Salvor.Hardin
Banned
I don't know how anyone can read that tweet and think that they're bragging about the meals they served to employees at their desk.
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Ryse crunching team served 11,500 dinners by ship date #rysefacts
- Thread starter Wario64
- Start date
I don't know how anyone can read that tweet and think that they're bragging about the meals they served to employees at their desk.
AlphaTwo00
Member
Most recent GDMag survey for 2013 (Page 15):
http://twvideo01.ubm-us.net/o1/vault/GD_Mag_Archives/GDM_April_2013.pdf
Note the breakdown for just job category, and also for Regional/Country differences.
As a (very junior, just out of university) programmer, I started out in 2001 on £18k. (Note pounds not dollars). Eight years later that'd gone up to £26k. All IIRC, I concede.
I shouldn't talk about my current salary, but I will say that it's (what I would regard as) significantly higher.
Steve Youngblood
Member
Well, I don't know if I would consider it full on bragging, but what would you argue is the purpose of that tweet? Why would a company desire to make this bit of trivia known to the public?
To show everyone how hard they're working on Ryse to make it an awesome launch title with great animation. IDK, some people are interested by things like this.
Crunch has always been worst when I worked in a smaller studio, due to management overpromising what the studio as a whole can do with the headcount they have, feature creep and hitting publisher milestones in time.
It has been most lax and almost non-existant in larger studios I've been at, so I'm surprised to see this culture being promoted at Crytek.
Backfoggen
Banned
Have the devs complained?
Steve Youngblood
Member
I feel like there's a disconnect here. I understand that the intent wasn't specifically to boast about how little time employees get to spend with their families, or to want accolades for buying dinners necessarily. But the point of what I've quoted still serves to highlight that -- in bragging/boasting/highlighting the amount of work that's going into the title -- it still follows that for people critical of crunch time they're shining a light on the fact that this is 11,500 dinners that weren't eaten at home.
Perfect fit for "don't bite the hand that feeds you"?
AlphaTwo00
Member
Remember how Beyond had the giant stack of paper to show how much time and effort gone into the script? That might have killed a few more trees than most games, and many puns about descriptors for QTEs, but it never gave the hint that employees were slaving away during crunch time and fed meals away from families.
BloodMoney
Banned
As if employer paid meals in any way justify overtime.
I don't know. Did any of them decide they don't want to work for a big studio anymore?
Yeah, I get that crunch time isn't exactly healthy for people in terms of work/life balance, but crunch is a known evil you accept by working as a dev in the industry. That doesn't excuse its existence or particularly bad crunch time demands, but I just don't feel that bad for people who knew what they were getting into.
I get what you're saying. Crunch-time even on small, sub-contracted projects wears your down, but respectfully: Are we specifically accusing this studio of mistreating its staff? Do you think people on the team would themselves be upset by the original Tweet? Would not pointing out the amount of late-day time put in by the team be better?
I have trouble reading most of these reactions as anything but a disproportionate sort of crocodile-tears. A few definitely understand the personal cost and frustration behind a "fact" like this, but if anything, this post is recognizing that sacrifice. Having a studio go out of its way to treat you well during the awful (but necessary) final stretch on project work is a good thing.
Doesn't matter if it is a big or small studio have you seen indie game the movie? Well even then when they do a crunch is just bad not only for there health but also there family.
Prime crotch
Banned
Paying dinners during crunch time isn't treating you well, it's standart practice, and that final stretch if necessary only shows the faults of management.
Steve Youngblood
Member
It's possible that employees were thrilled by the free dinners, and morale was just fine. And I understand that dev teams on AAA games are large, and thus "11,500" dinners may not account for as long a period as some think. But again, I think it's clear that we're not on the same page here.
Now granted, we don't have all the facts. Perhaps the team is really invested in the project. Perhaps they'll get a big payday in the end for all their hard work and are happy to roll up their sleeves and get this over with. However, in and of itself, I don't consider buying employees dinners to be a company going out of its way to make employees happy. Mind you, it's something. But I'm certainly not going to applaud that act.
