Support NeoGAF

[ScOULaris]

Haha I remember a while ago, I was playing SSF4 online with a buddy of mine and another guy. I'm okay at SF, I wouldn't say I was good but I basically know how to play. I was up against this other guy, playing Chun-Li, who was decent, probably better than me. We had a good match, and he beat me. We both played SF normally, neither of us were near pro but we were okay.

Then my friend, playing Cammy, went up against him. My friend just button mashes and doesn't really know how to play. He's a lot like that Ryu, a lot of jumping, tons of random cannon spikes. Of course, he beats the Chun-Li that beat me. Dude would never let me hear the end of it, as that proved he was forever better at SF4 than me.

It actually is surprisingly tough to play against a player like that if you're used to playing normally for a long time. When I played vs my friend I lost a few matches because of it. SF is all about using safe moves to feel a player out and never using unsafe moves unless you're sure they'll hit. All about reactions and watching your opponent and mind games. That all goes out the window, as a random unsafe shoryuken beats a safe jab if they both come out at the same time. You have to completely change how you play, as being aggressive at all and throwing out any attack, even the fastest jab, becomes a game of chance and luck. Once I adapted, I won 99% of the time just blocking and punishing and doing nothing else. But it can be really hard forcing yourself to change your entire playstyle at the drop of a hat when you're suddenly facing a player like that.

I consider myself to be intermediate in SF4, and I'm often susceptible to scrubby Blanka shenanigans. For the life of me I've never been good against that character.

 

[nikos]

Dat Day 0 Ryu. Those types of players can be hard to deal with sometimes. Your brain just shuts down in disbelief. He should have adapted though. Usually, all you have to do is block and punish.

 

[Shouta]

Are newer players actually referred to "scrubs", or is that only pro players looking down on them sort of thing. He was not looking very happy though lol.

No. When someone says "Scrub" it usually refers to a player that is of low skill and does things without rhyme or reason. It's a step above "button-masher" but still in the same general area. Even high-level players can have "Scrub" moments depending on state of mind at the time. It happens in pretty much every game.

 

[I H8 Memes]

I think you are being sloppy with the way you use the term "skill ceiling". The "skill" you seem to be referring to is mechanical fundamentals. This is only one aspect of the way games are played. The only reason I bring this up is because fighting games are not inherently easier or less skilled than other competitive games, but it seems like you are saying they are. They are different, for sure. Shorter, faster paced, but they also require a different type of "skill" and mindset. You need to be able to consistently time 1/60th of a second button presses.

Sure, this video is an example of that stuff not being necessary to win all the time, but as someone else mentioned this guy got eliminated immediately after this match.

At the top level every game requires players who can make 1/60th of a second button presses. Maybe not COD but games like Starcraft 2/dota 2/lol/cs/quake all do. Fighting games as well.

I really hope you are talking about technical aspects like distance between opponents due to terrain and things like HP points over equal life bars and not subjective things like rts and fps require some magical skillset that makes it sound like an expert in rts/fps is somehow more able than an expert in fighting game.

Yes there is a difference. There is a reason these pro players get paid as much as they do compared to fighting games. These games are fucking hard on another level.

Here we go. A moment from a game I've never even played.

http://youtu.be/Cwp1dZFwGak?t=25m18s

1/60th of a second timing from both sides yet controlling so so many units simultaneously. It's really incredible what top level players in Starcraft are able to do. The splitting and moving of units, regrouping, feinting, the depth of game mechanics and knowledge needed. Realize that there are other groups of units not even in the frame being controlled at the same time by both sides.

You think a tier 2 player could ever take out CS player f0rest in a first to 10 kills match? The guy just doesn't miss shots. None of the top players in CS do. It comes down to who is fastest and who can out think and predict the other side.

FG's have a lot in common that way, and they arent easy games at all, they are just a level below these other competitive games. FG's take place inside a box. The box is the skill ceiling limitation. You cant really say how truly skilled these guys are with a game that limits them so much. But we can see that they certainly dont have to think their way around as many variables like terrain, spawn timings, and gameplay variables. A fighting games move list and counters is not in any way comparable to the variable in these other games. You think Navi's fountain hooks were easy? Timing Chens test of faith on Pudge precisely with a windrunner force staff on Pudge so he can throw a perfectly timed hook at an opponent that they only could guess where on the map they were.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oB0tUrfDz6A

I'm serious here. On almost all of those hooks Navi had pretty much no idea where on the map the other team was. They could only go by game sense and some small indicators to guess where they were on the map then set their entire hook timing up around that. Chen puts his test of faith on pudge before they even see the other team. Pudge is going back to his own base whether they find the other team or not. But of course they did at least find them and guessed right almost every time and only missed a few of these hooks.Thats a combination of timing reflexes talent and instincts. This wasnt for fun. This was a last ditch effort to stay alive in a tournament with a 1.5 million dollar first prize. It worked.

