That looks substantially better thank you!
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120/144Hz Thread of Lightboosting Pixel Perfect Headshots
- Thread starter mkenyon
- Start date
That looks substantially better thank you!
The vast majority of (3D) games on PC, even console ports, aren't FPS locked.
Fried Food
Banned
mdrejhon, can you explain to folks that you don't necessarily need to FPS match the refresh rate, when using lightboost(or otherwise?), in order to get some benefit from a lightboosted monitor.
I feel that some people are frightened away by the notion of having to run a game at 120 fps.
I feel that some people are frightened away by the notion of having to run a game at 120 fps.
It's like an eye massage though. Have a big 60hz display at work, and when I go home and boot up my 120Hz displays, it's like putting a pair of comfy slippers on.
You know you want to.
I'm new be nice
Member
240hz, holy shit. The human eye can see at about 400hz right? So we are now half way there if that's the case.
G-Sync will be perfect for you then. I've seen it in person (and made sure it was a proper comparison).
Personally for me diminishing return starts kicking in around 90Hz with slight differences to 120Hz. This is with a non LightBoost display (I've tried the Samsung S23A750D tweaks and it did not seem to make a difference).
AuthenticM
Member
I guess I will get one of these monitors once I'm done with school.
mdrejhon
Member
I give you the TestUFO Panning Map Challenge. Adjust the speed at the top. What is the fastest map panning speed you can still read the street name labels on? I can read map labels at about 3840 pixels/second on my LightBoost=10%, and about 1920 pixels/second at LightBoost=100% or on EIZO FG2421. How big is your score on the Panning Map Test?
Oh, a question to mdrejhon:
Can you check out Diablo 2 on the FG2421 and give impressions? Older 2D games like that just can't hack it on a regular monitor, I remember the game staying perfectly sharp while scrolling on my CRT.
So I am curious how far lightboost or the Eizo solution goes to get back that old clean 2D panning.
Can you check out Diablo 2 on the FG2421 and give impressions? Older 2D games like that just can't hack it on a regular monitor, I remember the game staying perfectly sharp while scrolling on my CRT.
So I am curious how far lightboost or the Eizo solution goes to get back that old clean 2D panning.
Lightboost feels like a return to CRT days. I was loathe to give up a Samsung CRT that ran at 90Hz, as I'm a longtime twitch FPS guy. I can't tell you about Diablo 2 in specific, but I can tell you it makes Quake, Warsow, and Tribes: Ascend look and feel amazing. It literally improved my game.
mdrejhon
Member
Wrong, buddy
Sadly, no -- even 1000Hz is not yet enough to pass the "wow, I didn't know I was standing in Holodeck" test for average human vision. Wagonwheel effects. Mousedropping effects. Strobe effects (some people still hate 360Hz PWM dimming backlights, and fixing motion blur only works at 1 strobe flash per refresh). Even faint motion blur can still occur. And many other reasons. See below for further explanations why 240Hz is woefully low for Holodeck.
It doesn't work that way. It's very dependant on lots of variables.
Vision researchers found situations where they kept seeing motion blur at 1000fps@1000Hz, so the limit doesn't stop there when the variables are set to ideal values. Some manufacturers make displays for vision researchers (vpixx.com has a true-500Hz monochrome projector for vision researchers, and there are others). So this science is already being done. Also see Why Do We Need 1000fps@1000Hz This Century? for some educational information.
Even at best case scenario (framerates matching refresh rate), things make it easier to see motion blur at ever-higher refresh rates, such as:
- Games have faster panning speeds;
- Closer viewing distances;
- Bigger field of view;
- Higher resolutions (4K motion blur is currently really bad);
Persistence is more important, because CRT 60fps@60Hz has less motion blur than non-strobed LCD 120fps@120Hz. This is because CRT had less persistence than LCD (until recently -- when strobe backlights arrived). John Carmacks also talks about persistence, and NVIDIA also talks about persistence. Also persistence is not transition time -- persistence is different from GtG -- persistence is pixel visibility time, and persistence accounts for strobe backlights, while GtG does not. Now that persistence accurately describes tracking-based motion blur, there's a very simple law that Blur Busters has discovered:
Blur Busters Law: 1 millisecond of persistence creates 1 pixel of motion blurring during 1000 pixels/second.