Further, this sub-conversation started because someone asked "how is that tweet bragging?" And the responses you and braves01 are offering me don't exactly make it clear how they aren't boasting here with that tweet. Further, I reject that long crunch times are inherently necessary to the industry, and not indicative of dubious management/priorities.
yellow submarine
Member
If you're making significantly less than 100k in the Bay Area (SF etc) as a developer, you are getting totally screwed. I'd start looking for a new job if so and see how good the market is right now for devs.
GrizzleBoy
Banned
So say you've got a contract to launch a game in 2014 parallel to a predetermined console launch, but the console launch is moved forward.
Does that signify immediately and impossible to argue against failure of management, or does it signify working to meet variable circumstances?
Again, I really hate all this hypothetical crap regarding this specific case.
Its like having an discussion with a group of friends about precisely how long a piece of string is. Everyone has their own ideas and none of the facts.
(In fact I'd argue that most people would be sensible enough to reserve absolute judgement until they actually got their ruler out and measured the piece of string).
Many industries have overtime, but not many are such an institutionalized aspect of the job to make the assumption that this is and should be a "normal" thing. From the number of dinners posted, it is hard to say how long or how many people are impacted by this, but it is a large figure. What ends up making me feel bad more than things of this nature are the "in living memory of" and "celebrating births of" sections of the credits, since you know the folks directly impacted by this probably missed those events entirely and just had to suck it up and deal with it.
I think this is my point: if we're calling out the practice of crunch-time development at a project's end? I'm right there with you. But from personal experience, even on "small" (tiny, to be honest) projects, it *is* a universal practice. So I'd say assuming one company calling attention to those efforts and making a point to say they were providing meals for the team in that situation isn't the first place to start with criticism, when aside from that recognition, there's not a single complaint, external or otherwise, that the team is being particularly mistreated.
I have more issue with companies hiding the sort of work conditions their teams operate under for the games we all enjoy. Also, to clarify my "crocodile-tears" comments, I'll sort of nod my head toward the posts laughing about things like post-development layoffs. Hilarious, right?
level_e11even
Banned
PetriP-TNT
Member
And it was the rice not looking like, you know, rise but now I agree, it is better
Salvor.Hardin
Banned
1) It's a silly number and it's fun to look at silly numbers related to mundane topics.
2) They're working hard on a product and they want the customer to know and appreciate it.
It's just incredibly odd to think that they're bragging. There's nothing to brag about. What could they possibly be bragging about?
Steve Youngblood
Member
Again, how is that not bragging? I still don't understand the point you were originally contesting.
Epic is known for their compensation packages to their employees -- some of the most highly compensated devs in the industry, I believe.
Prime crotch
Banned
When dealing with things as fickle as console launch dates? Yeah, probably. I'd say they even penned the contract with crunch time already in-mind.
RSLAEV
Member
Fine- let's assume they're serving them 5 star meals at a restaurant down the street. The point is I think most employees would rather go *HOME*
I love my job, but if it came down to being here an few extra hours and getting a great meal or going home on time I would go home, because I have a life outside of work-at least I try to have one.
It's really unnerving to see how many people have no problem with employees getting run through a meat grinder just so you can get your shiny new electronic toy/videogame.
"Well they knew what they were getting into! This is a normal part of the industry, and feeling bad for them won't change anything. In fact I feel it's more noble to be up front and genuine about my indifference than to try to impress people with my righteous indignation!"<---a poster that I disagree with.
How can you not see this as them just patting themselves on the back (aka bragging) for keeping their employees working OT.
Goodacre0081
Member
judging by all the layoffs this past generation. job security in the gaming industry is a tough thing to find.
Salvor.Hardin
Banned
It can't be considered bragging because there isn't an intent to boast about the dinners being served. Instead they're simply shining a light on how hard they are working by producing a silly number that I think most people who do work long hours can empathize with.
If the tone were different, if it were boastful, I would agree that they would be bragging. But it really isn't. They're not saying "These dudes should be glad we're feeding them while they slave away." which is kind of how this tweet seems to be interpreted by a few people in this very thread. I think that's intellectually dishonest.
This controversy being based almost entirely on assumptions and hypothetical scenarios is my entire issue.
