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[JackAubrey]

Forza 5 hasn't increased grinding though.

1, The most expensive cars are now four million credits less than they were in Forza 4.
2, Earnings per race and earnings lower down in the field are much higher than previous games.
3, Earnings boosts for playing on higher difficulties are even more generous than last time.

4, If you think racing and driving cars in this kind of game is a grind, you shouldn't be playing this kind of game. The reward is the driving experience, not some flashy after-race cutscenes, unlocked items and the like.


It does have a shameful DLC model though. But grinding? Nah.

 

[Adam Blue]

I wish this was reflected in the 'glowing' reviews. It's good that some are mentioning this, but for me, this becomes a no-buy. The game is now about the grinding. Sessler hit on this but didn't exactly take it all the way, saying how the leveling and unlocking make this a game in every way - either he didn't finish it or was given extra credits to work with.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

I hate it when microtransactions are advertised in-game.

This is probably the ONLY reason SE allowed NoA/NoE to localize this; the vanilla version was not getting out of Japan.

yeah, Arkham Origins does the EXACT SAME THING.

It's bullshit, but it's also still optional. My thoughts on DLC.

If it negates a grind, make your own decision. Vote with your wallet.
If it is truly added , I'll buy it if I see value.
If it's "on disc DLC", I'll still buy it if I see value, but I am going to be more skewed against buying it.

When all else fails, just wait for the GOTY version which will be the same full price game just with all included DLC. And for most GOTYs, when they release it usually creates a healthy uptick for a little bit in multiplayer. As opposed to buying the title 3 years later for dirt cheap, getting all of the DLC but having a totally dead multiplayer scene.



Well now this is a pretty idiotic stance to take.

Ballad of Gay Tony
Undead Nightmare
LA Noire DLC scenarios
music game downloads
Elder Scrolls expansions
Borderlands expansions
New Super Luigi U

I mean there is TONS of DLC out there that is truly amazing. To lump any of that stuff in with F2P grind removals and stuff is just stupid.

Here's the deal: those are large, involved additions. Large new areas, new gameplay changes, balance fixes, massive new ammounts of things to do, collect, and earn. This is far more than scant reskins and one song for $3 each.

$40 and insanely huge:

$112 and miniscule in comparison:

The shit in the OP is warping game design to disincintivize gameplay and the act of earning in-game. By cranking up the grind (which, mind you was "wrong" in Gen 7), they reinforce the avoiding effort learned over the last 8 years while giving an out for cold hard cash. Train 'em, farm 'em.

I'll just summarize my rant from the review thread:

I absolutely do no want to strip away the right for someone to take advantage of the time saving options if it improves their experience. I guess in the end it all comes down to how much you trust a company to be honest in balancing the game with customer experience in mind vs the amount of money that is able to be made.

Just like gamers who expect publishers to bend to their whims in advantageous situations, any gamers who expect publishers to not take advantage of them when they have the open hand are delusional and naive.

 

[Solal]

I ll buy GT6 second hand... F2P model in a game that I payed? Fuck no !

 

[BruiserBear]

I first knew this shit was getting out of hand with Forza Horizon last year. They wanted you to pay real money to fast travel around the fucking map. My mind was blown.

It's a slap in the face of the customer when you pay $60 for a game, and then have them nickel and diming you at every turn. Fuck right off with that nonsense.

 

[Seanspeed]

Do you realize that you could live in the bubble without seeing such obvious problem? There are reasons why common people could point out basic logical fallacies in fiction that the fans and writers didn't even realized from the get go. Being not playing the game doesn't invalidate my argument that there is absolutely nothing that could stop such business model could tamper the core design. I questioned it whether or not there are any insurance that developer keep their game at it is without the transaction model in mind, which I think absolutely nothing to make sure of that.

I've actually played Forza. I know how much of an issue it is. I'm guessing you and pretty much everybody else here complaining about it hasn't. So please don't speak to me about living in a bubble. I'm speaking from actual experience here.

I certainly realize how microtransactions can be an issue. But it simply hasn't been the case with Forza. Its a seriously, seriously bad example if one wants to rant about this topic because its one of the better examples of how its been done right so far.

