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343i Acknowledges Halo 5 Storytelling Mistake, Will Double Down on Master Chief Focus

Madness

Member
Nonsense. Its a fucking game, thats the beauty of the medium you can pretty much explain anything. The Prometheans dont suit the Universe, they need to go. Very few people even enjoy fighting them, why keep them in at all? Just admit you fucked it up and writs them out of it.

Lol, they literally threw Requiem into the Sun and never brought Didact the so-called Ancient Evil back. Humanity in 4.5 years goes from almost galactic extinction to magically being a superpower with unlimited reach, resources and even an entirely new Spartan program where they can parkour down snowbanks and kill Elites like they are grunts etc.

These are games. They have taken so many liberties they can do it again. Prometheans shouldn't even technically exist in such number anymore.
 

Andodalf

Banned
Halo 4 Has the best story in Halo (If you read the books)

Halo 5 Has some of the best movement in any game ever, The best forge ever, and some really great modes, Like Super Fiesta and WZ FF, that feel very new and fresh. Great for casual gameplay. All at 60 FPS


My first Halo was CE (Best campaign levels IMO)

My fav is Reach (best combo of SP-design-story/MP/Sandbox/Forge-Customs/Graphics)
 

Kill3r7

Member
Halo 4 Has the best story in Halo (If you read the books)

Halo 5 Has some of the best movement in any game ever, The best forge ever, and some really great modes, Like Super Fiesta and WZ FF, that feel very new and fresh. Great for casual gameplay. All at 60 FPS


My first Halo was CE (Best campaign levels IMO)

My fav is Reach (best combo of SP-design-story/MP/Sandbox/Forge-Customs/Graphics)

If you cannot tell a compelling and complete story be it a film or a game without requiring supplemental reading then you failed to do you job as a storyteller.
 

Gator86

Member
Oh and if 343 are reading, Nathan Fillion was great. More of him, i would not say no.

It would be hilarious if Bungie and their leftovers both wound up doing the "we have no clue what we're doing, here's more Nathan Fillion to paper over our shortcomings" routine.
 

jelly

Member
I know Prometheans aren't robots, well kinda but is it just a coincidence that Halo and Gears flipped to that. Is it some focus tested thing or creative blockage that results in this?
 

Calm Killer

In all media, only true fans who consume every book, film, game, or pog collection deserve to know what's going on.
I don't want to pile on here but I would like to list the things that 343 could improve on for sure. Not going to be negative in the past (as best I can).

New Characters: If we are going to introduce new characters to the story, there should be an introduction to the new characters. Osiris and Blue team were just there in the story. If you read the Comics/Books you understood blue team, but if not you didn't. That will help with story telling. Just showing some random person on the screen out of nowhere will lead to characters having no depth and no one having an attachment to them. This is why there was a fondness of Buck, but no one else.

Master Chief Focus: If we are introducing other characters as playable, they shouldn't have more than half the playable missions. Halo 2 split between Chief and Arbiter, and people hated it then, but it was still a 1-1 ratio. A Master chief game (Mainline Halo Game) should have at least half of the story focused on Chief. Not 3 -12.

Story telling: Let the story continue threads from other sources, Comics, Books, TV, etc, but don't make it key to the story telling. Each game's story should be self contained, but not limited. If you are going to focus on the Janis Key, Didact, and go down specific story paths, don't kill of that story and go in a different direction. That just causes whiplash and confusion. The marketing for Halo 5 was amazing, but had nothing at all to do with the story of the game. It great story telling with Hunt the Truth that lead to nothing at all in the game.
 

NeOak

Member
Man... Halo had the mass popularity to become a Star Wars level franchise about ten years ago.

It's astounding to me that we still don't have a film adaptation. Even the Steven Spielberg tv series they announced years ago seems to have went up in smoke.

343 was handed a money printing machine, but instead of printing money, they started peeling off the stickers on all of the buttons and changing everything about the machine to make it into their own take.

So much great story content at their fingertips...

Cortana's rampancy, the remnants of the Covenant, the history of the Forerunners, the remaining Spartan II and Spartan IIIs, humanity rebuilding from near annihilation.

Some of these things they have done well, but most of what they have touched upon was executed in the worst of ways.



The art direction in Halo 4 and 5 is what angers me the most.



