him his footing back, but Aang ended that fight using his own skills and iron will.

 

[Mononoke]

1. Well, it would be inconsistant with Aang's character, so even if it works in terms of avatar world physics, it's bad storytelling since it's out of character. Not to mention that if it's just waterbending, Korra should be able to find a way out of that without Aang's help. She still has her own spirit. The season 1 ending should have had her be given new resolve to get in touch with her own spirituality, as that should happen. Korra is literally being handed her character development is handed to her a platter from Aang instead of her earning it herself. How is this good storytelling?

2. Well, when Aang first went with Roku to the spirit world, he specifically said that there is no bending possible there, so yeah.

3. Fair enough, but it's hard to even conceptualize how that would work. Can you imagine someone forcefully removing anything you feel guilty about? Or making you release your love? It's very abstract....though I guess no more abstract than how he removed Ozai's bending. Firebending is fueled by drive, so he would have to find and remove that. I think it was easier for him because his firebending is corrupted, since Ozai conflated drive with aggression, when we learned in The Firebending Masters that it wasn't. Now that I think about it, it's actually visualized well at the end, with Ozai too weak to even stand, but he's still aggressively flailing around trying to futilely fight back. Anyway, if Aang can isolate and remove drive, I suppose he could also remove guilt and the like...but I still consider it highly immoral and out of character for him to do so. And physically impossible since he is a spirit and doesn't have energy of his own, which he needs to bend anothers.



Given that he didn't use the avatar state to finish the fight, I wouldn't say it's a cure-all. It definitely managed to give him his footing back, but Aang ended that fight using his own skills and iron will.

1. I actually edited my post to include that. If you are arguing about Aangs character (which you are), then I would agree. Although if given the choice of having an avatar permanently being blocked from the other elements, I think Korra would be more than happy to have Aang energy bend those path ways back open.

2. Sure, but there is such a thing as a retcon. Further, it wouldn't be the first time writers add a special "exemption" for something as a story progressed. I don't think it's good writing to do this. But who knows what they will try to say with Aang's spirit in the spirit world.

3. Meh. We are talking about energy bending here. While I understand the only way to open the chakras is to be completely balanced as a person, my assumption is that Energy bending can trump that and force them open (not the way you are saying, where the energy bending would force someone to not be guilty etc). Energy bending in itself is spiritual. EDIT: But to be fair, it was the creators decision to base these things off actual philosophies and teachings. So I agree it's kind of lame that they spend all this time talking about how to open the Chakras, and then disregard it.

On that note, does anyone know why Aang was able to open his Chakras fully in the series finale? His back (where he was killed) got jabbed, and that opened his final Chakra? Why? How? That part never made sense to me. Did I misunderstand that scene?

 

[Grakl]

Blood bending is overpowered, but I dunno why airbenders couldn't also just blow somebody up from the inside out by air pressure. You could take all of the elements quite a bit further to make them more violent. Blood bending is super boring when it becomes commonplace, though, and I like how ATLA handled it.

 

[Veelk]

1. I actually edited my post to include that. If you are arguing about Aangs character (which you are), then I would agree. Although if given the choice of having an avatar permanently being blocked from the other elements, I think Korra would be more than happy to have Aang energy bend those path ways back open.

2. Sure, but there is such a thing as a retcon. Further, it wouldn't be the first time writers add a special "exemption" for something as a story progressed. I don't think it's good writing to do this. But who knows what they will try to say with Aang's spirit in the spirit world.

3. Meh. We are talking about energy bending here. While I understand the only way to open the chakras is to be completely balanced as a person, my assumption is that Energy bending can trump that and force them open (not the way you are saying, where the energy bending would force someone to not be guilty etc). Energy bending in itself is spiritual.

1. Korra still has her spirit. As long as she has that, there should be a way to do it, or at the very least a way for someone else to do it forever. And it's actually a waterbending technique anyway, a skilled waterbender should be able to reverse what Amon did. I know katara says its' all hopeless and blah, but there's no reason to think that if all Amon did was some waterbending trick.

2. So, bad writing. We agree there. I'm not riding this because I'm a stickler for pedantic details, I'm riding on this because it's bad storytelling.

3. That's...not how spirituality works. If it was, then the Guru should have just poked Aang on his chakra points and called it a day. Your spirit is very much tied to your character, your very being. To manipulate it is to manipulate who you are.