 

[unbias]

I don't get what you're saying. Anybody who played FM4 normally usually had plenty of money. Most cars were perfectly attainable. It was only the expensive, rare cars that would possibly require any grinding.

Relative. If they have transactions to speed this process up, clearly they did enough research as to how much to offer and how far/quick people hit a set point in the game. "Perfectly attainable" is relative to the average consumer experience. Even if it has a minimal impact on the game, it has physiological impacts on the player, and if it does even remotely well(the game or the micro-transactions) you can be sure it will encourage this practice even more.

 

[wapplew]

To be fair, T10 is huge studio with 300 employee, much bigger than PD.

They model hell out of those car, tracks and stuff, all take lots more time and man power than previous game, yet people expect to get more by paying same.
Is not like they recycle those assets right?
I heard developer said they throw away all the old stuff and build everything from ground up
They can't raise the game price, have to find some way to make money to pay their employee.

Maybe 200 premium cars and 14 laser scan tracks are the right amount of content for 60.

 

[Shengar]

awww, shit.

Read my reply to that post. You could easily choose Normal difficulty and plow through the game with only playing the main chapter without any unit dying. But still even though it is money grab attempt at the get go since it isn't available from the star, it just further my argument that there isn't anything that could stop developers to tamper with the core design because of the inclusion of microtransaction.

 

[snap0212]

I've always been against most kinds of DLC and I've pretty much accepted that this is how it's going to be going forward.

I think DLC was (at some point) supposed to be a way to give the player additional fun or product for a fee. That seemed to be the spirit behind the Borderlands DLC, for example. What has happened over the years is that publishers and game makers changed their plans and decided that they'd make more money by implementing annoyances and hurdles into their main game that could be overcome by spending money. This has the upside for the developer that there's no new content that has to be created and that it can be available right from the start.

The main game suffers from this and the games press is often times not willing to see it as an actual gameplay problem. They should point out that it's pretty useless to list X number of cars if getting them (without spending additional money) is nearly impossible. They should treat these things not as part of the game but as annoyances and hurdles only implemented to get some people to spend money. They should not repeat the nonsense lines of „You can unlock it by playing“. It's pretty much the best model for the publisher: They can claim X amount of hours of gameplay (because that's how long it'll take to unlock these things), they can claim a huge amount of potentially available content and they can let everyone know how they're being nice because they're not locking the content behind a paywall.

 

[Thomas_Daly]

Somehow, someway, they really "got" what DLC is supposed to be about and even though they are new to that game, they are one of the top makers of DLC.

and you know when your buying DLC you know it was made after the game = trustworthy

 

[Interrobang]

Dead Space 3 devs flat out said they were told to change the entire game to make microtransactions worthwhile. People saying just ignore this or you can still play the game normally don't understand that the devs probably had a vision for a game, EA stepped in and forced microtransactions, and the devs changed their initial vision to cater to them.

 

[Solal]

Basically what it means is:
Turn10/PD decides how long it will take to grind.
They decide what cars you will need to progress in the game (most races have restrictions: FW, RW, etc...)
They decide huw much you get after every event.
They decide how much cars cost in the game.
And now they decide how much ingame credits will cost in real money.
Basically: they control every inch of your experience : they make you captive of their economic model.
No need to be a Nobel Prize to see where this is taking us.

 

[Seanspeed]

Forza 5 hasn't increased grinding though.

1, The most expensive cars are now four million credits less than they were in Forza 4.
2, Earnings per race and earnings lower down in the field are much higher than previous games.
3, Earnings boosts for playing on higher difficulties are even more generous than last time.

4, If you think racing and driving cars in this kind of game is a grind, you shouldn't be playing this kind of game. The reward is the driving experience, not some flashy after-race cutscenes, unlocked items and the like.


It does have a shameful DLC model though. But grinding? Nah.

Nobody is going to listen to you, man. People have made up their minds, despite knowing nothing about Forza.