Examples (motion tests at TestUFO):
2ms persistence & 2000 pixels/second = 4 pixels of motion blur during motion test at framerate=Hz
0.5ms persistence & 3000 pixels/second = 6 pixels of motion blur during motion test at framerate=Hz
However, I'm not the first to study this. Tons of scientists already know this; all the complex stuff is already well documented in science papers -- sample-and-hold and MPRT -- http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=MPRT ... These are complex, but I'm able to de-mystify a lot of this stuff (and LightBoost provides a very simple scientific "see for yourself" science experiment) for everybody, people like us, a Plain English interpretation above. And vision researchers I've talked to, has agreed with the Blur Busters Law (so far) -- it's the world's most simplified link between display persistence and human-perceived motion blur (for eye-tracking-based motion). The law is uncannily accurate for squarewave persistence such as strobe backlights, DLP black frame insertion, OLED rolling scans, and other squarewave flashing occuring at one flash per refresh.
To attempt 100% flickerfree 1000Hz without strobing, your persistence can never be lower than 1ms, because persistence has a hardlimit of the full refresh cycle if the pixel is continuously visible for the whole refresh (unless GtG is longer than a refresh cycle -- like the old 33ms LCD days -- then you can have higher persistence than the refresh cycle. But it can never be lower than the length of a refresh, unless you begin strobing or otherwise light-modulating). As you track your eyes on moving objects, your eyes are in a different position at the end of a refresh than at the beginning of a refresh. If you had a 4K VR goggles strapped to your head and you turn your head, the whole scenery will pan past your face at over 4000 pixels/second, 1ms of persistence at 4000 pixels/second will create 4 pixels of motion blur. Viola. 1000Hz not enough for flickerfree PWM-free display to simultaneously be blur free.
Today, at LightBoost=10%, has 1.4ms of persistence, which is only 1.4 pixels of motion blurring at 1000 pixels/second (See photos of LightBoost=10%). That's only 1/700sec -- the same amount of motion blur as a sample-and-hold flickerfree 700fps@700Hz, since frame visibility length is the chief dictator of tracking-based motion blur (Example: www.testufo.com/eyetracking -- explains this very well. 120Hz only halves motion blur over 60Hz, then 240Hz halves motion blur again over 120Hz, and so on -- for sample-and-hold flickerfree displays. But as we keep getting bigger sizes, more resolution, more FOV, fast panning speends, the detectability thresholds keeps going up).
The bottom line is not even 1000Hz is the final frontier, since real-life is framerateless (or infinite framerate, depending on interpretation). For true holodeck emulation, with zero motion blur, and zero strobe effects, and zero wagonwheel effects, and zero GPU blur effects -- to simulatneously achieve ALL the above and be tricked "wow, I didn't know I was standing in Holodeck", you will need continuous motion with no static frames (aka infinite frame rate). That is scientifically impossible for a display, but a 1000fps@1000Hz display will get us very close to Holodeck quality. 400Hz is not remotely close. Not by a long, long, long shot.
Photographic demonstrations of Blur Busters Law (1 ms of persistence equals 1 pixel of motion blur during 1000 pixels/sec):
-- PHOTOS: 60Hz vs 120Hz vs LightBoost
-- PHOTOS: LightBoost 10% vs 50% vs 100%
The great thing is LightBoost provides a very simple "see-for-yourself" that demonstrates this very well.
I'll be sure to PM you before future threads
At least I put you in the OP though, right?
Odd. My nehalem and 5850 won't sync on my work machine. I've always thought my work PC felt more janky than my machine at home.
mdrejhon
Member
No -- see above.I'll be sure to PM you before future threads
At least I put you in the OP though, right?
