Support NeoGAF

[ash_ag]

No kidding.

That was part of the impetus behind including Miis in the first place, if the old digital event announcement is to be believed.

I've noticed a couple times when Sakurai has been asked about characters like Segata Sanshiro or Reggie on air or in an interview, he sounds a bit disappointed that he has to explain that Mii Fighters are there to serve that purpose. I think Mii Fighters aren't properly appreciated by players, and on one hand I get that, since they aren't useable online in the modes most people play. But on the other hand, there's a lot of work out into them, and I think they turned out quite nice for what they are.

Frankly, if a Mii Fighters online mode, or perhaps a Customization-On online mode has been in the game, some of the more 'out there' requests would vanish. More importantly, it would make it easier to appreciate some of the more interesting features in the game, even if said metagame wasn't completely balanced.

 

[NinjaCoachZ]

Would look weird on the CSS.

Ryu and Ryu.

Don't most of the DOA games call him "Hayabusa" anyway?

 

[HeroR]

Which is why I said nitpick. It's more of me not liking avatar characters in fire emblem series.
I never played animal crossing and don't have a problem with it, but I did play awakening and it's pointless to have avatar since they are pre-written.

Funny that I have the opposite opinion. Robin is pre-written, but enough is left blank so you can fill in the holes and create your own head-canon. Seemed to have work since overall Robin is a popular character, especially female Robin.

I don't see either Robin or Corrin getting cut unless in the next few years we see another magical swordsman and dragon changing swordsman. It is obvious since Ike didn't get the boot that they just don't through away a character once they become outdated.

 

[HeroR]

I've noticed a couple times when Sakurai has been asked about characters like Segata Sanshiro or Reggie on air or in an interview, he sounds a bit disappointed that he has to explain that Mii Fighters are there to serve that purpose. I think Mii Fighters aren't properly appreciated by players, and on one hand I get that, since they aren't useable online in the modes most people play. But on the other hand, there's a lot of work out into them, and I think they turned out quite nice for what they are.

Frankly, if a Mii Fighters online mode, or perhaps a Customization-On online mode has been in the game, some of the more 'out there' requests would vanish. More importantly, it would make it easier to appreciate some of the more interesting features in the game, even if said metagame wasn't completely balanced.

You can use Miis online, you just can't used them on random. You can used them on any other online feature like with friends and even tournaments.

Seriously, why do people forget this detail?

 

[Illucio]

Relevant

 

[ffdgh]

You can use Miis online, you just can't used them on random. You can used them on any other online feature like with friends and even tournaments.

Seriously, why do people forget this detail?

I don't think it's so much forgotten than it is completely asinine miis are so limited online compared to other games that let you use them without issue.

 

[HeroR]

I don't think it's so much forgotten than it is completely asinine miis are so limited online compared to other games that let you use them without issue.

I can understand why they are more strict when it comes to a fighting game. Also, most people who play Smash online do it against friends. Few play random given how limited it is.

 

[DecoReturns]

Funny that I have the opposite opinion. Robin is pre-written, but enough is left blank so you can fill in the holes and create your own head-canon. Seemed to have work since overall Robin is a popular character, especially female Robin.

I don't see either Robin or Corrin getting cut unless in the next few years we see another magical swordsman and dragon changing swordsman. It is obvious since Ike didn't get the boot that they just don't through away a character once they become outdated.

they used the memory lost trick to have holes.

Spoiler

Especially because he never recovers his memory

I would have loved it more if the choices you make had actual consequences. To bad it leads to only a single sentence of dialouge change

 

[HeroR]

they used the memory lost trick to have holes.

Spoiler

Especially because he never recovers his memory

I would have loved it more if the choices you make had actual consequences. To bad it leads to only a single sentence of dialouge change

I do agree with that. Awakening had a lot of false choices where your decisions didn't matter outside of who you bred with. Although, I did have fun imagining backstories for Robin.

I think Fates fixed a lot of those issues, but I am not sure. On media blackout for that game.

 

[DecoReturns]

I do agree with that. Awakening had a lot of false choices where your decisions didn't matter outside of who you bred with. Although, I did have fun imagining backstories for Robin.

I think Fates fixed a lot of those issues, but I am not sure. On media blackout for that game.

Same here. Except I caved and listen to the music. Love me Fire Emblem Music.

 

[ash_ag]

I can understand why they are more strict when it comes to a fighting game. Also, most people who play Smash online do it against friends. Few play random given how limited it is.

