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[JacksUsername]

So the crux of this is that it seems to have been a misunderstanding on both fronts, except that Laura K or whatever her name is massively exagerrated if not outright lied on her Twitter feed? That's pretty awful. Seems like most if not all of this might have been avoided if the Xbox PR had just let her speak to the guy after the show.

It's usually a showrunner's/PR member's job to keep people away from the MC/presenter after a live event, since that person may need to catch a flight or have another appointment. Sounds like they were just doing their job and if she had pursued a legitimate method to follow up on the subject instead of ranting on Twitter, this all would have been avoided.

 

[Slappers Only]

I've been in honestly awkward situations where I wasn't sure of someone's sex, and opted to use something like "this person" before. But there's no excuse for what happened here. Ugh.

 

[TheSeks]

http://data1.whicdn.com/images/55894494/tumblr_mjistrXhSi1r7ksqyo1_400_large.gif

I love this .gif.

So, in the end, it was a misunderstanding blown out of proportion by the need to publicly shame. Wonderful.

She has hurt herself way more than she realizes. Who will take anything she writes seriously now?

That's basically the take away. I'm all for "name and shame" if you have proof. But don't go that route if it's a "he said, she said" thing.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

"Laura Kate Dale and Fraser Millward have come to agree that the situation which took place at the Xbox stand at Eurogamer on Sunday 29th September was an unfortunate misunderstanding on both sides. It has now been made clear that Fraser did not refer to Laura as an 'it' or a 'thing' or a 'he', and these claims have now been fully retracted by Laura and she is sorry for the hurt this caused. Fraser caused offence to Laura on stage when he publicly misgendered her by addressing her as 'this person'. Laura was also upset by statements which she saw as suggesting that she was not female. Fraser is sorry he said this, and for the pain he inadvertently caused Laura. Both parties wish to put the situation behind them and consider this matter now resolved."

http://www.frasermillward.com/apps/blog/eurogamer-expo-2013-joint-statement-from-laura

Just as I called it. The journalist was just crying wolf which only hurts the transgender social equality movement in the end. She was making conflicting statements the entire time.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

how do you "misgender" someone by referring to them as "this person"?

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Laura Kate Dale and Fraser Millward have come to agree that the situation which took place at the Xbox stand at Eurogamer on Sunday 29th September was an unfortunate misunderstanding on both sides. It has now been made clear that Fraser did not refer to Laura as an 'it' or a 'thing' or a 'he', and these claims have now been fully retracted by Laura and she is sorry for the hurt this caused. Fraser caused offence to Laura on stage when he publicly misgendered her by addressing her as 'this person'. Laura was also upset by statements which she saw as suggesting that she was not female. Fraser is sorry he said this, and for the pain he inadvertently caused Laura. Both parties wish to put the situation behind them and consider this matter now resolved.

Well, I'd like to say that this should settle matters, but eh... it probably won't stop the shitstorm. :\

 

[Stimpack]

Huh. So that's how all of this ended up going down. I guess it's not too surprising. So many people are quick to rush into blind hatred. I think one of the more important lessons here is to not jump to conclusions with hearsay.

 

[RaikuHebi]

This is so stupid.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

how do you "misgender" someone by referring to them as "this person"?

You don't. It's nonsense.

 

[Coffee Dog]

how do you "misgender" someone by referring to them as "this person"?

I don't really understand that either. It's not the same as calling someone an "it" or a "thing" or something like that. It's common courtesy when you aren't really sure what to say.

 

[IT Slave]

What a wild and crazy ride this thread has been. Moral of the story: It's probably good to reserve your thoughts on a matter until you have all of the facts.

But who am I kidding? It's the Internet!

 

[Son of Cervantes]

Wow what a load of crap.

The statement basically says she lied, he made an honest mistake and that they're both equally sorry?

Lol.......

edit: what does LGBT mean? Every time I see it, my brain defaults to "TBoGT" :/

I suspect the comedian/presenter just wants this over and done with and if he has to issue some shitty "apology" to do it, then he will.

If it were me, I would probably sue her instead. She definitely defamed him.

 

[GumDumpster]

I met her back when she still identified as Tom Gabel and she was extremely nice to me. I was a teenager and it was my first punk show.

One of my favorite songs from Against Me! was an old one I knew they really didn't play anymore. I asked her if they would be playing it that night and she said she could "See what they could do." They get up on stage and lead off with the song I requested. I'm not 100% sure that wasn't what they were planning to do anyway, but I know they hadn't played it any other show on the tour before that.

