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[Sijil]

You know we're talking about Islamic terrorism, by its very definition its based on the religion...

You can ignore that, but that seems pretty ignorant.

So what about the hundreds of Muslims dying each day fighting ISIS? What is their religion based on?

Are you going to ignore who's actually fighting terror on the ground? Seems pretty ignorant to me.

At the end of the day it's not keyboard warriors or westerners that are fighting ISIS, it's Muslims, they're the ones who are beating them back, all the West is doing is shaking hands with the Saudi regime the source of terror and making a ton of money.

 

[reckless]

Right. I didn't read it as in go overthrow dictators because like you said that does not work.

Progressive forever however like liberals and socialists should be supported because those are the people who are going to improve and free societies.

Yeah but we're always gonna take a stable dictator over uncertainty. Like in Bahrain. Yay cold war ruining everything.

 

[MistakenMobius]

Right. I didn't read it as in go overthrow dictators because like you said that does not work.

Progressive forever however like liberals and socialists should be supported because those are the people who are going to improve and free societies.

But people don't vote for moderate: looks at Erdogan

 

[Sirpopopop]

You know we're talking about Islamic terrorism, by its very definition its based on the religion...

You can ignore that, but that seems pretty ignorant.

It is ignorant to start throwing shade on people's religions. I can agree with that.

It is ignorant to be a Bill Maher type that wants to talk about a "problem with Islam."

It is ignorant to make not so veiled suggestions that "moderate Muslims" must fight for their religion.

 

[Zok310]

Now a days its as if everyone is radicalized and pissed, shit is crazy.

 

[Syder]

Most of us aren't cool with blaming the religion of 1 billion people for the actions of a crazed few.

It's not the people, it's the Religion. It's Religion. Period. Hating gays, oppressing women, Jihadism, Wahhabism, etc. is not 'Radical' Islam. It's in the doctrine in most of the World's Religions because they're hundreds/thousands of years old. Christianity has 'modernised' itself because it has so many denominations and sects where people pick and choose what they follow. Yeah, there are still very archaic forms of the religion going strong, Catholicism, for example. Some of the Qur'an's teachings are about as antiquated and outdated as it gets.

All I can say is, I'd hate to be a Desi minority living in France right now, Muslim or not. France is only going to go further Right and become more oppressive for these poor people. People will call for stricter immigration laws whilst ignoring the foreign policies of the West of the past that has made the Middle-East a hotbed for Terrorist groups like Da'esh.

 

[Ollie Pooch]

Yeah really.

Most of us aren't cool with blaming the religion of 1 billion people for the actions of a crazed few.

This kind of dismissive thinking wilfully ignores the very clear links between the religion of Islam and countless, ongoing mass casualty terrorist attacks. Why is it when one of these attacks occurs you could safely assume from the outset it is committed by some Islamic fanatic? I wish people would stop avoiding the elephant in the room.

Of course people aren't saying anything as extreme as 'all muslims support terrorism' or blaming all of them (nor should they) but there is something obviously, clearly incompatible between the beliefs of this religion, human rights and modern culture. The statistics and opinion polls etc support this.

 

[jamesmccloud]

So what about the hundreds of Muslims dying each day fighting ISIS? What is their religion based on?

Are you going to ignore who's actually fighting terror on the ground? Seems pretty ignorant to me.

At the end of the day it's not keyboard warriors or westerners that are fighting ISIS, it's Muslims, they're the ones who are beating them back, all the West is doing is shaking hands with the Saudi regime the source of terror and making a ton of money.

This here sums it up, very well put.

 

[Septy]

So what about the hundreds of Muslims dying each day fighting ISIS? What is their religion based on?

Are you going to ignore who's actually fighting terror on the ground? Seems pretty ignorant to me.

At the end of the day it's not keyboard warriors or westerners that are fighting ISIS, it's Muslims, they're the ones who are beating them back, all the West is doing is shaking hands with the Saudi regime the source of terror and making a ton of money.

The reason that the tide has turned in Northern Syria and Iraq is due to Western air support. Before the campaign stepped up, the Kurds were on their way to total defeat and the Iraqi forces suffered humiliation after humiliation.

 

[reckless]

So what about the hundreds of Muslims dying each day fighting ISIS? What is their religion based on?

