The FBI is already watching these people. Or as they put it, "there was never any threat to the general public." McVeigh is not a good comparison. The FBI didn't stop him after he met up with McNichols either
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The FBI is already watching these people. Or as they put it, "there was never any threat to the general public." McVeigh is not a good comparison. The FBI didn't stop him after he met up with McNichols either
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
Ah now the bias comes out.
empty vessel
Member
That's not true in reality. Usually, the FBI targets a person or group, and conceives of the entire plot. It often requires a lot of cajoling and "peer" pressure by the agent to get the targets to even agree to act.
That isn't what happens in these situations.
That wouldn't have happened. I think many of you entertain very naive ideas about how law enforcement operates.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
That's rich for you to say.
Really feels like they make those guys look like a bigger threat than they actually are.
Though I also wouldn't like to take the chance that one of them might do some smaller attack. (given how easy it is to get a handgun in the US)
el retorno
Member
I posted this in my edit. Another one.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-501369_162-20128867/feds-online-novel-played-role-in-ga-militia-plot/
UnluckyKate
Member
Viral marketing for Batman Rises ?
el retorno
Member
He also didn´t hear about the giant Fox news hysteria when they released a report saying that rightwing radicals are a growing threat.
He lives in his own world
Hmm. That's pretty... disturbing. 'Coaxing' suspects into continuing their plots...
perryfarrell
Member
While I agree that the threat is manufactured, it's not just leftists and Muslism. Again, read what I linked earlier (http://www.esquire.com/features/waffle-house-terrorists-0212).
But the recipe is pretty simple:
* Find a group of disillusioned aimless impressionable people that want to fight the system in some way or other.
* Plant a mole, who pretends to be way more extreme than the rest, and who initiates the planning of the 'terrorist attack'.
* Arrest the people in the group when they appear to agree and/or go along with the undercover agent.
* Bingo, America's safer once again, the military-industrial complex is happy and prisons need to expanded some more (never mind the US has a crazy incarceration rate to begin with).
I'm not saying that all these people are kosher, but just that if you honestly believe all such people ought to be locked up, you better be willing to imprison shittons of people who 1) never presented a danger to society, and 2) would never have planned carrying out something illegal had they not been nudged and directed by these undercover cops.
Dude Abides
Banned
Did you notice that the conspiracy charges got tossed in the Hutatree case?
King Mystery
Member
Ever notice when these guys get caught, they ALWAYS get caught because they try to buy explosives from undercover agents? Terrorists/Anarchists sure have gotten lazy these days. I mean, I'm pretty sure there's enough information floating around the Internets on how to make your own explosives. But nooooo; they all want everything ready-made, like microwavable dinners.
Plus they knew how to make their own bombs.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
Bomb making seems to be a lost skill these days. Look at the crap the Time Square guy whipped up.
Neuromancer
Member
It's a reflection of the type of people the FBI is able to catch more than anything.
But that's alright, let's blow our counter-terrorism load on idiots who don't know how to use google.
It will look great in the papers.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
He was trained by the Pakistani Taliban, who hardly have their own Ibrahim al-Asiri.
PoweredBySoy
Banned
Don't worry, I got it.
ReBurn
Gold Member
*waves* Hi FBI!
They should learn something from their Columbian friends, who build freaking drug submarines(!)
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
Still you think he could make something better than that! He should have just tried running over people (though IIRC there is an example of one guy trying that and failing horribly).
Conspiracy nutjobs never cease to amuse.
Bolt Vanderhuge
Member
Are we sure they weren't just disgruntled Browns fans?
Have you actually read the story behind any of these plots/busts? It's not exactly a secret. The FBI's justification is usually, "we offered them several chances to end the plot"
I mean, it's written right in the OP that their original plan was to vandalize some signs on banks
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
They're both terrorists just different variations.
Dude Abides
Banned
Also amusing are people who don't understand what a conspiracy is.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
Good point, empty_vessel does need to do more research in the area.
ChiTownBuffalo
Either I made up lies about the Boston Bomber or I fell for someone else's crap. Either way, I have absolutely no credibility and you should never pay any attention to anything I say, no matter what the context. Perm me if I claim to be an insider
Well, here's the thing.
