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[conman]

The goal of a game isn't necessarily to send a message.

While "messages" aren't always explicitly intended, Blizzard made theirs painfully clear in their response. Ugly bit of sexism that perpetuates the stereotype of gaming as the exclusive domain of underdeveloped man-children. Worse, Blizzard has done this in a calculated way with total awareness of what they're doing and why they're doing it.

They're free to do what they like, of course, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't get called out on it.

 

[TaroYamada]

I'm sorry, is Blizzard this one magic company that never has to answer for anything that they may do wrong?

Oh right, video game companies get a free pass if their games are fun. Blizzard is in the spotlight. Your argument right now is that Blizzard should benefit from this and never, ever have to experience the negatives.

This post literally has nothing to do with what I said, go back and answer the question, please.

 

[Wiktor]

There are actually a lot of women that I see complain about it. But hey, go again and dismiss their existence because your argument lives and dies by whether or not they're real.

I wonder, do they also complain to any girl in real world they see wearing a revealing clothes?

 

[The_Endgamer]

I wonder, do they also complain to any girl in real world they see wearing a revealing clothes?

Have you really never heard women talking about other women? hahaha

 

[ryanmac]

I wonder, do they also complain to any girl in real world they see wearing a revealing clothes?

My evidence is pretty anecdotal but I can tell you my wife finds the recent obsession with feminism in games to be a huge annoyance. She's sick of reading words like "misogyny" and "oversexualized". Games are for fun she says. I tend to agree.

I think the part that bothers me is when writers pretend to speak for an entire gender. There is a huge portion of female gamers that have no interest in taking up this "cause", but the ones screaming the loudest right now are the people that have a bone to pick with the industry.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I wonder, do they also complain to any girl in real world they see wearing a revealing clothes?

They might, but curious - what does that have to do with the topic at hand? Do you think that the sentiment that male designers should make fewer over-sexualized characters is the same as thinking that women shouldn't be able to choose how they dress? Or that digital women have the same rights as real women?

This post literally has nothing to do with what I said, go back and answer the question, please.

Yeah, I don't plan on answering fake questions that are asked out of an earnest desire to be given a reply.

The fact is that you got exactly what you should have gotten. You just happen to not like it. Blizzard is a company that wants to do something - namely, use a style that receives criticism. If they want to do something, then they inherently want to experience it all. If they don't want to put themselves in the line of criticism, then they have no right to do what they want to do. They either have characters that anyone is well within their right to criticize or they don't have them at all. Those are literally the only two options that they can have.

 

[Wiktor]

They might, but curious - what does that have to do with the topic at hand? Do you think that the sentiment that male designers should make fewer over-sexualized characters is the same as thinking that women shouldn't be able to choose how they dress? .

I think it has everything to with topic at hand - I suspect a lot of it steems from good minded but going overboard femists-friendly people that with best intentions want to decide things for everybody else.
As long as a famale gamer has option to choose less revealing clothes for her character (which in MOBAs they almost always do) I don't see what's the problem. Unless you think somebody gave you the right to decide how everybody else's character looks like.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I think it has everything to with topic at hand - I suspect a lot of it steems from good minded but going overboard femists-friendly people that with best intentions want to decide things for everybody else.
As long as a famale gamer has option to choose less revealing clothes for her character (which in MOBAs they almost always do) I don't see what's the problem. Unless you think somebody gave you the right to decide how everybody else's character looks like.

...Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm still confused why you consider fictional women to be on the same level as real women. The arguments made are that the standard female character designs are over-sexualized and/or incidental to the overall game. It would be one thing if this was, say, an option players had (relatively anyway). It's not an option, though - it's the standard. You may be able to change it, but the character will inherently be seen as sexualized.

I still need you to wrap your head around the really shitty ideas behind your comparison. A more fitting idea would be comparing the topic at hand to men in real life forcing women to dress in a certain way. Do you think men should have the right to dress women how they want?

 

[Seeds]

It's very clear that you don't see my point, because unless I've missed something, developers get a ton of fucking flak for making shitty games. I've never said that developers should not be allowed to make whatever game they want. But they don't have the right to not be criticized for any reason. If Blizzard wants to design their women in a sexual manner, then they also want people to target them for this.

And unless that ton of fucking flak actually translates into loss of sales, nothing will change. They'll keep making whatever they want despite all the complaints because those complaining seem to be to small to actually effect sales.

 

[shanshan310]

There are few countries with as big racial diversity as US. There's UK and maybe France too. But there's generally a lot bigger diversity in nationalities in game industry than movie one. With movies the only country that makes blockbusters is USA, nobody else matters. Not so much in games. So it's just not realistic to expect similiar racial diversity in games as in movies, especially since african and middle eastern countries are far behind Europe and Asia in game development.

