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[Klocker]

You guys do realize he is not saying the Xb1 is more powerful than the PS4 right? He is only saying the difference is not 40% as most of you seem to believe.

Whether it is 30% or 10% does it really matter to you?

Evidently keeping the misperception of a solid 40% in graphics disparity in games is serious business.

 

[Wishmaster92]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-how-the-crew-was-ported-to-playstation-4

Developers porting the Crew.

Thanks. Here is the quote.

Jenner wouldn't go into details on the levels of bandwidth available for each bus owing to confidentiality agreements, but based on our information the GPU has full access to the 176GB/s bandwidth of the PS4's GDDR5 via Garlic, while the Onion gets by with a significantly lower amount, somewhere in the 20GB/s region (this ExtremeTech analysis of the PS4 APU is a good read).

 

[PopcornMegaphone]

Hmm. Who to believe.

"Every developer we've talked to said there's a 50% speed difference"

or

"differences are greatly overstated", despite openly admitting they don't know the engineering design inside the PS4

Where is that from?


John Carmack said they're very close.

 

[Spongebob]

Not the CPU clock speed, but Albert knows this as the Xbox ones is at least 10% faster, apparently.

It's funny because a little while ago (announcement of Xbox One 150MHz CPU upclock) Albert said that he wasn't aware of Sony's final CPU clock.

 

[AzerPhire]

Heaven forbid facts satiate people's questions. Albert did not give us facts.

You do realize that no one has given us facts right? We have seen zero benchmarks from developers saying one is better than the other and by how much.

 

[Dead Prince]

Not the CPU clock speed, but Albert knows this as the Xbox ones is at least 10% faster, apparently.

sony holding back the CPU speed they are obviously pushing for 2.0ghz. if no one knows then they can try for a boost. if not. they'll just post what is stable.

BELIEVE.

 

[Becky]

Hmm. Who to believe.

"Every developer we've talked to said there's a 50% speed difference"

or

"differences are greatly overstated", despite openly admitting they don't know the engineering design inside the PS4

Can you point to which developers said that? With all the shit talking it will be funny if the X1 games are even close.

 

[Andeeeh]

Wow, so much BS....In this day and age, why would you put that up on the internet? your just asking to get hammered and found out.

I wouldn't be surprised that MS shills are here, downplaying PS4 games and threads. The Deep Down threads for example is full of suss. Comments about how the deep down reminded them off motor storm in terms of graphics discrepancy.

 

[Curufinwe]

So much wrong with that post.

Graphics are a embarrassing parallel load, that means you have very little scaling hit.
You do not address the massive ROP difference, which will make it even faster than just having more CUs alone.

I guess they still haven't come up with a way to spin the Xbox one having 16 Render Output Pipelines and the PS4 having 32 ROPS.

 

[miDnIghtEr20C]

Thanks for that post Al! I for one am ready to Jump Ahead.

 

[Skeff]

Thanks. Here is the quote.

We do not know the specifics of this due to the secretive nature, but it is clear it is not 10gb/s.

 

[jjasper]

I haven't really been following this but why is MS making such a big deal about this now when they were proudly proclaiming back during the reveal that they purposefully did not target the high-end graphics?

 

[xxracerxx]

Wow, so much BS....In this day and age, why would you put that up on the internet? your just asking to get hammered and found out.

I wouldn't be surprised that MS shills are here, downplaying PS4 games and threads. The Deep Down threads for example is full of suss. Comments about how the deep down reminded them off motor storm in terms of graphics discrepancy.

Deep Down isn't looking that great, sorry.

 

[Vizzeh]

Me too. You would think being the designated tech guy and get consistently get called out for your bullshit would be embarrassing enough. The "We CREATED DirectX" was hilarious, but that post took the cake. He really believed he could just add the peak bandwidth and everyone would fall for it.

That is definitely his last post on gaf, guarantee it.

I'm not sure how their normal PR guys can handle this type of discussion, if Albert can't I'm guessing MJ Nelson will be out of his depth. I thought Albert was involved in the tech side of the console, or is he just the PR face of it being fed numbers?

 

[maabus1999]

Let him post his tech deep dive and benchmarks at some point folks. All this "you lie" posts are just going to chase him off from responding, and I would actually like to see some form of benchmarks. Which we haven't seen from ANYBODY, so it would be a first.

 

[Face it Tiger..]

I'm surprised Albert even bothers to post on here with the way some of you speak to him..

He is just impassioned as us.. dude.

let him evangelize to those who want to hear it.

 

[x-Lundz-x]

Basically what I got out of that post is the following:

This little bit helps here, and this little bit helps over here. And we have a good audio chip so that takes a little bit of the load off the CPU over here etc...