Compared to



Whoever was in charge of the art direction in the Halo 2 remaster needs to be put in permanent charge of Halo's art direction going forward.

That is disgusting. Change for the sake of being "ours".

343i went in, changed things from Bungie's style and are OK with it just like how the Republicans are OK with laws championed by Democrats as long as it is their version.

Yes 343i, you went full Republican party on what Bungie had done.
 

jelly

Member
The one thing I really dislike about modern Halo is the art style and the humans being the dominating super fleet of the galaxy. Where did they get those wonderful toys. The odds are interesting when it's not in your favour. I suppose the ending of Halo 5 helps a bit with that but the world just isn't interesting when it's perfect adventures of the UNSC with no budget.
 

NeOak

Member
The one thing I really dislike about modern Halo is the art style and the humans being the dominating super fleet of the galaxy. Where did they get those wonderful toys. The odds are interesting when it's not in your favour. I suppose the ending of Halo 5 helps a bit with that but the world just isn't interesting when it's perfect adventures of the UNSC with no budget.
It would have been interesting to see the pains of rebuilding and new threats while the UNSC had been so vulnerable.

But nah, lets make Infinity out of the rabbit hole and UNSC is OP now 6 months after the end of the war. As if it never happened.

Oh, and humans were OP like the Prometeans too 150k years before, etc.
 

Disgraced

Member
They killed a few of the characters in the comics. One even turned into a rebel.

Pretty much a clean up of most characters introduced in the Bungie era, even some from Halo 4 like the Didact ffs.
Why the fuck would they limit their options so...
 

Kalentan

Member
They killed a few of the characters in the comics. One even turned into a rebel.

Pretty much a clean up of most characters introduced in the Bungie era, even some from Halo 4 like the Didact ffs.

You can't really blame them for doing the rebel one. That stuff was taken right out what Bungie had set up. From those ODST interviews they released pre-release.
 

Kalentan

Member
Could be story of him becoming a spartan. So hed still be an ODST in the game.

It was already covered already.

Halo_New_Blood_cover.jpg

And yes, I know this will piss of some people here since GAF is not quiet about it's hate for Halo's EU.
 

Zeta Oni

Member
Because they weren't "theirs".

That's what it looks like if you see who they have killed.

Also not getting Nylund or Joe Staten back.

Nylund retired if I'm not mistaken, and Joe Staten has already dedicated a fair portion of his life to Halo, I'm pretty sure he could be involved if he really wanted to.
 

NeOak

Member
It was already covered already.



And yes, I know this will piss of some people here since GAF is not quiet about it's hate for Halo's EU.
You mean how after 343 took over it basically trampled on what had been the EU under Bungie?

How they shat on Halsey even though the character was more complex as seen in the journal shipped with the Reach LE?

I mean, at least Disney had the balls to say "new Star Wars EU" instead of fucking up the old one.
 
The way MS has structured 343 and The Coalition is so uninspiring. They're basically brand managers for Halo and Gears. There's no expectation of risk-taking, and if they stray too far from expectations they have to snap back to form. Both studios should be given liberty to develop an independent culture with new franchises. After the teams have an actual identity, they can revisit Halo/Gears.
 

NeOak

Member
Nylund retired if I'm not mistaken, and Joe Staten has already dedicated a fair portion of his life to Halo, I'm pretty sure he could be involved if he really wanted to.

Oh, Nylund is with Amazon Game Studios. Not that it matters because that happened in 2013, way after 343 got Halo. I wonder if they even bothered to consult him at all, looking at how the Fall of Reach animated thing was.

And have they even asked Joe Staten?

343 hates Bungie so much that they want to delete everything Bungie did well.
.
 

Kalentan

Member
You mean how after 343 took over it basically trampled on what had been the EU under Bungie?

How they shat on Halsey even though the character was more complex as seen in the journal shipped with the Reach LE?

I mean, at least Disney had the balls to say "new Star Wars EU" instead of fucking up the old one.

Honestly this is why discussions like this never go anywhere. It's always extremes. The failure to acknowledge any of the good that 343i has done with the EU leads to them being literally evil and destroying everything Bungie set to achieve.

Disney's situation with the new Star Wars EU is completely different. Apples and Oranges.

Not in a game it wasnt.

There isn't enough there to make a game.
 