Uuuuh, have you ever BEEN outside the US? There are a huge number of countries that are just as diverse as the US - especially in Europe and Asia. Considering there are a wider variety of countries making games, one would assume greater diversity too. Although yes, more countries creating games certainly could help.

I think it has everything to with topic at hand - I suspect a lot of it steems from good minded but going overboard femists-friendly people that with best intentions want to decide things for everybody else.
As long as a famale gamer has option to choose less revealing clothes for her character (which in MOBAs they almost always do) I don't see what's the problem. Unless you think somebody gave you the right to decide how everybody else's character looks like.

It's not necessarily about clothes, but yes that is the crux of the matter. No one is saying characters can't be sexualised - hey, I like sexy characters too! - but it would be nice to have ones that aren't as sexualised too.

EDIT: Oh you're saying that they should have (unlockable or purchasable) alternative skins that aren't sexualised? That's... not really the same.

 

[RpgN]

My evidence is pretty anecdotal but I can tell you my wife finds the recent obsession with feminism in games to be a huge annoyance. She's sick of reading words like "misogyny" and "oversexualized". Games are for fun she says. I tend to agree.

I think the part that bothers me is when writers pretend to speak for an entire gender. There is a huge portion of female gamers that have no interest in taking up this "cause", but the ones screaming the loudest right now are the people that have a bone to pick with the industry.

Brilliant, you've framed it the best way possible. Huge portion of female gamers have no interest in taking up the cause, and the ones who do, are the loudest that have a bone to pick with the industry. Wow.

Get out with this shit. It's getting tiring hearing this from male gamers who get to decide what's best for female gamers because of their own desires and preferences.

 

[Captain Tuttle]

During an interview about Blizzard's upcoming MOBA (dota game):
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/11/22/blizzard-on-heroes-of-the-storm-female-designs-in-mobas/



I don't read much gaming press, but this was all over my twitter feed. Seems like some pretty hardball questions for a gaming interview. I kinda feel bad for the director since he obviously didn't expect what was coming, but when you're a public face you have to deal with the decisions of your company.

If you're not running for president, I guess it's anything goes!

Seriously though, when the only two female characters in Hearthstone look like the exact same hyper-sexual thing, it's kind of off-putting. They could do a lot better with regards to this issue.

I for one would like to see the gaming "press" play more hardball

 

[shanshan310]

My evidence is pretty anecdotal but I can tell you my wife finds the recent obsession with feminism in games to be a huge annoyance. She's sick of reading words like "misogyny" and "oversexualized". Games are for fun she says. I tend to agree.

I think the part that bothers me is when writers pretend to speak for an entire gender. There is a huge portion of female gamers that have no interest in taking up this "cause", but the ones screaming the loudest right now are the people that have a bone to pick with the industry.

Your wife = majority of female gamers now? Or are you saying that writers don't speak for women, but you do?

It's absolutely fine that your wife doesn't care, but it's clearly an important issue to others. Feel free to tune out, enjoy those games and not care. You know what's more annoying than hearing feminists complain? Well, hearing people complain about "feminists complaining" for one, but also the problems being discussed here. You have absolutely nothing to lose as a result of these issues being discussed. We aren't trying to take away your fun games, we're trying to make them more fun for everyone.

 

[RpgN]

And unless that ton of fucking flak actually translates into loss of sales, nothing will change. They'll keep making whatever they want despite all the complaints because those complaining seem to be to small to actually effect sales.

Of course sales won't be affected because it's a standard that has been ingrained since the very beginning. At the end of the day, male gamers are mostly being served, female gamers (that are interested in games regardless of the situation) are smaller in number and they won't be able to make a difference with sales. It's a losing battle from that perspective.

What's being proposed is that, more and more female gamers are playing games, and there is still growth for way more. We already have the gaming demographic being split with 40% for female gamers in recent surveys, but that accounts for mobile and casual gaming also. It's very possible that female gamers can also make up 40% or even 60% with all types of games, if they're being served evenly as male gamers. The proof is out there with proper games such as Pokemon, RPGs and Animal Crossing.

It's ridiculous to have the majority of this industry dedicated to only half of the population when it's clear that there is no relation to this being a gender hobby. And effects have been shown in different ways, when more female gamers voice their concerns and it's more talked about. Figures like Anita and some journalists are absolutely making a difference and helping out. I hate when some guys talk bad about male journalists as if they speak for everyone out there. But hey, it makes sense why some would talk that way.

The effects that I'm talking about has become more apparent slowly, more games are having female characters that are better written, more games give you the choice to select genders in games and it's happening with both indie and mainstream games.

So those complaints are not really small, no. And not by just female gamers mind you, I read that some male gamers would like better variety as well.