It's not the final frontier. There are certain situations where even 1000Hz is not enough.
I'm new be nice
Member
Haha, wow, I see now. The human eye is more impressive than I thought! You always hear about how easily tricked it can be but I suppose when it comes to motion it's too important not to be able to see things cleanly.
I will probably never live that G-sync reaction downI'll be sure to PM you before future threads
At least I put you in the OP though, right?
Getting that and a solution to motion blur on high-quality panels from a premier manufacturer in the same year, after years of stagnation on the display market, is almost too much for me!
I don't know how you can read anything that's passing by that quickly, regardless of its clarity.
Anyways, I see what you're saying, but I really, really like the colors of an IPS and enjoy a nice, crisp, high resolution. I do more than just game on my computer.
I would love a 120hz/144hz, 1440p IPS monitor, but they don't exist and I wouldn't have a PC powerful enough to take advantage of it. I've gotta make choices.
It's because companies think the demand isn't there. Dual Link DVI has existed for a long time now.
TheFNEffecT
Member
The tech can definitely allow it if you can push for it, I got lucky that my Qnix QX2710 was able to hit 120hz with no problems whatsoever. (I also know that pretty much all dvi-only models will hit 96hz with no issue)
AFAIK I don't think you can buy any consumer grade products that are natively 120hz non-overclocked panels above 1080p, perhaps you are right to say the demand isn't there?
Get a QNIX and overclock that SOB, then again a lot of "luck" plays in on it. I was able to get mine off e-bay for $260 from greensum......1440p@120hz will absolutely spoil the hell out of you
Sleeping Lesson
Member
I don't suppose anybody else has a Yamakasi 300 Sparta monitor? I can't get the damn thing to go over 60Hz.
You have to learn to run your head quickly in sync and stay focused on a spot.
360 is my max. 60Hz IPS panel.
mdrejhon
Member
60Hz DLP without black frames -- same as 60Hz LCD
60Hz DLP with black frame insertion -- roughly same as 120Hz LCD
120Hz DLP with black frame insertion -- roughly similiar to LightBoost
(To understand how black frame insertion works, see www.testufo.com/blackframes for a low-frequency web-based animation)
The Optoma GT720 and GT750 projectors can simultaneously do 120Hz and black frame insertion. (Enabling 3D mode on those DLP's adds the black frame insertion strobing effect, but you don't need to use 3D mode -- it behaves as a 2D 120Hz mode, just like LightBoost).
Regarding the TV's, most TV's are unfortunately unable to do a motion blur reduction mode in GAME MODE, which is the big problem. The only two ways to reduce motion blur in GAME MODE without adding input lag, is (1) getting more true Hz without interpolation, and/or (2) adding a form of strobing/flicker. When you turn off all the fancy "Motionflow" stuff that adds input lag, almost all TV's act like crappy 60Hz monitors. You almost always get lots of motion blur in Game Mode on most LCD TV's. The rare exception is Sony's low-lag interpolation-free Motionflow Impulse, which actually works in Game Mode on some select Sony HDTV's. It is possible that newer panasonics (that I don't know about) have successfully added a motion-blur-reduced Game Mode, but I haven't heard yet -- please let me know if they have a "LightBoost" equivalent for their Game Mode. However, there's also an alternative way to reduce motion blur on certain HDTV's -- HDTV Refresh Rate Overclocking HOWTO: True 120Hz from PC to TV -- this is advanced stuff that is not for the faint of heart, but it instantly reduces motion blur by 50% in computer games if it successfully works on your television. Don't get your hopes sky-high; but sometimes you're lucky! And certain TV's do 120Hz reliably -- like, very specifically the Sony KDL-50R550A -- which reliably does true 120Hz from a computer with ToastyX Custom Resolution Utility -- while a lot of TV's are much, much more troublesome and frustrating. You've been warned
For TestUFO Panning Map Challenge:
3840 pixels/second is only slightly more than 1 meter per second on a typical monitor.
