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[tinfoilhatman]

I'm taking a wait and see approach, right now the 499$ price tag is killing it for me if there was price parity I could MAYBE be swayed to the X1 due to the fact that the launch games appeal to me far more.

I'm not paying more money for less hardware........like I said wait and see the multiplatform comparisons will be key to my eventual purchase decision.

 

[Ascended Saiyan]

I bet the norm will be 900-720p for PS4 too. Just to get some extra effects / better framerate.

You already lost the bet

Haha

 

[Diablos]

You already lost the bet

Haha

heh heh heh

 

[something fishy]

From what I can see the bone has 3 retail games and the PS4 has 2. How is that a LOT more? Driveclub being delayed made it only 2. Here is a nice little detailed graph I found at this link that shows the breakdown of all the games on both systems at launch and into 2014.

http://imgur.com/fjqiYLi

fair point, some I had in mind are being released as downloadable I think.

so forza, dr3, ryse, Killer Instinct v ks and knack.

taste in games is going to be a major factor I'd think.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

Good stuff from CBOAT. Looks like the console will have long legs after all. If Sony could do it with PS3, MS surely can as well.

900P in 2020? No thanks.

 

[Gaz_RB]

heh heh heh

lmao

 

[FaintColt388301]

900P in 2020? No thanks.

I don't know why I didn't even think about that. Seeing that year put me back a little.

How sad

 

[something fishy]

I don't know why I didn't even think about that. Seeing that year put me back a little.

How sad

it'll be here soon enough. 2005 seems like yesterday.

i'll be into my 50's. blimey.

 

[PanicFreak]

PS2 had the best titles going into last gen and we see what happened there. Sony invested the entire last generation bolstering their first-party lineup when most of the PS2 franchises went multi-platform. Microsoft managed to lose the primary dev for Halo, lose Epic for GoW, milk the last teat Fable had left and make a bunch of Kinect shovelware.

With PS4 undoubtedly selling more units than Xbone this gen those moneyhat exclusive windows for Xbone are going to get harder and harder to pull off. Microsoft's entire "third-party leads on Xbox" strategy that worked so well last gen will evaporate this time around.

So if you're betting on game, PS4 is the safe bet. Unless you *must* have a Halo2k14 created by a B team.

Are you saying that you don't expect Microsoft to bolster its first party line-up? Are you also expecting that none of Sony's talent will be poached by competitors?

 

[tipoo]

Why are you talking about the 3000 series? The 5000 series hit in 2009 dude. The 5770 is a 1.38TFlop card with 76GB/s memory bandwidth, 16ROPs, etc.. Sound familiar?

That launched in October 2009, 4 years ago. And was immediately in the 3rd tier due to the 5800 and 5900 tiers hitting in the same timeframe.

the power of the X1 was 3rd tier in 2009.

That has to tell you something .... maybe ...

Not at all. Look at the actual benchmarks of those cards vs GCN cards with theoretically worse Tflops, the Tflop-plus GCN series will still usually win against theoretically higher 5000 series parts. So really, you're proving my point more.

 

[andromeduck]

Are you saying that you don't expect Microsoft to bolster its first party line-up? Are you also expecting that none of Sony's talent will be poached by competitors?

after what happened to Rare I doubt sony has much to worry about

 

[HawksWinStanley]

It seems like resolution and frame rate will always provide ammo in the console wars but honestly imo the launch games on XB1 are more impressive overall. If they're already able to achieve games that look that good at launch then I don't think XB1 owners will have much to worry about.

 

[GenericUser]

I probably not a member of the inner circle, but I think its childish not to write the statements in plain proper english.

 

[Gaz_RB]

I probably not a member of the inner circle, but I think its childish not to write the statements in plain proper english.

Hmmm

 

[Jburton]

I probably not a member of the inner circle, but I think its childish not to write the statements in plain proper english.

Whoosh ....... right over your head.

 

[Mr.Speedy]

900P in 2020? No thanks.

Initially, I would agree but Forza 5 looks pretty decent on a 4k 84" TV.

http://www.dualshockers.com/2013/10...on-the-gigantic-worlds-first-84-inches-4k-tv/

 

[model13]

900p versus 1080p is not a big deal to me. Comparing side by side screenshots, of course I can see the difference. But in motion, the diffetence is barely noticable on my tv setup.

The bigger question for me is which system will have the games that I enjoy the most. This ultimately led me to bet on the xbox.

As for the rest of this thread, I guess I shouldnt be surprised it turned into a pissing match, but I am disappointed.

 

[FairXchange]

fair point, some I had in mind are being released as downloadable I think.

so forza, dr3, ryse, Killer Instinct v ks and knack.

taste in games is going to be a major factor I'd think.