 

[ryanmac]

Your wife = majority of female gamers now? Or are you saying that writers don't speak for women, but you do?

It's absolutely fine that your wife doesn't care, but it's clearly an important issue to others. Feel free to tune out, enjoy those games and not care. You know what's more annoying than hearing feminists complain? Well, hearing people complain about "feminists complaining" for one, but also the problems being discussed here. You have absolutely nothing to lose as a result of these issues being discussed. We aren't trying to take away your fun games, we're trying to make them more fun for everyone.

I'm not here to argue because frankly I don't think the subject matter warrants it, but I will defend one accusation. I didn't use the word majority anywhere in my post and freely admitted my evidence was anecdotal in the very first sentence. I added my two cents and that is that. I will go back to putting this discussion "on ignore" as you put it.

However I might suggest that if you want to effectively debate this in a serious manner in the future try not to purposely or subconsciously misquote the person you're rebutting. It is just a poor reflection of your own ideas and isn't doing the "cause" any favours.

 

[Dabookerman]

The point was never "to get a thumbs up from feminists" and that you think it is suggests you don't really understand the argument. We aren't arguing for the sake of it, or because we're craaazzzy women. I'm arguing, at least, because I would like to sometimes be able to play characters that look like me and aren't cringeworthy boner-bait. I don't feel like I'm trying to be hostile, but it can definitely get frustrating when people don't understand.

It's a bit unfair to say I don't understand the argument. The fact is, I have seen many people calling out characters and saying how unacceptable there are etc.
I think some of the feminists are a very hostile and go about things the "Malcolm X" way so to speak. That's fine enough, but they will get a hostile reaction back, and to me that doesn't really help anyone and drowns out some of the more helpful suggestions.
I think you should be able to play as characters that you yourself can relate to, and I would like to be able to do the same. I think the answer is calling out to devs, asking for more options, more designs that can relate to a much broader audience.

Of course sales won't be affected because it's a standard that has been ingrained since the very beginning. At the end of the day, male gamers are mostly being served, female gamers (that are interested in games regardless of the situation) are smaller in number and they won't be able to make a difference with sales. It's a losing battle from that perspective.

What's being proposed is that, more and more female gamers are playing games, and there is still growth for way more. We already have the gaming demographic being split with 40% for female gamers in recent surveys, but that accounts for mobile and casual gaming also. It's very possible that female gamers can also make up 40% or even 60% with all types of games, if they're being served evenly as male gamers. The proof is out there with proper games such as Pokemon, RPGs and Animal Crossing.

It's ridiculous to have the majority of this industry dedicated to only half of the population when it's clear that there is no relation to this being a gender hobby. And effects have been shown in different ways, when more female gamers voice their concerns and it's more talked about. Figures like Anita and other journalists are absolutely making a difference and helping out. I hate when some guys talk bad about male journalists as if they speak for everyone out there. But hey, it makes sense why some would talk that way.

The effects that I'm talking about has become more apparent slowly, more games are having female characters that are better written, more games give you the choice to select genders in games and it's happening with both indie and mainstream games.

So those complaints are not really small, no. And not by just female gamers mind you, I read that some male gamers would like better variety as well.

I have to say, it's almost tempted to say that the male trainer in Pokémon X/Y got "hard done" by. I'm playing as the female as my main, and she has such a huge variety of clothing. Loads of my mates regret picking the male character. I can't remember the last time that happened!

 

[shanshan310]

I'm not here to argue because frankly I don't think the subject matter warrants it, but I will defend one accusation. I didn't use the word majority anywhere in my post and freely admitted my evidence was anecdotal in the very first sentence. I added my two cents and that is that. I will go back to putting this discussion "on ignore" as you put it.

However I might suggest that if you want to effectively debate this in a serious manner in the future try not to purposely or subconsciously misquote the person you're rebutting. It is just a poor reflection of your own ideas and isn't doing the "cause" any favours.

Seriously? You said huge portion, insinuating the majority. Admittedly slight difference but it hardly detracts from my message. When you go into a thread just to post "I don't care and neither does my wife" you're hardly in a position to tell people how to debate.

 

[Seeds]

Of course sales won't be affected because it's a standard that has been ingrained since the very beginning. At the end of the day, male gamers are mostly being served, female gamers (that are interested in games regardless of the situation) are smaller in number and they won't be able to make a difference with sales. It's a losing battle from that perspective.

What's being proposed is that, more and more female gamers are playing games, and there is still growth for way more. We already have the gaming demographic being split with 40% for female gamers in recent surveys, but that accounts for mobile and casual gaming also. It's very possible that female gamers can also make up 40% or even 60% with all types of games, if they're being served evenly as male gamers. The proof is out there with proper games such as Pokemon, RPGs and Animal Crossing.

