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[A Link to the Past]

Wanted to call this out.
I don't think anyone has argued that hate mail is good. Hate mail is bad.

I think many people agree that anyone who causes a public scene will get hate mail. Many also lack sympathy for people who bring hate mail upon themselves through malicious and/or unprofessional actions. I think these people would also agree that it's sad her minority status gave mean people easy ammunition to use against her in the hate mail they sent.

What else is there to say? Both parties received hate mail, one likely moreso than the other, as a direct result of her choice to take to Twitter to lie and shame him.

What does constantly bringing it up prove? What's the solution? What's the desired end result of the discussion? That we all forgive and excuse her?

Query:

Is your suggestion that we excuse or forgive her based on stupidity, or dishonesty? Because I've explicitly - more than once - stated that she did wrong and created a bad situation. So either you're willfully ignoring what I'm saying, or you didn't have the sense to read the discussion that you attempt to participate in.

What value is there in ignoring the hate mail? What value is there in dismissing very specific hate mail? Should we not address any transphobia because otherwise it just somehow amounts to a blanket defense of any transgender person for anything they have done or will do?

The hate mail is not for her lies, as you very specifically lied about. She received an abundance of hate mail before anyone gave evidence that she was lying. The hate mail exists because of what she was and the fact that she was putting herself in the public eye. As I've said multiple times, if the hate mail came AFTER she was outed, it would at least make sense. I could at least understand - not condone, but understand - why the hate mail occurred. But it didn't. So I'm sorry if you are so chronically unable to understand why a recurring theme of transgender people being targeted for being transgender in the public eye is a serious problem that needs to be addressed as such every time it happens.

 

[Kikujiro]

Legitimately stupid ^

I've never defended her or condoned her actions. Not once. Don't be a fucking idiot and actually read more than you are willing to. The only thing - and I say only in the most literal fucking sense - I have ever defended her for was being attacked BEFORE ANY OF THE LIES WERE DISCOVERED. You're basically saying that being transgender on the Internet means you deserve to be threatened and harassed and abused. It doesn't fucking matter that she lied because the lies aren't why she received such negative attention. The spark that caused this was a group of people who decided to harass her solely for being transgender. For you to suggest that this is okay in any way or the result of her bad actions is bullshit because what she said was not what got her such negative attention. She could have been the most honest fucking person and she would have received the EXACT same shit. What she suffered was not consequences. What she suffered was transphobia. Adam Orth wasn't attacked for being straight, or white, or male, he was attacked for being an asshole. People weren't attacking her for being a liar. Learn the fucking difference in this shit.

Amazing, first you ask me to stop saying you defended her since you say didn't do it, then you accuse me of something I never did. Quote me on when did I say:
"That being transgender on the Internet means you deserve to be threatened and harassed and abused."
It feels bad to be accused of something you never did, right?
You're coming off as a defender for a simple reason, you're continuing to ignore the context of the story, changing the subject to the hate mails for no reason, since the first to be victim of hate mails was the comedian.

Oh and thank you very much for the personal insult.

 

[Dali]

Query:

Is your suggestion that we excuse or forgive her based on stupidity, or dishonesty? Because I've explicitly - more than once - stated that she did wrong and created a bad situation. So either you're willfully ignoring what I'm saying, or you didn't have the sense to read the discussion that you attempt to participate in.

What value is there in ignoring the hate mail? What value is there in dismissing very specific hate mail? Should we not address any transphobia because otherwise it just somehow amounts to a blanket defense of any transgender person for anything they have done or will do?

The hate mail is not for her lies, as you very specifically lied about. She received an abundance of hate mail before anyone gave evidence that she was lying. The hate mail exists because of what she was and the fact that she was putting herself in the public eye. As I've said multiple times, if the hate mail came AFTER she was outed, it would at least make sense. I could at least understand - not condone, but understand - why the hate mail occurred. But it didn't. So I'm sorry if you are so chronically unable to understand why a recurring theme of transgender people being targeted for being transgender in the public eye is a serious problem that needs to be addressed as such every time it happens.