WERE YOU ALSO AN ANARCHIST *wink*

She's gotta have balls to come out in a mostly masculine scene and I remember reading an interview with her a few years back saying that that's why it took her so long to come out, because she thought her fans and the punk scene in general would reject her, but she was surprised by how accepting everyone was.

 

[mooooose]

It sounds like a misunderstanding by someone not familiar with trans-gendered. I would've probably said the same thing. "This person" (unless that is too offensive) sounds like she has deeper issues, which you can't blame her for, but still. No need to crucify others. It shouldn't be surprising for any trans-gendered people that they are considered a rarity and thus hard to interact with. There is no fucking social training to prepare you for what knocks down social constructs we are all a part of for years.

What a mess of a situation though.

edit - Also Laura-Jean Grace is fucking awesome.

double edit - How would the person know that in this case, without speaking for an extended period of time, know she was trans-gendered and not just in drag or something? I don't know if this has been addressed.

 

[GumDumpster]

It sounds like a misunderstanding by someone not familiar with trans-gendered. I would've probably said the same thing. "This person" (unless that is too offensive) sounds like she has deeper issues, which you can't blame her for, but still. No need to crucify others. It shouldn't be surprising for any trans-gendered people that they are considered a rarity and thus hard to interact with. There is no fucking social training to prepare you for what knocks down social constructs we are all a part of for years.

What a mess of a situation though.

edit - Also Laura-Jean Grace is fucking awesome.

double edit - How would the person know that in this case, without speaking for an extended period of time, know she was trans-gendered and not just in drag or something? I don't know if this has been addressed.

That's sort of my issue too. Someone in a minority, such as transgenders shouldn't always be on the offensive thinking that everyone is judging them in hateful ways. As much as they want us to understand, there needs to be some understanding on their part too that we'll fuck up sometimes and its really only worth laughing about.

I can sympathize, there are tons of assholes on the net.

Another interview I read (i guess I read a lot) was with CHVURCHES lead singer and how many misogynistic comments she gets.

The internet makes it easy for the squeaky wheel to be vocal, but I have enough faith to feel that they're in the minority.

Maybe its because I live in Montreal and people have no problem bringing their kids to our annual Gay Pride parade.

 

[mooooose]

I think the problem is just a lot of people who have troubling fitting in, transgendered or not, have a ton of insecurities and will pick apart words and blow things out of proportion. I wouldn't be surprised if this person suffered from depression or at least was very insecure, and understandably so, but it doesn't give you the right to slander people. Internalize some thoughts and reflect.

 

[Slappers Only]

how do you "misgender" someone by referring to them as "this person"?

Don't downplay it, man. The internet needs this.

 

[GumDumpster]

I think the problem is just a lot of people who have troubling fitting in, transgendered or not, have a ton of insecurities and will pick apart words and blow things out of proportion. I wouldn't be surprised if this person suffered from depression or at least was very insecure, and understandably so, but it doesn't give you the right to slander people. Internalize some thoughts and reflect.

That and I find with the internet, people are unwilling to communicate their issues with the person they need to confront. Its easier to go on Twitter and lambast them.

So just to be clear, the stuff about them not letting her talk to the host was made up too?

 

[flatearthpandas]

That and I find with the internet, people are unwilling to communicate their issues with the person they need to confront. Its easier to go on Twitter and lambast them.

So just to be clear, the stuff about them not letting her talk to the host was made up too?

I think that part is true and may have prevented the entire debacle. But then I imagine not letting random angry people backstage is pretty normal for any event.

 

[Jomjom]

how do you "misgender" someone by referring to them as "this person"?

If her 10/3 statement is to be believed, after the comedian realized his mistake that she was not a man as he previously thought, his refusal to use "she," "her," etc. and instead purposely using "this person" is more than just misgendering, it's offensive.

Why not just refer to her as a female, why go gender neutral? I don't think anyone goes around referring to people as "hey you person," especially after they know what gender the person is.

 

[GumDumpster]

I think that part is true and may have prevented the entire debacle. But then I imagine not letting random angry people backstage is pretty normal for any event.

Yeah, that's a good point.

Bah, too many variables in all of this to come to any real conclusion other than, "meh, no one's perfect."

 

[Fantastical]

If her 10/3 statement is to be believed, after the comedian realized his mistake that she was not a man as he previously thought, his refusal to use "she," "her," etc. and instead purposely using "this person" is more than just misgendering, it's offensive.

