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[UnluckyKate]

Two friends of my parents that I known for 25 years aren't answering the phone. They live and work in Nice. They were like taking care of me when I was a baby. I always knew them like a second pair of parents. Shit I hope they are okay.

 

[Dilly]

That is utterly ridiculous. I am Muslim, well-integrated, well-educated and I live in a Nordic country as well. Living in a western secular country and being a Muslim is not a problem whatsoever.

Now, there are surely some shitty imams thinking they live in 1910 Cairo, that doesn't mean that people listen to them.

And this sharia stuff is bs, always the same lie. "They want sharia in Sweden", well ask around.

I'd say the last few years are a prime example of people listening to them. A small group of followers can do huge amounts of damage to the fabric of society.

 

[zoku88]

You do realize that the Crusades was a Christian response after hundreds of years of Muslims invading and conquering Christian territory that they eventually fought and repelled them back to their own lands. It was very much a defensive effort.

Actually, the crusades were started by the pope (I want to say one of the Innocents, but it's been years) in an effort to get christian nations to stop fighting amongst themselves.

Back then, fighting was seen as an honorable/prestigious thing to do. So, the pope directed their efforts to the Muslims.


I'm not sure what you could possibly be thinking of it as a defensive effort. Maybe the reconquista? Even that wasn't really defensive...

 

[KingSnake]

My country, Turkey, would be so much better with less Muslims. In Turkey the areas with less Muslims (well less religious Muslims, but I don't think of them as Muslim) are the best, most fun, most chill places.

While I see your point, I don't think that guy is making any difference between more religious and less religious Muslims.

 

[Stereogatari]

Actually, the crusades were started by the pope (I want to say one of the Innocents, but it's been years) in an effort to get christian nations to stop fighting amongst themselves.

Back then, fighting was seen as an honorable/prestigious thing to do. So, the pope directed their efforts to the Muslims.


I'm not sure what you could possibly be thinking of it as a defensive effort. Maybe the reconquista? Even that wasn't really defensive...

The Reconquista was a genocide.

 

[TCRS]

what a news to wake up to. 84 dead, run over by a truck. absolutely terrible.

RIP

 

[sirap]

My country, Turkey, would be so much better with less Muslims. In Turkey the areas with less Muslims (well less religious Muslims, but I don't think of them as Muslim) are the best, most fun, most chill places.

I don't even know what this means. So a "less religious" Muslim shouldn't be considered Muslim, but extremists who blow themselves up and kill people are? How convenient.

 

[Arksy]

That is utterly ridiculous. I am Muslim, well-integrated, well-educated and I live in a Nordic country as well. Living in a western secular country and being a Muslim is not a problem whatsoever.

Now, there are surely some shitty imams thinking they live in 1910 Cairo, that doesn't mean that people listen to them.

And this sharia stuff is bs, always the same lie. "They want sharia in Sweden", well ask around.

How do you find it being a well integrated Muslim in a Nordic country? I'm not Muslim but I look Muslim, and am genuinely worried about the levels of discrimination going on in Europe right now...but I have a bunch of Swedish friends who studied here in Australia who keep inviting me to come hang out over there.

 

[Yazan]

I'd say the last few years are a prime example of people listening to them. A small group of followers can do huge amounts of damage to the fabric of society.

Indeed, but it is usually not even these 'sharia loving crazy imams' that are involved in the recruitment or brainwashing. It is rather young people without a deep education in the religion that spread the idea of jihad, die as a hero and all other bs things.

Most Muslims, devout or not, want to live, be a part of society and enjoy life.

 

[danthefan]

See, this is the kind of hateful shit that people should be outraged of, not the critics on the concept of a religion. That's what is harmful, generalising hate for the people based on their religion, not the fact that that religion's concept are questioned.

Poland seems to be a good ground for bigots. I wonder if it has to do with the education or the Catholicism.

Are you for real? Having a go at the poster for generalising (which they did) and then finish up with a massive generalisation of your own. Well done.

 

[Marvel]

Oh my god... rip to the victims

 

[StayDead]

Two friends of my parents that I known for 25 years aren't answering the phone. They live and work in Nice. They were like taking care of me when I was a baby. I always knew them like a second pair of parents. Shit I hope they are okay.

Oh god. I hope they turn up safe

 

[Pancake Mix]

The Reconquista was a genocide.

No doubt, I think that was the implication he was making there.

 

[Donos]

I don't even know what this means. So a "less religious" Muslim shouldn't be considered Muslim, but extremists who blow themselves up and kill people are? How convenient.