Are you going to ignore who's actually fighting terror on the ground? Seems pretty ignorant to me.

At the end of the day it's not keyboard warriors or westerners that are fighting ISIS, it's Muslims, they're the ones who are beating them back, all the West is doing is shaking hands with the Saudi regime the source of terror and making a ton of money.

A different interpretation of the same religion.

I mean US air support, western weapons, training and Intel have been pretty important in fighting ISIS. Yeah luckily Westerner's aren't the main ground force that would be a disaster in every way.

All of the gulf states are pretty terrible in their monetary support for different extremist groups and ideologies. And i really wish the US would stop them instead of helping them.

 

[Condom]

But people don't vote for moderate: looks at Erdogan

Because the AKP is well funded and organized. No reason 'we' can't help progressives in spreading their message. In quite some countries there already are social Democrats and liberal movement, they just need help in gaining more ground and winning elections.

It's just like conservatives in the West that can comfortably keep their power if progressives are not well organized.

 

[Pezking]

He was also a Muslim who claimed the attack in the name of Allah.

At some point people will stop giving Islam, and religion as a whole, a free pass on this. Islamic terrorism is a fact and it happens, across the globe, every day. Now where do we go from here?

First of all, we should think about how the terrorists want us to react.

And then avoid doing that by all costs. Because nobody wants them to win.

Terrorists need to learn that terrorist acts don't bring them any nearer to their goals. They don't care if they die for their cause. But they sure as hell don't want to sacrifice themselves for nothing. That has to be the lesson for them: You don't gain anything from your actions.

And for that to work, everybody involved has to make an effort.
Which is unfortunately problematic on the muslim side, because their religion isn't structured like christianity. There is no muslim church that could excommunicate terrorists for all the world to see. There is no central muslim organ that controls what is preached in the name of islam. A muslim pope would come in handy in situations like this.

I think because of these structures, it is very difficult for muslims to take a united stand against terrorism and effectively present this view to the public.

Of course, the terrorists know that as well...

 

[2San]

So what about the hundreds of Muslims dying each day fighting ISIS? What is their religion based on?

Are you going to ignore who's actually fighting terror on the ground? Seems pretty ignorant to me.

At the end of the day it's not keyboard warriors or westerners that are fighting ISIS, it's Muslims, they're the ones who are beating them back, all the West is doing is shaking hands with the Saudi regime the source of terror and making a ton of money.

It also annoys me that these people aren't even coming with solutions either. People are acting like they can't criticize Islam. Where the hell do they live? People, politicians criticize Islam all the damn time. Or do they want the right to call Muslims sub human trash without repercussions or something?

 

[MistakenMobius]

All I can say is, I'd hate to be a Desi minority living in France right now, Muslim or not. France is only going to go further Right and become more oppressive for these poor people. People will call for stricter immigration laws whilst ignoring the foreign policies of the West of the past that has made the Middle-East a hotbed for Terrorist groups like Da'esh.

Funny how you are allowed to generalize the west and do some nice victim Blaming year we shouldn't generalize anything about people specifically referring to a religion for their actions.

 

[EatinOlives]

It's really sad to think that nearly every major event during the summer has at least one or more stories involving a major attack of some sort. Between the Orlando shooting, the bombing in Istanbul, the Dallas shooting, and this, it feels like the world doesn't have time to fucking breathe. Live/daily shows and events have done the "our thoughts and prayers go out to those affected by ___" so often you can almost hear the routineness of it from whoever is saying it.

On the one hand I feel like it's the media's obligation to temper the coverage, since blasting it all day and night only gives these fuckers attention. On the other hand, this is shit that shouldn't be ignored and we shouldn't stop feeling the pain because it can't just become routine.

EDIT: Speaking more specifically about ISIS: I feel like the media should start devoting serious time on frequent updates on the state of the international fight against ISIS. People are only hearing about the frequency of terrorist attacks without the contexts as to why they're happening (ISIS is losing badly on many fronts and these attacks are desperate attempts at recruiting more people to join their death mills). Reading the OT for three minutes alone has educated me a lot more about the current state of the fighting than I've ever had listening/reading more mainstream media. Not that we need to turn the media into glorified propaganda, but the emphasis in only covering terrorists when they're successful makes them look a lot more deadly than they really are.