My guess is that the opposite is true. I don't have any hard stats, but aside from the more hardcore competitive cycles, I think most people play With Anyone.

Somehow, I don't think the ability to use custom moves (or lack thereof) on the With Anyone mode has to do with strictness. It's just that it would be a hard-line for a good number of people, and they would probably have to create a separate mode as a result. It's possible they may not have wanted to make the matchmaking process longer by creating more modes.

 

[Nightbird]

The issue with that is that Sakurai considered doing the same with Dr. Mario but decided against it because he feared that fans of Dr. Mario would be pissed. It'd be either Lucina being playable or not in the game at all.

Wasn't the actual reason that there were some slight differences in stats?
I'm pretty sure I read that Dr. Mario, Dark Pit and Lucina were all costumes at some point, but since they were not 100% copies they got an own slot. Wich is why Alph stayed a costume: he never got some Stat changes.

I don't remember in Wich Thread this was discussed, but I do remember multiple members suggesting that Alph should have used rock pikmins so he could have an own slot

 

[Masked Man]

I wouldn't have minded if Snake gotCloud is an iconic FF character, but one can't help but wonder why they didn't choose a classic Final Fantasy character (FFVI or earlier) who actually appeared on one of their consoles... or Crono.

Sakurai said during the Direct that Cloud has consistently received the most requests of all FF characters, so his inclusion makes perfect sense.

The problem with Crono, however, is one of the same ones that plagues Goku: rights. Crono was designed by Toriyama, who also does all the character designs for Dragon Quest. Involving either franchise in Smash would mean going through Toriyama's office and involving his lawyers, so I imagine Sakurai didn't want to be bothered—or Crono falls into the category of "non-negotiable."

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Wasn't the actual reason that there were some slight differences in stats?
I'm pretty sure I read that Dr. Mario, Dark Pit and Lucina were all costumes at some point, but since they were not 100% copies they got an own slot. Wich is why Alph stayed a costume: he never got some Stat changes.

I don't remember in Wich Thread this was discussed, but I do remember multiple members suggesting that Alph should have used rock pikmins so he could have an own slot

Alph is actually a little sadder than just remaining an alt. He started his life as a planned clone. Clones planned from the start of development have traditionally been semi-clones, so Alph would have been Olimar's version of Lucas, likely. Probably similar specials, but different animations for basically everything else. And Rock Pikmin instead of whites and purples.

For Lucina, he says there were "minor gameplay differences" but that's silly since the gameplay changes were made up. The only different inherent to Lucina's model is he slightly less height, but thus far nobody has actually been able to show a situation where this matters at all (people have tested and while her hitbox is in fact a smidge shorter, in practice it will never ever matter). So she could have had Marth's hitboxes and been fine, despite being ever so slightly shorter. I think Lucina was likely made a clone because she's ultra popular and works better as a full character in Smash due to her popularity, but he's never mentioned that reason.

Doc became what he is due to not wanting to insult Doc fans from Melee. People liked playing as Doc in Melee, and downgrading him to a costume would be lame for those fans. Doc also just has too many built in unique attributes to be an alt. Anyone who has played Melee would likely find it a little jarring to see his pills roll around on the ground like Fire Balls. I know I do when I play Project M.

Dark Pit was because Pit's Final Smash makes no sense on Dark Pit. And because they already modeled the Electroarm, so they figured it'd be useful to use. But then you have to question, well what about the Koopalings and Alph and their Final Smash? Well, he's never mentioned any of that. Alph's mostly just needs to use his ship and it'd be fine, but the Koopalings are kind of trapped. But whatever.

http://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/07/09/i-answer-some-questions-sakurai-famitsu-column-vol-461-464/

 

[mrmickfran]

ew at Corrin's reason being promotion when Elma is so much more deserving.

Given Sakurai's previous track record, I wouldn't be surprised if he included (MAJOR XENOBLADE X SPOILERS)

Spoiler

Elma's true form

as an alternate costume.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Character from a popular series with a recently released game also being released later on in the US?

Who else could they have possibly picked?

Oh...

 

[ffdgh]

Character from a popular series with a recently released game also being released later on in the US?

Who else could they have possibly picked?

Oh...

Smash 4 Now with:

Mario Mario
Green Mario
"Evil" Mario
Doctor Mario
And now...Paper Mario! Final smash is Super Nova!

Plus Shadow Mario as a final smash cameo instead of an alt because reasons /s

 

[Mr-Joker]

Pacman should've skipped out on this one. Klonoa is far more interesting

Nah Pac-Man is more iconic and has a bigger history in video game than Klonoa.