I think he want's to say that radicals/fanatics are not muslims in his eyes because they use islam to justify their horrible acts while the overwhelmingly majority of muslims are peacful.

 

[Dayner_Kurdi]

there a lot of reason why a normal muslim can't speak against or criticize any Islamic scholars that misinterpret the Quran:

almost if not all Islamic scholar have a conservative mindset "blame the west for our problem, don't help them with their". most people here in Saudi believe that ISIS is just another entity created by CIA. Iran or Israel and believe that we have no part to blame for all of this, anyone tried speak against the current them get label as "enemy of Islam" and all his/her words become null in the eye of the public, like when this happen for one of the Saudi Scholar.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/11/w...ia-islam-wahhabism-religious-police.html?_r=2

 

[Famassu]

He was also a Muslim who claimed the attack in the name of Allah.

At some point people will stop giving Islam, and religion as a whole, a free pass on this. Islamic terrorism is a fact and it happens, across the globe, every day. Now where do we go from here?

The problem isn't that Islam has been radicalized. It's that radicalization has been "islamized". These horrible murderous dickwads would exist in the places that they come from no matter what the religion. The kind of poor, inequal, generally poorly educated, war ridden, unstable etc. regions are breeding grounds for dissatisfaction and radicalization. Even if there was no Islam they'd just use another religion or other reasons to justify their horrible beliefs & actions. Islam is just a handy excuse for these horrible people to act like they do.

I mean, western world has their own neo nazis, KKKs & people like Breivik who are capable of just as horrible acts as ISIS and they need no Islam for it.

 

[spekkeh]

I don't even know what this means. So a "less religious" Muslim shouldn't be considered Muslim, but extremists who blow themselves up and kill people are? How convenient.

I think he means the type that identifies as cultural Muslim, or is named that by the state (who obviously wants to inflate Sunni numbers), but are drunk every weekend and never see the inside of a mosque.

 

[spekkeh]

The problem isn't that Islam has been radicalized. It's that radicalization has been "islamized". These horrible murderous dickwads would exist in the places that they come from no matter what the religion. The kind of poor, inequal, generally poorly educated, war ridden, unstable etc. regions are breeding grounds for dissatisfaction and radicalization. Even if there was no Islam they'd just use another religion or other reasons to justify their horrible beliefs & actions. Islam is just a handy excuse for these horrible people to act like they do.

I mean, western world has their own neo nazis, KKKs & people like Breivik who are capable of just as horrible acts as ISIS and they need no Islam for it.

Yes though obviously Islam acts as a catalyst. Non Islamic disenfranchised just rage on forums.

 

[Stereogatari]

I don't even know what this means. So a "less religious" Muslim shouldn't be considered Muslim, but extremists who blow themselves up and kill people are? How convenient.

Convenient? It's the truth. I know Muslims that live 100% modern Western lifestyles, don't pray, don't do anything religious (except avoid pork). Can they really be called Muslim?

One of my close female friends has tattoos, drinks alcohol, has pre-marital relationships, goes out dancing with her friends. Literally as far from Islam as you can get. But if I say Allah doesn't exist she loses her mind. I don't care if she thinks she's Muslim, she most certainly isn't. Except for not eating pork lol. I don't eat pork either.

A Theist from a Cultural Muslim background, but not an actual Muslim. I've read the Koran, she never has. She thinks she's a Muslim because to her it's tied to her ethnic identity. By that definition I'm a Muslim Atheist.

 

[Majine]

People will radicalize themselves somehow. If it's not involving Islam, it's something else. You need to change the heart of the people, not go after the 1.7 billion people.

 

[dangeraaron10]

I can't take much more of this. Every week, or every day, there's some major tragedy. In western countries, in middle-eastern ones, everywhere. France can't have a fucking break can it? Children dead in the streets for all to see. But few of us can ever witness the horror folks suffer in the Middle-East and Africa every day. This hits closer to home.

Charlie Hebdo, Paris, now Nice. Damnit. Fucking Damnit.

And here I've recently considered a media blackout as much as possible, due to shit like this making worse an already persistent depression. I have no stake in this, yet it's hard to keep my head screwed on straight and not be incredibly hateful and spiteful. But to maggots that run over 80 people and kill them in cold blood? I spare no venom.

Stay strong France. Something has to be done. Swiftly but sensibly...can it though? How do you prepare for shit like this without mass profiling? They're just using fucking vehicles now! Gun control? Who needs guns anymore, just hijack a semi and plow through a 4th of July picnic for christ's sake. People on here say to not live in fear, but it's getting quite hard to do right now, even in the States where this is much less common and we actually ARE eyeballing any suspicious nutter via NSA.