How is hate mail supposed to be addressed on the Internet? I think the thing is there is so much hate on the Internet it's expected for one to grow thicker skin. It's never right or acceptable but until you create some sort of racist, homophobe, misogynist, trans anti hatred filter or change the thinking of everyone that would post such things you just deal with it. It comes with the internet and it has for some time. Women fighting for women's rights and in the public eye get it. Pretty much anything with a black person is gonna get it (ie. Youtube comments), effeminate gay person? Check. The list goes on down to trans. I think everyone here is just kind of scratching there head as this is nothing new to the internet.

 

[flatearthpandas]

Query:

Is your suggestion that we excuse or forgive her based on stupidity, or dishonesty? Because I've explicitly - more than once - stated that she did wrong and created a bad situation. So either you're willfully ignoring what I'm saying, or you didn't have the sense to read the discussion that you attempt to participate in.

What value is there in ignoring the hate mail? What value is there in dismissing very specific hate mail? Should we not address any transphobia because otherwise it just somehow amounts to a blanket defense of any transgender person for anything they have done or will do?

The hate mail is not for her lies, as you very specifically lied about. She received an abundance of hate mail before anyone gave evidence that she was lying. The hate mail exists because of what she was and the fact that she was putting herself in the public eye. As I've said multiple times, if the hate mail came AFTER she was outed, it would at least make sense. I could at least understand - not condone, but understand - why the hate mail occurred. But it didn't. So I'm sorry if you are so chronically unable to understand why a recurring theme of transgender people being targeted for being transgender in the public eye is a serious problem that needs to be addressed as such every time it happens.

I can give you the same query.
I never said she got hate mail for being a liar, but there is no arguing that the hate mail occurred as a result of her decision to step into the public eye to shame someone.

She is a minority and that gave mean people easy ammo, but I believe that she would have been a recipient of hate mail even if she was a cis WASP.

Again, what do you want me to do about it? What do you want anyone to do about it? Hate mail sucks but it happens and I don't see anything but belaboring of the fact that it happened as if it should have any influence on my or anyone's opinion of the incident. Do you have the silver bullet to end all hate mail? Is this is?

 

[paolo11]

This is a very controversial topic. I do hope this incident will not happen again. Even though Laura lied, there is no reason to bombard her with vile insults. The insults I see in Twitter are extremely intense.

Let me ask though. Since Laura lied or exaggerated her story, did she apologize to the comedian?

 

[George Oscar Bluth II]

I probably would've done the same as him if I were in his shoes. She doesn't exactly come across as female instantly to me, same with the GameSpot reviewer.

 

[GumDumpster]

Query:

Is your suggestion that we excuse or forgive her based on stupidity, or dishonesty? Because I've explicitly - more than once - stated that she did wrong and created a bad situation. So either you're willfully ignoring what I'm saying, or you didn't have the sense to read the discussion that you attempt to participate in.

What value is there in ignoring the hate mail? What value is there in dismissing very specific hate mail? Should we not address any transphobia because otherwise it just somehow amounts to a blanket defense of any transgender person for anything they have done or will do?

The hate mail is not for her lies, as you very specifically lied about. She received an abundance of hate mail before anyone gave evidence that she was lying. The hate mail exists because of what she was and the fact that she was putting herself in the public eye. As I've said multiple times, if the hate mail came AFTER she was outed, it would at least make sense. I could at least understand - not condone, but understand - why the hate mail occurred. But it didn't. So I'm sorry if you are so chronically unable to understand why a recurring theme of transgender people being targeted for being transgender in the public eye is a serious problem that needs to be addressed as such every time it happens.

Just stop, dude. I mean... you.

 

[GumDumpster]

Also, this chick is a shame to the community.

All hail, Laura-Jane Grace! Queen of Transgenders!

Also, her wife is amazing.

 

[Hex]

I can give you the same query.
I never said she got hate mail for being a liar, but there is no arguing that the hate mail occurred as a result of her decision to step into the public eye to shame someone.