It's ridiculous to have the majority of this industry dedicated to only half of the population when it's clear that there is no relation to this being a gender hobby. And effects have been shown in different ways, when more female gamers voice their concerns and it's more talked about. Figures like Anita and some journalists are absolutely making a difference and helping out. I hate when some guys talk bad about male journalists as if they speak for everyone out there. But hey, it makes sense why some would talk that way.

The effects that I'm talking about has become more apparent slowly, more games are having female characters that are better written, more games give you the choice to select genders in games and it's happening with both indie and mainstream games.

So those complaints are not really small, no. And not by just female gamers mind you, I read that some male gamers would like better variety as well.

Note how the games you mentined targeted a bigger audience before all this happaned? That is, developers knew that there was a female audience out there, and if they wanted said audience, they make games that went after them.

So far, I'm not seeing any changes that would have happened without these complaints. The games that targeted a bigger audience continue to do so, and those who don't, don't seem to care besides the usual pr statement. And until that changes, I'll consider these complaints small.

 

[RpgN]

I'm not here to argue because frankly I don't think the subject matter warrants it, but I will defend one accusation. I didn't use the word majority anywhere in my post and freely admitted my evidence was anecdotal in the very first sentence. I added my two cents and that is that. I will go back to putting this discussion "on ignore" as you put it.

However I might suggest that if you want to effectively debate this in a serious manner in the future try not to purposely or subconsciously misquote the person you're rebutting. It is just a poor reflection of your own ideas and isn't doing the "cause" any favours.

Your original reply is not well constructed and is very confusing (on purpose?).

In the first paragraph, you mention an anecdotal about your wife as a one off. That is your anecdotal.

The second paragraph you are talking about what you think is happening, it's your opinion without it being necessarily backed up by your anecdotal.

The fact that you even had this kind of thought, is baffling in itself.

I have to say, it's almost tempted to say that the male trainer in Pokémon X/Y got hard done by. I'm playing as the female as my main, and she has such a huge variety of clothing. Loads of my mates regret picking the male character. I can't remember the last time that happened!

Haha, really?! I haven't picked that one yet. That sounds quite bad. Not really used to it either. But it doesn't make sense, why would they do that?

 

[shanshan310]

It's a bit unfair to say I don't understand the argument. The fact is, I have seen many people calling out characters and saying how unacceptable there are etc.
I think some of the feminists are a very hostile and go about things the "Malcolm X" way so to speak. That's fine enough, but they will get a hostile reaction back, and to me that doesn't really help anyone and drowns out some of the more helpful suggestions.
I think you should be able to play as characters that you yourself can relate to, and I would like to be able to do the same. I think the answer is calling out to devs, asking for more options, more designs that can relate to a much broader audience.

Fair enough. Sorry about that. I'd say the hostility tends to be pretty chicken and egg, but in the end it really doesn't help either side.

 

[RpgN]

Note how the games you mentined targeted a bigger audience before all this happaned? That is, developers knew that there was a female audience out there, and if they wanted said audience, they make games that went after them.

So far, I'm not seeing any changes that would have happened without these complaints. The games that targeted a bigger audience continue to do so, and those who don't, don't seem to care besides the usual pr statement. And until that changes, I'll consider these complaints small.

I can think of some examples that emerged after these recent complaints (as in for the past 2 years or so).

The new Mario game on the Wii U let's you play with Peach in co-op, that wasn't the case in previous multiplayer mario games. Pikmin 3 also has a female pilot, besides the 2 male pilots, the previous games only had male pilots. I read something about some FPSs also having female soldiers now (I think it was CoD Ghosts and other lesser known one).

I'd say that's a pretty good progress personally.

Edit:

I'm not sure if this example is the choice of the developer or not after the complaints, but MM originally reveiled Tearaway with a male type character last year. They since also reveiled a female type of character you can select. This is quite a difference from their previous game Little Big Planet, that only had a sack boy with that one.

 

[LordJim]

I can think of some examples that emerged after these complaints.

The new Mario game on the Wii U let's you play with Peach in co-op, that wasn't the case in previous multiplayer mario games. Pikmin 3 also has a female pilot, besides the 2 male pilots, the previous games only had male pilots. I read something about some FPSs also having female soldiers now (I think it was CoD Ghosts and other lesser known one).

I'd say that's a pretty good progress personally.

Many other FPS games have had female models already.
The complaining was more about CoD/Battlefield, which are the most popular.
Peach as a character has been used a lot in general and had her own platformer as well.
Not to mention you need to consider how long the games have been in development and what actually influenced them.

Might as well attribute every female character from now on to these complaints if we use such examples

 

[RpgN]

Many other FPS games have had female models already.
The complaining was more about CoD/Battlefield, which are the most popular.
Peach as a character has been used a lot in general and had her own platformer as well.
Not to mention you need to consider how long the games have been in development and what actually influenced them.