That said, Klonoa should have been DLC, I mean Capcom and Sega has two reps so why not Namco?

 

[Neoxon]

Nah Pac-Man is more iconic and has a bigger history in video game than Klonoa.

That said, Klonoa should have been DLC, I mean Capcom and Sega has two reps so why not Namco?

We probably would have gotten Heihachi or Jin before Klonoa. We did almost get Heihachi in the first place.

 

[Crocodile]

Ok I'm sorry balladofwindfishes, you're usually great in the Smash threads but your "issues" with Corrin read more like personal salt than poignant observations.

*Corrin is more boring than Robin*
"Corrin is too many FE character!"
*wants to add 4513513th Mario character*

jenniferlawerenceok.gif

ew at Corrin's reason being promotion when Elma is so much more deserving.

I mean if XBX was releasing early next year you'd have a point but I think its clear they wanted this DLC to drop at the same time the game it was promoting would in some regions of the world. The launch window of XBX would have already passed.

 

[Muchi Muchi Pink]

We probably would have gotten Heihachi or Jin before Klonoa. We did almost get Heihachi in the first place.

I'd rather have a Gundam than Klonoa.

 

[Chastten]

Sooo.. who is John Cena?

 

[Vital Tundra]

Seeing as Corrin is an advertisement with a unique moveset, I can see them dropping Lucina as her own character and Roy in Smash 5. Having 4 unique FE characters in 5 would be a-okay with me. Any more in the game at launch is pushing it. The rest of the DLC characters will probably stay.

 

[ffdgh]

Seeing as Corrin is an advertisement with a unique moveset, I can see them dropping Lucina as her own character and Roy in Smash 5. Having 4 unique FE characters in 5 would be a-okay with me. Any more in the game at launch is pushing it. The rest of the DLC characters will probably stay.

Lucina I could potentially see. They aren't touching Roy.

 

[Kinsei]

Sooo.. who is John Cena?

A WWE wrestler.

 

[Crayolan]

For people genuinely thinking Goku and John Cena aren't terrible choices, I'm pretty sure Sakurai has already said he can't add characters that didn't originate in video games. He's even given Spongebob as an example of a character which has been requested before which can never be in the game. The smash ballot also specified video game characters only.

I have no idea why choices which have been laughed at for over a decade are suddenly being taken seriously, I guess Cloud really threw people off or something.

 

[NinjaCoachZ]

For people genuinely thinking Goku and John Cena aren't terrible choices, I'm pretty sure Sakurai has already said he can't add characters that didn't originate in video games. He's even given Spongebob as an example of a character which has been requested before which can never be in the game. The smash ballot also specified video game characters only.

I have no idea why choices which have been laughed at for over a decade are suddenly being taken seriously, I guess Cloud really threw people off or something.

Yeah, I dunno if it was just ironic shitposting or not, but the fact that there were posts actually trying to rationalize Goku as a potential character addition in some of the recent topics was fucking bizarre.

 

[Yukinari]

Ok I'm sorry balladofwindfishes, you're usually great in the Smash threads but your "issues" with Corrin read more like personal salt than poignant observations.

*Corrin is more boring than Robin*
"Corrin is too many FE character!"
*wants to add 4513513th Mario character*

I dont think Corrin has a boring moveset at all, but you have to be crazy to not understand why people dont like so many FE characters. I dont believe FE should have as many reps as Zelda, Mario or Pokemon. Mario is Nintendo's main franchise and the namesake of Smash Bros, of course its gonna have the most representation.

 

[Ryce]

It's worth noting that each new Fire Emblem game has a brand new cast of characters, so while it isn't a major franchise in the vein of Mario or Zelda, it's hard to properly represent the ever-changing nature of the series without adding new characters. Mario, Link, Donkey Kong, Kirby, Samus, and so on have been the faces of their respective franchises for decades, but Fire Emblem isn't so static.

 

[Finale Fireworker]

You know, I've been part of Smash threads and forums for fifteen years. Smashboards, Nsider, Reddit, NeoGAF, whatever. I've always been there for the prerelease, the launch, and the prolonged post mortems.

And now, after fifteen year, I can't go into a Smash Bros thread without reading "Goku" on the page. Never, in all my time, has this gag character been so prevailing of a meme that he has generated a legitimate fan following. Never has conversation about his inclusion gotten so much traction. Never has his name, joking or not, been as much of a presence as it is now on NeoGAF.

