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[FnordChan]

Inspired by the fanboy rant from 1989, I went and poked around Google Groups myself, reading through the archive of net.games.video from 1982 to 1986. Alas, things are generally pretty level headed, with most of the discussion involving game reviews, high score discussions, and a ton of posts about the Vectrex after it hit fire sale prices. I did find a couple of tidbits to share, however.

First off, from a reply to a review of the Atari 5200 (March 1983):

Us 5200 owners will just have to suffer until Atari gets into full production and until the 5200 "proves" itself. Intellivision and Colecovision may have beaten Atari to the punch with voice synthesis, 2600 adapters and software, but in the long run the 5200 will be more popular. The Intellivision and Colecovision controllers are awful (flames to /dev/null), and only because of expense. The game units are not as solid as the 5200, either.

Ah, the new system owner desperately defending their new purchase. The best part of this little rant is the bit about the controllers. My first game system was the 5200 and I'm here to tell you that those controllers sucked uncontrollably. The non-centering design worked okay for a few games, but if you wanted to play Pac-Man, forget it. Don't get me started about the fire buttons either.

The other bit I liked was a short review of I, Robot (Aug 1984):

A new game called "I,ROBOT", just hit the Toronto area. If you can find it, go take a look at it--it's a taste of the future. A zillion colours, high resolution graphics, and REAL TIME 3-D GRAPHICS WITH SURFACE FILLING AND HIDDEN SURFACE REMOVAL. It's basically a simple game, and there isn't that much movement (the processors are probably wheezing), but it's so natural it's extremely impressive when you realize what's going on.

It's like proto-graphics whoredom in action. Fast forward a decade, change the name of the game, and you practically have a review from the PlayStation launch. I love it.

FnordChan

 

[Kilrogg]

Why is Nintendo so bad? (1989)
The Nintendo bashers (1992)
Atari vs. Nintendo conspiracy????? (1992)

I haven't read through all of it, but I'm sure there's gold to be found in there .

 

[PataHikari]

Why is Nintendo so bad? (1989)

I didn't want to turn this back into a Nintendo-bash, but I personally don't
like Nintendo. I'm not asking anyone else to share my opinion, but I have the
right to express that view.

They use low-end technology with high end marketing to achive success; fine.
But a techno-weenie like myself would like to see technology being pushed to
its limit and have the best unit win, not the best marketing department.
Forcing competitors out of the marketplace with "questionable" marketing
tactics may be fair or it may not be... it's just not something that I like to
see in an area of consumer electronics that I enjoy.

This is a thing of beauty.

 

[Kai Dracon]

What's so amazing about reading these antique posts is that a historical perspective really begins to put techfans, brandfans, and defensive provincial gamers in their place. And that place is very small, dumb, and set to be laughed at in its due turn in another 20 years.

It seems to be human nature though. People who style themselves as "pros", hardcore or whatever, are always threatened when their playing field is opened up to the masses; at least as they perceive it.

 

[Kurtofan]

I wonder if those guys still play video games and on which side they are now if they do.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

> Don't believe me? Try renting Commando and Strider, both by
> Capcom. They're almost identical! Still don't believe me?
> Try renting Blaster Master and Fester's Quest, both by Sunsoft.
> They're almost identical, too! Different game, same play-action.

Ah yes, Commando and Strider, practically indistinguishable.

 

[BishopLamont]

My friend who grew up in the 80s and 90s was a Sega fanboy and he still hates Nintendo to this day (well not hate, more like dislike). I guess it's all them colours and cute characters Nintendo makes that will forever alienate the more traditional players. Hopefully one day people can look past the outside and value what's on the inside.

 

[HamPster PamPster]

Why is Nintendo so bad? (1989)

I haven't read through all of it, but I'm sure there's gold to be found in there .

I think it is true that many of the 2600 games are better than Nintendo because the designers had to really work to wring good playable games out of the hardware.

Oh wow

I think it is true that many of the PS3 games are better than 360 because the designers had to really work to wring good playable games out of the hardware. - Gaf's Uncharted 3 hype thread a year or so from now

Also, google was around in 1989? I had no idea

 

[Deku]

No Google wasn't around, but the BBS posts were never deleted. google, being so awesome, tapped into all those posts, archived them and made them public.

 

[Kilrogg]

What's so amazing about reading these antique posts is that a historical perspective really begins to put techfans, brandfans, and defensive provincial gamers in their place. And that place is very small, dumb, and set to be laughed at in its due turn in another 20 years.

It seems to be human nature though. People who style themselves as "pros", hardcore or whatever, are always threatened when their playing field is opened up to the masses; at least as they perceive it.

Yesterday I listened to a French podcast (from the site that brought us the Wii Hi-Fi rumour at E3), and I was baffled to hear two of the hosts say nearly word for word that gaming should not be open to the masses but instead remain a subculture. They were dead serious. My jaw hit the floor.