Here is a guy throwing his pistol off a box to trick the other player into thinking he threw a flashbang.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QzM_2pdH1Y

These are just small tastes of the creativity allowed inside of these types of games. Really simple demonstrations of how the more open nature of a game like even the rather strict counter strike raises the skill ceiling beyond quick reflexes timing and positioning.

Where is the theory crafting in fighting games? The variables in a game like dota 2 are immense and so are the results that can come from theory crafting. Does the game have the creative freedom that allows a great player to do something not even intended by the designers? Can you create a new move from combinations of existing moves? I'm not trying to put down fighting games here, they are very difficult at the top level and deserve their place in real honest competitive gaming unlike very low skill ceiling games like Halo or COD. But they do not compare to the skill ceilings of games like Starcraft 2, Dota 2, Quake, and CS. Fighting games take environment and any theory crafting and almost all creativity out of the picture.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

Thats how the fighting game "community" works donchaknow, this thread is redolent of the pointless elitism that permeates it

Should see a doctor about that chip on your shoulder.

 

[Mr Cola]

I remember Athene Challenged Alex Ich to a best of 5 1v1 for "Who is the best ryze" in League of Legends, got schooled in round one, faked a police invasion in round 2, went afk in round 3 and then comfortably lost round 4.

Athene is a tool.

 

[theprodigy]

Yes there is a difference. There is a reason these pro players get paid as much as they do compared to fighting games. These games are fucking hard on another level.

You cannot possibly be serious

 

[ScOULaris]

RANT.

I agree with your points on things like DotA and Starcraft 2 since there are just way more variables at play with those genres than there are in fighting games, but I'm not sure I agree about FPS's. FPS's are probably in line with fighting games in that there is a simple objective (shoot/hit) the other player until they are dead. Position, timing, reflexes, and mindgames matter in both genres, but they are both boxed in mechanically in the same way as compared to more wide-open games like SC and DotA.

That's part of the appeal of fighting games. Conceptually they are inviting to even the casual player since their basic mechanics are easy to grasp, but at a high level the difference in skill is immense. It's just a different kind of experience. RTS games have a much higher initial barrier to entry in terms of simply learning the basic mechanics, and they just have a lot more to keep track of over the course of a match at a high level.

All of these games take immense skill at the top level. There is some crossover between them, but each genre also has its own set of specific skills that need to be harnessed.

 

[BronsonLee]

Oh god this is turning into a MOBA vs fighting games topic
ABANDON THREAD

 

[Lost Fragment]

.

You talk a lot about things you don't have the first idea about.

 

[jet1911]

Looks exactly like me when I try to play SF lol. The commentators were funny.

 

[FindMyFarms]

Yes there is a difference. There is a reason these pro players get paid as much as they do compared to fighting games. These games are fucking hard on another level.

You are smoking something and also ignorant. The income disparity has nothing to do with skill perceived and EVERYTHING to do with accessibility and ability to monetize.

My friend was on the BEST team in the world for TF2, plays SC2 competitively, and has also been playing fighting games forever, and he'll be the first to tell you that his Tekken play takes more skill than his TF2. Also, this is purely anecdotal as well, but I have a friend of mine is learning fighting games and is having the hardest time doing it. His team won starleague in 2010, so he wasn't exactly a nobody in SC2.

the moral of the story is that no one genre is harder than the other at the top level, and you're dumb.

 

[I H8 Memes]

LOL there is competitive TF2? You've got to be kidding me.

 

[vocab]

That video is the embodiment of everything I hate about SFIV.

 

[Skilletor]

That video is the embodiment of everything I hate about SFIV.

Do tell, because I see nothing in that video that wouldn't happen in any other Street Fighter.

 

[vocab]

Do tell, because I see nothing in that video that wouldn't happen in any other Street Fighter.

Mash dp during blockstrings in other street fighter games. Let me know if it works.