Taste in games for launch titles is as short sighted as in gets. Who talks about Kameo or Resistance 1 anymore? There's a trove of games available in the last 3 years alone that make the decision to purchase a console more relevant, including Halo on the Xbox or The Last of Us on PS3. My point being, launch games are pretty well immaterial for what you get down the pipeline and many people are investing in PS4 for the guarantee of top quality 1st party titles.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Is this the thread where we come to discuss ESRAM?

Yeah. It should prove to be a nice benefit to X1 over time, once developers have worked out the kinks, similar to PS2 EDRAM. I mean, fast low latency on-chip memory is something good to have. It will take time and experience to reach the point where it is seen a fairly beneficial component of the architecture and much less of a band-aid to bandwidth as it seems to be now. Nowhere to go but up.

 

[PanicFreak]

after what happened to Rare I doubt sony has much to worry about

So only the relative failures are worthy of consideration when thinking about what Microsoft may do in the future?

 

[nickthebiggeek]

It seems like resolution and frame rate will always provide ammo in the console wars but honestly imo the launch games on XB1 are more impressive overall. If they're already able to achieve games that look that good at launch then I don't think XB1 owners will have much to worry about.

So if we use this logic PS4 games will still look better than Xboxone since they are the only true looking nex-gen games right now?

 

[andromeduck]

does the xbone even have a graphically intensive title running at 1080p 60fps?

NBA and FIFA are pretty simple graphically no?

 

[Mr.Speedy]

Taste in games for launch titles is as short sighted as in gets. Who talks about Kameo or Resistance 1 anymore? There's a trove of games available in the last 3 years alone that make the decision to purchase a console more relevant, including Halo on the Xbox or The Last of Us on PS3. My point being, launch games are pretty well immaterial for what you get down the pipeline and many people are investing in PS4 for the guarantee of top quality 1st party titles.

I'm investing in an X1 because out of all the announced games for 2013 -2014 for both consoles, there are a lot more games I think are top quality, I want to play and are only coming out on X1. A large majority of the games that are only coming out on the PS4 for 2013 - 2014 don't interest me. So, back to your main point, I agree taste is going to play a large factor this gen.

 

[KoopaTheCasual]

does the xbone even have a graphically intensive title running at 1080p 60fps?

NBA and FIFA are pretty simple graphically no?

Forza.

edit: but if you mean like a campaign game, no.

 

[FaintColt388301]

Taste in games for launch titles is as short sighted as in gets. Who talks about Kameo or Resistance 1 anymore? There's a trove of games available in the last 3 years alone that make the decision to purchase a console more relevant, including Halo on the Xbox or The Last of Us on PS3. My point being, launch games are pretty well immaterial for what you get down the pipeline and many people are investing in PS4 for the guarantee of top quality 1st party titles.

I was about to say the same thing. It's weird to me that people are making decisions based on launch line up. What really matters for me is who has better studios, who do companies want to work with/for, who has shown a good pedigree in the past in terms of games. For me all signs point to playstation. The games they put out these past couple of years have been great in both quality and variety. Consoles are investments and, unless you are planning on getting both at some point, when deciding you should think past launch titles

 

[HawksWinStanley]

So if we use this logic PS4 games will still look better than Xboxone since they are the only true looking nex-gen games right now?

Yeah sure, if you want to say that it's probably true. But I wasn't comparing it to PS4, I was just commenting on how good the XB1's games are looking regardless of frames and pixels. What they're doing with Ryse is really impressive.

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

Ever notice that when people list ps4 launch games versus Xbox one launch games, they always list the big digital xbox games, but only list retail exclusives on the ps4?

 

[andromeduck]

So only the relative failures are worthy of consideration when thinking about what Microsoft may do in the future?

no what I'm saying is Microsoft doesn't have as remotely much experience as sony in this regard

it's not impossible but improbable they should edge a creative advantage over sony through major acquisitions

 

[gofreak]

Yeah. It should prove to be a nice benefit to X1 over time, once developers have worked out the kinks, similar to PS2 EDRAM.

PS2 eDRAM offered lashings more bandwidth than was standard at the time, 15 times the system's main memory bandwidth. X1's is merely bringing the bandwidth situation up to a more reasonable contemporary level vs DDR3 on its own. The latency doesn't seem to be a key win, according to MS themselves....the latency to CPU is high and GPUs are designed to be latency tolerant.

 

[Gaz_RB]

Ever notice that when people list ps4 launch games versus Xbox one launch games, they always list the big digital xbox games, but only list retail exclusives on the ps4?

Nah, I'd even argue that the opposite is true sometimes. Just depends on the poster and possibly his bias.

 

[andromeduck]

Forza.

edit: but if you mean like a campaign game, no.

riiiiiiight

thought that was 30 fps for some reason

 

[Pain]

From what I can see the bone has 3 retail games and the PS4 has 2. How is that a LOT more? Driveclub being delayed made it only 2. Here is a nice little detailed graph I found at this link that shows the breakdown of all the games on both systems at launch and into 2014.

http://imgur.com/fjqiYLi

You mean exclusives right?
So the one with the most exclusives is the better system? Is that your logic?