 

[PataHikari]

Nintendo Anti-Trust Investigation

This is an interesting one.

 

[To Far Away Times]

Someone who kicks ass at pinball, one of the finest games of skill ever created and one of the industry's most painful losses.

This thread makes me realize how much I miss pinball games.

 

[Scipius]

No Google wasn't around, but the BBS posts were never deleted. google, being so awesome, tapped into all those posts, archived them and made them public.

These are just the old Deja News archives of Usenet postings, right? Or does Google Groups now include BBS messages?

 

[PataHikari]

Let's look at your logic here. Say I want to write a book. Does this
mean I should apply for a poetic license? I mean we wouldn't want people
to turn out low quality literature, now would we ?
As I remember, Atari first tried to block production of Activision
cartridges. Either they lost the battle, or realized that these new
independent cartridges boosted the sales of their home unit, and so
began the Atari phenomena....
Why in Buddha's name should anyone, ANYONE have to pay Nintendope
a CENT to put out peripherals for their system? Does this mean that
Seagate should have to pay ALL the major computer producers a royalty
fee for the privilege of making hard drives for them? Get a life!
The reason Ninrakedough is so popular here is that the average dweenie
never played any of the really good games of the early 1980's and
last owned an Atari 2600. This makes Joe Hydrocephally really believe
the games he plays on his Nintwobit are major technological coups. After
all, they are alot more fun than the pirated games he has for that PC
Clone he bought at K-Mart.
The other reason that Nofundo is so popular is that they advertise,
ADVERTISE A D V E R T I S E until you want to shove a Tetris where
the sun never shines.

However, Nintendo in Japan is a different story. It came out two years
before it was released here and had NO LOCKOUT system. Technologically,
it's comparable to the Atari 7800, except I think that the Atari has
better video quality.


The Lameboy is just an extension of their luddite policies extended
to the hand held. If Atari makes enough Lynxes, they might actually
get beaten although this is certainly a long shot due to Atari's major
psychological problems....

I love the internet.

Never change.

Oh wait, you never have. :lol

 

[Kilrogg]

I love the internet.

Never change.

Oh wait, you never have. :lol

It's not the internet. It's people. That's the frightening part right here.

 

[Hari Seldon]

Video Game journalism writing skill peaked in 1983.

 

[scitek]

Ah, so casual gamer is a euphemized version of novice gamer.

I prefer novice gamer SO much more because it's entirely accurate. Casual gamer does not necessarily describe someone who only plays WiiSports--what if they play it for 8 hours a day? That's pretty hardcore.

 

[Muffdraul]

Pretty misleading article from my personal point of view. I'm 41, I practically lived in arcades from the mid 70s to the mid 80s, and I don't recall anyone, not a single person, looking at games this way at the time. Some games were obviously regarded as harder than others, but nobody went around saying that Defender and Armor Assault were cool and Pac-Man and Donkey Kong were for pussies or anything remotely like that. If there was a group of people who shared Jarvis' opinion, they must have been a very tiny minority.

 

[The Technomancer]

I should start saving copies of more epic fanboy threads on here. Twenty years from now I'll post them on NeoNeoGAF and we'll all reminisce and go "wow, things ever change, do they?"

 

[LCfiner]

Ninrakedough. :lol :lol

what a tortured turn of phrase. so awkward.

I really do love how we're seeing all these same arguments all over again. the same gripes about closed platforms and royalty fees and - the worst crime of all to the techno elite - advertising.

fucking golden.

 

[Boney]

Traveling back in time is so wierd.

 

[Deku]

These are just the old Deja News archives of Usenet postings, right? Or does Google Groups now include BBS messages?

i suppose they are 'newsgroups' not the private BBS type things where you dialed in.

But its a confusion of the term on my part.

 

[BishopLamont]

Traveling back in time is so wierd.

Traveling back to the future is weirder.

 

[Kilrogg]

Ninrakedough. :lol :lol

what a tortured turn of phrase. so awkward.

I really do love how we're seeing all these same arguments all over again. the same gripes about closed platforms and royalty fees and - the worst crime of all to the techno elite - advertising.

fucking golden.

Yeah, the guy completely lost it. We ain't got nothing with our M$'s and Ninty's and whatnot :lol.

Interestingly the misconceptions about Nintendo's Seal of Quality already existed at the time even though people were confronted with new shitty NES games every day.

 

[Deku]

Ninrakedough. :lol :lol

what a tortured turn of phrase. so awkward.

I really do love how we're seeing all these same arguments all over again. the same gripes about closed platforms and royalty fees and - the worst crime of all to the techno elite - advertising.

fucking golden.