But, yeah, "Crunch time defense force", or something. This is a manufactured controversy because the only actual fact we have about the abhorrent working conditions at Crytek is... how many times they got to eat dinner at the office.
As I've said before, it was a silly, innocuous tweet (that probably shouldn't have had "Enter" pressed on it), but a flimsy springboard for a serious discussion about the industry and the working conditions of Crytek. There's not enough "meat" here for a legit controversy, that's how I feel.
Steve Youngblood
Member
And I think you are needlessly splitting hairs to try and make a point. Do you want to know what most definitely wouldn't be interpreted as bragging? Not publicly tweeting this fact at all.
We can agree to disagree if you want, but personally, I don't see the importance in distinguishing that this is simply meant to highlight all the hard work just to disallow people making reasonable inferences based on the comment.
Steve Youngblood
Member
I would take issue with the phrase "got to." If it is indeed the case that employees were offered dinner in the event that they optionally stayed late, that'd be a pretty nice gesture. But generally speaking, I don't think they "got to" in as much as they were served dinner because they were required to stay.
And whether it's fair to Crytek or not, I think it's important to understand that many times, conversations arise as a result of occurrences often highlight a broader point. I think many of the people lashing out just object to crunch time and its prevalence. Perhaps Crytek isn't the most opportune target (as facts may or may not later show), but I don't necessarily think a lot of the conversation occurring is strictly about this tweet in as much as its about the practice itself.
Salvor.Hardin
Banned
Well that's certainly true, but I'm not going to fault a company because some people may misinterpret the tone of a tweet.
I am not suggesting that we disallow people to make inferences.
I sort of agree, ignoring intent because that's hard to determine, my gut reaction (especially as one who has done the crunch) was "God, that's awful, why would you ever share that detail". I imagine I'm not the only one who reacted that way. Just don't tweet that. Dumb.
While I can't be sure this is what they were trying to get across, but I think the distinction you're looking for is the difference between recognizing something and boasting about it. And to be fair, I think what I wrote a little higher up tries to address what you're asking here.
It's one of the principles of Klei to avoid crunch. There's a good piece on them on polygon:
http://www.polygon.com/features/2013/5/29/4362838/the-birth-and-re-birth-of-klei
The video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsBIE2njA80
Steve Youngblood
Member
My position is that it becomes more difficult to make that distinction that I'm not boasting about something that pertains to me when I'm the one calling attention to it. Now, again, I can understand that this wasn't necessarily meant to be something they were bragging about, but it's not relevant to the game itself and as such wasn't an important bit of info that needed to be tweeted. Perhaps this assessment is unfair -- and obviously we can't read the mind of the person who tweeted it as to his intent -- but I certainly don't think it's unfair to infer that this tweet is boasting. Whether it's about "hard work" or "we are an awesome company that pays for employee meals" is largely unimportant to me.
Trogdor1123
Member
The people responding to this blow my mind...
TheJollyCorner
Member
why?
This is what concerns me: you appear to have shifted from decrying industry practices that strain developers (which more people should be aware of) to a view that it would be better to have not recognized the behind-the-scenes (and in many way, after-hours) work that goes into these projects. Your reaction to this gives the impression that you think a positive thing you say about yourself almost necessarily falls into the category of bragging. That leaves about as much room for nuance as a 16-ton steel beam. You say it's fair to call this Tweet boasting, but that considering whether the Tweet is accurate or well-intentioned is largely unimportant to you. That sounds like a troubling view to me.
My gut instinct tells me there were a lot of frozen tv dinners microwaved.
Generalisation: Most games don't work until the final development push. It's putting everything together and ensuring it doesn't fall apart at the seems. Demos can be separate builds (that ironically takes additional resource outside of the core). Hence crunch time. And day one patches. Nature of the beast. Oh, and the variables in game development would be crazy when planning. As a project manager you'd want tolerence safety nets and strict scope and requirements. But that's gone with a launch day title or publisher demands. You have to hit that date. Cuttin' is shippin', innit.
my experience with developers suggests lots of party pizzas.
Messofanego
Banned
Of course they forgot that the place they are calling only does burgers and they don't deliver.