 

[Sijil]

The reason that the tide has turned in Northern Syria and Iraq is due to Western air support. Before the campaign stepped up, the Kurds were on their way to total defeat and the Iraqi forces suffered humiliation after humiliation.

You have absolutely zero idea on the topic. The Iraqis started turning the tide since over a year ago, retaking Tikrit, Baiji, Ramadi, Fallujah. The Iraqi forces alone managed to retake the whole Salahuddin and Anbar provinces. It wasn't due to Western support, Iran proved to be the primary aid, they're the ones who formed the PMU and reformed the IAF and turned the tide. The West only started helping the IAF when they saw they were about to loose influence in Iraq over to Iran.

The Kurds on the other hand were about to lose Kobani and ISIS was inching closer to Erbil until Western air support arrived.

 

[KOHIPEET]

So, so sad.

There should be one universal religion, the respect of life itself. Every other belief should be secondary.

I will probably never understand the mindset of someone capable of commiting such massacre.

 

[HK-47]

Religion, be it Islam, Christianity or Budism must be criticized.
It can foster extremist views if left unchecked.

So can political, ethical and economic ideologies.

People like to only focus on the religious angle when looking at a multifaceted problem.

 

[MisterFalcon]

The Iraqi forces alone managed to retake the whole Salahuddin and Anbar provinces. It wasn't due to Western support, Iran proved to be the primary aid, they're the ones who formed the PMU and reformed the IAF and turned the tide.

These two things cannot both be true.

 

[Freezie KO]

So what about the hundreds of Muslims dying each day fighting ISIS? What is their religion based on?

Are you going to ignore who's actually fighting terror on the ground? Seems pretty ignorant to me.

At the end of the day it's not keyboard warriors or westerners that are fighting ISIS, it's Muslims, they're the ones who are beating them back, all the West is doing is shaking hands with the Saudi regime the source of terror and making a ton of money.

Some of those fighters are Islamic Front another theocratic band of regressive Islamic thugs.

 

[FStop7]

All of this makes me so sad. I was in Nice just over a year ago, I walked where all of this happened. A friend of mine lives there and thankfully was at home when the attack happened. A former coworker lives there, too. Hopefully I can find someone who has his contact info to check up on him. And fuck everyone who uses these events to further their agendas. You know who you are.

 

[Septy]

The Kurds on the other hand were about to lose Kobani and ISIS was inching closer to Erbil until Western air support arrived.

So, Western support did make a difference

Coalition airstrikes were involved in those battles in Iraq. The battle of Tikrit was supported by the USAF and RAF.

 

[reckless]

It is ignorant to start throwing shade on people's religions. I can agree with that.

It is ignorant to be a Bill Maher type that wants to talk about a "problem with Islam."

It is ignorant to make not so veiled suggestions that "moderate Muslims" must fight for their religion.

Maybe if religion didn't lead to real world consequences we could all ignore it. In the mean time religion is leading to people dying, to women being denied rights, to LGBTQ people being denied rights, to followers of other religions being denied rights etc...

Islam just like Christianity before does have and continues to have problems with liberal societies.

I mean there is literally a war going on right now where liberals, moderates and conservatives have to fight for their lives against a radical group...

 

[aygomyownroad]

Real pistol, fake grenades and rifles... That doesn't make sense.

Guns for show, knives for a pro?

But seriously RIP to the victims, i know they don't happen every day but France is getting it so tough the last year with these attacks.

The phrase keep strong etc are always banded about but its getting bad and you wonder what hope there is.

 

[PartlyCloudlike]

It is ignorant to start throwing shade on people's religions. I can agree with that.

It is ignorant to be a Bill Maher type that wants to talk about a "problem with Islam."

It is ignorant to make not so veiled suggestions that "moderate Muslims" must fight for their religion.

We talked about there being a problem with the Catholic church when it was uncovered that they were covering for pedophiles. That's not ignorant. We talk all the time about the intolerance of Christianity when it comes to LGBTQ rights such as gay marriage or the reproductive rights of women. That's not ignorant either. The implication is obvious: there's a problem with Christian beliefs in modern society. And the same goes for the discussion regarding Islam as it pertains to violent fundamentalists, and how their interpretations of this religion are (a) not compatible with western society (b) fucking horrifying. I don't know of any other name to call their religion right now. What I do know is that the religion is a central actor, and that religion is causing a whole lot of pain and suffering in parts of the world. There's a problem with Islam.

