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[elrechazado]

Apparently GRRM all but confirmed at some signing that Connington is gay.

I guess you could read that he had some unrequited love for Rhaegar from the text, but I didn't pick up on that.

Hmm, I didn't get that either, but it definitely wasn't hinted at to the level of loras and renly.

 

[ezrarh]

So apparently I missed the hints at Theon being gelded? Ramsay Bolton is one evil dude. I can't forgive him but damn, I feel sorry for the dude.

 

[elrechazado]

So apparently I missed the hints at Theon being gelded? Ramsay Bolton is one evil dude. I can't forgive him but damn, I feel sorry for the dude.

Theon had plenty of sex, he'll be fine

 

[Puddles]

Maybe he won't pop a wood in front of his sister anymore.

 

[hermitpurple]

for all the weaknesses ADWD had - and there were many - it's entirely redeemed by one phrase:

The North remembers

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

I can finally return to this thread! I won't repost my meandering thoughts from the other thread since they're long, I'm tired and no one will probably read them (I wouldn't).

But I'll just say that this is my least favorite book in the series. Mixed with AFFC it's a huge letdown. They feel like the series is treading water. There's a lot of fat that could have been cut and both books could have been shortened and released as one. I wonder what the five year gap verions would have been like.

 

[Basileus777]

I thought it was still better than Feast. All the problems and flaws this book had, AFFC had even worse, except with even less interesting characters and storylines. Well except for the writing/prose which was better in AFFC. In that regard, GRRM had his moments of brilliance, but a lot of the writing was sloppy. Tons of bloat and unnecessary/clumsy repetition of words and phrases. ADWD badly needed some harsher editing.

 

[Puddles]

Everything after the Dornish kid releases the dragons is better than anything in AFFC.

At the very least, ONE thing that we've been waiting for since Book 1 (will the dragons ever do anything badass?!?) has finally happened.

 

[Gambit]

I thought it was still better than Feast. All the problems and flaws this book had, AFFC had even worse, except with even less interesting characters and storylines. Well except for the writing/prose which was better in AFFC. In that regard, GRRM had his moments of brilliance, but a lot of the writing was sloppy. Tons of bloat and unnecessary/clumsy repetition of words and phrases. ADWD badly needed some harsher editing.

I concur. The meandering plot was similar to Feast, but at least it featured characters I like better. So, Dance > Feast. Nevertheless, I thought Feast is the best written of them all (from a stylistic point of view). But personally I am more of a "plot" guy and neither of the last two books did much to advance it.

Question for all: Which characters do you think benefitted from Dance, which became worse?

for me:

Winners:
Ser Barristan (I feared his own POV would harm his mystique, but on the contrary. He is even more awesome now)
Bran (although I´ve always liked him)
Melisandre (big surprise for me)
Theon (unbelievable surprise!)
Connington (I think the only new character I really liked. I loved the Greyscale revelation)
Lord Wyman
Dragons!

Losers:
Dany
Tyrion
everyone and everything in Mereen
The Greyjoys (except Asha)
Martell


The others remained on the same level

 

[Puddles]

I think that once The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring are released, assuming that everything that we want to see happen actually happens, we'll look back on ADWD and realize it's probably the 2nd or 3rd best out of the first five books.

Like I said, it's the book we deserved, but not the book we needed right now.

 

[Basileus777]

I think that once The Winds with Winter and A Dream of Spring are released, assuming that everything that we want to see happen actually happens, we'll look back on ADWD and realize it's probably the 2nd or 3rd best out of the first five books.

Like I said, it's the book we deserved, but not the book we needed right now.

Since a Dream of Spring will never be released, I'm going to read this post as a form of biting sarcasm.

 

[Pkaz01]

The only problem I had with this book was all the bullshit about Meeren and all the people trying to get there. The stuff in the north was pretty damn amazing and were easily my favorite parts. Even the fucked up Theon chapters were bearable because you still got to see things relevant to the story.

The stuff in Meeren? All I could say was who really gives a shit? Do I really have to read about Tyrion jousting for 4 chapters in a row? Or Dany getting horny for Daario?

The only part that I really cared about and still remember about the Dany chapters is when Barristan tells her about Ned and how he argued for her life, she replies by saying they are all the same. Well Dany if you are going to rule Westeros you better get over it because if you say some shit like that in the north you are going to get stabbed very quickly dragons or not.

And seriously that whole Jaime chapter was bullshit up until the last part where he meets Brienne. 6 years for that? Not even 6 sentences.

 

[Aegus]

Has it been confirmed who the Harpy in Meereen is? I know that the expected person is the Dany's new husband, but I keep on thinking that it's Daario for some reason and will be one of her betrayals.

 

[golem]

Has it been confirmed who the Harpy in Meereen is? I know that the expected person is the Dany's new husband, but I keep on thinking that it's Daario for some reason and will be one of her betrayals.

