Holy Order Sol
Member
There shouldn't even be a need to provide any additional explanation for this because that would be accepting the premise that there is something wrong with enjoying something partly due to nostalgia, which is already dumb.
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Super Mario 3D World | Review Thread
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There shouldn't even be a need to provide any additional explanation for this because that would be accepting the premise that there is something wrong with enjoying something partly due to nostalgia, which is already dumb.
Explain Sonic review scores then?
It is what it is
I like both Zelda and Mario and actually have this game pre ordered. I would never deny that a lot of my enjoyment comes from the nostalgia though. There is a reason Nintendo recycle a lot of music
Sonic games are terrible and the fact they even exist in 2013 shows games can survive off of nostalgia alone
I like both Zelda and Mario and actually have this game pre ordered. I would never deny that a lot of my enjoyment comes from the nostalgia though. There is a reason Nintendo recycle a lot of music
Sonic games are terrible and the fact they even exist in 2013 shows games can survive off of nostalgia alone
Nailed it.
The game series typically has a very high quality reputation, with only a few minor missteps (arguably Sunshine and NSMB2, which are still very good games anyway).
Unlike other major series over the years (eg Halo, Sonic, FF) which have some very inconsistent entries, Mario remains at a higher standard and apparently that is just because "nostalgia" according to some.
I agree. Nostalgia is clouding their judgement. It can't be easy for a game to get great scores when it's always going to be compared to SMB3, SMW and SM64.
That doesn't actually answer the question. If nostalgia artificially inflates scores on games like Mario, how could shitty Sonic games get bad scores? Sales I understand (brand familiarity to casuals), but you're talking reviews here.
I agree they are fun. I think for a lot of people it comes down to franchise fatigue. I personally don't mind them because Nintendo only does one per platform.
TheSpaceBetween
Member
And with Tropical Freeze. Maybe after the same thing inevitably happens with that people will finally learn. Probably not.
Most games journalists are in their 30s and probably don't have any nostalgia for Sonic
Level design; breadth and scope of gameplay concepts. NSMBWii is where the NSMB games really hit it off. It combined the best elements of the past 2D Mario games along with new ideas and paired them with the best level design the series had ever seen. NSMBU took what NSMBWii did and made it more complex in a good way, adding more ideas and improving the level design even further. NSMBU also improved the challenge curve, making more of the levels challenging and fun.
I think people misunderstand Nintendo's relationship with nostalgia. They do use their familiar IPs to sell games, but it is because those IPs have a history of high quality, high content games under their belt that they continue to sell. People don't buy Mario games just because they have Mario in them. Mario represents a brand that people can expect great things from. Nostalgia, a longing for the past, actually hurts Nintendo a lot. People get stuck in the past (or a version of the past that never really existed) and can't judge new games fairly.
Outtrigger888
Member
A great game is a great game. The nostalgia is a bonus.
Yeah the fatigue only really came because Nintendo went to the well quickly into the lives of it's two newest pieces of hardware. So it feels like there are too many of them because 2 and wii U came out like a month or so apart.
Which makes the whole paranoia about this being the future of Mario silly. We probably won't see another Mario game in this style until the next handheld and I am willing to bet Nintendo would go with a 2d game for that instead. If the Wii U gets another 3d Mario game it will be different, and if the Wii U dies, I can almost guarantee it will be a 64 style game if only out of necessity.
You do realize Nostalgia makes new things seem worse than predecessors, not better, right? In that case then the newer Zeldas and Marios are at an inherit disadvantage from the get go if we were to factor in Nostalgia.
Here's a hint: They are not. If the games are being re-made, then yes I would agree with you, but so much of the criticism towards these franchises have to do with their past, and that's all fine. But please, let's stop with the whole Nostalgia debate, it really gets us nowhere.
Green Mamba
Member
My issues with NSMB are almost entirely aesthetic, I was merely using it as a point of reference to Nintendo taking something that works and running it into the ground.
But I'll bite--I've spoken with you before on the issue, but the music reuse in NSMB is absolutely unacceptable and whatever shit Nintendo has gotten for it it is not enough.
Visually, I have other problems, outside of finding it sterile and ugly--the fidelity went up, but the art has hardly changed at all, making the games feel way more samey than they should and it does the games a huge disservice. They need an art shake up. The previous 2D Marios had their evolving graphical capabilities to this end, but graphics are at a level in all four NSMB that that really doesn't cut it anymore--I mean, you can't really change what Mario looks like in sprite form anymore, for instance. If they are unwilling to change anything fundamental about the art, then maybe they should try new level themes for a change; there's a reason the very rarely utilized Starry Night influenced level theme from NSMBU was so loved--it was something new and unique.
