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[miDnIghtEr20C]

Oh man. My buddy Onslaught X is going to have some splaining to do now. Hope he's ok with this. Some of my buddies had such problems with Ryse choosing the way they chose.

 

[Ashes]

They only thing we know for sure is that we don't know.

Maybe they could have gone with 1080p and 4xMSAA and keep a stable 30fps but they decided not to.
Maybe using 4xMSAA at 1080p meant having 25fps all the time.

We don't know. People need to stop trying to pass what they think as the truth.

I think it's fairly reasonable to assume 4xMSAA at 1080p would come with a hefty performance cost. Maybe you don't. And that's okay. But ball park performances from other games tend to support the former than the latter. I mean it already does with at x800. So it's hard to argue against this to be honest.

 

[kinggroin]

I think it's fairly reasonable to assume 4xMSAA at 1080p would come with a hefty performance cost. Maybe you don't. And that's okay. But ball park performances from other games tend to support the former than the latter.

Agreed.

I'm going to assume that of they want full 1080p, they'll have to drop to fxaa or something similar in order to keep the framerate stable

 

[Lord Error]

i want to make a survival game with a 9:16 screen ratio so it's like a survivor is filming it on an iphone

Let's not pretend that a bunch of vertical scrolling shmups doesn't already operate at that kind of aspect ratio. But no, I mean that could not have possibly be a design decision.

 

[andycapps]

I've got a problem with the giant black bars displayed. Not with the FOV. Is that so hard to understand for some of you here?

You can't get the FOV that they're looking for without either introducing black bars, or insisting that their audience all buy screens that are 2.35:1 ratio.

If the latter were the case, I think we need to update that old comic of the true cost of buying a next gen console from last cycle. You know, buying the console, but then needing a fancy TV to plug it into, but then you need to buy a house first, etc.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Seems like it. I was just poking fun at the developers saying it isn't a performance issue by comparing what mediocre hardware affords them rather than what could be done with higher specs.

People are too caught up on which one came first the performance boost or aspect ratio.
If we go by there concept art it looks like they always wanted 2.40:1 and that is done rather early in game development .
Either way it don't matter what hardware they one they will always get a performance boost with that aspect ratio .

 

[Muppet of a Man]

Not sure what the outcry is for, I thought the dev clearly admitted the (perf) cost for doing MSAA at the full resolution ..

This. They need to get the performance benefit tradeoff of the lower resolution to make their cinematic vision a reality, which is fine; it just so happened a wide FOV cinemascope presentation kills these 2 birds with one stone.

 

[EGM1966]

Who knew letterbox format was more contentious than frame rate or resolution or game-play or graphics effects?

I sure didn't. Amazing. This thread has really devolved into feature whining and feature begging on a huge scale.

 

[highrider]

I dunno. It doesn't bother me but then I'm biased because the game is so appealing to me. I understand people not liking the black bars regardless of the reason for it.

 

[nOoblet16]

I think it's fairly reasonable to assume 4xMSAA at 1080p would come with a hefty performance cost. Maybe you don't. And that's okay. But ball park performances from other games tend to support the former than the latter. I mean it already does with at x800. So it's hard to argue against this to be honest.

1080p 4*MSAA maybe, but I suppose they could pull of 1080p with 2*MSAA
They did say that the performance advantage is a side benefit but it isn't anything too crucial.

Dropping down to 1920*800 will give them an additional performance of 14% tops, and if they are going for a wider FOV than normal (which seems to me that they are) then that will mitigate that 14% gain by some percentage. Of course MSAA causes exponential increase in performance hit with increase in resolution due to memory and fillrate usage, so that's one thing.

 

[Ricky_R]

Roughly 25% of the screen is going to be black pixels. I would call that "giant" yes.

Just imagine that your TV screen is vertically smaller now.

 

[twobear]

Let's not pretend that a bunch of vertical scrolling shmups doesn't already operate at that kind of aspect ratio. But no, I mean that could not have possibly be a design decision.

i hadn't even thought of that

i'm quite serious though, i think it would be cool

 

[dEvAnGeL]

Game looks ace so far, sucks I can't get in to it due to the black bars, good for those who can, couldn't get in to dragons dogma for the same reason and people said that game was great

 

[velociraptor]

i do think that from now on instead of dropping to 900p developers should just go to 1920x800, since you get 1:1 pixel mapping out of it.

Black bars isn't going to work for every game.

Being a third person shooter, I don't think it will be an issue, especially if the game is HUDless.

