Support NeoGAF

[KingSnake]

The problem is that even if you did that, there is still imams who don't preach in public. But it should be done. Imams that preach against gay rights, for attacks should be able to be punished.

I think there should be tougher laws against hate speech and religious service should not be exempt from it. An Imam who preaches in support of hating or even killing other people should suffer some serious consequences under the law.

 

[Magni]

Confirmed French-Tunisian, known to police but for "standard" crime, not terrorism.

Authorities have yet to formally identify the man, but told the local news agency BFM TV that an identity card found in the truck for a 31-year-old French-Tunisian citizen did belong to him.

The man was known to police for lower-level crimes, such as theft and violence, but had not been put on a watchlist by French intelligence services, Reuters said.

From The Guardian

 

[Phantast2k]

That is very anecdotal. As ISIS don't really have a foothold in Bangladesh and they are targeting youth with social media. Youth with access to social media almost by definition makes you well off in Bangladesh. Job situation, Education, Wealth are important factors, but that doesn't mean they are the end all.

They target youth everywhere.

I provide the anecdotal Dhaka argument against people's anecdotal "if only these terrorists went to school / were not poor" argument.

Again, so far no one posted evidence that this argument is true. In fact, evidence suggests that the opposite is true:
Isis documents leak reveals profile of average militant as young, well-educated but with only 'basic' knowledge of Islamic law | Middle East | News | The Independent

 

[Jindrax]

Again... Every few months these animals are killing people. And theres fuck all we can do...

Theres soldiers and cops all over the place and even that doesn't prevent anything.

Living in Brussels, this is starting to get to me. Am I supposed to do go to to work and high alert mode looking over my shoulder for the rest of my life? Avoid going outside of not nessacary?

 

[deefol]

This is really scary, if some terrorist can just snap one day and just drive on to the pavement like gta, I genuine don't feel safe

 

[cartoon_soldier]

The problem we are dealing with now is ISIS inspiring people who were already in trouble with law or have violent tendencies.

The guy involved here was said to be a local petty criminal. Same thing came out in the Belgian attacks.

These aren't hardcore Islamists. They are just inspired by ISIS to perform attacks so they can gain the coverage that comes with it being an ISIS inspired attack.

It will be very difficult to fight this kind of threats unless we all submit to full state sponsored surveillance.

 

[mrklaw]

i'm kind of thankful the truck wasn't filled with explosives could have done a lot more damage. Although then you're perhaps more likely to pop up on the intelligence radar. Literally just going and renting a truck is probably super easy, which is terrifying.

 

[Haunted]

Horrible, just absolutely horrible.

 

[Creamium]

Horrible news to wake up to, this is terrible. Thoughts to all the victims and the families/friends.

 

[Stereogatari]

It will be very difficult to fight this kind of threats unless we all submit to full state sponsored surveillance.

It doesn't have to be full State surveillance. Just surveillance on the places more likely to harbour these malcontents.

 

[sphagnum]

Compared to Europe?
Yes

I think you should take some of your own advice and not make assumptions about other countries.

We have 320 million people. We are as big, geographically, as your entire continent. We have a population with wildly different religious and political beliefs, every language imaginable, and just as many bad apples as good. A white supremacist Trump supporter from Indiana does not share the same culture as a Puerto Rican in New York (or a Puerto Rican in Puerto Rico) or a Hawaiian native or a Nisei Japanese on the west coast or a Muslim in Dearborn or a Louisianian with French ancestry or a radical Black Power activist or a bourgeois socialite in Manhattan or LA or a poor kid in Detroit or a poor kid in Appalachia or a middle class soccer mom or a native Alaskan or someone on a tribal reservation or a Jewish holocaust survivor or an Irish guy way too proud of his ancestry in Boston or a whatever. The only binding thing in the US is capitalism since we all live under it and generally most people support democracy and even that's not true.

 

[Waldini]

Again... Every few months these animals are killing people. And theres fuck all we can do...

Theres soldiers and cops all over the place and even that doesn't prevent anything.

Living in Brussels, this is starting to get to me. Am I supposed to do go to to work and high alert mode looking over my shoulder for the rest of my life? Avoid going outside of not nessacary?