 

[danmaku]

4, If you think racing and driving cars in this kind of game is a grind, you shouldn't be playing this kind of game. The reward is the driving experience, not some flashy after-race cutscenes, unlocked items and the like.

If this was true, there wouldn't be any unlockable in the game. Everything would be available since the beginning, because the reward is driving, not unlocking stuff. But obviously, the unlocks mean something for the players, and they're are a prize because simply racing isn't enough for a part of the audience. Just like some people want unlockable characters in fighting games and others hate them (I'm in the hate camp).

Of course, the next question would be: is there any reason to put grinding in a game, beside wasting your time? By grinding I mean performing repetitive activities that don't enhance your skill at all (grinding != training).

 

[IISANDERII]

GT5, Forza 4 and Horizon were grindy enough as they were. Fuck this shit, I'll be monitoring the GT6 reviews very, very closely.
I derive hope from the fact that GT5's DLC was very reasonably priced so it seems like they are far more wary of fleecing their fanbase.

 

[LuchaShaq]

Nobody is going to listen to you, man. People have made up their minds, despite knowing nothing about Forza.

Guess what, if they don't want people to assume the worst they shouldn't charge 60$, or shouldn't have microtransactions.

Cry me a fucking river.

 

[ElectricBanquet]

This business model isn't going away unless consumers start refusing to buy games that do this... so it isn't going away.

 

[Gucci Messiah]

I've actually played Forza. I know how much of an issue it is. I'm guessing you and pretty much everybody else here complaining about it hasn't. So please don't speak to me about living in a bubble. I'm speaking from actual experience here.

I certainly realize how microtransactions can be an issue. But it simply hasn't been the case with Forza. Its a seriously, seriously bad example if one wants to rant about this topic because its one of the better examples of how its been done right so far.

I love how you ignored his point to basically post "I've played it, therefore your opinion is invalid peasant"

 

[Seanspeed]

Relative. If they have transactions to speed this process up, clearly they did enough research as to how much to offer and how far/quick people hit a set point in the game. "Perfectly attainable" is relative to the average consumer experience. Even if it has a minimal impact on the game, it has physiological impacts on the player, and if it does even remotely well(the game or the micro-transactions) you can be sure it will encourage this practice even more.

No man. Seriously, if you've played Forza games in the past, you'd know that just playing through normally will grant you plenty of money to buy plenty of cars.

Too many people here are speaking of this without really knowing what they're talking about.

I love how you ignored his point to basically post "I've played it, therefore your opinion is invalid peasant"

I did not ignore his point, though.

 

[MoGamesXNA]

.

 

[SneakyStephan]

This has been where microtransactions have been leading to since the very start
'as long as it's optional' was always the rationalisation

Those optional ones have only been to ease people into getting used to them, then the game design /pacing gets affected to gaud you into buying them ,and you're left with arbitrary inconveniences/annoyances behind a paywall

All this in a virtual world that is supposed to be an escape from the real world, where anything goes and anything you can dream of is just some lines of code away

Let it sink in

 

[unbias]

No man. Seriously, if you've played Forza games in the past, you'd know that just playing through normally will grant you plenty of money to buy plenty of cars.

Too many people here are speaking of this without really knowing what they're talking about.

So you are actually saying nobody will buy the micro transactions? You seem to be missing my overall point.

 

[NathanMcMahon]

I also blame gamers who have bought into this shite. You fuelled this. It's on you.
I have never bought a single bit of DLC in my life and I never will.

yes you will.

 

[JackAubrey]

Nobody is going to listen to you, man. People have made up their minds, despite knowing nothing about Forza.

I know. But I still try to bring some balance.

 

[Gucci Messiah]

So you are actually saying nobody will buy the micro transactions? You seem to be missing my overall point.

But you've never played it man! Therefore I'm going to ignore your legitimate counter arguments and be dismissive.

 

[Snkfanatic]

Wow....well looks like I really need to read some GT6 reviews before opening my copy. I will not deal with this BS in a full priced game. I have no real issue with it as long as they don't make it harder to grind. It was already a bit much in GT5.