Blood bending is overpowered, but I dunno why airbenders couldn't also just blow somebody up from the inside out by air pressure. You could take all of the elements quite a bit further to make them more violent. Blood bending is super boring when it becomes commonplace, though, and I like how ATLA handled it.

Yeah, true, but it was also balanced by being difficult to do and having it done on the full moon. Yakone completely controlled over 30 people in a single room without even moving a muscle. That's ridiculously overpowered.

 

[Mononoke]

1. Korra still has her spirit. As long as she has that, there should be a way to do it, or at the very least a way for someone else to do it forever. And it's actually a waterbending technique anyway, a skilled waterbender should be able to reverse what Amon did. I know katara says its' all hopeless and blah, but there's no reason to think that if all Amon did was some waterbending trick.

2. So, bad writing. We agree there. I'm not riding this because I'm a stickler for pedantic details, I'm riding on this because it's bad storytelling.

3. That's...not how spirituality works. If it was, then the Guru should have just poked Aang on his chakra points and called it a day. Your spirit is very much tied to your character, your very being. To manipulate it is to manipulate who you are.


Yeah, true, but it was also balanced by being difficult to do and having it done on the full moon. Yakone completely controlled over 30 people in a single room without even moving a muscle. That's ridiculously overpowered.

I didn't know that Korra was using water bending to reverse it (although I knew Amon was using it to close the chi path ways). But that actually makes more sense. So that explains why me and you are kind of on different pages here. I always just assumed that Korra re-opening the path ways, was done through the energy bending she had learned from Aang. But it makes more sense that she didn't learn energy bending, because she's not as strong as Aang in terms of will, and incorruptible spirit. Plus, it was never shown that energy bending can do the reverse anyways (ie. giving powers back).

So basically, all our back and forth was pointless.

lol

Well, not pointless in that I finally understand why my stance was wrong. I guess it wasn't all for naught. Pretty stupid too, considering it was kind of obvious. Not sure why I just assumed she got energy bending (I guess it was just the transition in the finale where she got her avatar state when Aang touched her, that confused me).

 

[Veelk]

I didn't know that Korra was using water bending to reverse it (although I knew Amon was using it to close the chi path ways). But that actually makes more sense. So that explains why me and you are kind of on different pages here. I always just assumed that Korra re-opening the path ways, was done through the energy bending she had learned from Aang. But it makes more sense that she didn't learn energy bending, because she's not as strong as Aang in terms of will, and incorruptible spirit. Plus, it was never shown that energy bending can do the reverse anyways (ie. giving powers back).

So basically, all our back and forth was pointless.

lol

Well, not pointless in that I finally understand why my stance was wrong. I guess it wasn't all for naught.

No no no, she did learn energy bending. She has the glowy eyes and stance for doing it and everything. And Aang used it to get reawaken himself when Yakone screwed him earlier too. She definitely is using energy bending.

What I was saying is that if all Amon did was use some kind of waterbending trick to seal chi points to stop others from bending, then it's only logical that you can use waterbending to reverse it. They'd just have to know how. Or, if not waterbending, then any person should be able to fix it themselves using spiritual techniques like the ones the Guru taught. All he did was block their chi. You can unblock it yourself, as the Guru showed us. Energy bending shouldn't be necessary to fix the problem.

 

[AoM]

On that note, does anyone know why Aang was able to open his Chakras fully in the series finale? His back (where he was killed) got jabbed, and that opened his final Chakra? Why? How? That part never made sense to me. Did I misunderstand that scene?

He opened his final chakra in the S2 finale. I guess that lightning bolt by Azula sort of locked his AS.. they never really explained it. So when his back hit the rock, it 'turned on' his AS I guess.

 

[Veelk]

He opened his final chakra in the S2 finale. I guess that lightning bolt by Azula sort of locked his AS.. they never really explained it. So when his back hit the rock, it 'turned on' his AS I guess.

The physical injury was preventing the Chi from flowing, since the lightning hit his chakra point. Him hitting the rock realigned his chakra pools or something. It's pretty vague, but we do know the physical body and it's spirit are connected, so as far as we know, it doesn't contradict anything.

 

[AoM]

The physical injury was preventing the Chi from flowing, since the lightning hit his chakra point. Him hitting the rock realigned his chakra pools or something. It's pretty vague, but we do know the physical body and it's spirit are connected, so as far as we know, it doesn't contradict anything.