 

[velociraptor]

They only thing we know for sure is that we don't know.

Maybe they could have gone with 1080p and 4xMSAA and keep a stable 30fps but they decided not to.
Maybe using 4xMSAA at 1080p meant having 25fps all the time.
One thing we know is that they're using a Forward+ engine, so MSAA is less demanding than if they were to use a deferred one.

We don't know. People need to stop trying to pass what they think as the truth.

Maybe they should drop 4xMSAA to get 60FPS.

 

[Lord Error]

From what you're saying, it's exactly that.
Shifting your sample points by (±1/4, ∓1/4)pixel for odd/even frames and using the previous frame for anti-aliasing has the exact same effect as 2xSGSSAA for still images, but without the big framerate hit.
Not jittering your sample points means that for still images, consecutive samples are identical, negating any anti-aliasing effect. In any case care must taken to avoid ghosting, i.e false afterimages during movement.
More info: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=757355

You should probably check out the game when you have a chance. I can tell that AA is there even when not moving, it's not completely absent. If the jitter is something relatively basic and well documented, people working on this AA solution would know about it.

 

[DieH@rd]

Maybe they should drop 4xMSAA to get 60FPS.

MSAA is not such processing-intensive effect. Shutting it off would give them nice boost, but nothing close to 30>60fps jump.

 

[twobear]

Black bars isn't going to work for every game.

Being a third person shooter, I don't think it will be an issue, especially if the game is HUDless.

ironically it probably would have worked really well for ryse

oh well crytek you know what to do for ryse 2

 

[nib95]

Just a reminder of how the game will look with the black bars. Bare in mind, RAD have said the visuals have since been improved.

 

[TronLight]

I think it's fairly reasonable to assume 4xMSAA at 1080p would come with a hefty performance cost. Maybe you don't. And that's okay. But ball park performances from other games tend to support the former than the latter. I mean it already does with at x800. So it's hard to argue against this to be honest.

I do indeed think that 4xMSAA at 1080p would cost more than 1920*800 with 4xMSAA. Saying otherwise would be idiotic.
But, as I said, they're using a new kind of engine, let alone a self-developed one, so comparing it to other engines it's not really accurate.

Maybe they should drop 4xMSAA to get 60FPS.

4xMSAA is not eating 30fps alone.

 

[FullMetaltech]

Just a reminder of how the game will look with the black bars. Bare in mind, RAD have said the visuals have since been improved.

Never noticed those claw marks on the girl. But the cinematic approach for the game works well in those pics. Id like them to keep th eoriginal vision if the game can look this good.

 

[BKK]

Apparently there will be a "Bezel Edition" for those who can't stand black bars. It comes inclusive with a pair of plastic stick-on TV bezel extensions.

 

[Ashes]

Just a reminder of how the game will look with the black bars. Bare in mind, RAD have said the visuals have since been improved.

This game looks so beautiful. I'm glad the black bars don't affect me. Of course I'm not seeing what the devs are seeing, but I'd opt for the increased resolution than x4MSAA.

 

[TheGreyHulk]

This game looks absolutely amazing. It's my "gears of war" for this gen. Definitely buying this. I don't mind the borders either. It looks great for a third person title

 

[Loudninja]

Man this game looks amazing and those are old pics.

 

[Sid]

Man this game looks aiming and those are old pics.

Aiming?

 

[LastNac]

This shot in particular makes me think "Wow."

 

[Loudninja]

Aiming?

Wow something weird happen haha.

Dont asked me how

 

[Krusenstern]

Just a reminder of how the game will look with the black bars. Bare in mind, RAD have said the visuals have since been improved.

This game looks damn incredible. That they can pull this off on PS4 with such good anti-aliasing, incredible. Hopefully the framerate won't suffer from it.

I also want to see the impressive physics people were talking about.

 

[nib95]

The only people I've spoken to who have seen this game running all seem to be blown away. So I'm expecting the same come February 19th. Hopefully we actually see a trailer with a nice amount of gameplay and not another teaser with snippets from cut scenes.

Some leaks before then would be awesome though (sorry RAD, I need to see this thing lol).

 

[velociraptor]

I do indeed think that 4xMSAA at 1080p would cost more than 1920*800 with 4xMSAA. Saying otherwise would be idiotic.
But, as I said, they're using a new kind of engine, let alone a self-developed one, so comparing it to other engines it's not really accurate.



4xMSAA is not eating 30fps alone.

