-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Scrubbing out the win: Examples of "bad" players winning competitive games
- Thread starter ScOULaris
- Start date
I thought DreamHack was a major event even sponsored? I'm used to commentators having fun at locals, weeklies & get togethers, but if that's the way he plays, the commentators shouldn't be disrespecting the way he plays, especially considering he may be able to hear it. That's all
Man I don't know if you are trolling or not but there is definitely theory crafting in fighting games (especially the VS series most specifically MVC2/MVC3). And those games have a ton of creative freedom, more so than some RTS games and especially shooters. You are only correct in that fighting games mostly don't take the environment into the equation although some 3D fighters do now (like Tekken/DOA where the type of stage you fight in matter dictates the match a lot).
The skill level in fighting games is at least comparable to shooters and also comparable to the MOBA games maybe even higher. Its not at the level of RTS because of the macro involved but the execution requirement in fighting games is a lot as is the requirement for reflexes, fundamentals, mind games and knowledge.
If you want to see some example of theory crafting in fighting games then just read these blogs:
Team Nemo breakdown
Wesker's Last Stand team theory craft part 1 and part 2
These are just a small example of theory crafting in the game, a ton of thought and variables go into constructing a solid team for competitive play on top of having the proper skill to utilize it. Of course tier lists factor into the equation but tier lists/top characters factor into MOBAs as well so this is not an exclusive feature of fighting games.
Shouta
Member
Words change meaning over time. Trying to hang on to one definition is kind of silly. The scrub you're referring to is as I said in my edit, "scrubby attitude" blaming the game for shortcomings. "Scrubby play" is what we're referring to.
For reference, I've heard it used this used in other non-FGC game communities so it's not something unique to fighting games.
Ragingnight
Member
ding ding ding
We're talking about scrub play. We don't know what his fucking attitude is because we haven't heard a thing from him.
Also never once did I say a player using vergil xf3 was scrubby. I said that it was scrubby play. There are counters to it, but that doesn't mean vergil xf3 is not retardedly broken and scrubby.
bumpkin
Member
I'm not sure what I find funnier. The excuse that he's too good at playing good players to beat someone who's "bad" at the game, or the fact that he was such a poor-sport about losing. No handshake and "good game" after? Really dude? Grow up.
I hope someone had a fresh diaper handy for him.
I hope someone had a fresh diaper handy for him.
theprodigy
Member
Ragingnight
Member
what the shit? Why does anybody have to say GG or handshake after anything? Its not a poor sport. It shouldn't be the standard as well.
Simmer down fella, well it looks like you only watched the end of the match and not the whole thing. Again, why is that scrubby? I understand the game enough to know who is scrubby and who is a poor sport. its his style and it gets him wins. Why does he have to abide by your rules to not be considered scrubby. Maybe you need to take a long look in the mirror before you accuse anyone of being scrubby or an internet tough guy. because in this entire thread, you made yourself look like a dick
I don't know what good that would've done, its not like he was going to look through all my posts for examples of fighting game theory crafting.dude, we pretty much just linked to your profile for theorycrafting
Never said you couldn't it's just comparatively easier to execute a DP out of hit/blockstun in SF4.
Ignoring the reversal aspect and speaking more generally; the jab > DP nonsense is a prime example of the type of shit the SF4 system makes more prevalent than other games, and can be difficult to reign in. It was highly unlikely that those were entirely intentional, and explains why you'd often see him jabbing thin air - Gandhi was trying to get DP and fudging the input, constantly. A jab making making contact with Rufus' hitbox engages hitstun and offers more time to input the DP motion. Had he full meter stocked - FSP might have gotten Supered a few times. Eating DP > Super is a big reward to get unintentionally.
Currently in MTG there's a deck that's really fun and I've love to play....except that it can't beat Mono-Red. And thus, it is completely useless because it can't scrub-bust in the early rounds of a tournament.
bumpkin
Member
Maybe I'm just weird thinking that it's a gesture of good sportsmanship. Even when my team gets its ass kicked in ice hockey (real life, not video game), we still give respect where it's due and do handshakes after.