Might as well attribute every female character from now on to these complaints if we use such examples

Wait a sec, you're just brushing off examples in a way to suite you.

1. I'm well aware that other (many?) FPS games had female models, but those specific ones obviously didn't, and they're popular mainstream ones.

2. Peach has been used as a character a lot in general as an NPC to be rescued (besides Super Mario Bros. 2). This is the very first time where you can select her in MULTIPLAYER mario platforming games. In the past, you could only select Mario, Luigi, Toad, Yoshi and Wario.

3. Peach being used in a spin-off has been mentioned more than once as defence but it's not a good one at all. Not because just for the fact that it's a spin-off, but because it's the very definition of a bad stereotype of a female character. Her super powers are her emotions ffs!

 

[LordJim]

snip

Exaggerated control of emotions, yes.
The stretch that this reinforces women faking emotions and so forth has been a rather hilarious argument.
The game was not great in general, that is true.
I am just saying that whether it was a result of the complaints or not is very hard to confirm.

 

[Dabookerman]

Haha, really?! I haven't picked that one yet. That sounds quite bad. Not really used to it either. But it doesn't make sense, why would they do that?

Well, males in general have a limited choice in what they tend to wear. I mean it's generally a cross between shorts/jeans/tshirts/hoodies and a few other bits and pieces.
Female trainer on the other hand has loads of different types of shoes, skirts/jeans/dresses/tops/hats. Just a much larger variety, which I think reflects the fact that females have loads different styles available to them.
I think that's great though. They just need to come up with slightly less boring styles for male trainers really

Fair enough. Sorry about that. I'd say the hostility tends to be pretty chicken and egg, but in the end it really doesn't help either side.

No worries And yeah, it's irrelevant. It's just about trying to find a solution that pleases everyone without pissing people off.. that's my approach.

 

[dapperbandit]

So that apology seemed more like:

"we're sorry about what we did, thanks for bringing it to our attention so we can do absoltely nothing about it now shutup and go away please"

Which is probably the best way to handle situations like this.

 

[Deleted member 325805]

Back when I played WoW we had lots of women in our guild and they all wanted to look cute and 'sexy', I've never met a girl that wanted her character more covered. And after playing LoL for a few months it's clear the sexier the skin the more popular it is.

 

[RpgN]

Exaggerated control of emotions, yes.
The stretch that this reinforces women faking emotions and so forth has been a rather hilarious argument.
The game was not great in general, that is true.
I am just saying that whether it was a result of the complaints or not is very hard to confirm.

Well yes, of course. I agree that it's very hard to confirm and know for sure that it's because of the complaints with every example. I would say though, that with the industry as whole with their recent examples, they can't be all a mere coincidence. They are well aware of such complaints existing for the last 2 years at the very least, and maybe this has been shown more often with some market research they have conducted themselves, who knows.

All I'm trying to say is, there definitely has been some shift that is felt within the industry and complaints only help with this and they definitely make a difference.

Well, males in general have a limited choice in what they tend to wear. I mean it's generally a cross between shorts/jeans/tshirts/hoodies and a few other bits and pieces.
Female trainer on the other hand has loads of different types of shoes, skirts/jeans/dresses/tops/hats. Just a much larger variety, which I think reflects the fact that females have loads different styles available to them.

Ooooh, I see now. Thanks for explaining this further.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

Bah I usually like when RPS tries to throw some curveballs but this time it just comes off as snarky and completely useless.

I mean everyone knows they are not doing this because they are drooling perverts fulfilling their own fantasies by designing these types of characters.

Until the audience changes you are stuck with this. At the end of the day they are running a business and pointing out shit like this is not adding anything to the conversation.

We are currently supporting two JP indie games on Greenlight.
One is a very good character action game created by some young Japanese devs starring what can best be described as samurai school girls. There is nothing overtly sexual about it. Sure you might get some panty shots while she is flipping around. But that is it.

The other game is what I would consider a revolutionary project by an extremely accomplished fighting game creator that is trying to put the FGC e-sports scene in the hands of the community and creators instead of large corporations only worried about their bottom line.

These are both good games that deserve to be on Steam but you don't even want to know the difference in the Yes/No votes and overall clicks.

So what is my honest advice to the FGC engine creator? Make a new icon for Greenlight starring some of your female characters!

Do I feel bad having to give that sort of advice to him? Hell yes I do.

But I would feel even worse if I said nothing and ignored what is popular to the detriment of the developer and project.

 

[Harlock]

You get a feminist group that hate it, of course, but women like to dress in a more sexy way. If was not the this case, Marissa Mayer would use suits like other men CEOs.

The american game journalist are firing the guns in the wrong problem, when they to concentrate in lower incomed, bad ambiente in work place, things like that.