EDIT: Looks like I misread your comment but it can still apply to some people. Sorry :/

 

[MightyHedgehog]

PS2 eDRAM offered lashings more bandwidth than was standard at the time, 15 times the system's main memory bandwidth. X1's is merely bringing the bandwidth situation up to a more reasonable contemporary level vs DDR3 on its own. The latency doesn't seem to be a key win, according to MS themselves....the latency to CPU is high and GPUs are designed to be latency tolerant.

Whatever about the comparison to PS2 for relative bandwidth, the benefits are still there to allow upwards of relatively large data structures with high access patterns to be available on demand near to the chip instead of waiting on going to main memory and dealing with whatever extra considerations there are for contention. MS clearly designed this with the intention of mitigating this potential issue with its inclusion of additional prefetching options and added logic (in their custom hardware scheduler which has not been discussed in detail yet, likely because of currently non-optimal software defining its behavior) and extra data move units to help that happen more seamlessly and with less burden placed upon the GPU itself. Looking just at the local memory isn't enough when they put all of these pieces in there to facilitate some sort of ideal operation based on future expectations of its use through the lifetime of the hardware. I am not stating that it will be the secret sauce that puts it over its competition, I am stating that the clear philosophy of the system is to offload as much traditional, general tasks and its burden off what it very weak tablet/laptop class hardware, specwise, so that they're getting more useful output for the duration of its active development. They put a lot of fixed function hardware in there to help that happen. Whether that benefits them in the first wave or fourth wave of software, no one knows. I assume that they're banking on the usual trajectory of console development where teams have to dig deeper and deeper to produce greater advancements in output and, by simple matter of course, they have to rearchitect their software every wave or two to take better advantage of the aging hardware they have to work with. It's not a different idea to Mark Cerny's presumption that PS4 developers will gain more in later years by going deeper into hardware that is barely utilized or not at all in the early going.

 

[Crawl]

Did microsoft just ken kutaragi their system?

EDIT: Power of the cloud = Cell drawing power from your dish washer and dryer?

 

[Vizzeh]

Most of sonys games will likely be 1080p, likely later in the gen, im sure they will get better at unlocking the GPU power and other resources better, which will blow our minds, if the next step after that is 900p id be happy with that...720p is unacceptable though. WAY too old.

Do we know anything about the upscale chips, how good it is... as personally i notice some form of lag when forcing the tv to do the upscaling from 720p to 1080p, on a 720p sigal its sweet as a nut.... So being 720p as unacceptable as it is will run lag free if the source signal is 720p, but can X1 users expect a little lag on 720p with a 1080p source signal or even worse a 900p with a 1080p source signal (since 900p cannot be selected as source)

720p game - 720p source - no lag
720p game - 1080 source- a little lag - upscaling required
1080p game - 1080p source - no lag
900pgame - 1080p source a tiny bit lag? - upscaling require

Based on last gen^
Wonder how good the upscalers are.

 

[N.Domixis]

Ever notice that when people list ps4 launch games versus Xbox one launch games, they always list the big digital xbox games, but only list retail exclusives on the ps4?

Yep, they list killer instinct and project spark. But exclude Sonys.

 

[PanicFreak]

no what I'm saying is Microsoft doesn't have as remotely much experience as sony in this regard

it's not impossible but improbable they should edge a creative advantage over sony through major acquisitions

Who said anything about a major acquisition? If there was going to be one any time recently, it should have been BioWare. Those days are pretty much past.

In the last couple of years they have purchased Twisted Pixel and Press Play. They have begun building from the foundation up.

 

[Vizzeh]

Yep, they list killer instinct and project spark. But exclude Sonys.

http://uk.ign.com/articles/2013/10/23/sony-24-ps4-exclusives-announced-14-studios-working-on-them

Finally, the commercial notes that over 180 games are currently in development for PlayStation 4, “more than any other next-gen console.

We last heard from Sony about its exclusives back in June. It was then that the company stated that its first party studios had 30 games in development, 20 of them due out within a year of PlayStation 4’s launch, and 12 of them hailing from new franchises. That was a follow-up to Sony's claim in February of 2013 that each of its studios were already working on PlayStation 4.

At Gamescom, Sony noted that 180 games were in development for PS4, and revealed 33 of them that would be available before the end of 2013].

 

[CaptNink]

As a long time MS fanboy, this whole resolution nonsense has me pissed! Pissed at Microsoft for letting this happen! F*** the cloud! F*** ESRAM! F*** it all!

Just saw the screens of The Order. Screw it - I'm getting a PS4.

 

[Gaz_RB]

Yep, they list killer instinct and project spark. But exclude Sonys.