 

[univariate]

Not by putting the blame on Islam as a religion, that's for sure.

I disagree.

There's some good stuff in the Quran, but there's some bad stuff too that can be taken out context :

Say to those who reject Faith: "Soon will ye be vanquished and gathered together to Hell,— an evil bed indeed (to lie on)! [Quran 3:12]


The context of that verse is historical. The Prophet Muhammad expelled a Jewish tribe after invading and conquering their land. He had his reasons, but I find them frivolous (my opinion).

The Prophet rounded up the Jews and the above verse was revealed to him.

Also in reference to the same event:

If thou fearest treachery from any group, throw back (their covenant) to them, (so as to be) on equal terms: for Allah loveth not the treacherous [Quran 8:58]


These verses are very hateful, but they clearly refer to a specific historical event.

Can you see how someone without that historical context will interpret those passages?
Can you also see how someone can interpret those verses to justify an attack against a perceived enemy?

 

[Syder]

Funny how you are allowed to generalize the west and do some nice victim Blaming year we shouldn't generalize anything about people specifically referring to a religion for their actions.

I'm not entirely sure I understand your point. Are you saying support for Far-Right movements in France won't increase after this? These sorts of movements famously capitalise on incidents like these. At no point did I say the survivors of this attack would be the ones supporting them though.

 

[2San]

Maybe if religion didn't lead to real world consequences we could all ignore it. In the mean time religion is leading to people dying, to women being denied rights, to LGBTQ people being denied rights, to followers of other religions being denied rights etc...

Islam just like Christianity before does have and continues to have problems with liberal societies.

I mean there is literally a war going on right now where liberals, moderates and conservatives have to fight for their lives against a radical group...

So what do you propose the moderate Muslims do then?

I disagree.

There's some good stuff in the Quran, but there's some bad stuff too that can be taken out context and/or applied to :

Say to those who reject Faith: "Soon will ye be vanquished and gathered together to Hell,— an evil bed indeed (to lie on)! [Quran 3:12]


The context of that verse is historical. The Prophet Muhammad expelled a Jewish tribe after invading and conquering their land. He had his reasons, but I find them frivolous (my opinion).

The Prophet rounded up the Jews and the above verse was revealed to him.

Also in reference to the same event:

If thou fearest treachery from any group, throw back (their covenant) to them, (so as to be) on equal terms: for Allah loveth not the treacherous [Quran 8:58]


These verses are very hateful, but they clearly refer to a specific historical event.

Can you see how someone without that historical context will interpret those passages?
Can you also see how someone can interpret those verses to justify an attack against a perceived enemy?

Do you want to ban the Qu'ran in it's current inception?

 

[HTupolev]

Christianity has 'modernised' itself because it has so many denominations and sects where people pick and choose what they follow.

That's a simplistic way of looking at what religions are.

The Christian bible, for instance, is a scattered collection of texts written by a ton of different people from various different cultures in multiple languages, re-edited and translated and re-compiled and what have you by a ton of different people from various different cultures in multiple languages at various times. It features many outlooks, and doesn't intrinsically provide a reading guideline. There's no clear correct way of reading the bible, hence its interpretation is always changing even among particular groups. In that sense, people do sort of pick and choose... but there's not really an alternative of "not pick-and-choosing."

Views on religious matters change because of changes in other aspects of society. They influence each other, and have always done so.

Yeah, there are still very archaic forms of the religion going strong, Catholicism, for example.

How are you using "archaic" here? In what way(s) do you think Catholicism is "archaic" relative to other forms of Christianity?

 

[Sijil]

These two things cannot both be true.

Iran is not a Western country , it is a Muslim country that has lost hundreds of soldiers fighting ISIS in Iraq and JAN in Syria. My point was the Iraqi forces didn't rely on the West to turn the tide, fact is the Americans were reluctant to help us against ISIS until the Iranians stepped in, even then the US were putting terms to curb Iranian influence in Iraq in order to provide some form of assistance while ISIS was slaughtering Iraqis in the hundreds.

Some of those fighters are Islamic Front another theocratic band of regressive Islamic thugs.