Why not just refer to her as a female, why go gender neutral? I don't think anyone goes around referring to people as "hey you person," especially after they know what gender the person is.

I don't think he was certain she was a woman. He realized he probably made a mistake and went gender neutral in case he hadn't.

 

[GumDumpster]

Also, I imagine she would be a transgender in a sea of cosplayers. I can see the confusion.

 

[JDSN]

Just as I called it. The journalist was just crying wolf which only hurts the transgender social equality movement in the end. She was making conflicting statements the entire time.

Mate did you even read what you posted? Its an apology on behalf of them both and a call to sobriety and tolerance while dealing with unfortunate situations for the improvement of human relationships, not an opportunity to say "I called it, she was wrong!".

 

[baphomet]

If her 10/3 statement is to be believed, after the comedian realized his mistake that she was not a man as he previously thought, his refusal to use "she," "her," etc. and instead purposely using "this person" is more than just misgendering, it's offensive.

Why not just refer to her as a female, why go gender neutral? I don't think anyone goes around referring to people as "hey you person," especially after they know what gender the person is.

Just by looking at her there is no way to know whether they want to be referred to as male or female. So after he realized the person may not be male he used a non gendered term. You dont just go to calling them a female because you "think" they might be trans. Especially when youre at a convention with people dressed up as all sorts of shit. Using a non gendered term was the correct thing to do in this situation.

 

[Mzo]

how do you "misgender" someone by referring to them as "this person"?

The final joint apology is probably a compromise between the two parties. It's a diplomatic way of saying she was offended by his use of "this person" instead of calling her a liar or saying she overreacted.

 

[robotzombie]

If her 10/3 statement is to be believed, after the comedian realized his mistake that she was not a man as he previously thought, his refusal to use "she," "her," etc. and instead purposely using "this person" is more than just misgendering, it's offensive.

Why not just refer to her as a female, why go gender neutral? I don't think anyone goes around referring to people as "hey you person," especially after they know what gender the person is.

Just stop. The guy did absolutely nothing wrong. He didn't actively realize it was a transgendered girl that was called up and then actively choose to not refer to her as a girl. He was in a confusing situation and in his confusion wasn't sure how to refer to the person so he said "this person". Absolutely acceptible.

 

[Jomjom]

Just stop. The guy did absolutely nothing wrong. He didn't actively realize it was a transgendered girl that was called up and then actively choose to not refer to her as a girl. He was in a confusing situation and in his confusion wasn't sure how to refer to the person so he said "this person". Absolutely acceptible.

That's why I said IF her statement is to be believed (which given the fact that she hasn't been honest, is a big IF). If he didn't realize his mistake, then he didn't do anything wrong, but if he realized that she wanted to be referred to as female, and continued using gender neutral terms, then he's in the wrong.

Quote from her statement:

"Once he realized his mistake, he switched to "er, that person" rather than use female pronouns like he did for the other woman on stage."

Now I have no idea how she could tell that he had "realized his mistake," but if that really did happen and he knew for sure it was a mistake, then he should have used female pronouns. My original response was just telling the poster how using "this person" could still be migendering even when "this person" is gender neutral.

 

[robotzombie]

That's why I said IF her statement is to be believed (which given the fact that she hasn't been honest, is a big IF). If he didn't realize his mistake, then he didn't do anything wrong, but if he realized that she wanted to be referred to as female, and continued using gender neutral terms, then he's in the wrong.

Yes but there aren't "ifs" anymore, we know what happened.

Edit: her statements aren't to be believed. She consistently exaggerated and even flat out lied about what happened and we have resolution in the form of the apology.

 

[Jomjom]

Yes but there aren't "ifs" anymore, we know what happened.

To be fair neither of us knows exactly what happened. You weren't there and I wasn't there. I'm simply saying that if he really knew of his mistake then he's wrong, if he didn't, then he's not.

If he had absolutely no idea of his "mistake", I don't know why he didn't just keep referring to her as a "he" along with the other 4 guys on stage. I also have no idea why she didn't just tell him right then and there on the stage that she was a girl to remove any ambiguity.

 

[robotzombie]

To be fair neither of us knows exactly what happened. You weren't there and I wasn't there. I'm simply saying that if he really knew of his mistake then he's wrong, if he didn't, then he's not.

You should follow a story to completion before posting if you are planning on arguing points about said story

 

[Jomjom]

You should follow a story to completion before posting if you are planning on arguing points about said story

Last response to you because you don't seem to be listening and are needlessly condescending and aggressive for reasons unknown.