She is a minority and that gave mean people easy ammo, but I believe that she would have been a recipient of hate mail even if she was a cis WASP.

Again, what do you want me to do about it? What do you want anyone to do about it? Hate mail sucks but it happens and I don't see anything but belaboring of the fact that it happened as if it should have any influence on my or anyone's opinion of the incident. Do you have the silver bullet to end all hate mail? Is this is?

This is exactly it.
If she was fat, black, asian, spanish, emo, hipster, had a lazy eye...it did not matter.
There would have been hatemail, and it would have been vicious and it would have been relentless.
Some things just are what they are and you have to put your agenda aside and see it for what it is.
This is not saying that tgs do not get alot of persecution and it is not trivializing it.
Using every excuse to jump on the soap box is part of the problem and what started this issue.
This never had to be a TG thing to begin with.
If the original journalist did not immediately thing that she was being singled out and insulted because she was tg, she would not have ran to twitter to rant to the frothing hordes.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Also, this chick is a shame to the community.

All hail, Laura-Jane Grace! Queen of Transgenders!

Also, her wife is amazing.

I met her back when she still identified as Tom Gabel and she was extremely nice to me. I was a teenager and it was my first punk show.

One of my favorite songs from Against Me! was an old one I knew they really didn't play anymore. I asked her if they would be playing it that night and she said she could "See what they could do." They get up on stage and lead off with the song I requested. I'm not 100% sure that wasn't what they were planning to do anyway, but I know they hadn't played it any other show on the tour before that.

 

[miDnIghtEr20C]

I haven't read up on any of this since the transgender claimed a MS employee made fun of her on stage. Then I saw that it was a comedian hired by MS... Now I'm reading that the transgender lied about it all?

Can someone post me a small little recap of what the newest news is. I'll find this hilarious if this person was just lying the whole time.

 

[Dark Octave]

Also, this chick is a shame to the community.
All hail, Laura-Jane Grace! Queen of Transgenders!

Also, her wife is amazing.

What did she do?

 

[eighty(one)]

Also, this chick is a shame to the community.

All hail, Laura-Jane Grace! Queen of Transgenders!

Also, her wife is amazing.

Man, I love Against Me's music. The former Tom G. Now Laura, has my support.

Sad about the aftermath for both this journalist and comedian (dumbTwitter fiasco). Misunderstandings can have intense repercussions for both sides of the fence.

Hope it all simmers down.

Simmerdon.

Simmerdonna.

 

[inky]

This peson is offensive from a mis-genedering aspect?!

Hate to be a dick, but how does that make sense?

She thought that she was being singled out. And well, she was in a way by being called that. I take it the presenter didn't want to say the wrong thing and for her he ended up doing exactly that.

Too bad she had to make up a bunch of stuff and take it to twitter so emotionally.

 

[toymachine]

What did she do?

Accepted her for who she is?

 

[john tv]

That joint statement is such a crock of shit. I was pretty mad at this dude until the truth came to light; now I feel bad for the guy. How about a more sincere apology for making up flat out lies, rather than having some stiff-sounding, PR-esque "joint statement" that's supposed to somehow make this all OK? Yeesh.

 

[sn00zer]

Once again the internet jumps the gun before the facts are laid out...NEWS AT 11

 

[Miss Riot]

I hope the journo realizes that by doing this shit, it makes it harder for people to examine and properly process real cases of this that happen. thanks for making life harder for people that already have a hard time, male or female, cis or not. this hurts equality of all kinds. the people who hate or are even slightly prejudice against trans people will dig in their heels a little more, and it's just a shame.

 

[Geedorah]

Also, this chick is a shame to the community.

All hail, Laura-Jane Grace! Queen of Transgenders!

...

Also, her wife is amazing.
...

What did she do?

Accepted her for who she is?

I think that the "what she do" comment was the to bold, which was asking why the person was a shame to the community - which isn't about the musician but instead about the journalist for lying.

Phew.