They've never gone away. people seeing the discussions, be it casual v. hardcore, the nintendo hate, the graphic whoring as a a cyclical thing is under heavy denial about the trajectory of the industry and the types of people and subcultures that populate it.

The only thing cyclical is Nintendo is back on top again.

 

[MattyGrovesOrMe]

Great find. Great thread.

Formerly, a typical video game player might be a warty teenager, a National Lampoon reader, blasting AC-DC in his room, who went to the arcade to kick a machine's butt. "From shit to God for a quarter," Jarvis commented. The games this type of player favors are almost invariably the American ones: Tough to play, intimidating to the novice, shooting-driving-destroying paranoid filled games. "Sperm games," Jarvis calls them. But now, he went on, these elitist video cowboys might be as extinct as their doggiepunching pinball forerunners.

I love the 180 degree change in perception of "typical video game players" between this article and one written 9 years earlier: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385103

 

[Boney]

Traveling back to the future is weirder.

:O

 

[Vinci]

It's like peering at the Ghost of Gaming's Future Past.

 

[FnordChan]

I love the 180 degree change in perception of "typical video game players" between this article and one written 9 years earlier: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385103

That 1974 article is great, and gives me an excuse to dust off an old post of mine about the sophisticated, swinging era of Pong.

FnordChan, recycling

 

[LCfiner]

It's going to be fascinating to read my posts about the industry and tech companies twenty years from now. I hope an archive of Gaf is around.

 

[Princess Skittles]

If there was a group of people who shared Jarvis' opinion, they must have been a very tiny minority.

And they are now. The only difference is that tiny minority now has a worldwide soapbox to cry from.

 

[Deku]

And they are now. The only difference is that tiny minority now has a worldwide soapbox to cry from.

That's actually not the worse of it. Many developers share those views, so they really thing they're trying to save gaming from Nintendo and the slanty eyed peoples of the east.

 

[FoxSpirit]

I prefer novice gamer SO much more because it's entirely accurate. Casual gamer does not necessarily describe someone who only plays WiiSports--what if they play it for 8 hours a day? That's pretty hardcore.

In some way, I find that pretty mind blowing. Especially since it's a very simple game... but so was Pong or Space Invaders.

 

[Fixed1979]

One thing has changed:

The saddest part about this tale is that the PC version by far outshines the combined profits of Amiga and ST versions so now some programmers are dropping the Amiga and ST and limiting their horizons simply for the bucks.

 

[Lufiaddict]

The more things change, the more they stay the same indeed.

Awesome. the more things change, the more they stay the same.

And thus we see that gamers have never changed.

System war never changes. Or in this case, gamer in-fighting?

The game always stays the same only the players change.

Funny! so 2006 was really just the reenactement of 86?

The parallels from those articles to today are damn uncanny.

Seriously, if you just replace the system and game names, these things could look

like posts on this board.

Shit really is cyclical, huh?

You could even say...

"Same shit, different day."

All this has happened before...

And all of this will happen again

People are still going to be having these exact same arguments in 20 years,

aren't they?

I should start saving copies of more epic fanboy threads on here. Twenty

years from now I'll post them on NeoNeoGAF and we'll all reminisce and go "wow, things ever

change, do they?"

It's going to be fascinating to read my posts about the industry and tech companies twenty years from now. I hope an archive of Gaf is around.

It's like peering at the Ghost of Gaming's Future Past.

Oh history and your funny ways of repeating yourself.

It's been the same since the stone age

History repeating in a thread about history repeating?

 

[Castle Doctrine]

fans of Defender were apparently scoffing at games like Donkey Kong and Pac-Man 27 years ago

Didn't happen. I hate to throw a wet blanket on the festivities but this whole thread is blown out of proportion. Pac-Man and Donkey Kong, especially Pac-Man, were universally loved by everyone. There was no supposed hardcore, except maybe a select few, who hated Pac-Man because it was too kiddie or soccer-mommy.

Same thing for Mario Bros. as well and whatever other popular Japanese games at the time you can think of.

I think the shift happened during the N64 era where a segment of gamers began too tire of Nintendo's "colorful" and what was seen as "kiddie" approach. The PS1 had more variety and many gamers migrated there, it also attracted older gamers who were otherwise put off by Nintendo's games. There are other reasons. Nowadays yes, supposed hardcore gamers are still scoffing at Nintendo with the Wii, but can't just lump everyone into being "insecure". They just prefer PS3/360/PC.

 

[PataHikari]

Lufiaddict.

I like you.

 

[Deku]

The Warming must be working overtime to reconcile his dissonance.

 

[Kilrogg]

That 1974 article is great, and gives me an excuse to dust off an old post of mine about the sophisticated, swinging era of Pong.

FnordChan, recycling

:lol

 

[Castle Doctrine]

The Warming must be working overtime to reconcile his dissonance.