I think Daario is dead.. launched over the wall.

 

[elrechazado]

The only problem I had with this book was all the bullshit about Meeren and all the people trying to get there. The stuff in the north was pretty damn amazing and were easily my favorite parts. Even the fucked up Theon chapters were bearable because you still got to see things relevant to the story.

The stuff in Meeren? All I could say was who really gives a shit? Do I really have to read about Tyrion jousting for 4 chapters in a row? Or Dany getting horny for Daario?

The only part that I really cared about and still remember about the Dany chapters is when Barristan tells her about Ned and how he argued for her life, she replies by saying they are all the same. Well Dany if you are going to rule Westeros you better get over it because if you say some shit like that in the north you are going to get stabbed very quickly dragons or not.

And seriously that whole Jaime chapter was bullshit up until the last part where he meets Brienne. 6 years for that? Not even 6 sentences.

The jaime chapter felt like some fanfic honestly. "Yo, it's me brienne, come with my jaime" "ok lol"

Seriously george? That was it?

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

The jaime chapter felt like some fanfic honestly. "Yo, it's me brienne, come with my jaime" "ok lol"

Seriously george? That was it?

Man I was seriously happy when that Jaime chapter showed up. After meandering through shitty Dany and Tyrion chapters Jaime seemed like an oasis in the desert. All we got was him negotiating peace to characters no one gives a fuck about and then the incredibly abrupt ending. He's just chilling there then in about a quarter of a page Brienne shows up says something then he goes off with her. Never to be seen again in the book.

The only problem I had with this book was all the bullshit about Meeren and all the people trying to get there. The stuff in the north was pretty damn amazing and were easily my favorite parts. Even the fucked up Theon chapters were bearable because you still got to see things relevant to the story.

The stuff in Meeren? All I could say was who really gives a shit? Do I really have to read about Tyrion jousting for 4 chapters in a row? Or Dany getting horny for Daario?

The only part that I really cared about and still remember about the Dany chapters is when Barristan tells her about Ned and how he argued for her life, she replies by saying they are all the same. Well Dany if you are going to rule Westeros you better get over it because if you say some shit like that in the north you are going to get stabbed very quickly dragons or not.

And seriously that whole Jaime chapter was bullshit up until the last part where he meets Brienne. 6 years for that? Not even 6 sentences.

Ha, same here. I guess I just miss Ned. He was never really my favorite character but he's 1000 times better than most of the ones we've been left with.

I think Daario is dead.. launched over the wall.

God I hope so. The only one of the sellswords that was ever even slighly interesting was Brown Ben Plumm. Dany's storyline with him was horrible and he's defiintely one of her betrayels if he's not dead. It's in his nature and she's too stupid to see that. Brown Ben was a lesson to her but took weak to be one of the betrayels she keeps going on and on about.

edit: what's with all the elephants!

 

[HarryHengst]

Man I was seriously happy when that Jaime chapter showed up. After meandering through shitty Dany and Tyrion chapters Jaime seemed like an oasis in the desert. All we got was him negotiating peace to characters no one gives a fuck about and then the incredibly abrupt ending. He's just chilling there then in about a quarter of a page Brienne shows up says something then he goes off with her. Never to be seen again in the book.

Bet he ends up marrying Brienne, making ugly golden haired babies with her.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Bet he ends up marrying Brienne, making ugly golden haired babies with her.

That could be Catelyn's punishment for him. He has to constantly fuck Brienne, but never in the dark, and his eyes are held open A Clockwork Orange style.

 

[darkwing]

where is Catelyn btw?

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

where is Catelyn btw?

I think she's still somewhere in the riverlands hanging people.

 

[Last Hearth]

Basically the North rocked, Arya rocked, Meereen sucked.

I think George himself even realized this, which is why Aegon and Connington said "screw Meereen we're going to Westeros." Honestly Connington got more done in 2 chapters than Dany in 3 books.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

I remember back when AFFC came out, people were pissed when Arya went blind. Funny how that was all resolved in a single chapter. Her chapters were good though.

 

[sharbhund]

I wish there were more Bran chapters in the book. Are we supposed to assume that it was Bran trying to communicate with Theon through the weirwood and Jon through the raven?

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Been reading some other comments on the book and there were quite a few things I didn't pick up on, although I instantly knew who young Griff was so I'm not a complete idiot. Some of what other people have written make me appreciate the book more. Well makes me appreciate the chapters and characters I already liked more. Dany and Tyrion and most of the Essos stuff still suck (aside from Barristan!).

And I do appreciate Quentyn a bit more after thinking about him, especially if his death leads to Dorne supporting Aegon and not Dany. I would love to see those two go at it, especially if Aegon wins, but he won't.

I think I still consider it the weakest, only because a lot more time scenes wasted than AFFC. Also, too many elephants.

