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3DS Flash Cart Now Shipping: Nintendo's nightmare coming true

I also wonder how the general sales of games and hardware would have done without piracy. Piracy surely made people aware of new games, developers and so forth, but it doesn't sound similar at all to PC games piracy, for example, so I wonder how often people who pirated games on 3DS/DS started buying again.

But even on the DS or 3DS, I don't think 1 downloaded game means 1 lost sale in the big picture. That person who downloaded that game might have bought a legit copy he would not have bought otherwise, or made him aware of a unique series of games, genre of games, a developer, etc. There's a lot more room to try out games when they are free. And I think A LOT of "pirated downloads" are redownloads and collector downloads -- as in, a lot of them wouldn't have bought the game to begin with. Overall, my impression is that maybe, in general, on PC, 25%-30% of pirated game downloads goes to people who would have bought it otherwise. Probably a lot less. No idea about DS/3DS since it's such a unique structure (Requires you to crack the entire system, as opposed to each game. It's significantly easier to download the entire database of games released.)

I'm sure new updates from Nintendo, or unique features would have incentivized people to return to a legit firmware, but I'm not sure if Nintendo even tried that.

I'm not going to argue that there was enough physical piracy to have an effect, I've seen enough personal anecdotal evidence to know that it happened and the sales of Flash cards speak for themselves (region locking would have died a long time ago if even half the people who had flash cards would import stuff because it would have been impractical from a business point of view since it'd move all sales to the most served region which would be counterproductive).

Downloads are a terrible way to track piracy for portables though (and to a lesser extent consoles that are late in their life span / past gen), once emulators come out people start downloading entire batches and storing them on external media , so they have whatever they want available when ever. These people download thousands of games in a hit , but likely don't even own the portable device in question and if they did they'd have bought ~10% or less of the games at best.

Though I guess that only applies to absolute numbers, it's still a good way to track relative piracy per region.

I personally have mixed feelings here, I buy my games, even going to the extent of importing an NA 3DS to avoid region locking.

Before Nintendo started doing Digital for most things, the piracy groups would have stuff up and cracked before my express shipping orders would arrive (frequently 0-day or before), that's the kind of thing Nintendo really should have learnt from (DS games unlike consoles or the PSP to a lesser extent , where well within Bandwith for most people).

These groups also make large scale preservation much easier (I'd pretty much bet you can find pretty much every game ever released fairly easily). Even if the platform holders wanted to do this they usually can't (due to expired licensing deals if nothing else or who owns the digital rights now getting lost in company mergers and deaths and not being secured in an age when digital distribution made no sense or only for limited times) and they generally have no real interest in doing so. They prefer remakes and rereleases which bring in more money since they sell at current gen prices.

Even virtual console stuff is half-hearted (usually significantly inferior to open-source emulators) and overpriced. From a current business standards perspective that makes sense, it's important to preserve the psychological value of a game as being above a certain threshold even if it's cost of reproduction is ~0 and it's long since recouped development costs.
 
I'm not going to argue that there was enough physical piracy to have an effect, I've seen enough personal anecdotal evidence to know that it happened and the sales of Flash cards speak for themselves (region locking would have died a long time ago if even half the people who had flash cards would import stuff because it would have been impractical from a business point of view since it'd move all sales to the most served region which would be counterproductive).

Nintendo DS flashcart availability (number of unique listings), 2011:

i6t8L9G.png



Suffices to say, there are a LOT of flashcarts being sold out there.
 
Mess at me Googling prices. I might buy this to play MH4.

GIGGLES

The firmware spoof is just to boot recent games, right? You still need a 4.5 3DS?
 

d31m0s

Member
nah. right now there are hundreds of 3DS games already available and with that flash cart also playable. just don't go online with your 3DS anymore and pirate all available 3DS games.
If a new update blocks the flash cart, you just buy another newer version of that flash cart in like a year or two and you have again a pool of games to pirate from.

also a lot of people can do without online and eshop and such.