 

[shanshan310]

Well, males in general have a limited choice in what they tend to wear. I mean it's generally a cross between shorts/jeans/tshirts/hoodies and a few other bits and pieces.
Female trainer on the other hand has loads of different types of shoes, skirts/jeans/dresses/tops/hats. Just a much larger variety, which I think reflects the fact that females have loads different styles available to them.
I think that's great though. They just need to come up with slightly less boring styles for male trainers really



No worries And yeah, it's irrelevant. It's just about trying to find a solution that pleases everyone without pissing people off.. that's my approach.

I like that

That stuff about the pokemon guys sucks. I hadn't noticed since I chose a female character, but that's really weird. I'm sure you could have just as much variety if the designers had put any thought in. I'd want to dress my guy up in a nice suit, or something cool and punky. Just looking it up, seems like there aren't as many hair styles either...

 

[Dabookerman]

I like that

That stuff about the pokemon guys sucks. I hadn't noticed since I chose a female character, but that's really weird. I'm sure you could have just as much variety if the designers had put any thought in. I'd want to dress my guy up in a nice suit, or something cool and punky. Just looking it up, seems like there aren't as many hair styles either...

I'd imagine they'd have loads more variety in Pokemon Z. Hopefully anyway. I think they did a great job all things considering. It's their first proper trainer customization feature and I felt they went much further than I thought they would.

For reference this page has a list with pic of all the types of clothing you can get - http://serebii.net/xy/customisation.shtml

I always get a tad frustrated with male hair styles. Where are my long flowing locks? >.<

 

[Corronchilejano]

So... no one in RPS has actually seen how roller derby women dress? Here's a local example:

OMG, look at all those women objectifying themselves! How dare they do whatever the hell they want.

Seriously though, maybe I'm not seeing what this guy is seeing because Roller Derby Nova could be any of those girls and not stand out.

 

[Nicktals]

wait, I'm not sure I get how having a character who has certain measurements is objectifying them. Wouldn't we have to discuss their dialogue, their background, or their motivations?

Saying you're objectifying women because they fit a physical mold seems, well, sexist.



Also, when did we reach the point where we can only feel empowered if we look like like the character we're controlling? Is he asserting that unless you look like that derby girl you can't feel empowered by playing as her?

 

[Nymphae]

It really blows my mind that stuff like this creates so much discussion and controversy. We're all just trying to have fun.

My two cents: people like attractive characters and human beings. I don't see anything wrong with artists creating characters that they find appealing. If you are upset about the representations of women in games like Heroes or Dragon's Crown or whatever, don't play those games. Buy and support ones that have art styles you do enjoy.

 

[Prax]

I think the point is there should be more diversity with female designs anyway.
These oversexualized characters wouldn't become such a target if they weren't the ONLY FEMALE REPRESENTATION in most games. The fact that we only have like.. 10 characters to go to for examples of well-rounded design or diversity speaks a lot, I think.

It is tiring running into the same types of tropes for females again and again and only being presented with one or two options to pick from (if you can pick them at all as a character, that is).

 

[Corronchilejano]

I think the point is there should be more diversity with female designs anyway.
These oversexualized characters wouldn't become such a target if they weren't the ONLY FEMALE REPRESENTATION in most games. The fact that we only have like.. 10 characters to go to for examples of well-rounded design or diversity speaks a lot, I think.

It is tiring running into the same types of tropes for females again and again and only being presented with one or two options to pick from (if you can pick them at all as a character, that is).

... well, that IS true. The thing that's never missing in a female design is: Make sure you can see her boobs.

Pointy boobs too.

 

[Dougstyles]

Lack of variety and creating women characters that are designed only to be sexy isn't a blizzard only problem and no one is trying to pick on blizzard. It's across the board, and it has nothing to do with any kind of "beliefs".

You have absolutely nothing to lose as a result of these issues being discussed. We aren't trying to take away your fun games, we're trying to make them more fun for everyone.

And yet these discussions always seem to crop up in the context of an individual game or developer being vilified for how it portrays women. The perception (created by the more radical elements of the "SJW" community, perhaps, but they seem to be speaking the loudest) is that feminists see sexualized female characters as an inherent wrong that should be excised from the industry completely.

Those radical elements are your own version of the Tea Party, and their aggressive polarization has pushed the conversation to a stalemate. I want to see more variety in female characters as much as anyone, but don't tell me that I am a

underdeveloped man-child.

for enjoying sexualized female character design, because that's never going to be a productive conversation.

 

[Seeds]

I can think of some examples that emerged after these recent complaints (as in for the past 2 years or so).