 

[golem]

I think George's intentions with the Dany chapters were along the lines of showing that good people don't necessarily make good rulers, but really most of that could have been condensed. It is funny that he had to pull out Young Griff and Barristan to finally have something noteworthy actually happen in Essos.. ugh.

 

[bluemax]

I think George's intentions with the Dany chapters were along the lines of showing that good people don't necessarily make good rulers, but really most of that could have been condensed. It is funny that he had to pull out Young Griff and Barristan to finally have something noteworthy actually happen in Essos.. ugh.

Solving the Mereen Knot by making the plot even stupider.

The American Tolkien hard at work!

 

[darkwing]

I wish there were more Bran chapters in the book. Are we supposed to assume that it was Bran trying to communicate with Theon through the weirwood and Jon through the raven?

hmm that is what i thought too

 

[ezrarh]

I wouldn't be so disappointed in the book if it hadn't taken 11 years to write.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

I wouldn't be so disappointed in the book if it hadn't taken 11 years to write.

Heh, that's definitely part of it. Plus I think that so much could have trimmed (originally Tyrion was only supposed to have 4 chapters, which would have worked) from both AFFC and ADWD and they could have been made one book. Cutting down on the descriptions of food and elephants could have helped as well.

 

[Basileus777]

I think Daario is dead.. launched over the wall.

I think it was diseased corpses they launched. Medieval biological warfare.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

I think it was diseased corpses they launched. Medieval biological warfare.

Yeah, I hope one of them was Darrio though. But I doubt it. Hate him.

I was happy that Strong Belwas lived, but was disappointed he wasn't in the book more. Him and Barristen are the only Dany companions I've ever really liked. Or really the only characters in her entire storyline (including her) I really liked. Well Mirri Maz Duur was pretty cool. And the dragons too now that I think about it.

 

[golem]

I think it was diseased corpses they launched. Medieval biological warfare.

When they said "The trebuchets, all six" to me it meant all six hostages, not the fact they had six trebuchets. Could be wrong though.

 

[sharbhund]

When they said "The trebuchets, all six" to me it meant all six hostages, not the fact they had six trebuchets. Could be wrong though.

I also interpreted it as being the 6 remaining hostages.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Were there still 6 hostages though? They sent Grolio's head, released weird named dudes family. I thought all they had was Jhogo, Hero and Daario? Could be wrong, I was intensely sick of that storyline by that point and was just trying to get through it.

 

[Tacitus_]

Were there still 6 hostages though? They sent Grolio's head, released weird named dudes family. I thought all they had was Jhogo, Hero and Daario? Could be wrong, I was intensely sick of that storyline by that point and was just trying to get through it.

I think so, they sent the Admirals head to the king and returned his relatives.

 

[yacobod]

Anyone else think the Green Grace & Hizdahr zu Loraq are in control of the Sons of the Harpy? I'm leaning towards the Green Grace, harpies are usually female, and would make sense of the Sons of the Harpy name.

The whole SoH situation also points to how stupid Dany is.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Anyone else think the Green Grace & Hizdahr zu Loraq are in control of the Sons of the Harpy? I'm leaning towards the Green Grace, harpies are usually female, and would make sense of the Sons of the Harpy name.

The whole SoH situation also points to how stupid Dany is.

Yeah, Hizwhatshisface was definitely behind them and probably the Green Grace. And Dany is definitely stupid. She'd be a shitty queen for Westeros. Hopefully Aegon is better. I still think Tywin Lannister would have been the best, asshole that he was.

 

[Basileus777]

Anyone else think the Green Grace & Hizdahr zu Loraq are in control of the Sons of the Harpy? I'm leaning towards the Green Grace, harpies are usually female, and would make sense of the Sons of the Harpy name.

The whole SoH situation also points to how stupid Dany is.

I agree, those Barristan chapters made me think Green Grace was the Harpy and Hizdahr merely a collaborator.

It's frankly unbelievable that Dany didn't figure it out when the murders stopped immediately. It's clumsy how she went from a furious conqueror freeing slaves and killings slavers en-mass to a meek girl chaining her dragons, marrying a slaver and essentially kowtowing to Yunkai.

 

[yacobod]

Hopefully Jon is better.

fixed . JS will be the PTWP, AA reborn. He will fulfill every fantasy trope known to man before the series is over, starting with his resurrection next book.

The mummer's dragon will be killed off by the midpoint of the next novel (early guess).

 

[JerkShep]

With Quentyn gone and the brilliant (?) Doran's plan failed miserably I just don't understand why write 10-15 Dorne chapters in these last two books when basically everything could be explained with no problems using other characters (Tyrion, Connington, Dany, maybe some rumors in King's Landing). For me Martells position was pretty clear since the ending of ASOS (Oberyn ). Martin could have spread some rumors about Quentyn going across the Narrow Sea, maybe show him in some Tyrion/Connington chapters and then in Mereen with Dany.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

fixed . JS will be the PTWP, AA reborn. He will fulfill every fantasy trope known to man before the series is over, starting with his resurrection next book.