I totally agree. I'm all for kindness and respect and human decency. I'm just saying I'm not expecting a professional production here because, well, why would we? It'd be nice, sure.I thought DreamHack was a major event even sponsored? I'm used to commentators having fun at locals, weeklies & get togethers, but if that's the way he plays, the commentators shouldn't be disrespecting the way he plays, especially considering he may be able to hear it. That's all
OK, I can see where you're coming from. If blacktop skirmishes and street-level machismo and trash talk is how the scene wants to be seen, so be it. But if it wants to grow beyond that image, some measure of honor, humility and sportsmanship would go a long way. Or at the very least, letting your actions (a.k.a. winning) speak louder than your words (dismissals like the phrase "scrub").Kimpsabae said:
I thought DreamHack was a major event even sponsored? I'm used to commentators having fun at locals, weeklies & get togethers, but if that's the way he plays, the commentators shouldn't be disrespecting the way he plays, especially considering he may be able to hear it. That's all
I got bodied at EVO on stream by Infiltration. I haven't been able to find the index yet. I was a lot shook because I had to fight Infiltration and played like ass, like...worse than I've ever played. Missing sonic booms bad, but I could hear the commentators talking ish about me. It was funny, made me laugh. I guess it depends on the player, but it's what I've grown up with in the FGC. Play shitty, get called out on shitty play. lol
But man...I got mollywhopped.
theprodigy
Member
it's not like he's going to read your post either, and it was funnier
This is a very childish and arrogant attitude and harmful to fostering a community. If you go to a tourney, and both players play within the rules, the other player deserves that respect. It's not like you have to message someone GG after every online match.
NEOPARADIGM
Banned
Reminds me of basketball - like if you give a good defender a little wiggle/stutter-step, for instance, he's ironically more likely to bite than a scrub defender. The scrub defender is more likely to just stand there without any reaction whereas the good defender is prone to "defend" the wiggle thus giving an opening that wouldn't otherwise be there. Ironic as fuck.
I am very well aware that it is not just used in fighting games. It is also true that words change meaning over time, but do you really want a word that was meant to make fun of someone that deserved to be made fun of become a term to label everyone that just plays a game poorly? People didn't call anyone scrub back in the day without the intention to get a rise out of them. People don't deserve to be labeled that way just because "oh hey, we just kinda feel like using this word for this now." THAT is the obnoxious aspect of it that I'm talking about.
So, based on your definition here, there is no rhyme or reason to what Vergil is doing? Do you even read what you typed before clicking on the post button?
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Ok, this video is way better.
Shouta
Member
He was probably just more upset about his own play that he didn't want to. That's not really indicative of being a poor sport.
I got bodied at EVO on stream by Infiltration. I haven't been able to find the index yet. I was a lot shook because I had to fight Infiltration and played like ass, like...worse than I've ever played. Missing sonic booms bad, but I could hear the commentators talking ish about me. It was funny, made me laugh. I guess it depends on the player, but it's what I've grown up with in the FGC. Play shitty, get called out on shitty play. lol
But man...I got mollywhopped.
I got Infiltration twice at Canada Cup. I know how that is. Did ok against him in SF4 though. =o
Ragingnight
Member
Because I am a dick, both offline and online. We already explain why it is scrubby. It has no reason or logic behind his moves. He is just pressing buttons.
O that mirror talk. Thanks. It does take one to know one. I was a scrub once and still do scrubby shit to win once in awhile. Thats why I can call him out for it. Any veteran fighting game player has been through that road of being a scrub and the experience of being experience and occasionally losing to scrub tactics (online ken/zangief).
There is no "rules". Why the fuck does this keep getting brought up? There are no fucking rules. do whatever you want. But just know if you are doing random shit with no reasoning or logic behind it then it is scrubbbbbbbyyyyy
A LVL3 XF Vergil is pretty top tier and easy to execute hence why he is labelled as scrubby but I disagree with the statement that there is no such thing as smart Vergil play. When the juice runs out, the players who finish a match with Vergil are the ones who play smart and especially the ones who realize that XF3 Vergil is not going to cut it and will bring him earlier to finish a match faster and play more honestly without XF.
And blocking Vergil is extremely difficult. Its like saying learn to block Zero... yea OK man.
And if the other player loses to those "scrub" tactics, they're also a "scrub"
case in point, again, why does he need to play in your realm of rules? If his style of play is mashing buttons, well maybe the game devs should not make it so easy to mash buttons, eh?
THANKS FOR CLEARING UP MY POINT AGAIN. keep crying bout the match. Guy got his ass handed to him by a guy "just pushing buttons" as you put it. Who's the scrubby one exactly?
MyWhiteRequiem
Member
I think there should be a level of common courtesy expected of players. Whether you respect your opponent or not, it's good sportsmanship to shake hands/congratulate your opponent/say "good game" etc. and promotes the building of a healthier community overall.
