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Albert Penello puts dGPU Xbox One rumor to rest

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chadskin

Member
People don't actually care about it . Those who wanted a ps3 last gen as their only system still did it dispite playing multi plats worse than the 360. Almost the same amount of people bought a ps3 as an xbox 360 dispite the 360 having the edge graphicly on multiplatform games.


All the arguing here about things the majority of the people on this forum don't even fully understand is just wasted key strokes. The vast majority of console buyers will buy what is postioned the best way or what is the same as they had last time.

People don't/didn't care because the differences were rather minimal for the most part. People care if the differences are as big as PS360 <-> Wii or PS4Bone <-> WiiU.

It remains to be seen how big they are this time around with the PS4 and X1. A 50% performance difference would be significant.
 
On paper, the specs are quite different. I just don't understand how Albert can keep saying there, basically, is no gap in power......

He's not saying there's basically no gap in power, he's claiming (perhaps wrongly) that the gap is nowhere as big as what many people believe. He's also not talking about the obvious difference in GPU performance, but the performance of the whole system, which are two very different things. When you focus your attention on separate components, while losing sight of the big picture, you're bound to end up with a very skewed perspective. For many people, especially laymen and internet "experts", last time around it was the CPU (CPU floating point performance, to be a bit more precise), and this time the most obvious differentiator it's the GPU.

As time passes and we're exposed to more information about these systems, it's becoming more and more clear that their architectures are not "basically the same", which was the early claim. Yes, their main components share many architectural similarities, but there are still plenty of differences in the ways that their overarching architectures are put together, and the ways that data is marshaled around the system (and then on top of that there are layers of differences in drivers, software, and so on). Those differences could have a profound effect on the overall performance, and we still don't have the whole picture (and even if we did, 95% of people talking about these things lack the professional expertise needed to gain a proper insight into all the repercussions; I don't claim such expertise for myself either, but having been formally educated on the basics of computer architecture and organization, at last I'm aware of the fact that my - our - knowledge is very limited). In the end, Xbox One (and PS4 just as well) could end up performing better or worse than what the specs that have been publicly released so far may suggest, but Penello and others are absolutely and undeniably right when they claim that specs on paper don't tell the whole story.
 
They could have stayed silent.

They probably figured that too many people were talking about it and were worried it'd continue to spread, so they decided to try and create some doubt, no matter how ludicrous the claims are. You can even see in this very thread that it's worked on some, though they were probably already converted long beforehand anyway.
 

Mask

Member
To be honest, I'm not surprised that the numbers Penello provided are calculated wrong.

It seems like, up until about a month ago, the One was in the midst of an identity crisis. Is it a media box? Is it a Games Console?
Only after they saw the preorder numbers, and the general public dislike, did they shake up the whole department and remold it into a games
console again.

With the One, you have a device that was a general media device first, and a games console second, and now that they're scrambling to keep their
market share from being taken by the PS4, they've made some last minute adjustments to the CPU clock.

Meanwhile, the PS4 has been designed for one purpose, and any media apps are a built around a system made for games, rather than games
being built around a system made for TV and media, like the One.

It's also naive of Mr Penello to undermine the work that has gone into designing the PS4. Mark Cerny is a very clever man, and there's no doubt
that he designed the PS4 to take advantage of some very advanced tech, and it's pretty likely that there are similar optimizations that devs could
perform on the PS4 that are equal to the "secret sauce" MS seems keen on touting.

Instead of trying to obfuscate the details, because, at the end of the day, the PS4 is the more powerful console here, MS should focus on pushing
Kinect and the TV features, and try to convince consumers why they should spend an extra hundred bucks on their console.
 

Dragon

Banned
And Steam doesn't allow me to sell my games while MS's steam would.


See how it works.

Yeah we have no idea how that would have worked. But by all means ignore the consumer issues with the original Xbone online structure in favor of a feature MS went into almost no detail about. smh
 

FINALBOSS

Banned
Is it a marathon ? This generation can unfold much quicker than last gen with either company jumping out with a new system quickly.

x86 + amd means in 4 or 5 years they can grab amd's newest low powered cpu with amd's newest gpu tech and release the xbox two or ps5 and start this all over again.

Nintendo who has been out for a year could decide to cut the gen short and in year 3 of the ps4/one they could simply put out a monster of a console. Things like stacked ram / ddr 4 and other tech inovations will hit in that time frame.