 

[Skilletor]

Mash dp during blockstrings in other street fighter games. Let me know if it works.

In this instance, vs this player? Sure would.

The know block string he tried to do was St. Lk, s. Hp, hardly the best or safest block strain to be trying, and not adapting to a player who is OBVOLIOUSLY Mashing reversals is not the game's fault.

 

[JeTmAn81]

I remember having a similar experience playing in a very small local Marvel tournament. My opponent was a guy who didn't even know how to set up his controls. I had to help him with that. Once we started, he picked Wolverine and basically spammed random attacks. A lot Swiss Cheese in there. I was able to beat him, but it was a lot harder than it should have been. I was really taken aback and had a hard time figuring out exactly how to handle him. In the end, basic fundamentals got me through but it's amazing how effective a random playstyle can be.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

LOL there is competitive TF2? You've got to be kidding me.

Yes, and it's incredible to watch. You should check it out sometime.

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

I've always hated/ had to use as a crutch how stupidly easy they made reversals in SF4. 3 frame Shoryuken startup, invincibility frames, trade into Ultra, combo into Ultra off of anti-air? And that shit did something like 270 damage off of counter-hit in vanilla. Random Ryus are surprisingly hard to play against because you never know when you'll get hit by an uppercut. Don't even think about dropping a link.

 

[khaaan]

Gold.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfEVcZ3anG0#t=03m30s

Poor guy, at least he can say he won!

This is so wrong it hurts. All this video proves is that the best competitive players are the ones who keep their composure and learn to adapt to their opponents. FSP sadly could not do this and paid the price. As for not having skill to play SSF4 competitively, lets are Gandhi try that against Infiltration or even Mike Ross #kappa

You didn't even read the post, did you?

 

[Shito]

Does the game have the creative freedom that allows a great player to do something not even intended by the designers?

Yes they do.
All the time.
Heck, combos were not intended.

I'm not trying to put down fighting games here, they are very difficult at the top level and deserve their place in real honest competitive gaming unlike very low skill ceiling games like Halo or COD. But they do not compare to the skill ceilings of games like Starcraft 2, Dota 2, Quake, and CS. Fighting games take environment and any theory crafting and almost all creativity out of the picture.

You obviously don't know shit about fighting games.
It's not a problem, though: I know very little about DOTA or CS.
Yet you don't see me pretending I do and comparing them to fighting games...

 

[Freshmaker]

Are newer players actually referred to "scrubs", or is that only pro players looking down on them sort of thing. He was not looking very happy though lol.

Scrubs tend to be people who have played enough to have established patterns etc. They're not necessarily new to the game, but they do suboptimal stuff without giving it much thought.

They're annoying because you can't mind game them. You basically just have to turn off your brain and just destroy their pattern over and over.

 

[pixelish]

LOL there is competitive TF2? You've got to be kidding me.

yes, please be more ignorant towards competitive games that aren't 'esports'.

 

[Portugeezer]

Lol, sore loser.

 

[JayFalcon]

The commentator are scensters and the sarcastic manner rubs me up the worng way...they are soooo cool.

 

[I H8 Memes]

Hey there's a reason that even after all these years in competitive gaming the FGC hasnt risen above sitting in lawn chairs with the controller they brought from home sitting in their lap while they play in front of dozens. Dozens of people I say! Competitively, fighting games are scrub level.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

The invincible shoryuken

Who is the scrub? The inexperienced player or the "professional" who lost to him?

Theyre both scrubs, but gandhi is a worse player though. He has absolutely no fundamentals. That said fsp got beat fairly, hes not entitled to the win because he understands the game better. He has to execute, he has to punish gandhi for being horrible.

 

[ScOULaris]

Hey there's a reason that even after all these years in competitive gaming the FGC hasnt risen above sitting in lawn chairs with the controller they brought from home sitting in their lap while they play in front of dozens. Dozens of people I say! Competitively, fighting games are scrub level.

And the reason is that the fighting game community predates "esports" and tends to prefer homegrown, grassroots tournaments. Has nothing to do with the skill involved in playing them.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

Where is the theory crafting in fighting games?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/member.php?u=10098

 

[Yoshichan]

I remember Athene Challenged Alex Ich to a best of 5 1v1 for "Who is the best ryze" in League of Legends, got schooled in round one, faked a police invasion in round 2, went afk in round 3 and then comfortably lost round 4.

Athene is a tool.

Just saw the police thingy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0UYFFfpdeo)

What the fuck?