"Hey, you wanna blow up a bridge with explosives? I have some explosives I can sell you."
That's not entrapment.
You're not supposed to buy explosives to blow up a bridge.
"Hey, you wanna blow up a bridge with explosives? I have some explosives I can sell you."
That's not entrapment.
You're not supposed to buy explosives to blow up a bridge.
empty vessel
Member
You clearly don't have any experience with criminal matters and courts. Again, this is naivete. I don't expect people who do not deal with this kind of stuff up close to have a realistic understanding of the system and how it operates, but as somebody who works in this field, I can assure you that courts do not "strike down" improper law enforcement. In fact, that police officers openly and routinely lie on the witness stand, especially during suppression hearings, and that prosecutors and judges are well aware that this occurs but do nothing about it, is quite openly discussed in academic legal journals.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=testilying&hl=en&btnG=Search&as_sdt=1,44&as_sdtp=on
It's undoubtedly entrapment, although that particular legal doctrine has been whittled away to virtually nothing (not to mention easily avoided by routine perjury by law enforcement and their agents).
Hey, a manufactured right-wing plot! That is a rare find, my friend. "'This case demonstrates that we must remain vigilant in protecting our country from citizens within our own borders who threaten our safety and security,' she said. Indeed! Patriot Act justified.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
You'd be surprised how many people have so much trouble grasping that concept.
Someone is being a little testy now aren't they?
Meaning it's not entrapment, but I'll complain about it and pretend it is, even though as a lawyer, I know better.
That's what I'm saying. I'm merely pointing out that because they're being called anarchists specifically because the word "terrorist" has become synonymous with "brown dude in turban… maybe swings a cutlass."
When does it cross the line, though? We have an FBI informant posing as a radical jihadist, telling the target
This is at the very least reinforcing a violent worldview... and plausibly proposing one.New York Times said:
ChiTownBuffalo
Either I made up lies about the Boston Bomber or I fell for someone else's crap. Either way, I have absolutely no credibility and you should never pay any attention to anything I say, no matter what the context. Perm me if I claim to be an insider
To be fair, Cleveland has an even record with Pittsburgh
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
I just think it's for flavoring the story, then again my knowledge of terrorist groups was always based on a wide range of examples (Japanese Red Army, IRA, Secular-Left Wing Middle Eastern Terrorism, etc).
I do agree though, I would have used the phrase an anarchist terrorist group. I feel like you need to have something attached to terrorist, as (even today) it's broad as hell.
When the FBI holds a gun to their head and tells them to seek out someone to buy explosives.
I agree with this. Another comparison is the Hutaree militia who had the majority of the charges recently quietly dismissed for a similarly ridiculously over the top plot. It was amazing how much coverage it got when the arrests were made but somehow the media barely acknowledged the dismissal of most charges.
EDIT: I see Toxic Adam beat me to that comparison. Still, it's amazing how people take these things, internalize them as fitting a narrative, and then don't follow up on what actually happens with a lot of these cases. If it sounds too crazy to be true it usually is.
travisbickle
Member
If a crime could not have been committed without the FBI.
That's my line.
I think it had been crossed here (though I don't know the full details of this story).
Edit: re: left v. right thing, the FBI smashed the KKK with very little regard to the rule of law.
And I'm mostly okay with it.
No, that is the definition of entrapment. Law Enforcement making you do something you would not normally do.
Dude Abides
Banned
Do you find this post disingenuous? I do.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
Once again that's an Op-ed and the suspect could have left or stopped. He made his choice, which is why I'm happy the FBI finds these people before actual groups do (or they find actual groups).
That said with drones and other operations around the world groups are being forced to turn to nitwits more and more as the more skillset rich recruits are deterred from joining, the people will skills who are being killed are being killed at a rate where they can't be replaced by people with equal or even remotely equal skllsets. You could argue it's better to funnel them to actual groups because their goofs and more of a liability...but our luck of getting only idiots trying to detonate devices is going to eventually run out.
You current post? No. It seem genuine.
Navidson REC
Member
After reading this post, I looked at your avatar. Then at your username. I came to the conclusion:
The right man in the right place.
SteveWinwood
Member
I think it's hilarious that the reasonable smart people that frequent the Ron Paul thread are suddenly "insane" when they visit a normal thread.
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