I also hear people in this GAF thread still missing family in Nice. I only hope you can reach them as soon as possible. Again, stay strong.

Edit: Changing the heart of the people? How? There are those among us who cannot be reasoned with. From the vile fuckers committing the atrocities, (RIGHTLY) outraged civilians who want the death to stop, and those who would use such tragedy to push agendas. Not even being bitter here, just highly curious as it seems like an ideal solution, even if a very drawn out one that might not work as intended.

 

[Phantast2k]

Is there anything to support the notion that joining ISIS / being inspired for terror by ISIS is somehow connected to a person's:

- job situation
- education
- wealth

?

I'm sorry, but it seems like people are pulling out of their asses.

For instance if we look at the recent Dhaka attack we'll see that:

Dhaka Isil terrorists were drawn from well-educated Bangladeshi elite

 

[davepoobond]

Really, you're comparing that to widespread support for prison or the death penalty for homosexuality? And for Sharia law?

The point is western culture is susceptible to Religous BS too. It doesn't even stop there, anyway.

 

[Cyneck]

As a Muslim, I can't help but feel guilty for all of this. It's really becoming truly unbearable to be apart of this religion.

 

[Pusherman]

This kind of dismissive thinking wilfully ignores the very clear links between the religion of Islam and countless, ongoing mass casualty terrorist attacks. Why is it when one of these attacks occurs you could safely assume from the outset it is committed by some Islamic fanatic? I wish people would stop avoiding the elephant in the room.

Of course people aren't saying anything as extreme as 'all muslims support terrorism' or blaming all of them (nor should they) but there is something obviously, clearly incompatible between the beliefs of this religion, human rights and modern culture. The statistics and opinion polls etc support this.

Has this link been consistent throughout history or are you taking the actions of a few in the last 2-3 decades as representative of a 1400yr old religion? Islamic terrorism is just like any other form of terrorism: a complex phenomena that is difficult to explain and where the answers always have to be sought in history. That’s true for Irish terrorism, Socialist terrorism, Separatist terrorism, etc. Nobody would explain away the IRA as an inherently Christian problem despite the presence of a religious dimension in the Irish conflict. The real elephant in the room is the existence of an inequality of suffering that has existed for centuries at this point. An inequality with Whites at the top and non-Whites at the bottom. That sentence alone will probably be reason enough for some people to dismiss the rest of this post. There goes ‘the racism’ again, the ‘historical justification’, the ‘blaming of the West’. Just deal with the real problem: ‘your religion’! But this inequality of suffering is perhaps the most important part of Islamic/Middle Eastern terrorism. My father, a liberal and pretty moderate Muslim, always taught me about the ways Muslims around the world have suffered at the hands of the West. It’s probably an important part in the upbringing of most Muslims, especially those living in Europe. And it isn’t wrong. Through political coups, sponsorship of tyrants, the creation of the State of Israel and military interventions Muslims have been tortured, forced to flee and killed by Western hands, even if sometimes indirectly. This suffering at ‘our hands’ and its rather immense size is never really felt in the West because Muslim, Arabic and brown lives are devalued so much. I mean, two decades into this century we have seen the complete destabilization of the Middle East. The situation in Iraq is downright chaotic and it’s had real destructive consequences in the entire region. Are these developments the result of Islam? Hell no, they’re the result of a military intervention by the US and the UK (and allies) that was based on either misjudged information or outright lies (most Muslims will believe they were lies by the way). Similarly, are the actions of violent Palestinians the result of Islam, or of their oppression by Western-backed Israel? Ignoring the political and historical reasons behind attacks like these is just taking the easy way out. And if you’ve just read all that and thought ‘get outta here with your whataboutism or whatever’ than I don’t know what else to say. A handful of attacks have certain elements in the West ready to adopt a philosophy of a ‘War of Civilizations’. So what do you think 2 centuries of colonization, war, coups, military intervention and drone strikes have done to Muslims across the world? If there were to be a War of Civilizations most Muslims would have no problem pointing out the aggressor and victim and, by sheer numbers alone, they wouldn’t be wrong.