Both companies have made statements about their intentions for another 10 year cycle. Granted it won't be 10 years for the next systems to come out..but 7-8 for sure.

Basis is this:

1. Personally, I've seen both systems and games live at E3, Gamescom, and PAX. Played a little bit of PS4 games at PAX. There are great looking games on both systems. Ryse looks great, Forza is fantastic. I think Killzone looks awesome, and honestly have not been impressed with DriveClub (although it came a LONG way since E3). I really would like to see Infamous in person, but it hasn't been shown that I've seen. However, any difference between those games is subjective of course and subject to viewer bias, but looking at both systems it's hard to substantiate any claims around 40% - 50%

So essentially what you're refuting is that there isn't a 40-50% power difference for games at LAUNCH, correct?

That was never a point of contention. We've all assumed that the difference would be small at launch. It's later that we're talking about.
 
Basis is this:

1. Personally, I've seen both systems and games live at E3, Gamescom, and PAX. Played a little bit of PS4 games at PAX. There are great looking games on both systems. Ryse looks great, Forza is fantastic. I think Killzone looks awesome, and honestly have not been impressed with DriveClub (although it came a LONG way since E3). I really would like to see Infamous in person, but it hasn't been shown that I've seen. However, any difference between those games is subjective of course and subject to viewer bias, but looking at both systems it's hard to substantiate any claims around 40% - 50%

2. We're in the final stages of game and SW development now. We're working closely with 3rd parties as we approach launch. Reports we're hearing back from developers consistently are confirming that cross-plat games are running the same on both platforms.

I believe there is a point back near E3 where developers would have said their games were running better on PS4. I think Marc Whitten made the point that we'd just completed some driver work about a month ago just before Gamescom. And look at the frame-rate improvements in DR3 between Gamescom and PAX. We're making huge strides in our SW stability, and again, we have customized and balanced the system to reduce bottlenecks and optimize performance, in ways that aren't seen in the published specs.

As to the follow-up questions; I posted earlier I'm working with the engineers directly who I think (and you guys think) will be more credible than I am. I did say that I went to them for some supporting points which I posted here - so at this point it's probably best to let them speak on it. I'm not sure when, but more detail will show up.

It's late, and it's clear I'm doing more harm then good at this point. So best to let this rest from my seat and get back to you guys with the most credible source.

Thank you for taking the time and posting here Mr. Penello. Some of us do appreciate you taking the time to do so.
 
I don't think people are expecting severe differences come launch. It's a marathon not a race when it comes to these consoles.

It's already apparent in first party for sure. Killzone easily the best looking of the bunch and Infamous the best looking of the second-wave games.



How can you say people don't actually care about it?

There's been multiple people in this thread ALONE that said they bought the version that played best. Also see ANY digital foundry thread on this forum.

People VERY much care what system plays multiplats the best.
Its a marathon but the way these threads have been going you would be for sure its a sprint. Its a marathon that both consoles are running.

And no what you believe is subjective. Killzone and Infamous is what you think is the best looking.
 

eastmen

Banned
How can you say people don't actually care about it?

There's been multiple people in this thread ALONE that said they bought the version that played best. Also see ANY digital foundry thread on this forum.

People VERY much care what system plays multiplats the best.
because dispite costing more the entire gen , being larger and less powerfull (all things true or claiming to be true here on the forum for the one) the ps3 still sold as much as the xbox 360.

So how do you explain the massive shift in gamers from PS2 to the 360?
THe ps2 became the default console that gen. Dreamcast failed rather quickly in the gen , the gamecube never took off and ms made a lot of dumb mistakes with their first console and was what 18 + months late to the generation.

MS' steam wouldn't have sold games to you for a massive discount either.

Why , there are already great Xbox live sales. I actually now get 2 games free a month. That's more than what I get on steam.

We can do this all day. There were a lot of innovative pro consumer things about ms's drm which would have made for a great console experience. I for one actually miss it as it would have provided me with 90% of the same experience I currently enjoy with steam / origin and then some other perks like game sharing , game selling. The only con is 24 hour internet checks. But I don't use my consoles as a portable system so it wouldn't affect me much. Mabye it will affect others in some way that they would want to carry a very large system + tv + some type of power source to run it around . Having a cell phone and the ability to turn it into a hot spot means of the few times I would move my console some where , I would have coverage to connect it once every 24 hours
 

Row

Banned
perception = reality and MS is really ramping up the rhetoric to try and make people think no such power difference exists, god help us if they pay 3rd parties for performance equivalency
 
Albert, thanks for coming on this board, and especially for continuing to post in the face of some pretty outlandish vitriol. Seeing you and Larry do this outreach here on your own time is really great.