 

[GrizzleBoy]

That joint statement is such a crock of shit. I was pretty mad at this dude until the truth came to light; now I feel bad for the guy. How about a more sincere apology for making up flat out lies, rather than having some stiff-sounding, PR-esque "joint statement" that's supposed to somehow make this all OK? Yeesh.

Has the statement been made yet?

 

[Trojita]

 

[toymachine]

I think that the "what she do" comment was the to bold, which was asking why the person was a shame to the community - which isn't about the musician but instead about the journalist for lying.

Phew.

Damn, I was hoping they were interested in the positive part of that post. Oh well.

 

[toymachine]

Has the statement been made yet?

Laura Kate Dale and Fraser Millward have come to agree that the situation which took place at the Xbox stand at Eurogamer on Sunday 29th September was an unfortunate misunderstanding on both sides. It has now been made clear that Fraser did not refer to Laura as an 'it' or a 'thing' or a 'he', and these claims have now been fully retracted by Laura and she is sorry for the hurt this caused. Fraser caused offence to Laura on stage when he publicly misgendered her by addressing her as 'this person'. Laura was also upset by statements which she saw as suggesting that she was not female. Fraser is sorry he said this, and for the pain he inadvertently caused Laura. Both parties wish to put the situation behind them and consider this matter now resolved.

http://www.frasermillward.com/apps/blog/eurogamer-expo-2013-joint-statement-from-laura

 

[mullet2000]

That joint statement is such a crock of shit. I was pretty mad at this dude until the truth came to light; now I feel bad for the guy. How about a more sincere apology for making up flat out lies, rather than having some stiff-sounding, PR-esque "joint statement" that's supposed to somehow make this all OK? Yeesh.

I pretty much agree with you.

The "this person" line came from being flustered and not knowing how to refer to her properly, so he went with a neutral term. Wouldn't a simple correction like "actually I like to be referred to as "this woman"" have been a million times more appropriate?

A lot of people never encounter this situation so they genuainely don't know what to do. A quick 3 second comment can educate them and completely diffuse the situation, but instead stuff was made up (I don't buy that she could have just misheard being called a thing, I'm sorry) and this guy's reputation was put on the line. Extremely inappropriate, and being upset is no excuse for it happening.

 

[uncledonnie]

http://www.frasermillward.com/apps/blog/eurogamer-expo-2013-joint-statement-from-laura

Needs to be added to the OP. What a mess, she hurt her cause more than she helped it with all of this.

 

[AkuMifune]

If you're going to play the victim card you'd better not exaggerate what happened, because then you're not the victim anymore. What a mess. She's done more harm than good in the end.

EDIT: Hah! Same sentiment. Yeah.

 

[blackflag]

No one here is defending the hatemail so I don't really get your agenda.

 

[toymachine]

the moral of the story is if you see someone that seems to be dressed like a woman just refer to them as such. Trying to use gender neutral terms seems to be a bad course of action.

 

[Trojita]

the moral of the story is if you see someone that seems to be dressed like a woman just refer to them as such. Trying to use gender neutral terms seems to be a bad course of action.

No, that isn't the moral of the story. The most "progressive" countries actually promote gender neutral pronouns to get rid of these problems.

 

[JustProgress]

Lol wow. She was upset because he called her "this person." Fuck her honestly, causing this mess because of that.

 

[Night Angel]

the moral of the story is if you see someone that seems to be dressed like a woman just refer to them as such. Trying to use gender neutral terms seems to be a bad course of action.

Err... no?

Edit: what Trojita said. Gender neutral phrasing is designed to be inoffensive and unassuming. Seems to be the best choice to me.

 

[DyTonic]

Serious question, for those who get overly sensitive and what to ban people.

Do you refer to someone like that as he or she despite the lifestyle change?

 

[Miss Riot]

Serious question, for those who get overly sensitive and what to ban people.

Do you refer to someone like that as he or she despite the lifestyle change?

you refer to them with what they identify as. if you aren't sure, don't pick a side.

 

[Kintaro]

So, in the end, it was a misunderstanding blown out of proportion by the need to publicly shame. Wonderful.