Now, I just want to mention that this isn’t a defence of Islam, though it could be seen as a defence of Muslims. I don’t believe in Islam anymore for a reason. I think Islam, like most religions, is extremely patriarchal, controlling of sexuality and intolerant towards those thinking too differently. Even those things are more complex than just evil and backwards however. I also think that the secularization of Europe had more to do with certain economic and societal developments mostly outside the control of the people themselves and that changes in morality were more often the result of those developments than their cause. And though Islam has problems of its own, I am still confident that it isn’t immune to that process of secularization but that things will progress roughly how they’ve progressed within the Christian world. I’d be more than happy to have a conversation about Islam and to talk about the issues (not all of which I agree with) you mention in your second paragraph but I think taking Islam as the main or even merely one of the more important lenses through which to analyse terrorism is just flat out wrong. Modern day terrorism cannot be discussed with talking about politics and history. Otherwise we’re just talking around the real, difficult issues.

 

[jediyoshi]

My country, Turkey, would be so much better with less Muslims. In Turkey the areas with less Muslims (well less religious Muslims, but I don't think of them as Muslim) are the best, most fun, most chill places.

What a thread.

 

[Jb]

The problem isn't that Islam has been radicalized. It's that radicalization has been "islamized". These horrible murderous dickwads would exist in the places that they come from no matter what the religion. The kind of poor, inequal, generally poorly educated, war ridden, unstable etc. regions are breeding grounds for dissatisfaction and radicalization. Even if there was no Islam they'd just use another religion or other reasons to justify their horrible beliefs & actions. Islam is just a handy excuse for these horrible people to act like they do.

I mean, western world has their own neo nazis, KKKs & people like Breivik who are capable of just as horrible acts as ISIS and they need no Islam for it.

They're not responsible for nearly as many deaths as daesh and other Islamist entities are but I agree that deranged losers will always find a justification for their hateful actions, religion or not.

 

[B!TCH]

One thing that makes me scratch my head is that Muslims have been living in the west for decades. Why is it only in the last decade and a half that we've seen these levels of sustained attacks? Hell even the near constant suicide attacks in many Muslim countries is relatively a new phenomenon. What changed in the interpretation of the scripture to suddenly excuse this behaviour?

RIP to the victims, and my heart is with the people of France tonight.

It is very strange but I believe this is the main culprit here, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_revival

 

[Ethelwulf]

Fucking hell not again

 

[Timedog]

I think it was only a matter of time until this sort of approach to terrorism was used. I think about it whenever I see big groups on tv or on the internet, ever since the Boston bombings. Holy shit this is fucking terrible, and even more worrying how easy it is to kill a bunch of people with a big vehicle. RIP victims. I'm so sorry, France.

I don't know how we fix this issue.

 

[Pancake Mix]

The point is western culture is susceptible to Religous BS too. It doesn't even stop there, anyway.

Not as susceptible, and places like Northern Europe were moving past it.

 

[Velcoro]

Two friends of my parents that I known for 25 years aren't answering the phone. They live and work in Nice. They were like taking care of me when I was a baby. I always knew them like a second pair of parents. Shit I hope they are okay.

Me too dude

 

[KingSnake]

Are you for real? Having a go at the poster for generalising (which they did) and then finish up with a massive generalisation of your own. Well done.

I didn't say that most Poles are bigots, if you don't see the difference. And I don't think that.

My statement "Poland seems to be a good ground for bigots" is based on the latest election results (edit: no, I don't think all their voters are bigots but a good part of it are) and things like this:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...f-thousands-join-Warsaw-nationalist-demo.html

and Polish government position in the refugee crisis.

And it's not helped by the Polish posters on GAF. Maybe GAF attracts more bigots somehow, who knows, so I'm not building a statistic based on this last bit.

 

[Blablurn]

My wife's cousin was at the celebrations. Says he saw the truck coming only for it to zag at the last moments to his left.

Terrible shit going on.

damn

 

[Stereogatari]

The point is western culture is susceptible to Religous BS too. It doesn't even stop there, anyway.

Western Culture is by definition past the religious bullshit. Renaissance > Enlightenment > Industrial Revolution.

 

[Majine]

As a Muslim, I can't help but feel guilty for all of this. It's really becoming truly unbearable to be apart of this religion.

You need to separate yourself from the expectation that everyone who share your similarities are as good as you. There are assholes in every facet of life. It doesn't and shouldn't affect who you are and what you stand for.

 

[Green Yoshi]

Why does the world seem to not be doing anything about this?

Look at Israel. It is really tough to protect a country from terrorists. French would not be the same anymore if they go this way.

 

[dangeraaron10]

As a Muslim, I can't help but feel guilty for all of this. It's really becoming truly unbearable to be apart of this religion.

Let's make something very clear here: You aren't running over people with trucks. And as much as it's easy for my fellows to not see clearly while being upset, Muslims have the most boots on the ground to combat ISIS and their ilk. They are also having their villages raided and sacked wholesale in their home countries.