Yes some, much like there's a civil war between Al Qaeda and ISIS, same ideology but they're fighting over power. On the other hand you got hundreds of thousands from the IAF, PMU, SAA, fighting ISIS.

So, Western support did make a difference

Coalition airstrikes were involved in those battles in Iraq. The battle of Tikrit was supported by the USAF and RAF.

Not to us, they only aided the Kurds. The West only intervened in Ramadi to curb Iranian influence, Ramadi would still have been taken without Western support much like other areas where Iranian support proved much more beneficial. Don't mistake US aid to Iraq as goodhearted, while ISIS started rampaging in Iraq the US rebuked Iraq call for immediate air support, only when the Iranians entered Iraq did the US start offering aid in order to stop the growth of Iranian hegemony in Iraq.

 

[commedieu]

Instead of spending billions on trying to combat the Great Russian Threat, I'd like to see our nations of NATO get together to wipe out isis, and create a world where radicalized folks can't take over pockets of countries to then develop into large scale problems.

 

[aygomyownroad]

Just saw video of it on the Telegraphs website. I just can't.

Islam should he criticised we should allow to criticise what was want and I think the French Government should start doing more to get to the route of why so many attacks are happening. Why is there so many young ready to kill? Mosques should be under scrutiny, if there is radicalism from a mosque then the people involved should be arrested, the mosque shut down. Its harsh when it's a minority but unless the majority point out what is happening these events will continue.

 

[Syder]

How are you using "archaic" here? In what way(s) do you think Catholicism is "archaic" relative to other forms of Christianity?

I wouldn't necessarily say relative to other denominations but some aspects of Catholicism are definitely archaic, at least to most Liberal Westerners.

 

[HTupolev]

I necessarily say relative to other denominations but some aspects of Catholicism are definitely archaic to most Liberal Westerners.

That doesn't answer the question. What do you mean by "archaic"? What things about it, why, etc?

 

[smurfx]

This isn't going to stop, isn't it ?
And what can you do to prevent such acts anyway? It seems so hard to predict.

you can do a lot to try and keep guns off the streets. there isn't a damn thing you can do about some guy running people over with a vehicle. the best thing they can do is try and stop people from being radicalized and follow any leads.

 

[Jb]

I prayed so hard that the body count would not be to high last night. Now I'm just in shock and unable to process the horror and sadness of what happened.

At the end of the day it's not keyboard warriors or westerners that are fighting ISIS, it's Muslims, they're the ones who are beating them back, all the West is doing is shaking hands with the Saudi regime the source of terror and making a ton of money.

This is so fucking stupid. Is it honestly what you believe or typical internet hyperbole?
We got some real experts on international relations and Middle East policy here.

 

[HK-47]

Instead of spending billions on trying to combat the Great Russian Threat, I'd like to see our nations of NATO get together to wipe out isis, and create a world where radicalized folks can't take over pockets of countries to then develop into large scale problems.

No one but the US really wants to spend those billions (and there is a push to pivot to Asia for the US) and no one wants boots on the ground in the Middle East.

 

[-Amon-]

Again a weird comparison to the fascist, religiously driven suicide bombers of the Empire of Japan. How were they justified?

kamikaze attacks where used at the end f the war, only on military objectives, only when it was not possible to have a chance to fight using conventional methods.

In my opinion, it's entirely different from what we see nowadays. These are attacks on unharmed civilians.

 

[Septic360]

Crazed few? What about all the islamic countries where women are worthless and gay people aren't allowed to live? Religion is nothing but trouble and extremism is part of it.

Pretty scary how people are tarring so many with the same brush.

I guess it's only gonna get worse for Muslims too. Bad enough that most of the victims of terrorism are Muslims, not just casualties of heinous acts such as this, but from people in the west lambasting all Muslims in general, passing off opinions as fact.

I try to avoid getting involved in these debates because I don't want to seem insensitive to the victims of such acts but not gonna lie, it ROYALLY pisses me off that people comment on here as if the lives in the west matter so much more than in other countries. Yes its closer to home I get it, but it's almost like we've become desensitised to Muslims dying because it happens so often. Muslims are primarily the victims; we're fucking enraged by people trying to hijack our faith, killing mostly Muslims and on top of that, blithering idiots then pointing fingers at us Muslims for these acts.


If Muslims come out and make factual statements like these terrorists are in a minority, people get the ump and say, oh stop scapegoating.