What you note above is completely reasonable. It's a real shame that anyone here would make this dialog a personal thing; you are doing your job w/r/t/ PR.

That said, I encourage you not to get too defensive when people DO make it personal. You're representing a hugely important company in the sector that this forum is dedicated to. That company has, in very recent memory:

  1. Crafted a series of policies for their upcoming product that were widely acknowledged as being extremely anti-consumer.
  2. Been highly evasive and borderline hostile when questioned about those policies.
  3. On many occasions, been accused (often with proof) of employing "astroturfers" to manipulate public opinion here, Reddit, and other gaming websites.
That's a big hole to dig out of, man. There's going to be hatred directed at you, because you're the face of a company that many of us feel betrayed us. But FWIW and as I'm sure you know, there are a lot of us that are reading this all with great interest. We're the guys that not only spend thousands of dollars a year on this hobby, but are asked by everyone we know for recommendations or buying advice. I hope you can convince us.

God damn, if MORE people showcased this level of respect and restraint in dealing with Albert while also making their criticisms, we would actually get somewhere. Some people are clearly in this to draw blood, create drama and fireworks.

While I'm on the other side of the fence, and actually liked some of those policies, I have to agree with this post. I respect Albert for coming here and communicating with us directly, even when the answers are what people don't want to hear (ALBERT WHERE'S THAT EXTRA GPU?! WHERE IS IT!? IT'S IN THE POWERBRICK, ISN'T IT? LIAR!)

On a serious note, some people here could take a lesson or two from Angry Joe. Remember that interview with majornelson?

He wasn't his usual, angry self, but he made valid points and asked some good questions, and even turned out to be pretty spot on regarding one of the most contentious issues in that interview. And I remember the crap he got from some people for not going after Majornelson more, or not yelling, or "calling him on his bullshit" in a more aggressive manner. And when he was detailing what his thought process was on the interview, and why he approached it the way he did, I think then and there this guy, to me anyway, showcased that he actually got it and understood what he went into that interview to do more than a lot of his viewers did. He comes off angry in his video blogs, but he has respect for the roles and positions that these people hold, even if he disagrees with the things they say and do. Nobody is saying you have to kiss their ass, even though it might seem that way. The point I'm trying to make is that interview wasn't about Angry Joe, and he knew that all too well. It was about trying to strike the right kind of balance to get the answers that he felt people wanted and deserved.

He had to explain why he approached Larry with the level of respect and restraint that he did to a lot of people, but I didn't require that explanation, because I thought it was self explanatory, but it was something that a lot of people needed to hear, and I'm glad a guy like Angry Joe said it.

Its a marathon but the way these threads have been going you would be for sure its a sprint. Its a marathon that both consoles are running.

And no what you believe is subjective. Killzone and Infamous is what you think is the best looking.

I give Killzone the second place prize. Top price has to go to Ryse for me after that latest vidoc. Best looking next gen console game I've seen. In fact, I'm seriously beginning to doubt whether we're looking at actual Xbox One footage, and not some monster pc rig. infamous also looks amazing, too, but which game people thinks look best is definitely subjective, especially when you've got some truly incredible looking games out there. One thing that's clear is I don't think anybody can look at Ryse and say the graphics aren't incredibly impressive, and neither do I think anybody can say such a thing about Killzone.
 
Man... these MS people, they just make me desire their box even less every time they try and spread incorrect information to try (and unfortunately do) misinform and give fuel to the secret sauce worshipers.
 

Proelite

Member
Basis is this:

1. Personally, I've seen both systems and games live at E3, Gamescom, and PAX. Played a little bit of PS4 games at PAX. There are great looking games on both systems. Ryse looks great, Forza is fantastic. I think Killzone looks awesome, and honestly have not been impressed with DriveClub (although it came a LONG way since E3). I really would like to see Infamous in person, but it hasn't been shown that I've seen. However, any difference between those games is subjective of course and subject to viewer bias, but looking at both systems it's hard to substantiate any claims around 40% - 50%

2. We're in the final stages of game and SW development now. We're working closely with 3rd parties as we approach launch. Reports we're hearing back from developers consistently are confirming that cross-plat games are running the same on both platforms.