I have followed the story from beginning to end. Just because someone issues a joint statement does not mean it's what happened. Just as a settlement in a civil case does not mean the damages are actually what was caused. These are compromises not a recitation of what happened. Obviously, she has outright lied about what he called her and this definitely damages her credibility. I'm not saying her statement on 10/3 was true (very well could have been another of her exaggerations), I'm just saying if she was right about him knowing his mistake, and he still refused to call her what she wanted to be called, then that changes things a bit. He probably didn't even know what she wanted to be called, and in that case it's on both of them to have clarified it somehow.

The statement doesn't explain why he changed from referring to her as one of the guys on stage all of a sudden to "this person", which he admits to calling her in the statement. If you aren't aware of any mistake, wouldn't you just keep calling the person a "he" as he had originally thought?

For example, I've been in a situation where I met a person briefly who I thought was a man, but was actually a woman. I kept referring to this person as a man, and I never changed and began referring to her as anything but a man. It wasn't until days after that someone let me know that I had actually been talking to a woman. I'm sure she was offended, but at the same time it shows that I was 100% honestly mistaken and never realized it.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Don't see anything wrong with "this person". If I'm not sure what a persons gender is, what am I to say? Especially in a public forum like on stage?

 

[Trojita]

Never trust a brony.

Spoiler

Female Bronys are still called Bronys right?

 

[baphomet]

Never trust a brony.

Spoiler

Female Bronys are still called Bronys right?

Femares would be my guess.

 

[jonno394]

so basically they've with admitted he did nothing wrong. I like how the comedian apologised when he did nothing wrong, good man.

 

[Shinta]

so basically they've with admitted he did nothing wrong. I like how the comedian apologised when he did nothing wrong, good man.

He apologized twice actually, despite not actually doing anything wrong.

 

[Night Angel]

Femares would be my guess.

If that's not what they're called, it should be. Great guess either way.

 

[jonno394]

He apologized twice actually, despite not actually doing anything wrong.

Very good man then! She tried to wreck his career, if it was me id have let her take all the shit she created. Did she apologise for lying? edit - yes

 

[robotzombie]

Cool, so despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary and an actual admission by the accuser that she was mistaken, you have decided to cling to the hope that it is still possible this guy did something wrong.

If you are going to randomly cling to a previous statement and not accept the apology, why don't you just go back to when she said that he actively called her "this thing" and "it"?

 

[mollipen]

Don't downplay it, man. The internet needs this.

Please don't do this. There were a lot of mistakes made in this particular situation, but that doesn't negate the fact that people who are transgender still have huge barriers facing them in terms of being accepted by society, or the fact that there is still a very serious conversation that still needs to be had.

 

[witchedwiz]

So he/she, whatever sex feels him/her comfortable to be rererred as, lied, got the comedian deep in the internet-mud and scapegoated with a simple apology?
If that's the case it's beyond shitty...

 

[witchedwiz]

Very good man then! She tried to wreck his career, if it was me id have let her take all the shit she created. Did she apologise for lying? edit - yes

Fat good it did, the comedian got screwed high time over this...
He should sue the journo and then settle in court with a public apology from the culprit.

 

[Spehornoob]

What a shitty situation. The worst part is that it only hurts the cause. Each time there's an overreaction or manufactured outrage like this it makes people less and less likely to take the subjects seriously. I've caught myself rolling my eyes whenever a new feminism or gender issue arises among gamers, and it shouldn't be that way. Part of it's certainly my own fault, but situations like this don't help.

 

[border]

Never trust a brony.

Spoiler

Female Bronys are still called Bronys right?

Wouldn't it be a trony in this case?

 

[Wazzy]

I'm glad the two resolved it. It was a big misunderstanding and while she didn't handle it properly, they've discussed and made amends.

I thought I should address earlier posts:

I am sorry, I have tried really hard not to get involved in this topic. But she looks (on her Twitter) like a guy with a colored wig. There is some ambiguity there. Let me be clear: everybody deserves respect. But it isn't that strange for people to be confused on her gender or intentions. Be real: when all you do is wear a rainbow wig you can't expect people to address you as a woman.

Yeah, I've missed that calling her a him. I agree, that wasn't very nice.

But MrRegularGuy never argued that calling someone "it" isn't offensive. It's just that this instant public shaming of other people through social networks might not be the best way to handle such situations. Especially in cases like this one here, where after 5 days of discussion it's still not clear if that presenter was deliberately offensive to her, or if he was honestly confused about her gender.