960 pixels/second is roughly 1 foot per second on a typical monitor.
You already are goinging faster than that:
-- When you're walking past an advertising poster.
-- When you're holding a book/newspaper with outstretched arms, and spinning in place while reading text.
-- When you're riding a bicycle quickly past a road sign
Your brain just currently disbelieves that computer monitors can actually be that crystal clear during fast motion.
Right now 960 pixels/second is super easy and relaxing to read on all strobe-backlight monitors, while 3840 pixels/second is a bit of a struggle. But not even IPS can achieve readability at 960 pixels/second... My LightBoost monitor has 92% less motion blur -- where you saw 12 pixels of motion blurring, I see only 1 pixel of motion blurring. Motion on my monitor is as clear as a piece of paper zooming by at a slow 1 foot per second -- yet you can't read text on a monitor that's moving at 1 foot per second.I bet you still can't easily read this slow-scrolling text at 60fps either: http://www.testufo.com/framerates-text
That kind of motion blur gives me a headache. It's more important than IPS-vs-TN for me.
On my strobed displays, I can even count the pixels in the letters, while they're moving at 480 pixels/second.
Yes, I hope strobed IPS arrives eventually. Then problem solved!
mdrejhon
Member
Blur Buster is working the damndest to make that false.
Manufacturers have noticed 1440p overclocking already, just like they've noticed LightBoost. DisplayPort and HDMI 2.0 makes 1080p@240Hz and 1440p@120Hz possible without needing overclocking. Wait until those connections mature. It will still take more than a year, and probably won't be strobed initially, so you might as well buy strobed 1080p now if you want CRT clarity on today's LCD's.
I'll let EIZO know. Give it some time, because 1440p VA panels aren't yet available, and 1440p isn't competitor-friendly yet (low framerates = more input lag) but that was also previously true for 1080p for a long time, and look at where we are now.
D
Deleted member 22576
Unconfirmed Member
Wow. So I just got the Asus 144hz display about 2 weeks ago. I've just been playing games at 144hz.. I just tried the map demo and couldn't read it going by at 960px a second at 144, but with lightboost on its amazingly clear.
DAMN.
DAMN.
D
Deleted member 22576
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah I just really need to properly calibrate the colors, I have no idea what I'm doing with that.
Oh man, I just noticed the flicker makes your hands all jittery if you move them in front of your face, lol.
Oh man, I just noticed the flicker makes your hands all jittery if you move them in front of your face, lol.
mdrejhon
Member
G-SYNC fixes both stutters and tearing.
G-SYNC eliminates the synchronous refresh with an asynchronous refresh -- The monitor begins refreshes immediately when a frame is ready, rather than being "rounded off" to the next refresh cycle. So the monitor can be refreshed at random time intervals. However, G-SYNC doesn't fix motion blur. There's actually a minor effect: Variable motion blur with G-SYNC; as the refresh rate gradually goes up, motion blur gradually goes down. At G-SYNC maximum framerate, motion blur is no better than a 144Hz non-strobed monitor. Only low-persistence (e.g. strobing) can fix motion blur. G-SYNC is beautiful at fixing stutters and tearing, but it still has motion blur.
The best case would be combining G-SYNC and strobing. For now, both are available (but not simultaneously) as John Carmack mentioned strobing is available in G-SYNC monitors.
G-SYNC Mode: Better for variable framerates (eliminate stutters/tearing, more blur)
Strobe Mode: Better for constant max framerates (e.g. 120fps @ 120Hz, eliminates blur)
Consoles can't output a 120Hz signal.
Okay guys I need a push, I already ordered my new PC and the final part will be the monitor, I have had my eyes on the Tempest.
IS there any reason to back out? what monitor have I not seen, it seems like this is the best one. I just want to put in an order tonight and forget about the rest.