I believe there is a point back near E3 where developers would have said their games were running better on PS4. I think Marc Whitten made the point that we'd just completed some driver work about a month ago just before Gamescom. And look at the frame-rate improvements in DR3 between Gamescom and PAX. We're making huge strides in our SW stability, and again, we have customized and balanced the system to reduce bottlenecks and optimize performance, in ways that aren't seen in the published specs.

As to the follow-up questions; I posted earlier I'm working with the engineers directly who I think (and you guys think) will be more credible than I am. I did say that I went to them for some supporting points which I posted here - so at this point it's probably best to let them speak on it. I'm not sure when, but more detail will show up.

It's late, and it's clear I'm doing more harm then good at this point. So best to let this rest from my seat and get back to you guys with the most credible source.

I think people are underestimating how much performance drivers / SDKs can give or take away. If rumors were to be believed Microsoft tools were far back Sony's at one point.

PS3 performance increased dramatically years AFTER launch because Sony engineers worked hard to free up OS reservations etc.
 
This thread has run its course now. Devolved into ever facet of the warz possible. EDIT: Missed the latest albert post to spark more conversation.
 

Dragon

Banned
Why , there are already great Xbox live sales. I actually now get 2 games free a month. That's more than what I get on steam.

We can do this all day. There were a lot of innovative pro consumer things about ms's drm which would have made for a great console experience. I for one actually miss it as it would have provided me with 90% of the same experience I currently enjoy with steam / origin and then some other perks like game sharing , game selling

Seriously, take a step back. You're not making sense. And crowing about the free games MS is giving you for being an Xbox Live Gold member is puzzling, considering the lack of quality in those titles for the most part.
 
Basis is this:

1. Personally, I've seen both systems and games live at E3, Gamescom, and PAX. Played a little bit of PS4 games at PAX. There are great looking games on both systems. Ryse looks great, Forza is fantastic. I think Killzone looks awesome, and honestly have not been impressed with DriveClub (although it came a LONG way since E3). I really would like to see Infamous in person, but it hasn't been shown that I've seen. However, any difference between those games is subjective of course and subject to viewer bias, but looking at both systems it's hard to substantiate any claims around 40% - 50%

2. We're in the final stages of game and SW development now. We're working closely with 3rd parties as we approach launch. Reports we're hearing back from developers consistently are confirming that cross-plat games are running the same on both platforms.

I believe there is a point back near E3 where developers would have said their games were running better on PS4. I think Marc Whitten made the point that we'd just completed some driver work about a month ago just before Gamescom. And look at the frame-rate improvements in DR3 between Gamescom and PAX. We're making huge strides in our SW stability, and again, we have customized and balanced the system to reduce bottlenecks and optimize performance, in ways that aren't seen in the published specs.

As to the follow-up questions; I posted earlier I'm working with the engineers directly who I think (and you guys think) will be more credible than I am. I did say that I went to them for some supporting points which I posted here - so at this point it's probably best to let them speak on it. I'm not sure when, but more detail will show up.

It's late, and it's clear I'm doing more harm then good at this point. So best to let this rest from my seat and get back to you guys with the most credible source.
This is a great post Albert, thanks for clearing that up.
Looking forward to hearing from the engineers about the tech :)

Although I'm looking forward to the UI demo a bit more, so hurry up with that! :p
 

Duxxy3

Member
Basis is this:

1. Personally, I've seen both systems and games live at E3, Gamescom, and PAX. Played a little bit of PS4 games at PAX. There are great looking games on both systems. Ryse looks great, Forza is fantastic. I think Killzone looks awesome, and honestly have not been impressed with DriveClub (although it came a LONG way since E3). I really would like to see Infamous in person, but it hasn't been shown that I've seen. However, any difference between those games is subjective of course and subject to viewer bias, but looking at both systems it's hard to substantiate any claims around 40% - 50%

2. We're in the final stages of game and SW development now. We're working closely with 3rd parties as we approach launch. Reports we're hearing back from developers consistently are confirming that cross-plat games are running the same on both platforms.