I want to know why the most important component in any system in regards to visual performance, aka the GPU, which is .5TF weaker in the Xbox One doesn't matter? If the Xbox had a comparable GPU all this other fluff would make it a better system tech wise. All this stuff sounds like is well we are doing the best we can to try and make up for not putting together the best system possible for the price we are asking for it.

 

[FINALBOSS]

You do realize that no one has given us facts right? We have seen zero benchmarks from developers saying one is better than the other and by how much.

Good lord.

We HAVE facts.

We HAVE the specs (sans PS4 CPU clock).

We HAVE heard from developers saying one is better than the other...AND how much.

Do you keep up with any of this stuff? And if not, why bother questioning anyone here?

 

[Ricerocket]

Where is that from?


John Carmack said the differences isn't huge.

https://twitter.com/adrianchm/status/375992980634480640

 

[ElTorro]

Graphics are a embarrassing parallel load, that means you have very little scaling hit.

Yes.

Referring to "inherent inefficiencies" that come with an increasing number of parallel processors usually refers to Amdahl's law [1], which states that the potential performance gain from an increased number of parallel processors is limited by the longest sequence of necessarily serial instructions.

However, GPU workloads operate with many independent SIMD-based [2] wavefronts on vast homogeneous data sets and, thus, scale nicely with an increased number of processors.

Apples and oranges.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amdahl's_law
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIMD

 

[evolution]

Albert's post is a little disconcerting to say the least. I can't believe he typed that up here. Whats with the people mad at others for calling him on the BS. Kinda sad to see.

 

[benny_a]

You do realize that no one has given us facts right? We have seen zero benchmarks from developers saying one is better than the other and by how much.

We've seen zero benchmarks for PS3 and 360. What we've seen since E3 are reports from developers that say the PS4 is significantly stronger than the Xbox One.

 

[Speedy Blue Dude]

I see my statements the other day caused more of a stir than I had intended. I saw threads locking down as fast as they pop up, so I apologize for the delayed response.

I was hoping my comments would lead the discussion to be more about the games (and the fact that games on both systems look great) as a sign of my point about performance, but unfortunately I saw more discussion of my credibility.

So I thought I would add more detail to what I said the other day, that perhaps people can debate those individual merits instead of making personal attacks. This should hopefully dismiss the notion I'm simply creating FUD or spin.

I do want to be super clear: I'm not disparaging Sony. I'm not trying to diminish them, or their launch or what they have said. But I do need to draw comparisons since I am trying to explain that the way people are calculating the differences between the two machines isn't completely accurate. I think I've been upfront I have nothing but respect for those guys, but I'm not a fan of the mis-information about our performance.

So, here are couple of points about some of the individual parts for people to consider:

• 18 CU's vs. 12 CU's =/= 50% more performance. Multi-core processors have inherent inefficiency with more CU's, so it's simply incorrect to say 50% more GPU.
• Adding to that, each of our CU's is running 6% faster. It's not simply a 6% clock speed increase overall.
• We have more memory bandwidth. 176gb/sec is peak on paper for GDDR5. Our peak on paper is 272gb/sec. (68gb/sec DDR3 + 204gb/sec on ESRAM). ESRAM can do read/write cycles simultaneously so I see this number mis-quoted.
• We have at least 10% more CPU. Not only a faster processor, but a better audio chip also offloading CPU cycles.
• We understand GPGPU and its importance very well. Microsoft invented Direct Compute, and have been using GPGPU in a shipping product since 2010 - it's called Kinect.
• Speaking of GPGPU - we have 3X the coherent bandwidth for GPGPU at 30gb/sec which significantly improves our ability for the CPU to efficiently read data generated by the GPU.

Hopefully with some of those more specific points people will understand where we have reduced bottlenecks in the system. I'm sure this will get debated endlessly but at least you can see I'm backing up my points.

I still I believe that we get little credit for the fact that, as a SW company, the people designing our system are some of the smartest graphics engineers around – they understand how to architect and balance a system for graphics performance. Each company has their strengths, and I feel that our strength is overlooked when evaluating both boxes.

Given this continued belief of a significant gap, we're working with our most senior graphics and silicon engineers to get into more depth on this topic. They will be more credible then I am, and can talk in detail about some of the benchmarking we've done and how we balanced our system.

Thanks again for letting my participate. Hope this gives people more background on my claims.

Just want to make a post saying this.

GAF I have absolutely no knowledge on specs and stuff, but this post made sense to me, so I believe Albert.

I see some GAF users calling Albert out, I'd like to request that anyone who wants to discredit Albert, makes a detailed post doing it, those are easier to understand and make sense of. Hehe.


Seriously, just seeing posts saying he's wrong don't help much.