Als dat jou geruststelt, waarom niet?

If that comforts you, why not? These attacks will continue to happen. And I fear they will become more frequent. There's NOTHING we can do about it either. Hell, could be your neighbours plotting an attack for fuck-knows-what.

I find it a goddamn miracle that nothing happened at EURO2016. Seeing as it was, presumably, ISIS's main-target.

 

[HariKari]

Am I supposed to do go to to work and high alert mode looking over my shoulder for the rest of my life? Avoid going outside of not nessacary?

It's cliche but that's really what these terrorists and their copycats want. A major part of their strategy is to instill fear in the countries they target, causing those countries to fundamentally change their beliefs while also increasing Islamophobia.

All you can really do is not give in, and have faith in those that are assinged to stop this sort of thing.

The more panic on display, the more that encourages ISIS and those inspired by them.

 

[2San]

They target youth everywhere.

I provide the anecdotal Dhaka argument against people's anecdotal "if only these terrorists went to school / were not poor" argument.

Again, so far no one posted evidence that this argument is true. In fact, evidence suggests that the opposite is true:
Isis documents leak reveals profile of average militant as young, well-educated but with only 'basic' knowledge of Islamic law | Middle East | News | The Independent

Edited my response before you posted this. I realized I was responding without thinking it through.

 

[jettpack]

video of the aftermath. i hate fox news but thats the only place i could find this video. so sad. my heart and prayers go out to france. why does this keep happening. I cant take this any more.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/5036150481001/warning-graphic-video-aftermath-of-attack-in-nice-france/#sp=show-clips

 

[Joni]

The problem we are dealing with now is ISIS inspiring people who were already in trouble with law or have violent tendencies.

The guy involved here was said to be a local petty criminal. Same thing came out in the Belgian attacks.

These aren't hardcore Islamists. They are just inspired by ISIS to perform attacks so they can gain the coverage that comes with it being an ISIS inspired attack.

It will be very difficult to fight this kind of threats unless we all submit to full state sponsored surveillance.

No, the Paris and Brussels attacked were real ISIS attacks. These people were radicalized in jail, they went to Syria and came back to fight for ISIS. They are not Orlando like lone wolves.

 

[Alx]

The problem we are dealing with now is ISIS inspiring people who were already in trouble with law or have violent tendencies.

The guy involved here was said to be a local petty criminal. Same thing came out in the Belgian attacks.

These aren't hardcore Islamists. They are just inspired by ISIS to perform attacks so they can gain the coverage that comes with it being an ISIS inspired attack.

It will be very difficult to fight this kind of threats unless we all submit to full state sponsored surveillance.

Even full on state surveillance wouldn't solve it, the police would just be overwhelmed by hundreds of thousands of potential criminals. You can't jail everybody nor forbid crowd gathering or truck driving (or whatever other way to kill people in everyday context).
The risk is just something we'll have to live with.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

Also as ISIS loses more and more territory their desperation will increase.

 

[UrbanRats]

The US has Racial tension because you have a mono cultural society but multi ethnic.

We in Europe have a multi cultural society that leads to clash.
And it is not just Muslim, it's French speaking people in Wallonia, it is Catholic and Protestant in Northern Ireland. Our many regional identity that wants to break off.

You shouldn't see everything via your us centric view

Isn't Lime from Europe?

 

[cartoon_soldier]

No, the Paris and Brussels attacked were real ISIS attacks. These people were radicalized in jail, they went to Syria and came back to fight for ISIS. They are not Orlando like lone wolves.

They were radicalized yes. I didn't say they weren't. What I am saying is that ISIS seems to be influencing people who already had trouble with the law. Not all Brussels attackers went to Syria either.

Even full on state surveillance wouldn't solve it, the police would just be overwhelmed by hundreds of thousands of potential criminals. You can't jail everybody nor forbid crowd gathering or truck driving (or whatever other way to kill people in everyday context).
The risk is just something we'll have to live with.

Agreed, I was just saying that people are asking for solutions and well that is the best solution. And that solution is not a good one.

What Europe does need is a more coordinated intelligence agency. We saw all the intelligence lapses during the Paris and Brussels attacks.