NeOak

Member
Honestly this is why discussions like this never go anywhere. It's always extremes. The failure to acknowledge any of the good that 343i has done with the EU leads to them being literally evil and destroying everything Bungie set to achieve.

Disney's situation with the new Star Wars EU is completely different. Apples and Oranges.



There isn't enough there to make a game.
I don't like a lot of the things 343 introduced, starting with the Spartan Br4s.

They have done things, but shit man, when you need to have read 3 novels to understand why the Ur-Didact wants to do the shit he did in H4, is it still a "Extended Universe"?

Among other things in H5 that you needed to be up to date in the EU to understand.

Bungie never relied on the EU. They actually ignored it when making the stories. Even retconned stuff in games.
 
Honestly this is why discussions like this never go anywhere. It's always extremes. The failure to acknowledge any of the good that 343i has done with the EU leads to them being literally evil and destroying everything Bungie set to achieve.

Disney's situation with the new Star Wars EU is completely different. Apples and Oranges.



There isn't enough there to make a game.

Buck applies for Spartanship. 2 weeks later, hes accepted. The end.
 

Kalentan

Member
I don't like a lot of the things 343 introduced, starting with the Spartan Br4s.

They have done things, but shit man, when you need to have read 3 novels to understand why the Ur-Didact wants to do the shit he did in H4, is it still a "Extended Universe"?

Among other things in H5 that you needed to be up to date in the EU to understand.

Bungie never relied on the EU. They actually ignored it when making the stories. Even retconned stuff in games.

I didn't say it's perfect and 343i can for sure to improve but all of these discussions boil down:

"DAE think 343i sucks and trying to destroy all of Bungies legacy!?"

Which is such a loaded question cause you know the person asking the question already made their answers and are only looking for confirmation from others rather than a rebuttal. A lot of those people then want Halo to evolve while at the same time not changing at all.
 

NeOak

Member
I didn't say it's perfect and 343i can for sure to improve but all of these discussions boil down:

"DAE think 343i sucks and trying to destroy all of Bungies legacy!?"

Which is such a loaded question cause you know the person asking the question already made their answers and are only looking for confirmation from others rather than a rebuttal.
280299742_290202.gif


On a serious note, I see what you're saying. But it's been what? 8 years now since they started working on Halo? Their track record speaks for them. They can't pull a Molyneux. They promised H5 would correct shit from 4 and instead we got a bigger fuck up and another promise that they will fix it for Halo 6.
 
280299742_290202.gif


On a serious note, I see what you're saying. But it's been what? 8 years now since they started working on Halo? Their track record speaks for them. They can't pull a Molyneux. They promised H5 would correct shit from 4 and instead we got a bigger fuck up and another promise that they will fix it for Halo 6.

Hopefully by the time halo 8 comes out, they will have fucked up so many things in previous halos and learned from them that they will actually finally know what we want and that game will be absolutely amazing!

Or not.
 

Kalentan

Member
280299742_290202.gif


On a serious note, I see what you're saying. But it's been what? 8 years now since they started working on Halo? Their track record speaks for them. They can't pull a Molyneux. They promised H5 would correct shit from 4 and instead we got a bigger fuck up and another promise that they will fix it for Halo 6.

Well I look at it like this, Halo 6 is the break it or make it game. I liked Halo 5's campaign, I still do, but even I can't lie that over time I started to question story decisions they made.

And as someone who is heavily invested in the EU, I do find it frustrating when Hunt the Truth goes no where (despite being one of the best EU things Halo has produced, ever), and don't even get me started on the Absolute Record which has the biggest cop out ending.

Halo 6 to me is the final draw to see if they can steer the ship correctly. Cause for all the faults of Halo 4 and the EU at the time, it all felt like it was together. Then the criticism of Halo 4 settled in and that led them to make large changes that caused both the main games and the EU to suffer since plot lines were suddenly ended to begin this new galaxy-wide one.

Halo Wars 2 has a pretty good story and a simple one at that. I think if they can do the same in Halo 6 as they did there, then it should be good.
 

NeOak

Member
Well I look at it like this, Halo 6 is the break it or make it game. I liked Halo 5's campaign, I still do, but even I can't lie that over time I started to question story decisions they made.