 

[LittleJohnny]

Really love to have one of your "tech guy" explain how esram reads & writes at the same time.

Gpu have a lot more than just CU. PS4 have 100% advantage in other key areas on the GPU that you did not even talk about.

I know you think you gain something by coming on here and giving us the PR message but a lot of us know a little about what we are talking about here. Putting the "peak bw" nonsense just rubs me the wrong way.

Don't you know that the 176GB/s figure from Sony is also theoretical maximum? How come its Ok for Sony to list peak, but eSram could only list the "guaranteed".

Serious question

 

[AzerPhire]

I haven't really been following this but why is MS making such a big deal about this now when they were proudly proclaiming back during the reveal that they purposefully did not target the high-end graphics?

Because their is so much misconception about specs, that is why.

When everyone is saying something about your platform that might not be true and it affects the public perception of your system then you have an obligation to correct it.

 

[JaggedSac]

Really love to have one of your "tech guy" explain how esram reads & writes at the same time.

Gpu have a lot more than just CU. PS4 have 100% advantage in other key areas on the GPU that you did not even talk about.

I know you think you gain something by coming on here and giving us the PR message but a lot of us know a little about what we are talking about here. Putting the "peak bw" nonsense just rubs me the wrong way.

I'm sure Albert was told these things by hardware and software guys at MS. Also, cool to know they were doing gpgpu stuff for Kinect image processing.

 

[USC-fan]

Where is that from?


John Carmack said the differences isn't huge.

What carmack was talking about is the hardware itself, not performance. He stated both are using 8GB ram with an AMD apu. He said he couldnt go into detail because of NDA.

We will find out in a 2 months what the first results will be.

Don't you know that the 176GB/s figure from Sony is also theoretical maximum? How come its Ok for Sony to list peak, but eSram could only list the "guaranteed".

Serious question

The theoretical maximum of Gddr5 bus is 176GB/s and esram bus is 104~ GB/s.

The number he is quoted is pr nonsense.

Its like saying my car can do 550 MPH, but it has to dropped from a plane.

 

[AzerPhire]

Good lord.

We HAVE facts.

We HAVE the specs (sans PS4 CPU clock).

We HAVE heard from developers saying one is better than the other...AND how much.

Do you keep up with any of this stuff? And if not, why bother questioning anyone here?

What someone says on Twitter about games and systems still in development is not fact especially when they are not backing up what they are saying with evidence.

 

[Curufinwe]

Can you point to which developers said that? With all the shit talking it will be funny if the X1 games are even close.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=80542457&postcount=366

● War Thunder Dev: PS4 GPU 40% more Powerful
● Adrian C., Former People Can Fly Creative Director: PS4 has 50% speed superiority over XBO
● Forbes: Developer says PS4 is 40% more powerful than Xbox One and Call of Duty Ghosts will be noticeably different out of the gate.
● Avalance Games: "The Specs would seem to favor PS4 on paper."

 

[BrokenEchelon]

What someone says on Twitter about games and systems still in development is not fact especially when they are not backing up what they are saying with evidence.

Like this?

 

[Vizzeh]

What someone says on Twitter about games and systems still in development is not fact especially when they are not backing up what they are saying with evidence.

People may fly dev was not the only one, there were other devs, not to mention factual figures that was relatively close. Their 3rd parties, their not invested in either side.

 

[FINALBOSS]

What someone says on Twitter about games and systems still in development is not fact especially when they are not backing up what they are saying with evidence.

Way to selectively pick one part from my response that proved you are obviously wrong.

We have the facts. Albert did not post facts to back up their statements of negligible power differences.

And we've heard from just that Twitter guy--he was only the most recent.

It's painfully obvious you haven't been following any of this stuff so I'm just going to stop.

 

[PopcornMegaphone]

What carmack was talking about is the hardware itself, not performance. He stated both are using 8GB ram with an AMD apu. He said he couldnt go into detail because of NDA.

We will find out in a 2 months what the first results will be. I

He was talking about performance.

 

[LittleJohnny]

We've seen zero benchmarks for PS3 and 360. What we've seen since E3 are reports from developers that say the PS4 is significantly stronger than the Xbox One.

Where are these reports? Did Carmack state this? The man is a genius, I'll go by whatever he states.

 

[Proxy]

I haven't really been following this but why is MS making such a big deal about this now when they were proudly proclaiming back during the reveal that they purposefully did not target the high-end graphics?

They're throwing everything against the wall at this point in a effort to secure or keep as many sells as they can.

 

[bishoptl]

I'm surprised Albert even bothers to post on here with the way some of you speak to him..

Are you kidding? I mean really - are you kidding?