The new Mario game on the Wii U let's you play with Peach in co-op, that wasn't the case in previous multiplayer mario games. Pikmin 3 also has a female pilot, besides the 2 male pilots, the previous games only had male pilots. I read something about some FPSs also having female soldiers now (I think it was CoD Ghosts and other lesser known one).

I'd say that's a pretty good progress personally.

Edit:

I'm not sure if this example is the choice of the developer or not after the complaints, but MM originally reveiled Tearaway with a male type character last year. They since also reveiled a female type of character you can select. This is quite a difference from their previous game Little Big Planet, that only had a sack boy with that one.

Peach in 3d land is a throwback to Peach in Super Mario Bros 2, in which you could also play as her. And Pikmin 3 was in development for the Wii before they moved it to the WiiU. I.e, the female character was included long before these complaints.

FPSs have had female soldiers for quite some time now. So again, these are changes that have happened in the genre for a while.

Basically, the changes I'm seeing would have happened regardless of these complaints.

 

[shanshan310]

And yet these discussions always seem to crop up in the context of an individual game or developer being vilified for how it portrays women. The perception (created by the more radical elements of the "SJW" community, perhaps, but they seem to be speaking the loudest) is that feminists see sexualized female characters as an inherent wrong that should be excised from the industry completely.

Those radical elements are your own version of the Tea Party, and their aggressive polarization has pushed the conversation to a stalemate. I want to see more variety in female characters as much as anyone, but don't tell me that I am a



for enjoying sexualized female character design, because that's never going to be a productive conversation.

These threads pop up as examples and always always lead into a bigger discussion about the gaming industry in general. If people aren't allowed to use examples or have opinions on specific things how can we even call attention to the problems. No one is picking in Blizzard.

If anyone is calling you that (I'm not), it's not for enjoying sexy characters. I believe that the pocket of women saying that all sexualised characters are wrong is small, especially considering I've never even come across people making such arguments. "Feminists" have become a demonised caricature that all manner of crazy arguments are pinned on for the sake of having a straw man to argue with. I honestly feel like what is souring the debate is people misunderstanding the argument and thinking someone wants to take away their boobs. It's impossible to argue when people just want to complain about feminists, and many understandably end up frustrated which leads to being labelled one of the crazies. I'm not trying to be rude to you and I'm sorry if I've come off that way, I'm just trying to get people to understand.

 

[darkpower]

If you think one character showing her midriff is what people are complaining about I can definitely understand why you think they are overreacting. Lack of variety and creating women characters that are designed only to be sexy isn't a blizzard only problem and no one is trying to pick on blizzard. It's across the board, and it has nothing to do with any kind of "beliefs". It seems to me like you merely want to dismiss the problem as irrelevant because you either can't see it, don't understand it, or aren't bothered personally by it. By all means, if you don't think it's worthy of discussion feel free to step out, but it's a real problem for many people. You calling them over-reacting Marge Simpsons doesn't make it any less so.

Okay, for the FOURTH time now, it's just my way of disagreeing with the viewpoint that it's in any way a concern for characters like Jaina in WoW to wear an outfit like she does (which is tame compared to some others that other characters wear in other games) when you consider the context of things like setting, personality, class, etc. And you are again misrepresenting what my example was supposed to illustrate. I don't know if you're trying to troll me into discrediting the example or not or baiting me into something else entirely, but bottom line is that if you actually WATCHED that episode that I'm referring to, you would get what it's supposed to get at in this discussion. I don't know how clearer I can make it to where you can understand that it's a fundamental disagreement with some of the viewpoints (which I didn't know I wasn't supposed to do).

...Did you seriously overlook the fact that the Kotaku article was made in response to the censorship of Tharja's butt? The author felt that the aforementioned censorship was ridiculous and made an equally ridiculous complaint. Unless you think "a girl's butt in a bikini" is inappropriate for teenagers.

And did you seriously ignore the other articles that Patricia Hernandez wrote about things like Farcry 3: Blood Dragon? Seriously, I don't think I'm that far off that she wasn't just trying to troll people with that Animal Crossing thing when you take into account the other articles she's done showing how she doesn't have any clue what she's talking about!

 

[RpgN]

Peach in 3d land is a throwback to Peach in Super Mario Bros 2, in which you could also play as her. And Pikmin 3 was in development for the Wii before they moved it to the WiiU. I.e, the female character was included long before these complaints.

FPSs have had female soldiers for quite some time now. So again, these are changes that have happened in the genre for a while.

Basically, the changes I'm seeing would have happened regardless of these complaints.

Again, just like with LordJim's reply, you seem to want to brush my reply off just for the sake of it.