I just dont see the justification in this honestly its so much hassle than being someone who actually enjoys games
 

antonz

Member
Wasn't the DS software market essentially crippled in the UK due to flashcarts?

Europe in general nosedived in software sales as the R4 increased in popularity. Developers became very vocal about how bad it was and how they were stopping development of games until a new system came out etc.

Handhelds already have a limited developer pool of resources so scaring away from that already limited pool just hastens the demise of handhelds.

Flashcard availability in the US never reached the kind of availability in Europe. Many a Euro gaffer have spoke to the fact they could walk into a shop and the clerks would offer R4s with dozens on games on them to parents etc. for their DS
 

M3d10n

Member
How does DS software still selling with flashcart around while PSP software sell heavily crippled by piracy on the system?

Two possible factors:

1) The best selling DS games were very popular among the casual crowd and kids who get their games gifted to them, as most "evergreen" Nintendo titles are. Those games were also often bought alongside the system itself, before parents found out about "free games". The PSP was usually sought after by an older audience that can be argued as being more prone to pirate by themselves.

2) You had to actually buy a flashcard in order to use it and in the US they weren't easily found in physical stores until much later in the system's lifespan. The PSP hacks came much earlier and for a long time could be done without buying additional hardware.

3) A number of people who wouldn't have bought a PSP bought one due to it's well known homebrew (it is still one of the best portable emulation machines out there) and/or piracy, making it seem software sold less while in reality it was the hardware that sold abnormally more.
 
There are legitimate uses for a cart like this and the distributors shouldn't be being punished it should be the people who are pirating.

The Tokyo District Court most recently confirmed in a July 9th ruling that "sellers [of flashcarts like R4 or Gateway] must be held accountable for the damages caused by the game copiers, and must [pay financial restitution] to the authentic software manufacturers."

At least as far as Japan is concerned, it doesn't matter if Gateway has a legitimate purpose...its piracy enabling methods can make distributors liable for damages.
 

Sandfox

Member
How does DS software still selling with flashcart around while PSP software sell heavily crippled by piracy on the system?

The PSP audience was probably just more eager to pirate and for some people its easier to hack a PSP then it is to acquire a flash card.
 
3) A number of people who wouldn't have bought a PSP bought one due to it's well known homebrew (it is still one of the best portable emulation machines out there) and/or piracy, making it seem software sold less while in reality it was the hardware that sold abnormally more.

Yeahh the two things I ever saw being played on a psp that was not mine were Monster Hunter and a pokemon ROM...at my high school at that time there were definitely people buying them only to hack to bits.
 
The Tokyo District Court most recently confirmed in a July 9th ruling that "sellers [of flashcarts like R4 or Gateway] must be held accountable for the damages caused by the game copiers, and must [pay financial restitution] to the authentic software manufacturers."

At least as far as Japan is concerned, it doesn't matter if Gateway has a legitimate purpose...its piracy enabling methods can make distributors liable for damages.

Yeah, but that legal statement doesn't necessarily mean its morally correct. It's actually a pretty dangerous slippery slope really, since that logic means knife sellers should be held accountable for stabbings. Though its one that likely won't happen since knife manufacturers have a better public image and better lobbying groups.
 

Tripon

Member
Yeah, but that legal statement doesn't necessarily mean its morally correct. It's actually a pretty dangerous slippery slope really, since that logic means knife sellers should be held accountable for stabbings. Though its one that likely won't happen since knife manufacturers have a better public image and better lobbying groups.

The utility of a knife is a lot more than a potential use for violence.


The potential utility of the Gateway card for bypassing region locking will have a lot less use than its potential to commit piracy.
 

Shengar

Member
Wasn't the DS software market essentially crippled in the UK due to flashcarts?

In the US, as SmokyDave said, not UK.
Two possible factors:

1) The best selling DS games were very popular among the casual crowd and kids who get their games gifted to them, as most "evergreen" Nintendo titles are. Those games were also often bought alongside the system itself, before parents found out about "free games". The PSP was usually sought after by an older audience that can be argued as being more prone to pirate by themselves.