This is part and parcel of the territory here. You have to answer for your statements, especially if you're here in an official capacity. People get banned for being out of line, but poking holes in the arguments of other posters is well within the rules.

I've had my work here both praised and eviscerated, called out by numerous forum folks both publicly and via PM when I got stuff wrong, and I'm a goddamn admin. Guess what - I wouldn't have it any other way. That is what makes NeoGAF what it is.

There are many, many people who are more than capable of assessing, vetting and debunking technical claims and they have every right to do so. That's the price of doing business here. If we had official Nintendo or Sony reps on board, they would be subject to the same process.

If you're scared, buy a dog.

 

[JaggedSac]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=80542457&postcount=366

● War Thunder Dev: PS4 GPU 40% more Powerful
● Adrian C., Former People Can Fly Creative Director: PS4 has 50% speed superiority over XBO
● Forbes: Developer says PS4 is 40% more powerful than Xbox One and Call of Duty Ghosts will be noticeably different out of the gate.
● Avalance Games: "The Specs would seem to favor PS4 on paper."

To be fair, most of those were basing that completely off specs and not on what the hardware is actually capable of.

 

[Neuromancer]

This is incredible. Also BBT is a great show!

 

[szaromir]

(...)

Instead of twisting numbers, you should just show your first party games a bit more (FM5 in particular has had very little media shown - only two tracks two months before the release?) and some popular third party games running on your box (FIFA, COD, BF4 etc.) to instill people's confidence that you're going to provide a capable machine, regardless of what Sony are doing.

 

[alr1ght]

To be fair, most of those were basing that completely off specs and not on what the hardware is actually capable of.

So they didn't add the secret sauce in?

 

[Derrick01]

I haven't really been following this but why is MS making such a big deal about this now when they were proudly proclaiming back during the reveal that they purposefully did not target the high-end graphics?

Muddy the waters enough and you might confuse casuals (or just gamers who don't know a lot of tech stuff) into not believing that PS4 is actually stronger. I'm sure that's the overall goal anyway.

 

[Midou]

The only way to put this all to rest is to give developers a few years to make exclusives that properly utilize each system, then also compare multiplats. I expect the difference won't be too big on multiplats though, simply to save time and money. Less pop-in or greater AA are not what will make the average person with both systems pick one.

 

[FINALBOSS]

To be fair, most of those were basing that completely off specs and not on what the hardware is actually capable of.

So basically it comes down to secret sauce, gotcha.

 

[jayu26]

Are you kidding? I mean really - are you kidding?

This is part and parcel of the territory here. You have to answer for your statements, especially if you're here in an official capacity. People get banned for being out of line, but poking holes in the arguments of other posters is well within the rules.

I've had my work here both praised and eviscerated, called out by numerous forum folks both publicly and via PM when I got stuff wrong, and I'm a goddamn admin. Guess what - I wouldn't have it any other way. That is what makes NeoGAF what it is.

There are many, many people who are more than capable of assessing, vetting and debunking technical claims and they have every right to do so. That's the price of doing business here. If we had official Nintendo or Sony reps on board, they would be subject to the same process.

If you're scared, buy a dog.

And I say God Damn!

 

[JaggedSac]

So they didn't add the secret sauce in?

Huh?

 

[R3TRODYCE]

If you're scared, buy a dog.

 

[pharmboy044]

I haven't really been following this but why is MS making such a big deal about this now when they were proudly proclaiming back during the reveal that they purposefully did not target the high-end graphics?

Public perception. They're asking more for a weaker box. They're playing right into Sony's hands and Sony didn't have to lift a finger.

 

[timlot]

I'm surprised Albert even bothers to post on here with the way some of you speak to him..

I'm surprised too. "Some" folks here see everything through "playstation blue" sunglasses. So it wouldn't matter what he says they try to spin it. Thats the internet for you though. They are able to hide behind avatars and made up screen names, while Albert Penello is an office Microsoft employee who is making public statement and would have a whole lot more to lose if he was just making sh*t up. But I digress.

 

[ShapeGSX]

Really love to have one of your "tech guy" explain how esram reads & writes at the same time.

It would have to have separate read and write ports. SRAM cells with 2 ports do exist. In fact, SRAM cells with way more ports exist (usually main register files).

If the eSRAM can indeed do simultaneous reads and writes, that just means that each SRAM cell in the design has a read port and a write port and separate read and write busses.

Not exactly exotic tech, but it would mean an additional two transistors per SRAM cell.

 

[Epinephrine]

SMH @ some of the statements in Albert's latest post. You do know that some people here actually know their shit and have already called you out on some of the bullshit statements in your post, right?

Don't worry he's not a PR and is a MS engineer so I trust him.