Ah, that makes a lot more sense. With all this chakra talk, I'm still surprised they didn't mention them once in S1. Hopefully they will actually have a role in the next book.

 

[Veelk]

Ah, that makes a lot more sense. With all this chakra talk, I'm still surprised they didn't mention them once in S1. Hopefully they will actually have a role in the next book.

Well, Amon did touch people in their head chakra and iirc their back chakra to do his thing. Aang touched the chakra points on Ozai's head and chest when he took away his firebending. Which actually created a minor inconsistancy in Korra, where he just touched her head and shoulder, but I think that's just because nickelodeon didn't want Aang to copping a feel.

 

[AoM]

Well, Amon did touch people in their head chakra and iirc their back chakra to do his thing. Aang touched the chakra points on Ozai's head and chest when he took away his firebending. Which actually created a minor inconsistancy in Korra, where he just touched her head and shoulder, but I think that's just because nickelodeon didn't want Aang to copping a feel.

True, but I mean like mention them by name and go into much more detail than we got in The Guru.

Also, thought I would post this: http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/vi...egend-of-korra-vlogs-welcome-to-republic-city

Doug has started his LoK vlogs. Interesting to see someone's first impressions.

 

[Veelk]

Interesting to see someone's first impressions.

Ah, the bliss of ignorance....

 

[SlowRevolution]

True, but I mean like mention them by name and go into much more detail than we got in The Guru.

Also, thought I would post this: http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/vi...egend-of-korra-vlogs-welcome-to-republic-city

Doug has started his LoK vlogs. Interesting to see someone's first impressions.

damn he jumped straight into it, I was expecting a break until the Airbender movie review.

His vlogs had moments where you had to wonder if he was watching at all, but they were pretty enjoyable. Looking forward to hearing his thoughts, hoping he does some other shows too.

 

[AoM]

Ah, the bliss of ignorance....

Lol. He'll probably enjoy the first couple of episodes, but I'm guessing it will just keep going downhill for him. Really can't wait to hear his thoughts on the finale.

 

[Mononoke]

He opened his final chakra in the S2 finale. I guess that lightning bolt by Azula sort of locked his AS.. they never really explained it. So when his back hit the rock, it 'turned on' his AS I guess.

Ah. My assumption was that he didn't fully unlock it, like he was in the process and getting killed stopped him from doing it. But then again, he did go into the Avatar state. So when the Guru told him he had to give up his love for Katara, did he not mean literally? I guess I'm confused, because I always thought that Aang still had feelings for Katara because he didn't actually open up the Chakra all the way (he died near the end of the process before it completed).

I mean, if he really had opened up the last Chakra, shouldn't his feelings for Katara have been muted?

 

[Mononoke]

No no no, she did learn energy bending. She has the glowy eyes and stance for doing it and everything. And Aang used it to get reawaken himself when Yakone screwed him earlier too. She definitely is using energy bending.

What I was saying is that if all Amon did was use some kind of waterbending trick to seal chi points to stop others from bending, then it's only logical that you can use waterbending to reverse it. They'd just have to know how. Or, if not waterbending, then any person should be able to fix it themselves using spiritual techniques like the ones the Guru taught. All he did was block their chi. You can unblock it yourself, as the Guru showed us. Energy bending shouldn't be necessary to fix the problem.

Ah okay. Was getting confused. SO I'm not entirely crazy (well, clearly I am with how much I obsess over this show). Anyways, my head hurts. I think while we disagree on certain aspects of this (more so the technical aspects). But I think we both agree that Aang being able to give her energy bending and being able to fix her was pretty poorly handled (if not illogical given what past stuff we've heard about the spirit world, and how past avatars interact with current avatars).

All this said, I was never defending the actual ending from a writing stand point. Even if the writers could explain how Aang was able to do it, and it all made sense without being a retcon or stretching it, I still think it was a mistake to wrap it all up so quickly at the end of the season. And even from a character arc perspective, it's dumb to give her control of the avatar sate + energy bending so soon, and easily.

However, I always keep in mind this was supposed to be ONE season originally. Not that, that excuses their writing decisions. Even had this been a stand alone plot, they shouldn't have written a plot in the first place that required that to fix Korra getting her bending taken away.