2) You had to actually buy a flashcard in order to use it and in the US they weren't easily found in physical stores until much later in the system's lifespan. The PSP hacks came much earlier and for a long time could be done without buying additional hardware.

3) A number of people who wouldn't have bought a PSP bought one due to it's well known homebrew (it is still one of the best portable emulation machines out there) and/or piracy, making it seem software sold less while in reality it was the hardware that sold abnormally more.

Pretty good points there. I guess its true that PSP hack was more popular and damaging to its software sell because it doesn't need any hardware device. By point 1, and if tis true, then most of PSP users are indeed cheap pirate since PSP is less catering to casual.
 

remist

Member
I'm glad my firmware is still 4.5. I'll definitely be picking this up in order to import MH4. Anyone know the best place to buy in the US?
 

Busaiku

Member
Doesn't Monster Hunter 4 require the latest firmware?
If not, then Nintendo/Capcom really needs to get things straight.
 
Doesn't Monster Hunter 4 require the latest firmware?
If not, then Nintendo/Capcom really needs to get things straight.

It's irrelevant, since Gateway can reportedly spoof 6.2.0-12J.

Also, we don't know what kind of minimum firmware it will require, since the latest games released July 2013 or later have been requiring 5.1.0.
 

Laughing Banana

Weeping Pickle
I would also like to point out that ever since Gateway 3DS has been announced / released, the amount of pirated 3DS games available has accelerated at a staggering pace.

There seems to be a direct correlation between the availability of a piracy enabler and the motivation of piracy groups.

Many would try to butter up their statement about devices like this to be used for legitimate purposes, but they must be blind or ignorant, or pretend to be ignorant, if they disagree on what kind of activities that the very vast majority of its purchasers will use it on.

And I am perfectly willing to bet that the makers of these devices know it too. And that they are banking on it to sell more of this sort of devices for more money.

"Legitimate purposes" my ass.
 
I am fully aware of what the majority of purchasers will use it for (I would wager money that so are most people who are interested for legitimate purposes, you still have to follow the same places to keep up to date after all and a lot of people are not even a little bit subtle). That doesn't actually invalidate the desire to have one for legitimate purposes (well hypothetically speaking anyway, I already imported a US 3DS so I have no use for this device).

And of course the makers are banking on that, cracking security at this stage is hard. It usually ends up coming down not to beating the algorithms but to either a) physically decapping of chips to reverse engineer keys or b) spending many many man hours looking for errors in implementation of the algorithms (it's a sad truth of security that as an algorithm becomes more secure it also becomes more difficult to properly implement). Its one of the reasons that a lot of these things actually ride on the back of homebrew hackers, you see what they do and then make some small adjustments and charge money for it, your initial investment is much smaller that way. You wouldn't recoup your investment just in breaking region locking.
 

upandaway

Member
I'm already on updated firmware and don't want to never go online (considering Pokemon will soon be out), so I guess I won't be using this anytime soon.

Usually though, the flash card makers have the last laugh, so hopefully I can just start using it when the next portable comes out and Nintendo stops updating. I definitely want that region free.
 
hopefully Nintendo finds a way to disable this device forever and malfunction it's owners 3DS.
otherwise this will end like on DS where soccermums storm Gamestops to buy the "cart with all the free games on it".

as i said many times before. 99,99% of the flash cart buyers will use it for pirating the shit out of the 3DS only. for nothing else.
There may be noble men and women here on GAF who really use it for region unlocking but the rest won't. it's that simple.
Considering this I don't understand why posting (and therefor promoting) about this device is allowed here.
 

dallow_bg

nods at old men
hopefully Nintendo finds a way to disable this device forever and malfunction it's owners 3DS.
otherwise this will end like on DS where soccermums storm Gamestops to buy the "cart with all the free games on it".

as i said many times before. 99,99% of the flash cart buyers will use it for pirating the shit out of the 3DS only. for nothing else.
There may be noble men and women here on GAF who really use it for region unlocking but the rest won't. it's that simple.
Considering this I don't understand why posting (and therefor promoting) about this device is allowed here.