I believe there is a point back near E3 where developers would have said their games were running better on PS4. I think Marc Whitten made the point that we'd just completed some driver work about a month ago just before Gamescom. And look at the frame-rate improvements in DR3 between Gamescom and PAX. We're making huge strides in our SW stability, and again, we have customized and balanced the system to reduce bottlenecks and optimize performance, in ways that aren't seen in the published specs.

As to the follow-up questions; I posted earlier I'm working with the engineers directly who I think (and you guys think) will be more credible than I am. I did say that I went to them for some supporting points which I posted here - so at this point it's probably best to let them speak on it. I'm not sure when, but more detail will show up.

It's late, and it's clear I'm doing more harm then good at this point. So best to let this rest from my seat and get back to you guys with the most credible source.

gee i wonder why
 
1. Personally, I've seen both systems and games live at E3, Gamescom, and PAX. Played a little bit of PS4 games at PAX. There are great looking games on both systems.

2. We're in the final stages of game and SW development now. We're working closely with 3rd parties as we approach launch. Reports we're hearing back from developers consistently are confirming that cross-plat games are running the same on both platforms.

I believe there is a point back near E3 where developers would have said their games were running better on PS4. I think Marc Whitten made the point that we'd just completed some driver work about a month ago just before Gamescom.

1. Once again "games look great on both systems" is a completely subjective statement that says nothing about specs. We'll likely get 20-30% more performance at most tasks, and significantly more at GPGPU/hUMA related tasks, which is a big deal to certain gamers.

2. Maybe. That doesn't mean the hardware difference isn't there, and we've heard conflicting reports from other devs saying 40-50% better specs (not performance).

Yes MS has very smart people working on the X1 software, no doubt about it. But anything MS can do in software, Sony can do. The hardware will be the final determinant of optimal performance, which is in favor of PS4.
 

FINALBOSS

Banned
because dispite costing more the entire gen , being larger and less powerfull (all things true or claiming to be true here on the forum for the one) the ps3 still sold as much as the xbox 360.

PS3 is not less powerful than the 360. It's a wash between the 2. 360 had the better GPU, PS3 had the better CPU. PS3 ending up selling as much as the 360 because of exclusive titles and Sony's extensive first-party.

Its a marathon but the way these threads have been going you would be for sure its a sprint. Its a marathon that both consoles are running.

And no what you believe is subjective. Killzone and Infamous is what you think is the best looking.

Nah, it's fact.

Technical wise (i.e. the defintion of best looking/graphics...NOT art style) it's Killzone and Infamous. Nothing comes close.

This is a great post Albert, thanks for clearing that up.
Looking forward to hearing from the engineers about the tech :)

Although I'm looking forward to the UI demo a bit more so, so hurry up with that! :p

Uh..what did he clear up?
 

nick_622

Banned
Basis is this:

1. Personally, I've seen both systems and games live at E3, Gamescom, and PAX. Played a little bit of PS4 games at PAX. There are great looking games on both systems. Ryse looks great, Forza is fantastic. I think Killzone looks awesome, and honestly have not been impressed with DriveClub (although it came a LONG way since E3). I really would like to see Infamous in person, but it hasn't been shown that I've seen. However, any difference between those games is subjective of course and subject to viewer bias, but looking at both systems it's hard to substantiate any claims around 40% - 50%

2. We're in the final stages of game and SW development now. We're working closely with 3rd parties as we approach launch. Reports we're hearing back from developers consistently are confirming that cross-plat games are running the same on both platforms.

I believe there is a point back near E3 where developers would have said their games were running better on PS4. I think Marc Whitten made the point that we'd just completed some driver work about a month ago just before Gamescom. And look at the frame-rate improvements in DR3 between Gamescom and PAX. We're making huge strides in our SW stability, and again, we have customized and balanced the system to reduce bottlenecks and optimize performance, in ways that aren't seen in the published specs.

As to the follow-up questions; I posted earlier I'm working with the engineers directly who I think (and you guys think) will be more credible than I am. I did say that I went to them for some supporting points which I posted here - so at this point it's probably best to let them speak on it. I'm not sure when, but more detail will show up.

It's late, and it's clear I'm doing more harm then good at this point. So best to let this rest from my seat and get back to you guys with the most credible source.

Thanks for all you do Albert ... I for one greatly appreciate all of your efforts!! Ignore the haters and keep up the great work!!
 