So you think people didn't like Pac-Man and Donkey Kong because they were too cute, friendly, colorful, and easy? It just didn't happen. I don't know where this comes from. Pac-Man became of the most famous games of all time for a reason, it was loved by everyone.

BTW Pac-Man isn't really an easy game, maybe compared to Robotron it is.

 

[Vinci]

Didn't happen. I hate to throw a wet blanket on the festivities but this whole thread is blown out of proportion. Pac-Man and Donkey Kong, especially Pac-Man, were universally loved by everyone. There was no supposed hardcore, except maybe a select few, who hated Pac-Man because it was too kiddie or soccer-mommy.

Same thing for Mario Bros. as well and whatever other popular Japanese games at the time you can think of.

I think the shift happened during the N64 era where a segment of gamers began too tire of Nintendo's "colorful" and what was seen as "kiddie" approach. The PS1 had more variety and many gamers migrated there, it also attracted older gamers who were otherwise put off by Nintendo's games. There are other reasons. Nowadays yes, supposed hardcore gamers are still scoffing at Nintendo with the Wii, but can't just lump everyone into being "insecure". They just prefer PS3/360/PC.

I agree. Historical precedent is notoriously difficult to recognize when you're living through it. You're right.

Fast-forward 10 years later:

Nobody hated the Wii back then. I mean, yes, there was a small minority of people who actively despised it - and we all know that small minorities are usually the loudest - but to say that it's similar to how people feel about Apple's iGame is ridiculous. The Wii hate didn't happen.

 

[Parallax Scroll]

"Sperm Games"?

It's even the right time period!

 

[voodoopanda]

That mainstream love of Pac-Man and how it became one of the most popular video games is, I think, what the article is kinda talking about. Imagine the few hardcore arcade video game players playing games only they were into, suddenly having their arcades taken over by Pac-Man and Donkey Kong and all the fame those games got.

 

[Deku]

So you think people didn't like Pac-Man and Donkey Kong because they were too cute, friendly, colorful, and easy? It just didn't happen. I don't know where this comes from. Pac-Man became of the most famous games of all time for a reason, it was loved by everyone.

BTW Pac-Man isn't really an easy game, maybe compared to Robotron it is.

I honestly wouldn't know, I was too young to know the full scope of the industry and the various sub groups that populated it.

but there's no reason to believe your strung together retelling of history steeped in rationalization of your current world view is more credible than actual quotes from people living at the time exhibiting mostly the same tendencies, making the same arguments, except with different hardware.

Occum's razzor and all that. But believe what you'd like.

That mainstream love of Pac-Man and how it became one of the most popular video games is, I think, what the article is kinda talking about. Imagine the few hardcore arcade video game players playing games only they were into, suddenly having their arcades taken over by Pac-Man and Donkey Kong and all the fame those games got.

that is of course the point.

 

[Parallax Scroll]

And any of y'all potential pinball wizards should get your asses into this thread. I'm lonely at the top.

 

[Coolio McAwesome]

So you think people didn't like Pac-Man and Donkey Kong because they were too cute, friendly, colorful, and easy? It just didn't happen. I don't know where this comes from. Pac-Man became of the most famous games of all time for a reason, it was loved by everyone.

I've been reading a lot of classic video game magazines lately, and - at the very least - these philosophies were shared by many people within the industry. Many game designers and gaming journalists shared the viewpoints that were talked about in the article. In this very thread, many posters have dug up BBS posts from the '80s that suggest that gamers themselves sometimes shared these viewpoints. I would certainly agree that they were probably in the minority, but I am not sure if things have really changed in that regard. For someone to say that "Pac-Man was loved by everybody" because it happened to be the most successful game of its era would be like saying "Mario Kart Wii is loved by everybody." Mario Kart has a real chance of becoming the best-selling game of this generation and seemingly appeals to everybody. And, yet, there is a lot of hate directed at that game. (The same example could be used with Wii Sports or New Super Mario Bros. Wii.) The best-selling games this generation are the ones that appeal to "everyone." Incidentally, even the games that appeal to everybody, don't appeal to everybody. The haters are still in the minority, but - as another poster astutely noted - the self-described "hardcore" gamers now have a larger soap box.

 

[Genesis Knight]

I have but one thing to say to that:

Came here to declare this best GIF of all time and to say that this was the first Genesis game I played.

 

[Muffdraul]

The-Warning, read my previous post. I'm with you. I was there. I know exactly what you're talking about and you're correct. Fuck these guys.

 

[PataHikari]

Game Boy is dead
Holy crap. :lol

 

[SYNTAX182]

The-Warning, read my previous post. I'm with you. I was there. I know exactly what you're talking about and you're correct. Fuck these guys.

I must be crazy, but doesn't the article and the links provided within the thread disprove that point?

Saying no one had this point of view back then is silly when the proof is provided within the thread.