This should be verified first before going public. And especially a journalist should handle such situations more professionally.

But no one called her "it", if we to believe eyewitnesses. We had at least 2 users first day in this thread, who saw this whole situation in person during EG Expo. They were first to say that comedian didn't tell anything offensive and it was honest mistake when he thought she was a male, that after realizing it he called her "this person". She herself backtracked on this statement and toned down her allegations and shifted her message to internet trolls and transgender haters in general.

I might be wrong, but I somewhat agree with this user, maybe his post is worded wrong, but making a huge deal of this whole situation just because you think you was insulted is a bit over the top, since again there is high chance she didn't refer to her as "it" at all, and he definitely didn't call her "he" or "guy" after he realized that this person is transgender. Same with websites that jumped on this story without checking the facts and generally took her side.

This is his post:

There are times that I worry about society...
If someone called me "it", I'd shrug it off. It's not as if they punch me in face and then had sex with my mother. But nowadays, everyone's a special snowflake, and getting called "it" warrants to take to social media and journalism sites, crying about social injustice.

There are legitimate times to complain, and that was not one of them. If you were offended, you privately and calmly discuss the issue with the individual like a big person should do
... Or in severe cases, you take it up with their employers privately.
You do not bring such a trivial matter out into the public over social media sites and news sites like a ten year old would... If I was the employer for the journalist, I'd fire him.

For the first poster quoted, if we're going by what the poster I quoted believed, there's a huge difference between just making a mistake and referring to someone as "It". You realize you've misgendered, you correct it, not call them a derogatory term used frequently against transgendered people. In this case, none of this actually happened of course and she was wrong but once again, I'm going on what the poster is believing and responding to that.

Second poster, he clearly is hand waving the negative connotations associated with calling someone transgendered an "It" and basically says he wouldn't be offended so why are others? Of course the social media thing is a problem but if this story had turned out true, would she have been in the wrong to go to twitter since she apparently couldn't originally get a hold of him? It's also especially odd for him to bring himself as an example to not get offended when he's not transgendered.

Finally, third poster, you've misunderstood what I was responding to. The poster in question believed the "It" story and was basing his attack off that. I know it isn't true, but he didn't and that's why his post was a problem.

 

[JABEE]

That joint statement is such a crock of shit. I was pretty mad at this dude until the truth came to light; now I feel bad for the guy. How about a more sincere apology for making up flat out lies, rather than having some stiff-sounding, PR-esque "joint statement" that's supposed to somehow make this all OK? Yeesh.

It's the only way the comedian can protect his career and she can save face for what she apparently lied about.

I grow tired of the culture of naming and shaming people. It's up there with vigilantism. It's just a sad state of affairs all around.

 

[Slappers Only]

Please don't do this. There were a lot of mistakes made in this particular situation, but that doesn't negate the fact that people who are transgender still have huge barriers facing them in terms of being accepted by society, or the fact that there is still a very serious conversation that still needs to be had.

Fair enough.

 

[Gestault]

It's the only way the comedian can protect his career and she can save face for what she apparently lied about.

I grow tired of the culture of naming and shaming people. It's up there with vigilantism. It's just a sad state of affairs all around.

To be fair, feeling that way you should have some sort of reaction to her stated goal of unprofessional naming and shaming, which only seemed to stop once other media reporting on it and other eyewitnesses made clear she might have been misreporting what had happened. We only got true confirmation when she did the Huffington Post write-up, but even that still contained falsehoods about the situation. That distinction is important. The same way people saying "the whole situation was a misunderstanding" aren't correct, because while the initial interaction was, every bit of her behavior in the follow up was not a simple misunderstanding. I'm glad the joint statement came out, because it allows the comedian to be cleared and allows the journalist to save face, but the reality of the events shouldn't be overlooked.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Laura Kate Dale and Fraser Millward have come to agree that the situation which took place at the Xbox stand at Eurogamer on Sunday 29th September was an unfortunate misunderstanding on both sides. It has now been made clear that Fraser did not refer to Laura as an 'it' or a 'thing' or a 'he', and these claims have now been fully retracted by Laura and she is sorry for the hurt this caused.

Good that she apologised, but why make the claims in the first place when she knew it was inaccurate and outright lies?

It's even more baffling considering this happened in front of a large audience, so she had to have known the truth would eventually come out...