 

[SomethingInTheSea]

Wow, that sounds pretty gross, yet alot of reviewers don't seem to care about this... which seems strange to me as i imagine that there are plenty of consumers who would care about this.

for the important reviewers I'd bet the game probably comes with a stack of credits so this isn't a problem.

 

[Aeneas]

I hate it when microtransactions are advertised in-game.

What the hell. I am looking forward to Bravely Default so much, please tell me there wont be constant reminders of micro transactions during battles... This is just a trailer right?

 

[le.phat]

GAF is overreacting.

As GAF often does.

Huh? Are you telling me you are okay with a pay-2-win model in a full retail game ?
I know the industry is trying to nickle 'n dime us at every turn, but at least last gen it was disguised as DLC that you might or might not wanted. That was a fair choice.

Having to choose between grinding and buying stuff that's already in the game, that fucking sucks.

 

[michaelx]

Huh? Are you telling me you are okay with a pay-2-win model in a full retail game ?
I know the industry is trying to nickle 'n dime us at every turn, but at least last gen it was disguised as DLC that you might or might not wanted. That was a fair choice.

Having to choose between grinding and buying stuff that's already in the game, that fucking sucks.

Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to support it or just ignore it, minding "their own business".

 

[Afrodium]

Sounds like a F2P model on a $60 game. What bullshit.

 

[SmokyDave]

No man. Seriously, if you've played Forza games in the past, you'd know that just playing through normally will grant you plenty of money to buy plenty of cars.

Too many people here are speaking of this without really knowing what they're talking about.

I disagree. Forza 1 and 2 that was definitely the case. From 3 onwards the game has become 'grindier' with each passing installment. I argued with Che (the old Turn 10 community guy) on here years ago about this when he described owning all the cars as 'prohibitively expensive' like it was a good thing.

I have played every Forza except for Horizon and I think you're kidding yourself if you don't think the DLC and grinding has got worse with time.

 

[Seanspeed]

Not at all. I appreciate the consumer focused opinions represented by a vocal portion of the GAF crew. My own personal preferences usually side with theirs and I'll vote with my wallet accordingly.

I'm looking forward to buying the full version next year with the DLC included.

These 'opinions' are based off of ignorance, though. People with no experience of Forza and a complete overexaggeration of how the microtransactions affect the game.

If you want to side with that, go ahead. I'm here trying to tell people the truth, that's all.

So you are actually saying nobody will buy the micro transactions?

Did not say that at all. I think its hilarious for you to say that and then accuse me of not getting your point.

 

[Polioliolio]

The only good kind of DLC is FREE DLC.

Additional content as expansion packs is acceptable. See 'Dark Souls Artorias content'

As for the New Luigi Bros U, at least it's on a disc and is an entire game's worth of content..
I'm getting it 'free' in the NSMBU WiiU Bundle, so I'll take it.


I'm really disappointed in you guys for leading DLC to the position it's at today on store fronts. Stop buying this stupid stuff.

Now, I will admit to buying DLC when it's 75% off or more during steam sales.. I mean, When I'm only paying 5 dollars for a game like Sonic and Allstars Racing Transformed, I don't mind dropping 74 cents for an extra course and character. I would certainly never touch it at full price. One other reason I'm more inclined to support this game, is that it kicks ass, and as recent as a couple days ago, they've just added yet another free character/vehicle to the game.. Very impressed with this developer. Because there's just the one bit of DLC, I feel the developer was required to have DLC of some kind in their contract, though it's still upsetting.

 

[Broder Salsa]

Microtransactions like this in games really turns me off them, even if they are nothing too important and I could perfectly finish the game without buying shit, it still rubs me in the wrong way.

 

[flyinpiranha]

Relative. If they have transactions to speed this process up, clearly they did enough research as to how much to offer and how far/quick people hit a set point in the game. "Perfectly attainable" is relative to the average consumer experience. Even if it has a minimal impact on the game, it has physiological impacts on the player, and if it does even remotely well(the game or the micro-transactions) you can be sure it will encourage this practice even more.

I don't see the problem with "this practice". I played all the Forza's including Horizon and I never had really an issue with credits. It was more of what type of car I wanted.