My card is in hand, I need a push.
IS there any reason to back out? what monitor have I not seen, it seems like this is the best one. I just want to put in an order tonight and forget about the rest.
My card is in hand, I need a push.
I was hoping Eizo's method worked magic. Oh well, I'll continue using my old scuffed plasma for consoles.
Edit:
This is what I was hoping for. I'll wait for the BlurBusters review too.
You don't need 120Hz input on the Eizo for it to work. A definite upside, that's why I am curious how well Diablo 2 performs on it.
Waiting for the BlurBusters review to see how well the Eizo cleans up 60 frames and 30 frame inputs.
The Lone Courier
Member
Thanks for this OP. Cant wait to use the Asus with my new rig.
D
Deleted member 22576
Unconfirmed Member
So is there a way for the nvidia experience to adjust settings for 120fps? I've never even used that software, but it seems like it'd be useful.
Same, though I will have to settle on 1440p likely.
Stupid 16:9 ratio overlords keeping 16:10 down.
mdrejhon
Member
Most strobed monitors in the list of 120Hz monitors are now driver agnostic.
EIZO FG2421 - works on everything that can output 120Hz, strobing enabled via monitor menu
BENQ XL2720Z - works on everything that can output 120hz, strobing enabled via monitor button
LightBoost - works with desktop NVIDIA and RADEON most of the time via ToastyX Strobelight software app
D
Deleted member 22576
Unconfirmed Member
I've been spending a ton of time just turning strobing on and off to see the difference. Its so weird. I'm tripping out here. Look at my "desk!"
mdrejhon
Member
The EIZO uses an interpolation-free technique (no fake frames), so it does not make 30fps any smoother. It does reduce blur a bit for 60Hz but creates a double image effect. Doing "perfect" motion blur reduction via strobing for 60fps input without interpolation, creates a lot of flicker so manufacturers are scared of adding true one-flash-per-refresh strobing for 60Hz.
There is a software workaround, however: combining LightBoost with black frame insertion to create 60Hz strobing, by suppressing every other hardware strobe with a software black frame. This is now available to create 60Hz LightBoost or Turbo240 with MAME arcade emulator -- www.blurbusters.com/mame ... But any computer programmer can do that with any game to create true 60Hz strobing out of 120Hz strobing. Black frame insertion alone without strobe backlight only reduces 60hz motion blur by 50%, while using strobe baclklight with black frame insertion keeps the exact zero motion blur CRT efftect for 60fps material. Someone could theoretically write a driver that flickers the whole screen at 60Hz, to allow computer games to work with strobing at 60Hz. Ideally, we want true 60Hz steobing in hardware, so it works fully with consoles, despite the CRT like flicker. It is more comfortable and lovely at 120Hz though, very few people hated 100Hz+ CRTs.
The bottom line is that the Turbo240 is currently designed for computer gaming, and not for consoles...
$600 on Newegg
$600 on Newegg
I wish, no newegg in Australia, there's only one store over here that actually sells it. Even the Asus is 500, so I guess the Eizo is a pretty good price in comparison lol
Sorry, but that's stupid. I could have my CRT refresh at 100Hz and it did not care what framerate it got. Who cares that at 30 fps every picture will be displayed 4 times, I want a full 120Hz strobe.
Or am I mistunderstanding something here, at least on PC, if I set my refresh to 120Hz in driver, I will always get 120Hz strobe, no matter that Diablo 2 only runs at 30fps?
spootime
Member
Awesome thread! I got back into 120hz when I played CS 1.6 and it was necessary. Viewsonic CRT is still the best 120hz monitor I've ever used. Im still using a Samsung 2233rz that I got back when it was pretty much the only choice for LCD 120hz.
Thinking about upgrading to the VG248QE for xmas. Is it still the best bang for your buck as far as lightstrobe monitors goes?
Thinking about upgrading to the VG248QE for xmas. Is it still the best bang for your buck as far as lightstrobe monitors goes?