Because most of GAF can be grown up about it and discuss.
 

ArynCrinn

Banned
Because most of GAF can be grown up about it and discuss.

Nah, any real substantive and honest discussion on filesharing cannot be had on GAF, unfortunately. Because to have a honest and worthwhile discourse requires both precise definitions as well as honesty and experience. The rules are skewed against having a real discussion about piracy/filesharing in general because nobody can be allowed to speak from experience or be honest.

It's all SWIM shit, and ambiguity and very imprecise definitions about the "ethics" revolving around the issue at large. Problem is, in the digital age, from a philosophical point of view we haven't developed a universal principle to evaluate these advances in technology, something that is plum line, valid all the way from top to bottom. That ethical lever hasn't been put in place yet so people have wildly different opinions as well as definitions about filesharing.
 

dallow_bg

nods at old men
Nah, any real substantive and honest discussion on filesharing cannot be had on GAF, unfortunately. Because to have a honest and worthwhile discourse requires both precise definitions as well as honesty and experience. The rules are skewed against having a real discussion about piracy/filesharing in general because nobody can be allowed to speak from experience or be honest.

It's all SWIM shit, and ambiguity and very imprecise definitions about the "ethics" revolving around the issue at large. Problem is, in the digital age, from a philosophical point of view we haven't developed a universal principle to evaluate these advances in technology, something that is plum line, valid all the way from top to bottom. That ethical lever hasn't been put in place yet so people have wildly different opinions as well as definitions about filesharing.

I think we're all agreed that piracy of 3DS games is wrong, if you don't agree well...
And people have spoken about their own personal file sharing history without repercussions as well.
 

dallow_bg

nods at old men
You are posting in a sh@dow thread. A grown up discussion is the last of his intentions.

Let's all stick it to him then and do just that.

(I don't know anything about him aside for what's written in the OP which seems fairly normal)
 

ArynCrinn

Banned
I think we're all agreed that piracy of 3DS games is wrong, if you don't agree well...
And people have spoken about their own personal file sharing history without repercussions as well.

And I've seen people be banned for it as well. But "piracy" or more accurately "filesharing" as a concept I would vigorously argue serves a larger proportion of individuals than the simple pay as you go model of old. I think the idea of people freely sharing digital media for non-profit gain to millions of others greases so to speak the machine of freedom than others might argue. Rather or not it affects an industry or a government, institutions what have you is largely irrelevant in comparison to who it serves. It's fundamentally a argument between the sovereignty of the individual person vs. the "rights" as a concept of a creator or a institution. That's what I was getting at when I said the universal principles haven't been properly argued or widely accepted among most people who think on the issue. We have to who/what takes precedence not from a authoritarian or legal "gun in the room, argument from authority" perspective, but from a practical universal philosophical ethical angle.

And that type of argument requires years of experience on both sides of the issue with the ability to speak openly and honestly. Even if that honestly might piss a few people off.
 

dallow_bg

nods at old men
Yeah, you're taking it too far in scope. That's a whole other thread and encompasses far more than just pieces of digital entertainment.

I'm simply talking about this narrow slice of pie. 3DS rom filesharing, and a newly released 3ds flash card which is what the topic pertains to.
 

ArynCrinn

Banned
Yeah, you're taking it too far in scope. That's a whole other thread and encompasses far more than just pieces of digital entertainment.

I'm simply talking about this narrow slice of pie. 3DS rom filesharing, and a newly released 3ds flash card which is what the topic pertains to.

Yeah, you're probably right. :p

But 3DS roms already exist, I believe almost all of them. I'm not sure whether or not they'd be compatible with this new cart, or if it would require a different type of dumping method. But it will enable 3DS filesharing (with some cart someday) eventually. It was kind of a inevitability, as it will be with the Wii U likely, and PS4/Xbone. I still think Nintendo will do amazing with or without rampant filesharing, they always have. I don't think their future hinges in any way on this development. :p

But that sort of goes into my theories about filesharing being this type of distinct creature that doesn't occupy the same space as more traditional sitting duck ideological models.
 
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