And this sickens me.

This will be detailed far more extensively in my suicide note.

 

[ffdgh]

Eh I see it as FE has made a comeback after almost being canned so it gets some extra love.

Mario already has 7 reps. 11 if you include the extended series characters. 17 if the koopalings are counted. 18...for Luma lol
Zelda has everyone they need aside from Tetra/toon zelda, Impa, and maybe Ganon
Pokemon is....tough Aside from Pika, Jiggly, Mewtwo and Lucario since it's a flavor of the month sort of thing.

 

[Minister of the Dog]

I voted for Travis Touchdown, I'm curious to see if he ever had a chance.

 

[bobbychalkers]

I voted for Travis Touchdown, I'm curious to see if he ever had a chance.

Definitely more of a chance than Goku ever did but not likely. Suda 51 hasn't even been with the publisher that owns the series for a while.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

*wants to add 4513513th Mario character*

Mario only has one additional character over Fire Emblem.

One of the most important series in all of gaming only has one additional rep over a series that was on its deathbed just one game ago and even then, the saving game of the series only had the same sales as a mediocre Paper Mario game.

"Corrin is too many FE character!"

Which is something even Sakurai has said he was concerned about

*Corrin is more boring than Robin*

Robin is more or less the perfect Fire Emblem rep with weapon degradation and a varied move set between magic and sword use. That's more interesting to me than stretchy limbs and sticking people to the stage.

 

[Ryce]

Mario only has one additional character over Fire Emblem.

One of the most important series in all of gaming only has one additional rep over a series that was on its deathbed just one game ago and even then, the saving game of the series only had the same sales as a mediocre Paper Mario game.

You're talking about the game where Mother has as many characters as Animal Crossing and Wii Fit combined. There is a lot more to character selection than sales.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

You're talking about the game where Mother has as many characters as Animal Crossing and Wii Fit combined. There is a lot more to character selection than sales.

But overall, the largest series have traditionally had the largest rosters in Smash (Mario, Pokemon and Zelda).

It's not totally proportional, especially on the smaller series (Mother wouldn't even have a rep at all if it was purely sales), but most of the time it works out roughly that way.

 

[Draxal]

But overall, the largest series have traditionally had the largest rosters in Smash (Mario, Pokemon and Zelda).

It's not totally proportional, especially on the smaller series (Mother wouldn't even have a rep at all if it was purely sales), but most of the time it works out roughly that way.

The largest series have weird issues.

1. DK = the rare issue so Rare created characters have issues getting in.
2. Metroid = The character with the best chance of getting in is another variation of Samus (Dak Samus).
3. Zelda = The triforce issue, the three main characters representing the triforce have to get in, it's after that where it gets really contentious (I'd say Impa has the best shot of getting in, but variations of triforce chars like Tetra/fem link/Linkle/Pig Dorf are requested candidates as well).
4. Mario = Well represented and diverse, I'd say Toad is the big missing one now, also characters like Wario, DK and Yoshi are technically not Mario chars anymore but are still considered Mario characters by a lot of people.

Fire Emblem is most similiar to Pokemon in that the roster of characters available in both universes are gigantic.

 

[Jawmuncher]

I wonder how sakurai sleeps at night with all those cut characters.

 

[Ryce]

1. DK = the rare issue so Rare created characters have issues getting in.

That's not true. Nintendo has complete ownership of the entire DK cast.

 

[Draxal]

That's not true. Nintendo has complete ownership of the entire DK cast.

They completely own it but there's definitely an aversion to putting those character in as there's no way Dixie should be sitting out for this long. I'm not a King K Rool crazy like Gonzo, but if De De De got in, I don't think K Rool is out of the question as well.

 

[Mr-Joker]

I think Mii Fighters aren't properly appreciated by players, and on one hand I get that, since they aren't useable online in the modes most people play. But on the other hand, there's a lot of work out into them, and I think they turned out quite nice for what they are.

I don't care for Mii fighters as I find them to be boring.

I mean why would I want to play as myself or a poorly design fake character? When the smash roster has better and more exciting characters.

 

[PrinceOfWhatever]

So did an unrealizable and not negotiable character actually win?

Oh well, at least I got Sceptile in Pokken.

Son Goku man! I really want to know how many votes he got.

 

[Neoxon]

I don't care for Mii fighters as I find them to be boring.

I mean why would I want to play as myself or a poorly design fake character? When the smash roster has better and more exciting characters.