As mentioned above if you are looking for a 5 hour game that grants you 20 supercars, this isn't it. I grinded for HOURS in GT5 to get that Ferrari Open Wheel car (only to find out I couldn't use it in 99% of the races, DAMMIT!) but that's what these sim games are. Grinding. You race and race and race. I completely understand some people wanting to purchase this stuff, not everybody has the patience to play these games like the typical sim fan.

The good part is that it introduces new people to the genre, the bad part is that it will most likely be pushed to the front of the screen. I hate logging in to almost any game these days and it's "Checking for DLC" or "Action Super Pack Available!" but it is what it is.

We're only paying $10 more for each game than we did 30 years ago. I understand the "cash grabs" and it's pretty simple to ignore them.

I have not played Forza 5 (and most likely never will until XB1 is cheaper and a wheel option is made available - a good wheel option) but if it's anything like Forza 3 and 4 with the token purchases, they are pretty avoidable.

That said, I don't agree with ALL DLC practices, I do agree with some. With Forza I have never had an issue with it and I bought the Season Pass for 4. My biggest issue is that once you bought the Pass, you still had to buy the car with credits which sucked.

 

[unbias]

Did not say that at all. I think its hilarious for you to say that and then accuse me of not getting your point.

So you think microtransactions are fine then, as long as you know enough people that can ignore them? You dont see any bad effects this has on games and the industry? Supporting games that do this you are encouraging a practice that distorts game design. I dont have problems saying no to these kind of microtransactions. Just because you can say it is no big deal if you play the game normal and get everything, that in no way means that microtransaction practices in full priced games like this, is a bad practice. Support such a practice gaurentee's the continued use of such practices, and if you think it will just be limited to only effecting those who dont want to play the game "normally", I would say that is a very naive way to look at how these practices work.

 

[Seanspeed]

Huh? Are you telling me you are okay with a pay-2-win model in a full retail game ?
I know the industry is trying to nickle 'n dime us at every turn, but at least last gen it was disguised as DLC that you might or might not wanted. That was a fair choice.

Having to choose between grinding and buying stuff that's already in the game, that fucking sucks.

Its not pay-to-win. You don't know what you're talking about. You really don't. I'm not trying to be high and mighty here. I'm just having to point that out.

I disagree. Forza 1 and 2 that was definitely the case. From 3 onwards the game has become 'grindier' with each passing installment. I argued with Che (the old Turn 10 community guy) on here years ago about this when he described owning all the cars as 'prohibitively expensive' like it was a good thing.

I have played every Forza except for Horizon and I think you're kidding yourself if you don't think the DLC and grinding has got worse with time.

Forza 3 did make the switch to a more 'realistic valuing' of cars. Which meant that cars like a Ferrari 250GTO were very expensive. And granted, in Forza 3, it did seem prohibitively expensive. But most cars weren't at all. Its not like the average prices of cars went up at all. If they had, I would agree with you, but they didn't. One could still afford most cars simply by playing normally. There was no need to 'grind' unless you really needed to have a very specific, rare car.

But with FM4, they made a lot of changes to make people earn more money. They kept the 'realistic valuing' of cars, but allowed people to make a lot of money very easily. Which I honestly felt made it almost too easy to buy pretty much whatever you wanted, apart from the small handful of super rare cars.

 

[Seanspeed]

So you think microtransactions are fine then, as long as you know enough people that can ignore them? You dont see any bad effects this has on games and the industry? Supporting games that do this you are encouraging a practice that distorts game design. I dont have problems saying no to these kind of microtransactions. Just because you can say it is no big deal if you play the game normal and get everything, that in no way means that microtransaction practices in full priced games like this, is a bad practice. Support such a practice gaurentee's the continued use of such practices, and if you think it will just be limited to only effecting those who dont want to play the game "normally", I would say that is a very naive way to look at how these practices work.

I don't believe microtransactions are inherently evil, no.

 

[MoGamesXNA]

.

 

[unbias]

I don't believe microtransactions are inherently evil, no.