She has hurt herself way more than she realizes. Who will take anything she writes seriously now?

 

[toymachine]

No, that isn't the moral of the story. The most "progressive" countries actually promote gender neutral pronouns to get rid of these problems.

Not everyone has a tumblr account, sad to say

 

[DyTonic]

you refer to them with what they identify as. if you aren't sure, don't pick a side.

I'd guess I'd just say the person name imo I don't feel right calling someone of a certain sex what they aren't.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

It honestly seems like this would of been better if it wasn't handled in the limelight of twitter and more behind the scenes. I get what she did is wrong. Just feels like another reminder that transgender people like me aren't welcome to be around and that it's better to just keep it to myself.

I'm pretty sure that similar twitter shitstorms (misunderstanding thar become slander, public shamming and lying ) has happened in twitter in not LGBT related incidents.

 

[GrizzleBoy]

http://www.frasermillward.com/apps/blog/eurogamer-expo-2013-joint-statement-from-laura

Wow what a load of crap.

The statement basically says she lied, he made an honest mistake and that they're both equally sorry?

Lol.......

edit: what does LGBT mean? Every time I see it, my brain defaults to "TBoGT" :/

 

[rvy]

So, in the end, it was a misunderstanding blown out of proportion by the need to publicly shame. Wonderful.

She has hurt herself way more than she realizes. Who will take anything she writes seriously now?

I don't know that anybody did prior to this fiasco.

 

[Geedorah]

the moral of the story is if you see someone that seems to be dressed like a woman just refer to them as such. Trying to use gender neutral terms seems to be a bad course of action.

Yeah, don't think there is a cure-all like that; nor should it be the moral of the story. Takeaway from this whole situation should be that one shouldn't go running to a public forum like Twitter to smear a person without calming down.

 

[ShinMaruku]

More like people on the internet in general. It's not some systemic phenomenon unique to the gaming community for fuck's sake and this meme needs to stop.

I don't think it's anonymity because look at twitter. I just think a bunch of people are fucks. Regardless of anonymity.

 

[sophora]

I'm pretty sure that similar twitter shitstorms (misunderstanding thar become slander, public shamming and lying ) has happened in twitter in not LGBT related incidents.

Um yeah? Not sure what you're trying to say.

 

[toymachine]

edit: what does LGBT mean? Every time I see it, my brain defaults to "TBoGT" :/

lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Um yeah? Not sure what you're trying to say.

That the situation has less to do with this:

I get what she did is wrong. Just feels like another reminder that transgender people like me aren't welcome to be around and that it's better to just keep it to myself

And more with handling it in bad manner.

 

[Reishiki]

Anything that hands the TERFs more ammo to use against us makes me twitchy.

 

[rvy]

edit: what does LGBT mean? Every time I see it, my brain defaults to "TBoGT" :/

Are you me?

 

[Kai Dracon]

I don't think it's anonymity because look at twitter. I just think a bunch of people are fucks. Regardless of anonymity.

There is a modification to the GIFT comic which replaces +Anonymity with -Accountability

That's the secret IMO. People sit behind a computer and it's not about names and faces, but the feeling that anything they do there isn't real and won't have consequences because of physical distance.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

So the crux of this is that it seems to have been a misunderstanding on both fronts, except that Laura K or whatever her name is massively exagerrated if not outright lied on her Twitter feed? That's pretty awful. Seems like most if not all of this might have been avoided if the Xbox PR had just let her speak to the guy after the show.

 

[sophora]

That the situation has less to do with this:



And more with handling it in bad manner.

Maybe I should of elaborated more on why I said "what she did was wrong" and said it could of been handled better instead of being too vague, I thought I was succinct enough.

I guess I was wrong to post my thoughts and feelings around stuff like this and just keep it "relevant"

 

[Dark Octave]

I think that the "what she do" comment was the to bold, which was asking why the person was a shame to the community - which isn't about the musician but instead about the journalist for lying.

Phew.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up.