I've send just as many people leave out those and put in games like Resogun and Octodad for Sony.

 

[Hindle]

All these CBOAT posts about hardware are of no interest to me. If you're reading this dude, bring the software leaks next time.

I want to know what MS are up to.

 

[Muppet of a Man]

Whatever about the comparison to PS2 for relative bandwidth, the benefits are still there to allow upwards of relatively large data structures with high access patterns to be available on demand near to the chip instead of waiting on going to main memory and dealing with whatever extra considerations there are for contention. MS clearly designed this with the intention of mitigating this potential issue with its inclusion of additional prefetching options and added logic (in their custom hardware scheduler which has not been discussed in detail yet, likely because of currently non-optimal software defining its behavior) and extra data move units to help that happen more seamlessly and with less burden placed upon the GPU itself. Looking just at the local memory isn't enough when they put all of these pieces in there to facilitate some sort of ideal operation based on future expectations of its use through the lifetime of the hardware. I am not stating that it will be the secret sauce that puts it over its competition, I am stating that the clear philosophy of the system is to offload as much traditional, general tasks and its burden off what it very weak tablet/laptop class hardware, specwise, so that they're getting more useful output for the duration of its active development. They put a lot of fixed function hardware in there to help that happen.

You bring up some very good points, but I feel that what they did ultimately was try to retrofit an efficient design around a large pool of lower bandwidth ram. It's almost like they were designing the system in a near-sighted fashion, tweaking each element of the system in isolation from the other elements. They didn't back up for a second and look at alternative high-level system architectures that would have made better use of their transistor budget and could have circumvented bottlenecks altogether instead of trying to mitigate them with a complex design.

 

[Crawl]

All these CBOAT posts about hardware are of no interest to me. If you're reading this dude, bring the software leaks next time.

I want to know what MS are up to.

Its funny because this "hardware leak" directly effects software output =).

 

[IN&OUT]

I still don't get the notion that X1 launch is blowing PS4's at all. it might edge it a little for very short period.

Just look at this diagram:




EDIT: CREDIT IS NOT MINE FOR CREATING THIS DIAGRAM. I just copied the image from the link provided by

http://imgur.com/fjqiYLi

 

[BigDug13]

I still don't get the notion that X1 launch is blowing PS4's at all. it might edge it a little for very short period.

Just look at this diagram:

Wow, that's a fantastic way to present what's on what platforms and when. Excellent.

 

[StudioTan]

Sorry but as a European who couldn't not use the TV features anyway and who owns a great tablet device for apps I really did not consider that. My opinion is solely based on the perspective of a hardcore gamer and those consoles are 99% gaming machines to me. Everything else I got a better alternative anyway. But if that's your reason to buy a x1 yeah I get it.

Implying anyone that buys an XB1 isn't a hardcore gamer. The truth is if you're a hardcore gamer you buy all the consoles and have a gaming PC. The XB1 may be underpowered compared to the PS4 but it's the only place to play Forza, DR3 and Ryse.

 

[jaypah]

It seems rather contradictory to be set on buying one system for the gen, and to do so based on launch games. Not least of which because these systems will ultimately share the vast majority of their titles.

I'm sure it will cause umbrage to say this, but I imagine if one who says "I'm getting a PS4 because Killzone." or "Xbox One because Forza." really introspectively reflects on their purchase intent the underlying reality is more "I'm getting a PS4/Xbox One because that's the system I've chosen/brand I prefer and Killzone/Forza happens to be on it." for a lot of people.

I guess but then you basically reduce anyone buying an Xbox into a person buying it just because it says Xbox. It's not stronger than the PS4 and it costs more than the PS4. So if it's not for the games then why buy it?

 

[MightyHedgehog]

You bring up some very good points, but I feel that what they did ultimately was try to retrofit an efficient design around a large pool of lower bandwidth ram. It's almost like they were designing the system in a near-sighted fashion, tweaking each element of the system in isolation from the other elements. They didn't back up for a second and look at alternative high-level system architectures that would have made better use of their transistor budget and could have circumvented bottlenecks altogether instead of trying to mitigate them with a complex design.

It's very possible that timing forced their hands into a something less than ideal, but over time, every console regardless of fixed quirks and hurdles in its hardware, finds ways to overcome or mask them with succeeding software waves. There's not a single example of this not happening on consoles that live, at least, a couple of years.

 

[Gaz_RB]

I still don't get the notion that X1 launch is blowing PS4's at all. it might edge it a little for very short period.

Just look at this diagram:

Great diagram. I think it just depends on your preferences which launch is better. There's no clear winner

 

[Captain Tuttle]

How similar structurally is the 360's esram setup with the One's (rumored)? If they are similar wouldn't scaling up be relatively painless for developers since they have experience working with esram on the 360? Honest question, I have no idea.