They are not inherently evil, they are inherently anti-consumer. Just because people fall for it, doesn't mean it is a healthy thing that gets supported. If you cant see why people are against this, just on principle alone, I dunno what else to tell you, as to why this isnt just an "over reaction".

 

[michaelx]

GTA V should be added to the list aswell.

 

[whitehawk]

This is the benefit of Nintendo not embracing DLC.

Most recently I encountered a problem with PlayStation all stars. Two of the best characters are locked behind $10! I paid $60 for the game, and they expect me to pay 1/6th of that for only two characters? Now other people who coughed up $10 have an advantage in the game.

I long for the days where characters were unlockable, and were fun to do so. I might have to get a Wii U soon. I can't see Nintendo ever putting DLC characters in SSB.

 

[unbias]

GTA V should be added to the list aswell.

Ya, another game I didnt pick up because of micro transactions(not that it did any good).

 

[spacemonkeynation]

This is a gross practice. If you want to use a free-to-play model then the base game needs to be free! These developers want to have their cake and eat it too. I just hope customers don't fall for this shit.

 

[SmokyDave]

Forza 3 did make the switch to a more 'realistic valuing' of cars. Which meant that cars like a Ferrari 250GTO were very expensive. And granted, in Forza 3, it did seem prohibitively expensive. But most cars weren't at all. Its not like the average prices of cars went up at all. If they had, I would agree with you, but they didn't. One could still afford most cars simply by playing normally. There was no need to 'grind' unless you really needed to have a very specific, rare car.

Up until this generation, I was very much a 'gotta catch 'em all' guy when it came to racers. If it was on the roster, it would end up in my garage. DLC kinda ruined that for me. I can understand that if you only want access to 60% of the cars, the credits given for racing are largely sufficient.

But with FM4, they made a lot of changes to make people earn more money. They kept the 'realistic valuing' of cars, but allowed people to make a lot of money very easily. Which I honestly felt made it almost too easy to buy pretty much whatever you wanted, apart from the small handful of super rare cars.

I didn't put much time in with FM4 because I was kinda soured on the franchise by 3. Also, I cancelled my Gold membership which meant I couldn't buy custom liveries and that dampened my enthusiasm. Glad to hear they made it more generous though.

I think, for me, the series is the poster child of how things changed for the worse last gen (Buy game. Now buy DLC. Now buy Gold subscription. Now buy tokens to buy cars). I understand that much of that stuff is optional, but when you opt out of it all you can end up feeling like you're playing a shell of a game, with all the best bits withheld from you.

More power to those that enjoy the series though, it's certainly got a lot going for it.

 

[chaosblade]

Read my reply to that post. You could easily choose Normal difficulty and plow through the game with only playing the main chapter without any unit dying. But still even though it is money grab attempt at the get go since it isn't available from the star, it just further my argument that there isn't anything that could stop developers to tamper with the core design because of the inclusion of microtransaction.

More than that, the game is still balanced around not using DLC in the harder difficulties. There's a ton of content even without it (more total chapters than any previous FE game) and the game isn't grindy at all.

The grinding DLC is really only good for preparing for other DLC, so it's all kind of self contained for the people who want to spend more for more content. I think Fire Emblem did a great job of handling DLC in that regard (though I still think most of it is a poor value).

 

[spacemonkeynation]

GTA V should be added to the list aswell.

It's disgusting there as well, but at least it wasn't forced into the main campaign. GTA V offered enough to justify the full game price for me, however I do think the online component should be a true free-to-play too.

 

[Mugaaz]

Forza 5 hasn't increased grinding though.

1, The most expensive cars are now four million credits less than they were in Forza 4.
2, Earnings per race and earnings lower down in the field are much higher than previous games.
3, Earnings boosts for playing on higher difficulties are even more generous than last time.

4, If you think racing and driving cars in this kind of game is a grind, you shouldn't be playing this kind of game. The reward is the driving experience, not some flashy after-race cutscenes, unlocked items and the like.


It does have a shameful DLC model though. But grinding? Nah.

Can't I play the game for any fucking reason I choose? I didn't realize I had to get approval from others to play a game in the fashion I enjoy most.