Anecdotal but when I play games on PC, 4xMSAA halves the framerate.

 

[Terbinator]

Anecdotal but when I play games on PC, 4xMSAA halves the framerate.

Quite. Deferred rendering engines absolutely tank when MSAA is introduced.

 

[LastNac]

This and Uncharted are the reasons I wanted to go next gen.

Although, to the credit of The Order, I don't really have a lot of expectations going in. Uncharted on the other hand...

 

[velociraptor]

Quite. Deferred rendering engines absolutely tank when MSAA is introduced.

This was especially the case with Battlefield 3/4.

 

[HTupolev]

You can't get the FOV that they're looking for without either introducing black bars, or insisting that their audience all buy screens that are 2.35:1 ratio.

That is just plain wrong.

Within the confines of perspective projection, there is no such thing as a horizontal FoV that you can do at 2.4:1 but not at 16:9 (or even 4:3, or 1:1).

 

[velociraptor]

This shot in particular makes me think "Wow."

It looks like the best looking video game based on the shots Nib posted. If the game looks this good in motion, then wow.

 

[DoomGyver]

Wait, No multiaplayer?

I'd rather have 1080p and no AA. Black bars suck.

 

[Nafai1123]

This was especially the case with Battlefield 3/4.

Which is why MSAA isn't going anywhere. They specifically developed Forward+ rendering so they can do MSAA and deferred without a huge performance hit.

 

[anexanhume]

This shot in particular makes me think "Wow."

Dat volumetric lighting.

 

[Krusenstern]

Wait, No multiaplayer?

I'd rather have 1080p and no AA. Black bars suck.

You know you just summed up the whole thread with your comment.

 

[Loudninja]

Wait, No multiaplayer?

I'd rather have 1080p and no AA. Black bars suck.

No AA?

 

[VanWinkle]

My point was just mischievous more than anything.
But I don't see why people keep misrepresenting what I'm saying.

If they like 4xMSAA, then why don't they apply it at 1920x1080? They can't because of performance issue, isn't it?

No, they couldn't do the game they have now at 1080p with 4xMSAA. But that isn't the point. They didnt design the game aroubd the amount of AA they wanted. They chose to make a game with black bars for a more cinematic look, and BECAUSE THEY CHOSE THAT, they have extra power to put to other things, like 4xMSAA.

 

[Krusenstern]

No AA?

It's funny. The game in it's current state would probably look cleaner than in 1080p with no AA.

 

[nib95]

Wait, No multiaplayer?

I'd rather have 1080p and no AA. Black bars suck.

Madness. No AA would look horrible, and totally break the immersion factor and graphical fidelity they're going for. Jaggies are among the most annoying of IQ issues imo.

 

[Nafai1123]

It's funny. The game in it's current state would probably look cleaner than in 1080p with no AA.

The game WILL look significantly cleaner than 1080p with no AA. In either case you're getting a pixel matched image. 1080p without AA would look identical to 1920x800 without AA in terms of IQ.

 

[DigitalDevilSummoner]

Just a reminder of how the game will look with the black bars. Bare in mind, RAD have said the visuals have since been improved.

Love what I'm seeing. The cinematic aspect ratio, the image fidelity, the absence of MP.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

Wait, No multiaplayer?

I'd rather have 1080p and no AA. Black bars suck.

No. Jaggies suck more.

 

[Cyborg]

My main concern is the lenght of the game.....

 

[ScepticMatt]

If the jitter is something relatively basic and well documented, people working on this AA solution would know about it.

.AA development is an ongoing process, and this is just another component that needs to be addressed when using TAA.
For example, not too long ago, Crysis 2's use of TAA -simple frame blending- caused horrible ghosting artifacts

Now, Crytek have improved their TAA algorithm, and used them to great effect in Ryse (SMAA 1Tx)

Now if I'd set my hopes really high, Ready at Dawn / Sony Santa Monica go crazy and combine 4xTAA with 4xMSAA - So 16 AA samples in total - and analytical AA on top to achieve better-than-downsampling image quality.

 

[Novan Leon]

I'm one of those people who were very disappointed about the lack of multiplayer, since that's where I spend most of my time in TPS/FPS games. That said, I have an open mind. If they can make the single player experience as fun and compelling as a game like Batman: Arkham City, Deus Ex: Human Revolution or The Last of Us, I'll be satisfied. On the other hand, if they opt for the Gears of War/Michael Bay/bullet-hell/shoot-everything-in-sight route then I'll pass.