The underlying level designs and what have you in these games are good--the game makers are doing themselves a huge disservice by cheaping on the rest of it.
Like I said, we'll see. I feel, from the way they've spoken of their desired direction for 3D Mario in the past, that they've been searching for a formula, and I think they believe they've found it. We'll see where the series goes from here. Let's just leave it at that, okay? I feel I've said all I can on the subject and I'm running in circles.
Why would that be? When those journalists were kids, Sonic was at the height of his popularity. But somehow I'm thinking you're the type of poster who refuses to be wrong, so I'll not derail.
Can't wait till Friday (or Thurs at midnight!) to DL this bad boy! I can probably get some quick gaming in before bed due to the file size too since downloading shouldn't take forever (unless N's servers get pounded).
theprodigy
Member
Spieler Eins, stop using your alt
The NSMB games are fun (even if I'm tepid on the slow starting/stopping speed when running), and they can be a riot with friends. But they do feel almost cynically cheap in their production values. It's like Nintendo thought we wouldn't notice if they recycled a good chunk of the music, or we wouldn't notice how jarring the 3D character models look against the painted 2D backdrops. The WiiU installment would've felt a lot more "special" if they put the same effort into the character models that they put into the backdrops, and if they added more than a few new enemies and world types, and if they put a serious effort into the music rather than coasting off what they had already created.
EAD Tokyo's work, meanwhile, practically sparkles by comparison. The quality and quantity of music tracks, the sheer variety of level types, the relentless level-by-level sense of "this is neat and NEW." They don't sport "New" in the title, but EAD's titles honor that title better than the familiar fare of NSMB ever did. Although perhaps the "New" moniker was never meant to be an indicator of creativity, but rather a simple note to the masses that yes, this is a Mario title like the Mario you remember but a Mario title you haven't played.
On a side note, I was pleasantly surprised by the coin collection element of NSMB2. I don't know what collecting coins accomplishes in the end, if anything, but the act of triggering their appearance and grabbing as many as you can is fun in itself. Not to mention that the level designers did an excellent job of stringing them along in places that guide you to secrets, even secrets within secrets -- something the series has always done, but never to this degree. NSMB2 is the most underrated NSMB title, I'd say.
EAD Tokyo's work, meanwhile, practically sparkles by comparison. The quality and quantity of music tracks, the sheer variety of level types, the relentless level-by-level sense of "this is neat and NEW." They don't sport "New" in the title, but EAD's titles honor that title better than the familiar fare of NSMB ever did. Although perhaps the "New" moniker was never meant to be an indicator of creativity, but rather a simple note to the masses that yes, this is a Mario title like the Mario you remember but a Mario title you haven't played.
On a side note, I was pleasantly surprised by the coin collection element of NSMB2. I don't know what collecting coins accomplishes in the end, if anything, but the act of triggering their appearance and grabbing as many as you can is fun in itself. Not to mention that the level designers did an excellent job of stringing them along in places that guide you to secrets, even secrets within secrets -- something the series has always done, but never to this degree. NSMB2 is the most underrated NSMB title, I'd say.
I agree with this
Nostalgia is powerful enough to turn a great game into an amazing untouchable game though imo
I don't understand this logic. Nothing in this industry is a sacred cow. You can probably count the number of series from the 80s or even the 90s that are as relevant now as they were when they came out on one (MAYBE two) hand outside of Nintendo. This industry is quick to leave things behind. Even Halo isn't as relevant to the shooter landscape as it was 5 years ago. To deny the quality of the extremely high quality of some of these Nintendo games is disingenuous, especially when you consider the myriad of copycat games that aren't nearly as good.
Still waiting for Bubsy's comeback.
I don't hate them, but they're undeniably cookie cutter as hell, and individually do far less to push the series forward than the games they imitate did. Still fun, but not especially memorable.
They're very nearly out of mechanics to nick from SMB3 and SMW now though, so the next 2D Mario has no choice but to come up with a fair amount of its own ideas. Not reusing the exact same music three games in a row wouldn't hurt either.
Freezie KO
Banned
Mario wears the cat suit in his memory.
I wouldn't say this applies to Mario, though. They get good scores because the games are still top-notch platformers.
If Nintendo ever made a flat-out terrible Mario game, I would expect the Internet to be merciless with it.