 

[Freezie KO]

Has this link been consistent throughout history or are you taking the actions of a few in the last 2-3 decades as representative of a 1400yr old religion? Islamic terrorism is just like any other form of terrorism: a complex phenomena that is difficult to explain and where the answers always have to be sought in history. That’s true for Irish terrorism, Socialist terrorism, Separatist terrorism, etc. Nobody would explain away the IRA as an inherently Christian problem despite the presence of a religious dimension in the Irish conflict. The real elephant in the room is the existence of an inequality of suffering that has existed for centuries at this point. An inequality with Whites at the top and non-Whites at the bottom. That sentence alone will probably be reason enough for some people to dismiss the rest of this post. There goes ‘the racism’ again, the ‘historical justification’, the ‘blaming of the West’. Just deal with the real problem: ‘your religion’! But this inequality of suffering is perhaps the most important part of Islamic/Middle Eastern terrorism. My father, a liberal and pretty moderate Muslim, always taught me about the ways Muslims around the world have suffered at the hands of the West. It’s probably an important part in the upbringing of most Muslims, especially those living in Europe. And it isn’t wrong. Through political coups, sponsorship of tyrants, the creation of the State of Israel and military interventions Muslims have been tortured, forced to flee and killed by Western hands, even if sometimes indirectly. This suffering at ‘our hands’ and its rather immense size is never really felt in the West because Muslim, Arabic and brown lives are devalued so much. I mean, two decades into this century we have seen the complete destabilization of the Middle East. The situation in Iraq is downright chaotic and it’s had real destructive consequences in the entire region. Are these developments the result of Islam? Hell no, they’re the result of a military intervention by the US and the UK (and allies) that was based on either misjudged information or outright lies (most Muslims will believe they were lies by the way). Similarly, are the actions of violent Palestinians the result of Islam, or of their oppression by Western-backed Israel? Ignoring the political and historical reasons behind attacks like these is just taking the easy way out. And if you’ve just read all that and thought ‘get outta here with your whataboutism or whatever’ than I don’t know what else to say. A handful of attacks have certain elements in the West ready to adopt a philosophy of a ‘War of Civilizations’. So what do you think 2 centuries of colonization, war, coups, military intervention and drone strikes have done to Muslims across the world? If there were to be a War of Civilizations most Muslims would have no problem pointing out the aggressor and victim and, by sheer numbers alone, they wouldn’t be wrong.

Now, I just want to mention that this isn’t a defence of Islam, though it could be seen as a defence of Muslims. I don’t believe in Islam anymore for a reason. I think Islam, like most religions, is extremely patriarchal, controlling of sexuality and intolerant towards those thinking too differently. Even those things are more complex than just evil and backwards however. I also think that the secularization of Europe had more to do with certain economic and societal developments mostly outside the control of the people themselves and that changes in morality were more often the result of those developments than their cause. And though Islam has problems of its own, I am still confident that it isn’t immune to that process of secularization but that things will progress roughly how they’ve progressed within the Christian world. I’d be more than happy to have a conversation about Islam and to talk about the issues (not all of which I agree with) you mention in your second paragraph but I think taking Islam as the main or even merely one of the more important lenses through which to analyse terrorism is just flat out wrong. Modern day terrorism cannot be discussed with talking about politics and history. Otherwise we’re just talking around the real, difficult issues.

Overall, really good post, although I put more blame on Islam than you did. Nevertheless, I find it particularly interesting how your father, a moderate Muslim would always go on about the crimes of the West against Muslims. That makes me think that he never even felt "a part of the West" in the way of true integration.

There's obviously a lot of wrong the West has done, but Islamic nations aren't saints either. There's a lot of blood on their hands, and the idea that Muslims are solely a victimized group rings hollow. Even the eternal boogeyman of the Islamic world - Israel - pales in comparison if she were to be judged by the standards of her neighbors.

This goes to the idea of Muslim humiliation that has often been discussed. That Islam basically lost the war of ideas.

Secular democracies have won - financially, intellectually, and culturally. Islamic nations lost. And to prevent this lashing out, we, the West, need to show these cultural losers the path to join us in the league of not-insane nations.