 

[jetsetmario]

The funniest thing to me in this video is how poorly FSP handles his loss. The notion of better player/worse player gets tested every time you play a match. In this scenario he was clearly the worst player as he was unable to adapt his play style to best his opponent. This is no different than any other match he might have played.

 

[RockTurtle]

Hey there's a reason that even after all these years in competitive gaming the FGC hasnt risen above sitting in lawn chairs with the controller they brought from home sitting in their lap while they play in front of dozens. Dozens of people I say! Competitively, fighting games are scrub level.

They aren't free to play. They aren't on an open platform that has the penetration in the world like PC's. They end quickly. They originated on a platform (arcades) that is no longer a staple. They are not placed on a technical capable medium that allows for easy streaming. They need extra equipment to stream .

The Fgc has been alive for years. Will probably still be Alive after.

 

[Fantasmo]

OP please look for jyobin in Youtube

There's a "The best of jyobin" video by YogaFlame24 too, also on Youtube

I cannot provide the links since i'm at work now and YT is blocked

Granted jyobin sure knows his stuff but his random shenanigans make him a real pain in the ass to play against

Man you weren't kidding. His randomness is brilliant. Would not have expected any of that. The one I saw was uploaded by LiangHuBBB. I wouldn't call the guy a scrub though, he has some real solid combos.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

Hey there's a reason that even after all these years in competitive gaming the FGC hasnt risen above sitting in lawn chairs with the controller they brought from home sitting in their lap while they play in front of dozens. Dozens of people I say! Competitively, fighting games are scrub level.

Showing your true colors finally. Took you long enough.

Besides, I don't even agree with the notion that the whole bloated shit would be desireable for fighting games. There's no big money to be made out of this and that's the way I like it.

 

[Chavelo]

We all have been there, really. We start losing to our own mindgames when we face pl-

*ESPORTS BULLSHIT & DEFENCE FORCE DETECTED. ABORT, ABORT, ABORT!!!*

Oh, boy. Thought this was gonna be a nice thread. I also see Yoshichan is STILL salty for (VANILLA!) SF4 hahaha. GG, boy.

Yeah... bye.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

The funniest thing to me in this video is how poorly FSP handles his loss. The notion of better player/worse player gets tested every time you play a match. In this scenario he was clearly the worst player as he was unable to adapt his play style to best his opponent. This is no different than any other match he might have played.

It may be funny but its understandable.

 

[Vizzeh]

I dont even get fighting games like some of you guys, havent played them since the Super nintendo days, but enjoyed reading and watching this video.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

What's a street fighter's apm? I bet a dotaman presses more buttons in 10 seconds than any fighting game player does in a whole set!

 

[KHlover]

We all have been there, really. We start losing to our own mindgames when we face pl-

*ESPORTS BULLSHIT & DEFENCE FORCE DETECTED. ABORT, ABORT, ABORT!!!*

Oh, boy. Thought this was gonna be a nice thread. I also see Yoshichan is STILL salty for (VANILLA!) SF4 hahaha. GG, boy.

Yeah... bye.

Thank you for your contribution to the topic.

 

[Kimosabae]

In this instance, vs this player? Sure would.

The know block string he tried to do was St. Lk, s. Hp, hardly the best or safest block strain to be trying, and not adapting to a player who is OBVOLIOUSLY Mashing reversals is not the game's fault.

Mashing reversal in a block string doesn't work as well in older SF games, regardless of the nature of the string. The motion is less strict and the system holds inputs relevant for longer. You don't have to know a block string isn't true to execute a reversal DP in SF4.


Scrub-busting is an aspect of every FG, since all FGs have their scrubby tactics. SF4 introduces more variety in that domain due to the nature of its system mechanics and input system, making it very frustrating for some players.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Fuck "scrubbing out" a win.

If a player is too bad to know how to counter fireballs and dragon punches, he deserves to lose. It's like being mad in marvel because you let a guy x-factor and kill 3 of your guys with Akuma hurricane kick spam. If you lose to it, you deserved to lose. And yea you can be salty, but you should only be mad at yourself.

 

[PastorOfMuppets]

This sort of thing will be very familiar to anyone who plays poker.

It's considered a very real skill for a high level poker player - at least Hold'Em to be able to consistently beat terrible players. The levels of poker thinking:

Level 0: I have two cards
Level 1: What do I have?
Level 2: What does my opponent have?
Level 3: What does my opponent think I have?
Level 4: What does my opponent think that I think he has?
etc.