The referee is still the villain? I'm never watching sports live again.
Elfforkusu
Member
Totally disagree. Nostalgia is powerful enough to turn Twilight Princess into a "disappointing" game, even though it is objectively a better game than Ocarina of Time. Nostalgia is powerful enough to make Mario 64 into the GOAT, even though while it was completely revolutionary when it came out it has been surpassed by modern games (I would say Galaxy 1/2 are the easy exhibits). Nostalgia is powerful enough that I'm expected to believe that Super Mario 3 is a better game than Super Mario 3D Land.
*drops mic*
You only like this idea because you first realized it a long time ago.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Sunshine is legitimately bad and it has a 92 metacritic
But you brought up NSMB in regards to fears that Nintendo will limit themselves to only 1 kind of gameplay style for 3D Mario going forward. It's not a good example because 2D Mario has never seen the kind of variety in gameplay types that 3D Mario has.
I agree that prior to NSMBU the NSMB games were pretty ugly, but I think they hit a level of visuals that are, at least, adequate. As I've argued before, the tropes they use don't matter much because each level has its own identity regardless of the trope. You don't play a level in NSMBU and just go "Sigh, another standard desert level" because they introduce new ideas constantly.
I wouldn't mind new tropes, I'm just saying that they are fairly inconsequential. If Nintendo wants conveyor belts they put in conveyor belts. They don't need to make a factory world.
I don't hate NSMB's music, but yeah, it's the worst by Mario standards.
Doesn't that mean it's a good game?
I love this series to pieces. I always have since I was a kid back in the olden days.
That being said, I would totally welcome a Super Mario Bros. 4 (that would be the actual name of the game. Straight and to the point) with a completely different remodeling of everything. Characters especially. Im not saying make it look photorealistic or anything, but change up the art style. SMB3 couldve totally retained the early design from SMB and SMB2 (Japan) and carry it over, but nope. They took what they had and evolved it to a whole new plateau.
Im super super hyped for 3D World. Probably since I was a kid and hyped for the original Mario World. It's really been that long. However, Im not afraid of change and would gladly welcome it. If anything, the Mario games are the one series that truly historically really never disappoints on any sort of fundamental level so there would never be any reason for me to personally get all worrisome if some change like that occurred.
Unless of course everything WAS going to look photorealistic and they were just gonna use motion caps of Hoskins and Leguizamo.
That being said, I would totally welcome a Super Mario Bros. 4 (that would be the actual name of the game. Straight and to the point) with a completely different remodeling of everything. Characters especially. Im not saying make it look photorealistic or anything, but change up the art style. SMB3 couldve totally retained the early design from SMB and SMB2 (Japan) and carry it over, but nope. They took what they had and evolved it to a whole new plateau.
Im super super hyped for 3D World. Probably since I was a kid and hyped for the original Mario World. It's really been that long. However, Im not afraid of change and would gladly welcome it. If anything, the Mario games are the one series that truly historically really never disappoints on any sort of fundamental level so there would never be any reason for me to personally get all worrisome if some change like that occurred.
Unless of course everything WAS going to look photorealistic and they were just gonna use motion caps of Hoskins and Leguizamo.
It's not "legitimately bad." It definitely seemed like it could have used 9 more months in the oven for sure, but the core is quite good. If they were to remake the game on Wii U and fix the camera + take out the blue coin system completely most of the problems would be solved.
Or maybe it's actually legitimately good and you're just crazy.
Hey, I'll stand by that this game was easier to put out than Galaxy 3 or whatever you'd imagine would come after.
It's just that talent can compensate.
Nightstick11
Banned
I don't even know how it got a 92. That is just proof that western gaming journalists wouldn't know a good game if it ate their left arms off.
Mario Sunshine, by Nintendo standards, was a steaming pile of yak dung. The collect red/blue coins mechanic should never have existed.
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
Very fun game, deserves it.
Jaded Alyx
Member
bryanee
Member
Dat hyperbole.
at least it hasn't formed a sizable fanbase of people who clamor for the days of super mario sunshine like the wind waker does.
Huh? Windwaker was magical.Incomplete, but magical none the less.
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
Ive been playing NSMBU with my wii U bundle, and no
Legitimately bad, really? Sunshine is my favorite 3D Mario game. The water pack is genuinely fun to use and the levels feel like giant 3D playgrounds, I've been extremely disappointed that we've yet to get another 3D Mario with that level of openness.
Yeah, I agree that the shadow of Mario 64 keeps people from seeing how good these new games are.
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