The mummer's dragon will be killed off by the midpoint of the next novel (early guess).

I think he's definitely the PTWP & AA but his destiny is to fight and defeat the others for good, not rule Westeros. Or maybe George will surprise and he's neither. He's not dead for sure though, and I hope he remains a POV and he's just not seen through Melisandre (or please dear god not Sam, that dude needs to go). I've always liked his chapters and even though they were a bit repetitive this book, they were still better than a certain dwarf who I usually count amongst my favorites.

I think Aegon will live for awhile supported by Dorne and contest Dany if and when she arrives (so many pages and bitch is right back where she started, but she'll marry Victarion for his ships).

 

[Basileus777]

With Quentyn gone and the brilliant (?) Doran's plan failed miserably I just don't understand why write 10-15 Dorne chapters in these last two books when basically everything could be explained with no problems using other characters (Tyrion, Connington, Dany, maybe some rumors in King's Landing). For me Martells position was pretty clear since the ending of ASOS (Oberyn ). Martin could have spread some rumors about Quentyn going across the Narrow Sea, maybe show him in some Tyrion/Connington chapters and then in Mereen with Dany.

I suppose the plots with the Darkstar and Nymeria Sand at court might go somewhere, but you're essentially right, the Dornish didn't need all these POVs. Quentyn was entirely pointless as a POV character, his first 3 chapters were 100% filler. He could have had a few Arianne chapters to setup things and explain the Myrcella plot and it would have been enough.

 

[Tacitus_]

Anyone else think the Green Grace & Hizdahr zu Loraq are in control of the Sons of the Harpy? I'm leaning towards the Green Grace, harpies are usually female, and would make sense of the Sons of the Harpy name.

The whole SoH situation also points to how stupid Dany is.

Dany's not really stupid. However, currently she's a young girl in 'love' and her gentle heart won't allow her to be ruthless to root out the dissidents.

Then again, the plot has hammered that being gentlehearted will get either you or your close ones killed so I guess you could call it stupidity. I hope she brings her houses words with her when she returns to her children.

 

[yacobod]

I suppose it could be possible that Aegon could be a legit Targ, instead of being a fake (mummer), maybe mummer's dragon in this case means he's Varys' dragon since he used to be a mummer. It would be a funny curve ball if he does manage to take the Iron Throne in the next novel since the Realm is seriously fucking split at the moment.

It would be hilarious if he's sitting the Iron Throne while Dany is still off fucking about in the Dothraki Sea or Mereen, especially since he's just been introduced to the series.

Dany's not really stupid.

Her POV says otherwise.

 

[Basileus777]

Dany's not really stupid. However, currently she's a young girl in 'love' and her gentle heart won't allow her to be ruthless to root out the dissidents.

She was ruthless in ASOS when she was sacking cities and killing slavers left and right.

I suppose it could be possible that Aegon could be a legit Targ, instead of being a fake (mummer), maybe mummer's dragon in this case means he's Varys' dragon since he used to be a mummer.

The problem is that Dany's vision was of a cloth dragon on a pole. And that red priest with Victarion had a vision of a fake dragon. I'm pretty sure Aegon is a fake. Varys' silly speech about how he was raised to be a perfect king tells me he's meeting some tragic end. Martin is going to use him as example of how Varys is full of shit and having some tutors doesn't make a kid a good king.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

I think Aegon is definitely Aegon. The mummer's dragon could refer to him being linked to Varys, as was said, or him traveling around in disguise playing a role that is not him.

 

[JerkShep]

Aegon gained my support with the "Fuck off let's go to Westeros" thing. Too bad he will probably die in the next book, maybe he'll try to awake the dragons after conquering Dragonstone and it'll be Summerhall all over again.

 

[Tacitus_]

She was ruthless in ASOS when she was sacking cities and killing slavers left and right.

Yeah, but then she freed a bunch of slaves and got stuck with a shitton of mouths to feed who were calling her Mother and revering her like a goddess.

 

[Puddles]

Dany sacked Yunkai with like 8000 Unsullied. I don't see why she couldn't have just smashed them again. She should have let Barristan command her army and beat the stuffing out of those rag-tag Yunkish divisions.

It seems even more ridiculous now that we know that dragons aren't going to be killed by a stray arrow (seems like they can tank a significant amount of damage). The whole siege could have been ended in a two page chapter. Fuck it, one sentence (Rhaegal kills them all).

 

[ezrarh]

You know, I kinda took a liking to Victarion in the book, even though he didn't even accomplish his goals. I hope he takes Dany's dragons, makes a salt wife out of her and get back to Westeros because god knows we can't expect Dany to go back herself.