 

[HarryHengst]

Western Culture is by definition past the religious bullshit. Renaissance > Enlightenment > Industrial Revolution.

Hmm yes. Witch hunts are such an amazing example of getting past religious bullshit. Just like the Pilgrims were completely rational and not at all completely convinced that demons and Satan were real and everyone should follow their way of living. And its totally not like we just traded religion for capitalism or anything.

In fact, i would say that the early and high middle ages were a more rational time than the Renaissance and Enlightenment. At least in early middle ages the Church held the position that witches and all were not real but just superstition that people should stop believing. Renaissance and Enlightenment thinkers combined their scientific interests with all kinds of mystical, occult and religious ideas. Newton tried to find or create the philosophers stone for example, and in fact his scientific studies were mostly just a way of helping him interpret the Bible.

But those parts are conveniently left out of the story of the rational Western society.

 

[MistakenMobius]

Hmm yes. Witch hunts are such an amazing example of getting past religious bullshit. Just like the Pilgrims were completely rational and not at all completely convinced that demons and Satan were real and everyone should follow their way of living. And its totally not like we just traded religion for capitalism or anything.

In fact, i would say that the early and high middle ages were a more rational time than the Renaissance and Enlightenment. At least in early middle ages the Church held the position that witches and all were not real but just superstition that people should stop believing. Renaissance and Enlightenment thinkers combined their scientific interests with all kinds of mystical, occult and religious ideas. Newton tried to find or create the philosophers stone for example, and in fact his scientific studies were mostly just a way of helping him interpret the Bible.

But those parts are conveniently left out of the story of the rational Western society.

Not in France

 

[Mad Season]

Sick to my stomach

 

[MarkMclovin]

RIP to those victims. Feel so sorry for them.

 

[Azoor]

Damn these ISIS pigs... damn them all to hell !

 

[NEO0MJ]

Terrible news, condolences to the victims' families. I wonder if republicans in the US will use this as an example of why banning guns doesn't help.

 

[Stereogatari]

Hmm yes. Witch hunts are such an amazing example of getting past religious bullshit. Just like the Pilgrims were completely rational and not at all completely convinced that demons and Satan were real and everyone should follow their way of living. And its totally not like we just traded religion for capitalism or anything.

In fact, i would say that the early and high middle ages were a more rational time than the Renaissance and Enlightenment. At least in early middle ages the Church held the position that witches and all were not real but just superstition that people should stop believing. Renaissance and Enlightenment thinkers combined their scientific interests with all kinds of mystical, occult and religious ideas. Newton tried to find or create the philosophers stone for example, and in fact his scientific studies were mostly just a way of helping him interpret the Bible.

But those parts are conveniently left out of the story of the rational Western society.

Western Culture has had a firmware update.

Muslim Culture hasn't.

 

[Lamel]

Damn, RIP to all the victims, this is terrible.

Convenient? It's the truth. I know Muslims that live 100% modern Western lifestyles, don't pray, don't do anything religious (except avoid pork). Can they really be called Muslim?

One of my close female friends has tattoos, drinks alcohol, has pre-marital relationships, goes out dancing with her friends. Literally as far from Islam as you can get. But if I say Allah doesn't exist she loses her mind. I don't care if she thinks she's Muslim, she most certainly isn't. Except for not eating pork lol. I don't eat pork either.

A Theist from a Cultural Muslim background, but not an actual Muslim. I've read the Koran, she never has. She thinks she's a Muslim because to her it's tied to her ethnic identity. By that definition I'm a Muslim Atheist.

Yeah but who are you to decide that they are not the true muslims dude? Up to what level of devoutness makes them true?

This can apply to Christians, hindus, any religion...The vast majority of christians in the USA don't do most of the stuff from their scripture.

 

[Dayner_Kurdi]

Also as ISIS loses more and more territory their desperation will increase.

more like spreading the seed of next ISIS

 

[Bonfires Down]

The number of dead from suicide attacks per year worldwide:



I don't think it's rocket science to guess what the main cause might be. The vast majority of those are in the middle east btw.

 

[Phantast2k]

Even full on state surveillance wouldn't solve it, the police would just be overwhelmed by hundreds of thousands of potential criminals. You can't jail everybody nor forbid crowd gathering or truck driving (or whatever other way to kill people in everyday context).
The risk is just something we'll have to live with.