Because the Miis represent the Wii era of games (Wii Sports, Wii Play, etc.) as well as other Mii-oriented games such as Tomodachi Life. And even then, the Miis have taken on a life of their own beyond the Wii branding that spawned them.

 

[Ryce]

They completely own it but there's definitely an aversion to putting those character in as there's no way Dixie should be sitting out for this long. I'm not a King K Rool crazy like Gonzo, but if De De De got in, I don't think K Rool is out of the question as well.

Sakurai wanted to include a Diddy and Dixie tag team in Brawl, so I doubt he has something against Rare.

 

[batfax]

Pacman should've skipped out on this one. Klonoa is far more interesting

Honestly, I think the ballot may be why we got the Gilgamesh costume. Tower of Druaga has a bit of a history in Japan and it's arcade scene, so I could see him faring pretty decently in the Japanese ballots. He'd probably one of the worst choices for a full character though, since he doesn't have a lot of distinctive abilities and if they included how treasure/equipment upgrades worked from the original game it might get... really odd to play as him.

 

[Yukinari]

Pacman should've skipped out on this one. Klonoa is far more interesting

A character whos remake sold like shit on the wii and literally has a hat with Pac-Man on it so that people know who made him.

Yeah its obvious why they picked Pac-Man.

 

[Nightbird]

It's worth noting that each new Fire Emblem game has a brand new cast of characters, so while it isn't a major franchise in the vein of Mario or Zelda, it's hard to properly represent the ever-changing nature of the series without adding new characters. Mario, Link, Donkey Kong, Kirby, Samus, and so on have been the faces of their respective franchises for decades, but Fire Emblem isn't so static.

If only more people would understand this.

Fire Emblem has the highest amount of Characters that can be added to Smash Bros besides Pokemon

 

[Green Mamba]

They completely own it but there's definitely an aversion to putting those character in as there's no way Dixie should be sitting out for this long. I'm not a King K Rool crazy like Gonzo, but if De De De got in, I don't think K Rool is out of the question as well.

I think it's safe to say Sakurai just doesn't give a shit about Donkey Kong. Or, alternatively, Dixie just felt though the cracks--Tropical Freeze was too new at the time of SSB4's roster planning. I wouldn't be surprised to see her missing in SSB5 either, as Tropical Freeze will be too old at the time and not impactful enough for her to matter. She'll fall into bad timing oblivion, a fate that they only seem concerned about preventing from happening to Fire Emblem characters, because they'll never run out of excuses for them.

But at least Dixie has the chance of appearing in her series again, even if I were willing to bet dollars to donuts that the series is going on hiatus after Tropical Freeze. Think about poor Dark Samus who had SSB4 as her only actual shot into Smash, as she's not coming back to Metroid ever again. But it's not like they seem to care much about Metroid either, too much time wasted on making an incredibly tone deaf appeasement to Ridley fans I guess.

 

[foxuzamaki]

You know, I've been part of Smash threads and forums for fifteen years. Smashboards, Nsider, Reddit, NeoGAF, whatever. I've always been there for the prerelease, the launch, and the prolonged post mortems.

And now, after fifteen year, I can't go into a Smash Bros thread without reading "Goku" on the page. Never, in all my time, has this gag character been so prevailing of a meme that he has generated a legitimate fan following. Never has conversation about his inclusion gotten so much traction. Never has his name, joking or not, been as much of a presence as it is now on NeoGAF.

And this sickens me.

This will be detailed far more extensively in my suicide note.

Oh my

 

[Ryce]

She'll fall into bad timing oblivion, a fate that they only seem concerned about preventing from happening to Fire Emblem characters, because they'll never run out of excuses for them.

It's not an excuse. Fire Emblem has incredibly fortuitous timing relative to Smash Bros.

Roy was included in Melee as a last minute clone right before The Binding Blade was set to release.

Brawl's planning document was finalized two months after the release of Path of Radiance. Intelligent Systems told Sakurai that Ike was going to appear in Radiant Dawn as well, making him a very sensible inclusion.

Smash 4's planning document was finalized a week after the release of Awakening.

The release of Fates coincides perfectly with the Smash 4 DLC schedule.

Donkey Kong just isn't in a comparable situation. Donkey Kong Country Returns was the only main DK game released between Brawl and Smash 4's planning periods, and its main characters, Donkey and Diddy, are already in Smash Bros. Sakurai probably didn't find out about Tropical Freeze until 2013, which is why it only has songs and trophy rips from the E3 2013 demo.