It's for someone who is accustomed to playing "level 4" to just level himself by thinking a Level 1 player is even capable of understanding what's happening and end up losing hands to them by believing they are capable of folding top pair on a board with straight and flush possibilities and end up making a terrible bluff. Here's a very good example of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tvrzKOyFGI

David Viffer vs Phil Ruffin:

Ruffin hits second pair with a very weak kicker. If he was a thinking player he would have considered that Viffer might have a big Ace since he raised preflop or better (two pair, three of a kind) but he's not really thinking like that. He just thinks "I have a king!". Viffer actually gives him too much credit thinking he can blow him off a marginal hand instead of beating him with fundamental play.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

Mashing reversal in a block string doesn't work as well in older SF games, regardless of the nature of the string. The motion is less strict and the system holds inputs relevant for longer. You don't have to know a block string isn't true to execute a reversal DP in SF4.


Scrub-busting is an aspect of every FG, since all FGs have their scrubby tactics. SF4 introduces more variety in that domain due to the nature of its system mechanics and input system, making it very frustrating for some players.

Flame Kick as bfb+K fuck yeah

 

[Freshmaker]

I think you are being sloppy with the way you use the term "skill ceiling". The "skill" you seem to be referring to is mechanical fundamentals. This is only one aspect of the way games are played. The only reason I bring this up is because fighting games are not inherently easier or less skilled than other competitive games, but it seems like you are saying they are. They are different, for sure. Shorter, faster paced, but they also require a different type of "skill" and mindset. You need to be able to consistently time 1/60th of a second button presses.

That isn't even the skill component. That's just execution. Mind games are really important in high level play.

 

[Cynar]

Actually, this is some master-level shit.

Gandhi uses his opponents negative energy, bad execution, and misguided momentum to make them trip themselves up. Fuck playing to your strengths, play to your opponent's weakness.

Sure it doesn't look skillful. But the real duel is happening in FSP's mind, and he is getting the shit kicked out of him.

This. Just because the more well known player lost to different tactics doesn't make the other player a scrub.

 

[Shinypogs]

I have seen pros in sc2 lose to canon rushes, early pools and other cheese from fans or unknown players. I don't know that I've ever seen them lose a proper macro game though.

Although I guess this sort of thing would be more like those couple months back in 2011 where Destiny was going mass infestor and beat a bunch of top korean players with it in show matches. He would then proceed to be marginally relevant at the next mlg he attended. He was never on the level of Bomber or his ilk overall but when mass infestor was a rarity ( of the korean zergs I think only Coca used it then) his opponents simply didn't know wtf to do about it and would lose to it.

 

[Alx]

Eh, that's how I like to play fighting games, even those in which I have invested a lot of time and have a decent understanding of the mechanics : reactive, try random things just to see if it gets through, fight "by the bottom of your seat", do cool moves just because...
And I'm quite convinced that's how most game designers intended their games to be played actually. Remember that combos were a glitch, initially.

 

[Skilletor]

Mashing reversal in a block string doesn't work as well in older SF games, regardless of the nature of the string. The motion is less strict and the system holds inputs relevant for longer. You don't have to know a block string isn't true to execute a reversal DP in SF4.


Scrub-busting is an aspect of every FG, since all FGs have their scrubby tactics. SF4 introduces more variety in that domain due to the nature of its system mechanics and input system, making it very frustrating for some players.

I never said that. I said in the instance of this video, same shit would have happened. You would absolutely be able to Mash dp through comparable block strings in, say, sf3s.

I agree with what you said, I just don't see how this video shows anything wrong with sf4 as vocab was saying.

 

[Manbig]

Scrubs tend to be people who have played enough to have established patterns etc. They're not necessarily new to the game, but they do suboptimal stuff without giving it much thought.

They're annoying because you can't mind game them. You basically just have to turn off your brain and just destroy their pattern over and over.

No. When someone says "Scrub" it usually refers to a player that is of low skill and does things without rhyme or reason. It's a step above "button-masher" but still in the same general area. Even high-level players can have "Scrub" moments depending on state of mind at the time. It happens in pretty much every game.

Negative on that use of the word "scrub". Simply being bad at the game doesn't make anyone a scrub and it's quite obnoxious to see it thrown around like that seeing as it was invented as a derogatory term for a specific kind of bad player.