I still think it's weird how the occurrence in France / Belgium is so much higher than in other EU countries. It may have been bad luck so far, but I would probably start to question my security agencies if I were French / Belgian:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_European_Union

Edited my response before you posted this. I realized I was responding without thinking it through.

Got it.

 

[spekkeh]

This goes to the idea of Muslim humiliation that has often been discussed. That Islam basically lost the war of ideas.

Secular democracies have won - financially, intellectually, and culturally. Islamic nations lost. And to prevent this lashing out, we, the West, need to show these cultural losers the path to join us in the league of not-insane nations.

Agreed. The problem however is that they forever follow a book that promises them the worldly power. Politics and religion are (can be made) separate in Christianity, but denouncing political Islam means denouncing part of their faith.

 

[spekkeh]

I still think it's weird how the occurrence in France / Belgium is so much higher than in other EU countries. It may have been bad luck so far, but I would probably start to question my security agencies if I were French / Belgian:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_European_Union



Got it.

Not that strange, it has to do with uneducated North African seasonal laborers that came during the seventies and stayed. These went to France, Belgium and the Netherlands. The only weird thing is that the Netherlands has so far not been hit.

 

[Weckum]

I still think it's weird how the occurrence in France / Belgium is so much higher than in other EU countries. It may have been bad luck so far, but I would probably start to question my security agencies if I were French / Belgian:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_European_Union



Got it.

It's not just security agencies, it's society as a whole that is failing in these countries

@Spekkeh: well, Van Gogh got killed.

And yeah, it's disenfranchised kids from these first generation immigrants that are usually the perps in these cases. Horrible to see.

 

[KingSnake]

I still think it's weird how the occurrence in France / Belgium is so much higher than in other EU countries. It may have been bad luck so far, but I would probably start to question my security agencies if I were French / Belgian

Not only security agencies, I think authorities in general seem most of the time overwhelmed/unprepared. We had this discussion in the thread about the Bruxelles attack. Look what happened in France with the hooligans too. Most of the time the authorities seems to act as a reaction rather than plan/prevent. Exception in this case being Euro 2016 in terms of terrorism.

 

[Ashes]

The number of dead from suicide attacks per year worldwide:



I don't think it's rocket science to guess what the main cause might be. The vast majority of those are in the middle east btw.

war begets war.

 

[G.ZZZ]

Western Culture has had a firmware update.

Muslim Culture hasn't.

To be frank they had an update too, but it was toward more integralism.

Also the argument of past sins of western nations is so tired . Many countries were on the losing end of things in history, but If the middle east turned as it did a lot has to do with their own history, especially with the saudi 's family interests in keeping the hegemony of the Muslim world and the centuries old divide between sunni and Shia. Just blaming the West for everything is an eurocentric reductive view and propagate a narrative of "good Vs evil" that make no sense when history has always been about conflicts of interests.

 

[E-phonk]

I still think it's weird how the occurrence in France / Belgium is so much higher than in other EU countries. It may have been bad luck so far, but I would probably start to question my security agencies if I were French / Belgian:

Belgium also had more syria fighters. Partly because sharia4belgium recruited/radicalised a lot of young people, but also because Belgium has always been focused on it's internal struggle between french and dutch speaking parts.
This has taken so much political time that a lot of other problems have been under-estimated, especially in a city like Brussels.

Because of the difficult structure Belgium has, Brussels has been neglected and is often used as a scapegoat in political debate.

The reasons why france is a high risk target has a lot to do with their stance on religion being a strictly private affair, and their historical involvement in the middle east (like syria) in the previous century.
France also has a high status in the middle east, as one of the more important "western" countries.
This makes them a perfect high profile "enemy/target".

 

[Hoya Destroyer]

Its a shocking event. 80 innocents dead? Rip to them all. Its hard to believe one truck could do so much damage. muslim terrorists in Israel have used similar truck tactics to kill people there too, I think?

 

[Joni]

They were radicalized yes. I didn't say they weren't. What I am saying is that ISIS seems to be influencing people who already had trouble with the law. Not all Brussels attackers went to Syria either.