Is this how weak minded people are? People already giving up hope, talking about the world ending, calling for the end of religion, pointing fingers at a whole set of followers of faith? Fair criticism is fine but making such blanket sweeping statements...it's just pathetic.

You lot rinse the likes of Trump a lot but observing your sentiments, you only seem to be one step away from supporting him in some aspects.

Anyway, like I've said countless times, the vast majority of Muslims absolutely don't support shit like this. If people don't get that, then that's an indictment on their understanding or intelligence. It shouldn't have to be said but some people just don't or will never get it.

RIP to the victims. It's bloody atrocious and absolutely sickening. Regardless of all the bullshit politics and arguments, let's not forget all those that have had their lives destroyed by this prick. I regret watching that video of the aftermath.

 

[DXB-KNIGHT]

There is no problem with Islam, it existed for more a thousand years

The terrorism movement in that uses Islam however is very recent, precisely when Political-Religious movement started appearing at the beginning of the 20th century.
From killing civilians, to blowing up Mosques.

-If the world wants such nonsense to stop Middle East countries needs to separate Religion and state.
-Religious men even moderate ones need to stay away from politics.
-Parties based on Religion need to be displayed.

 

[Out 1]

Instead of spending billions on trying to combat the Great Russian Threat, I'd like to see our nations of NATO get together to wipe out isis, and create a world where radicalized folks can't take over pockets of countries to then develop into large scale problems.

Fighting for peace is an oxymoron.

 

[Syder]

That doesn't answer the question. What do you mean by "archaic"? What things about it, why, etc?

Teaching against homosexuality, empowering men over women, basically.

 

[Tatsumi Oga]

So i went to sleep last night and woke up just now. Did anything else occur?

 

[HK-47]

There is no problem with Islam, it existed for more a thousand years

The terrorism movement in that uses Islam however is very recent, precisely when Political-Religious movement started appearing at the beginning of the 20th century.
From killing civilians, to blowing up Mosques.

-If the world wants such nonsense to stop Middle East countries needs to separate Religion and state.
-Religious men even moderate ones need to stay away from politics.
-Parties based on Religion need to be displayed.

Appeal to tradition is not a great defense of an ideology for obvious reasons.

 

[neorej]

There is no problem with Islam, it existed for more a thousand years

And has been violent from day 1. Your point is?

 

[Alx]

Shitty news to wake up to. And we were just about to end the state of emergency in 10 days, now it's on for three more months. When you think things are getting better... :/
Condolences to the families, thank you to the cops who managed to stop him. Unfortunately it shows that nothing can be done to prevent such attacks with certainty, there are so many ways to kill people even without weapons nor explosives. There will certainly be a lot of blame game, but the truth is we'll have to live with such attacks as long as there will be people crazy enough to plan them.

 

[Glassboy]

I feel like attacks are only ever going to get worseand happen more frequently. More and more eyes are laid on the events as if they were almost there themselves. That's good for the terrorists unfortunately.

 

[Woo-Fu]

Why does the world seem to not be doing anything about this?

Because there is no cure for religious extremism that doesn't involve mass-reverse-brainwashing.

"Hello impressionable children, today we're going to learn my interpretation of this book that was written in and for ancient times, and how I think you should apply it today."

If it wasn't Islam it would be something else---and has been in the past. The Crusades seem like an obvious example. Religion is just a convenient tool because it usually involves mysterious beings who never have to answer any tough questions face to face. God doesn't fill out surveys, and he/she/it can't be cross-examined in a court of law. Islam can't be the problem unless you're saying that all organized religions---at least those with belief systems that are open to interpretation---are the problem.

So you take entire generations, teach them that the West is the source of all evil and that the only way to make the world a better place is to take the battle to that source in the form of terrorism. And each time somebody asks you if you're sure you tell them God spoke to you.

 

[Stereogatari]

Yeah really.

Most of us aren't cool with blaming the religion of 1 billion people for the actions of a crazed few.

Most of those 1 billion value humanity over their faith.

Not to mention that 1 billion+ figure is bullshit. It assumes all people born in Muslim majority ethnic groups as Muslim.

 

[Podge293]

My wife's cousin was at the celebrations. Says he saw the truck coming only for it to zag at the last moments to his left.

Terrible shit going on.