And as someone who is heavily invested in the EU, I do find it frustrating when Hunt the Truth goes no where (despite being one of the best EU things Halo has produced, ever), and don't even get me started on the Absolute Record which has the biggest cop out ending.

Halo 6 to me is the final draw to see if they can steer the ship correctly. Cause for all the faults of Halo 4 and the EU at the time, it all felt like it was together. Then the criticism of Halo 4 settled in and that led them to make large changes that caused both the main games and the EU to suffer since plot lines were suddenly ended to begin this new galaxy-wide one.

Halo Wars 2 has a pretty good story and a simple one at that. I think if they can do the same in Halo 6 as they did there, then it should be good.

I'm sorry, but you'll join our club when Halo 6 is out.
 

VeeP

Member
3rd times the charm, right?

Two games in, Prometheans still suck ass. What reason is there to believe they'll get it right.

The entire philosophy behind their design work AGAINST the sandbox- resulting in tedious enemies and promethean weapons that also work against the sandbox.

No reason to believe they'll get it right. But he answer isn't going back to using the covenant. Hey can change the enemies, change the weapons. The answer isn't throw the lore in the trash.
 
I am very late to this topic so I probably am not bringing up anything that hasn't been said before but I wanted to weigh in too.

First, every time someone questions whether or not Halo is still relevant, my mind flashes to threads like this one where there are pages on pages of peoples thoughts, opinions, arguments... i.e., their passion for this franchise.

Halo has done so much so well in it's time and ultimately all the griping is really just the sour side of the way that people really pull for this franchise.

The level of salt over this brief article is understandable, from all perspectives, really but it is a lot of fighting over scraps.

We would love for 343 come out an comprehensively account for the more egregious flaws of H5's campaign and confidently detail how they will be rectified. But that is not going to happen is it? The gave is still in dev, 343/MS always plays Halo close to the vest until 6 months or less before release. Leaks are always fun, but are fairly useless except for speculation until confirmed by the final product.

That being said it is unsettling that 343's takeaway is simply more Chief versus assessing a breadth of truly elementary storytelling problems. A well told story is, in part, a sales job for the new characters and elements and 343 simply did not sell them well at all.

Also, something about the gameplay is off, particularly with the squad elements. I, like many, always play through a new Halo on Heroic first and then do a Legendary run. For me, Heroic always best represented the video game challenge of going to war but being the superhero too. Legendary, on the other hand... Legendary, is where you really fought the Covenant, where the desperate story of humanity on it's heels and you as the last hope best sells the scope of the story, the unlikeliness of your victory.

Halo 5 is the first Halo game that I could care less about finishing on Legendary. Every engagement on Legendary in any of the games is all about solving a puzzle as it evolves as much as it is about being skillful. Playing Legendary often means getting cut down seemingly out of nowhere. Repeatedly. But something with the squad made it so much more difficult and cheap. Not to mention, I wish you could skip waiting to be revived. It almost never works out and just wastes time waiting for the next opportunity to get back to the Legendary grind. The squad in H5 just feels like a bunch of goobers constantly getting taken down and whining for assistance.

See I have my own salt too!
 

Trup1aya

Member
If they ever were to do an ODST-style expansion, it should follow the kilo-5 team during the build up to Halo5.

That way it could incorporate the interesting story beats HTT touched on, and fill in the critical missing info H5 Glossed over.

No reason to believe they'll get it right. But he answer isn't going back to using the covenant. Hey can change the enemies, change the weapons. The answer isn't throw the lore in the trash.

Lol the lore is already in the trash...

But let's be clear. They don't have to "go back to the Covenant" . But there are factions within each of the former Covenant races that are still hostile towards humanity. The lore supports there being Hostile, Friendly and Indifferent members of each of these races- a fact that could and SHOULD be used to give us more interesting fights than the Prometheans will ever allow.

It's also worth mentioning that gunfights being fun is more important than holding on to an enemy faction that has been almost universally disliked since it was brought into the franchise- especially when you'd be doing so exclusively for narrative reasons- especially when people don't even like the narrative.
 

Freiya

Member
I liked locke or whatever his name is. The campaign felt cheap and rushed and story sucked. Only halo game I've beat that i didn't enjoy.
 

Monocle

Member
343i had an amazing opportunity with the new start provided by the end of Halo 3 but they squandered it all.