It is not that weird. It is an organization that started in jail where radicalized people came into contact with people they could radicalize. As for their travels to Syria, four out of five were known to have been in Syria, the fifth was the brother of one of those other four.

 

[Freezie KO]

Agreed. The problem however is that they forever follow a book that promises them the worldly power. Politics and religion are (can be made) separate in Christianity, but denouncing political Islam means denouncing part of their faith.

With the Quran as Muhammad's big rulebook, it does seem that you're right. Islam has way more of an inherently political aspect to it. But when you had kings who claimed divine right, Christianity was very much intrinsically tied to the State.

The separation wasn't always there with Christianity. We just need to catch Islam up by about 600 years.

 

[orochi91]

Convenient? It's the truth. I know Muslims that live 100% modern Western lifestyles, don't pray, don't do anything religious (except avoid pork). Can they really be called Muslim?

One of my close female friends has tattoos, drinks alcohol, has pre-marital relationships, goes out dancing with her friends. Literally as far from Islam as you can get. But if I say Allah doesn't exist she loses her mind. I don't care if she thinks she's Muslim, she most certainly isn't. Except for not eating pork lol. I don't eat pork either.

A Theist from a Cultural Muslim background, but not an actual Muslim. I've read the Koran, she never has. She thinks she's a Muslim because to her it's tied to her ethnic identity. By that definition I'm a Muslim Atheist.

The Shahada is all that's required to be a Muslim.

Anything more or less, in terms of religiosity, is a personal matter for that individual.

You don't get to dictate who is a Muslim and who isn't; there are degrees to religiosity.

 

[Alx]

I still think it's weird how the occurrence in France / Belgium is so much higher than in other EU countries. It may have been bad luck so far, but I would probably start to question my security agencies if I were French / Belgian:

It's not really a problem of security or intelligence agencies (although you can always suppose they could do better), France has a long history with islamic extremism. Part of it can be linked to its colonial history (there were many attacks linked to Algeria between the 60s and the 90s), which still have consequences in today's politics (there are currently French soldiers deployed in Mali to counter local extremism).
France is one of the go-to targets for extremists, both for practical and symbolic reasons. Notice how the Belgian terrorists went all the way to Paris, and bombed Brussels only as a plan B.

 

[Condom]

Not that strange, it has to do with uneducated North African seasonal laborers that came during the seventies and stayed. These went to France, Belgium and the Netherlands. The only weird thing is that the Netherlands has so far not been hit.

We have a much better policy when it comes to tackling bad neighborhoods and actually make them livable with proper social cohesion.

Still, I'm sure Amsterdam must be high on the hit list for ISIS.

 

[Dayner_Kurdi]

my only fear that the next waves of attack will become even complex like chemical or nuclear...

 

[Ashes]

With the Quran as Muhammad's big rulebook, it does seem that you're right. Islam has way more of an inherently political aspect to it. But when you had kings who claimed divine right, Christianity was very much intrinsically tied to the State.

The separation wasn't always there with Christianity. We just need to catch Islam up by about 600 years.

Spoken like somebody who has absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

 

[MistakenMobius]

my only fear that the next waves of attack will become even complex like chemical or nuclear...

Too complex, too big.

Why bother when 1 guy with a truck or 5 with explosives and guns can already wreck the economy.

If there ever was chemical or nuclear, all bets are off on what will happen.

 

[Iriscomeback]

Not that strange, it has to do with uneducated North African seasonal laborers that came during the seventies and stayed. These went to France, Belgium and the Netherlands. The only weird thing is that the Netherlands has so far not been hit.

Not that strange. Muslims in the Netherlands aren't that radicalised and our methods of keeping it that way have been very effective so far. Let's hope we can keep it that way.

 

[Wind's Howling]

Unbelievable.

Woke up to this news. Saw the cellphone footage of people laying in the streets. It was such a massacre.

You have a truck plowing through the boulevard, people further up are cheering and laughing because of the fireworks, and then you just get hit by a force of some tons.

The only comfort is that, for most, they did not even see this coming and died instantly. It is the only comfort I can find. Such a weak, pathetic attack.