Look at any sport. Whether that be basketball, soccor, hockey, boxing, martial arts, players are expected to shake hands, bow, etc. no matter how bitter the actual match is or how anyone might feel the opponent on the other team. It's good practice and good sportsmanship. Simple as that.
Players should hold themselves to a higher standard.
Look at any sport. Whether that be basketball, soccor, hockey, boxing, martial arts, players are expected to shake hands, bow, etc. no matter how bitter the actual match is or how anyone might feel the opponent on the other team. It's good practice and good sportsmanship. Simple as that.
Players should hold themselves to a higher standard.
Ragingnight
Member
You didn't dispprove anything. All you did was show that FSP played like an idiot.
In context to this set then yes. FSP played very badly. Nobody is saying he didn't play like shit.
Also losing to scrub tactics doesn't make you a scrub. XF3 Vergil says hello.
Safe 50/50 that leads to advantage situation for vergil when you block. Safe crossup that is hard to react to. Nullify neutral game with SS. Nullify projectiles with normals. Helm breaker's hitbox. Random crossup super. Stupid long ass normal.
DryEyeRelief
Member
I can't help but feel like half the people here are projecting themselves onto Ghandi because they play fighting games like him.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
ZealousMonkey
Banned
Agreed on chess if we are talking grandmaster level of play.
theprodigy
Member
You feel correctly then
I would say ironfist, but ironfist was actually pretty good and was just trolling the hell out of his opponents.
either way still, to today's date, the very best street fighter IV footage ever shown:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C0F_aVAnFU
either way still, to today's date, the very best street fighter IV footage ever shown:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C0F_aVAnFU
Shouta
Member
I think you're crossing streams here. A "scrubby play" Scrub is not an indictment of the individual being a bad person but that their play is unrefined and wild. The "scrubby attitude" Scrub IS one though and generally kind of icky. The "scrubby attitude" version has gotten a lot less usage in the FGC over the years for a variety of reasons.
Both players were not that good and not "professional" players by any means. I really don't know why this match is highlighted, a better example would be a legitimately unknown player winning against a known professional player. This match that was linked is no different than the type of matches you see online.
So what, you're just going to ignore the part about a subculture needing time to assimilate, and that I mentioned that the subculture is, in fact, assimilating (slowly)?
Seems like you're dying to pigeon-hole us into your microbial perspective.
DryEyeRelief
Member
I've seen this happen in arcades a bunch, specifically when playing Tekken 5 back in the day. Hardcore people tend to fall into certain effective strategies, and its really easy to get used only to playing against those players so when someone just goes off the cuff it can be hard for some people to adjust on the fly. I've seen people get wrecked by 10 string spamming randomly, when all you need to do is wait for the low, parry, and punish.
Sometimes it can be really hard to turn off the mix ups and mind games and just play it safe.
Sometimes it can be really hard to turn off the mix ups and mind games and just play it safe.
Never seen this, but knew what was going to happen after the whiffed fatal claw. lolololol
Necromanti
Member
There's nothing worse than a sore loser.
I'm doing this setup because it's a safe cross up that is hard to react to.
I'm doing this super because it has a chance to cross you up.
I'm throwing out this normal because it nullifies this projectile.
I'm using Helm Breaker because it has a fantastic hit box.
I'm zoning you with these normals because they have a lot of range.
Sounds like there's a lot of rhyme and reason to his play.
I disagree that there are different types of scrubs, as you are implying here. I mean, when was the last time you saw someone call someone else a scrub and then be asked "What kind of scrub is he?"
FindMyFarms
Member
There's room for both. You can have the 100% professional commentary, like you would when a basketball game is live, while still having the absolute clowning and shit talk that goes on during Inside the NBA on tnt starring charles barkley, kenny smith, etc. And most people think the latter is one of the best shows on sports haha.
Not Spaceghost
Spaceghost
When I saw the "frame trap" wake up ultra followed by ex DP I literally laughed out loud.
You can argue that the better player lost, hell he managed to adapt to this chaos storm during the 2nd set, but after losing again he just lost all composure. Can't really blame him, this stuff gets to your head fast in fighting games.
Poor Rufus.
You can argue that the better player lost, hell he managed to adapt to this chaos storm during the 2nd set, but after losing again he just lost all composure. Can't really blame him, this stuff gets to your head fast in fighting games.
Poor Rufus.
MikeBreezy92
Member
If the dude was upset at the loss, Its understandable why he didn't handshake the guy. Good Sportsmanship or not.
Idk why this match is highlighted though.....shame dude is getting this much attention over something that happens all the time.
Idk why this match is highlighted though.....shame dude is getting this much attention over something that happens all the time.