As someone who had at the time put hundreds of hours into the previous mainline games I hoped they would make a grand departure both mechanically and narratively with Halo 4. They did neither.

With that commitment they strapped themselves into a new arc of games that were extensions of the Bungie releases. This set awkward expectations as keeping it familiar set some fans up to wanting nothing to change about the formula while others, like myself, wanted an entirely new experience.

I'd love to get excited about a new game set in the Halo universe but with entirely fresh characters, setting, and mechanics. Halo 6 probably won't be that game, but I wish them the best with the daunting task they have trying to move the franchise forward.
Then play a different series.

"I want everything to look like Halo but otherwise be totally different!"

If you're not OK with Halo retaining a certain basic continuity with each entry, and you don't want even the base mechanics to carry over to future games, it's time to move on.

Sequels should always aim to deliver more of the same but better. Radical departures from a formula that works should be off the table, at least for numbered entries in a well established series.
 

spootime

Member
Oh, Nylund is with Amazon Game Studios. Not that it matters because that happened in 2013, way after 343 got Halo. I wonder if they even bothered to consult him at all, looking at how the Fall of Reach animated thing was.

And have they even asked Joe Staten?

Nylund retired if I'm not mistaken, and Joe Staten has already dedicated a fair portion of his life to Halo, I'm pretty sure he could be involved if he really wanted to.

Eric Nylund on his reddit AMA said that he asked 343 about their new narrative director position (since they got rid of Brian Reed) and he was told they had already found someone.

edit -- Meant to say Eric Nylund, not Joe Staten
 
Then play a different series.

"I want everything to look like Halo but otherwise be totally different!"

If you're not OK with Halo retaining a certain basic continuity with each entry, and you don't want even the base mechanics to carry over to future games, it's time to move on.

Sequels should always aim to deliver more of the same but better. Radical departures from a formula that works should be off the table, at least for numbered entries in a well established series.

It going back to Halo2 gameplay isnt any better. There has to be some sort of evolution which most fans here are completely unwilling to accept. They started a whole new thread because of a fucking sprint. Yay or nay. Fucking embarrassing.

I think halo absolutely need to remain 'familiar' in its evolution but theres also a difference between being familiar and being stagnant.
 
Its the Molyneux cycle.

We made mistakes with Halo 4, Next Halo 5 will be better!

Now its we made mistakes on Halo 5..Next Halo will be better..promise!
Halo 5 is better than Halo 4. Fable III is not better than Fable II. There are clear improvements on the multiplayer side of Halo 5, they made strides going back to even starts, the gunplay is the best in the series. I don't have much faith in 343i's ability to make a good campaign yet. Though they're receptive to fan feedback in a way Lionhead never was, so not an apt comparison.
 
Joe Staten on his reddit AMA said that he asked 343 about their new narrative director position (since they got rid of Brian Reed) and he was told they had already found someone.

I believe you are thinking of Eric Nylund.

 

Zeta Oni

Member
I believe you are thinking of Eric Nylund.

FUCK

Come on, you mean we could have had the guy who gave us The Fall of Reach and First Strike in charge of the whole narrative?

I shoulda just stayed out of this thread, cause that's the most disappointing news I've heard in a while.
 

Monocle

Member
FUCK

Come on, you mean we could have had the guy who gave us The Fall of Reach and First Strike in charge of the whole narrative?

I shoulda just stayed out of this thread, cause that's the most disappointing news I've heard in a while.
Yeah 343 should have hired Nylund at any cost. He's responsible for some of Halo's most memorable stories. His characterization of Halsey and the various Spartan IIs is second to none.
 

m23

Member
FUCK

Come on, you mean we could have had the guy who gave us The Fall of Reach and First Strike in charge of the whole narrative?

I shoulda just stayed out of this thread, cause that's the most disappointing news I've heard in a while.

You're forgetting Ghosts of Onyx, the best Halo book.
 

jelly

Member
Damn, Eric Nylund was interested. Maybe he can reboot the series down the line or expand on an early years Universe route to go down.

I don't know what person got the job, no ill feelings towards them, any good?
 
FUCK

Come on, you mean we could have had the guy who gave us The Fall of Reach and First Strike in charge of the whole narrative?

I shoulda just stayed out of this thread, cause that's the most disappointing news I've heard in a while.

343 wants the narrative to be bad it seems
 
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