I'll admit, I dislike all forms of organized religion, and the human race would be a far better species without it now that we have established law and morality. I came from a Christian/Methodist family who were absolutely distraught when I told them I was an Atheist.

 

[E-phonk]

I'm not sure how anyone can still deny that there are very real problems within this religion. Or at least not have to constantly state that not all Muslims are terrorists. We know that, the majority just want peaceful lives like anyone else, sadly the minority of this religion are one of the biggest issues we face when it comes to fanatics. They kill the innocent and enable other (right wing) fanatics to spread their hate.

That's a direct result of the times we live in. Extreme islam wasn't a threat in the 1950's for example. It's a recent phenomenon.

The movement started with people like Sayyid Qutb who were very much against western values and who wrote a very influencial book called milestones that called for a very strict interpretation of the Quran.
His ideas had a lot of influence on people like Osama Bin Laden, and they became widespread with a minority of what i'd compare to the extreme-right in Islam.

It's interesting to read up on this if you want to understand where all of this is coming from.

My boyfriend and I are supposed to go to Nice by plane next week to see my family.

I don't know what to think.

Don't worry - in general Europe is still a very very safe place to be compared to a lot of other regions in the world.

 

[daviyoung]

this is disgusting

 

[DrFurbs]

I wonder what Frances response to this is going to be.

Rip people x

 

[Joni]

Turkish community has Imams that go through Turkish State training and all sermons are from the same source: The State. This means Turks are not at a risk of radicalisation because you can't just get an Islamist Exteemist organisation fuck things up. The State version of Islam in Turkey is soft and benign. The modern Christianity of Islam I'd call it lol.

The problem is that even if you did that, there is still imams who don't preach in public. But it should be done. Imams that preach against gay rights, for attacks should be able to be punished.

 

[Jake.]

i don't like bill maher, nor do i have any issues with people believing in whatever they want to (to an extent), but i love this quote from religious - it sadly continues to be more relevant than ever.

"...if you belonged to a political party or a social club that was tied to as much bigotry, misogyny, homophobia, violence, and sheer ignorance as religion is, you'd resign in protest. To do otherwise is to be an enabler, a mafia wife, for the true devils of extremism that draw their legitimacy from the billions of their fellow travelers. If the world does come to an end here, or wherever, or if it limps into the future, decimated by the effects of religion-inspired nuclear terrorism, let's remember what the real problem was that we learned how to precipitate mass death before we got past the neurological disorder of wishing for it. That's it. Grow up or die."

 

[sphagnum]

The US has Racial tension because you have a mono cultural society but multi ethnic.

We in Europe have a multi cultural society that leads to clash.
And it is not just Muslim, it's French speaking people in Wallonia, it is Catholic and Protestant in Northern Ireland. Our many regional identity that wants to break off.

You shouldn't see everything via your us centric view

The US is in no way mono-cultural.

 

[Otakumegane]

You do realize that the Crusades was a Christian response after hundreds of years of Muslims invading and conquering Christian territory that they eventually fought and repelled them back to their own lands. It was very much a defensive effort.

No, it was a Pope trying to get rulers to unite and stop fighting that started the first crusade, using religious attacks as grounds for a war, which lead to centuries more of conflict. But time were different back then and not at a 1:1 parallel, but somehow trying to whitewash the crusades as some sort of defensive fight for survival is the least wise thing to do when comparing the validity of religion of islam as a factor.

 

[HariKari]

Why does the world seem to not be doing anything about this?

You can only discourage this sort of thing at the source, like not letting massive power vacuums develop in a volatile region. But the real answer is that there's no guaranteed way to fight this while living in a free society.

 

[spekkeh]

You need to separate yourself from the expectation that everyone who share your similarities are as good as you. There are assholes in every facet of life. It doesn't and shouldn't affect who you are and what you stand for.

Nah don't look away, it's shitty, but the more people experience that feeling, the more chance something actually happens. We got Christianity to where it is because Europe collectively said fuck our religion. A religion is only as powerful as its numbers. As long as the majority remains silent, religion at large doesn't have to adapt and extremism thrives.

 

[2San]

nvm.

 

[MistakenMobius]

The US is in no way mono-cultural.

Compared to Europe?
Yes

 

[Green Yoshi]

As a Muslim, I can't help but feel guilty for all of this. It's really becoming truly unbearable to be apart of this religion.

The three million people from Turkey here in Germany are muslims too and there was never any terror attack by Turkish people in Germany.

So I think the situation in France is more complicated.