I already responded back to him with similar arguments, so you can read that if you haven't already. I'm going to respond to some of the points that only you mentioned:

1. Peach in 3d land is not a throwback to Super Mario Bros. 2. Super Mario Bros. 2 only had Peach as a playable character for an entirely different reason, and that was because it was based on a game that wasn't Mario in the first place, and that version already had female characters in them. I can assure you that wouldn't be the case if they build the game from the ground up as a Mario game. Secondly, I was talking about mutiplayer mario games specifically and making a comparison how previous ones didn't have Peach in them. I suppose it still doesn't make much of a difference if I would include all mario platformers regardless.

2. I know Pikmin 3 was in development for the wii, I was looking forward to it. The addition of a female pilot was revealed much later however. Along with one of Nintendo's staff talking SPECIFICALLY about why Nintendo has been including more female characters in their games around the time of its reveal (along with mario 3d land and a third game). He/she said, if it was up to Miyamoto, there wouldn't have been playable female characters but a different staff that was in charge of this decision, decided to have the inclusion of female characters to give more choice to players.

I'm getting tired of people who apparently don't know how to read or that they already made up their mind before reading my comments. With the second option, they're just trying to find any ammo to prove their point. Do me a favour and don't bother responding if that's what you're doing.

 

[inky]

OMG, look at all those women objectifying themselves! How dare they do whatever the hell they want.

Seriously though, maybe I'm not seeing what this guy is seeing because Roller Derby Nova could be any of those girls and not stand out.

You are indeed not seeing them. I'm not saying I agree with RPS and their methods, but you can see several small details: the tip of the gun, the ponytails, the bra on top of the shirt that go beyond the image you post. There is a certain intent to those details. I don't think it is an offensive intent, I just think it could be misconstrued as careless. Things like boob-shaped armor are always a sign of this type of design.

Maybe some designers should make a double take before putting them out there, that is all I'm going to say.

 

[Corronchilejano]

You are indeed not seeing them. I'm not saying I agree with RPS and their methods, but you can see several small details: the tip of the gun, the ponytails, the bra on top of the shirt that go beyond the image you post. There is a certain intent to those details. I don't think it is an offensive intent, I just think it could be misconstrued as careless. Things like boob-shaped armor are always a sign of this type of design.

Maybe some designers should make a double take before putting them out there, that is all I'm going to say.

I'll give you that. After Sarkeesians' video, all I can think of is how lazy and boring womens' designs are in most videogames.

 

[scytheavatar]

Dustin Browder deserves lots of respect for how professionally he handed this, anyone else in his place could have easily made him and his team look bad by giving a response he shouldn't give.

 

[Dougstyles]

These threads pop up as examples and always always lead into a bigger discussion about the gaming industry in general. If people aren't allowed to use examples or have opinions on specific things how can we even call attention to the problems. No one is picking in Blizzard.

If anyone is calling you that (I'm not), it's not for enjoying sexy characters. I believe that the pocket of women saying that all sexualised characters are wrong is small, especially considering I've never even come across people making such arguments. "Feminists" have become a demonised caricature that all manner of crazy arguments are pinned on for the sake of having a straw man to argue with. I honestly feel like what is souring the debate is people misunderstanding the argument and thinking someone wants to take away their boobs. It's impossible to argue when people just want to complain about feminists, and many understandably end up frustrated which leads to being labelled one of the crazies. I'm not trying to be rude to you and I'm sorry if I've come off that way, I'm just trying to get people to understand.

2,992 posts

1,837 posts

1,339 posts

1,939 posts

1,816 posts

7,542 posts

2,412 posts

These are just from this year alone. What's souring the debate is the accusatory nature of the debate itself.

 

[TyrantGuardian]

You know, a thing that actually helps me relate to these issues is that hair style thing... as well as beards. Whenever I end up playing some random MMO and get to customize my character, I've come across several games where the male characters don't have any kinds of long hair and/or full beards. It probably shouldn't annoy me as much as it does, but when I'm trying to make a visual representation of myself in a game, it just takes me out of the experience by a huge lot.

I'd imagine its the same for many female gamers when they have no way to make their character appear somewhat as they do in real life. Bit of a side-note in the grand scheme of things, but yeah, felt relevant to mention.

 

[Nostalgic Nightmare]

These are games in a fantasy backdrop so everyone is going to look ultra sexy and magical. I mean look at any fantasy romance novel and it's either some Fabio looking guy, or an amazon with ridiculous proportions making love to a dinosaur. Sex sells everywhere I suppose.
If people are really being made to feel awkward playing the games, that is unfortunate, but I highly doubt Blizzard's intent is for that to happen.

 

[Prince Vultan]

What a hero.

 

[conman]

I want to see more variety in female characters as much as anyone, but don't tell me that I am a ["underdeveloped man-child"] for enjoying sexualized female character design, because that's never going to be a productive conversation.

You completely misunderstood my comment and took it (literally) out of context. I used the term to describe the way that Blizzard was treating us, not the way that any of us is acting.