Bsigg12

Member
Basis is this:

1. Personally, I've seen both systems and games live at E3, Gamescom, and PAX. Played a little bit of PS4 games at PAX. There are great looking games on both systems. Ryse looks great, Forza is fantastic. I think Killzone looks awesome, and honestly have not been impressed with DriveClub (although it came a LONG way since E3). I really would like to see Infamous in person, but it hasn't been shown that I've seen. However, any difference between those games is subjective of course and subject to viewer bias, but looking at both systems it's hard to substantiate any claims around 40% - 50%

2. We're in the final stages of game and SW development now. We're working closely with 3rd parties as we approach launch. Reports we're hearing back from developers consistently are confirming that cross-plat games are running the same on both platforms.

I believe there is a point back near E3 where developers would have said their games were running better on PS4. I think Marc Whitten made the point that we'd just completed some driver work about a month ago just before Gamescom. And look at the frame-rate improvements in DR3 between Gamescom and PAX. We're making huge strides in our SW stability, and again, we have customized and balanced the system to reduce bottlenecks and optimize performance, in ways that aren't seen in the published specs.

As to the follow-up questions; I posted earlier I'm working with the engineers directly who I think (and you guys think) will be more credible than I am. I did say that I went to them for some supporting points which I posted here - so at this point it's probably best to let them speak on it. I'm not sure when, but more detail will show up.

It's late, and it's clear I'm doing more harm then good at this point. So best to let this rest from my seat and get back to you guys with the most credible source.

Thanks for taking the time to talk with us. Should be interesting to hear if you're (the tech Fellows/Microsoft as a whole) able to comment on the real in depth technical stuff some of the folks on here are looking for.
 
Not sure if serious. Using the launch titles to gauge the difference in power IS dumb. I don't know how else to put it. Not sure if this your first one but we have been through plenty of console launches before..it's a cycle and it doesn't become as apparent at launch itself. But do note the following

I was referring to multiplat games. Most of the launch multiplat games are cross gen. Doubt any of them will make proper use of the hardware..on either of the consoles

Exclusives will definitely give a good indication...never argued against that. But that was not what I was referring to. To compare things like frame rate differences, as Penello was talking about, you will have to use multiplats.

Hope that clears things up for you. Don't eat up PR from either side. Specs are there for us to see. There's nothing exotic or hard to measure like the cell this time around despite le clowds mantra of MS. It's pretty straightforward. Thinking otherwise is setting yourself up for disappointment.

So PS4 is 50% more powerful and definitevly easier to develop for. Any rebuttal is pointless including ones that use actual software as evidence. The proof won't be in the pudding, so to speak, for several years time.

So this by definition is a pointless debate. There can be no resolution for several years and despite actual software coming it is "stupid" to use that as evidence. It will be theoretical capabilities based on hardware numbers that decides the discussion.

Alright then, I'm out. This discussion has clearly run it's course, at least until sometime late 2016 or so.
 

eastmen

Banned
PS3 is not less powerful than the 360. It's a wash between the 2. 360 had the better GPU, PS3 had the better CPU. PS3 ending up selling as much as the 360 because of exclusive titles and Sony's extensive first-party.



Nah, it's fact.

Technical wise (i.e. the defintion of best looking/graphics...NOT art style) it's Killzone and Infamous. Nothing comes close.



Uh..what did he clear up?

The multiplatform games tell a different story , the vast majority are better on the 360 , run in higher resolutions with better frame rates. As I said it didn't stop people from buying the ps3.
 

FINALBOSS

Banned
God damn, if MORE people showcased this level of respect and restraint in dealing with Albert while also making their criticisms, we would actually get somewhere. Some people are clearly in this to draw blood, create drama and fireworks.

While I'm on the other side of the fence, and actually liked some of those policies, I have to agree with this post. I respect Albert for coming here and communicating with us directly, even when the answers are what people don't want to hear (ALBERT WHERE'S THAT EXTRA GPU?! WHERE IS IT!? IT'S IN THE POWERBRICK, ISN'T IT? LIAR!)

On a serious note, some people here could take a lesson or two from Angry Joe. Remember that interview with majornelson?

He wasn't his usual, angry self, but he made valid points and asked some good questions, and even turned out to be pretty spot on regarding one of the most contentious issues in that interview. And I remember the crap he got from some people for not going after Majornelson more, or not yelling, or "calling him on his bullshit" in a more aggressive manner. And when he was detailing what his thought process was on the interview, and why he approached it the way he did, I think then and there this guy, to me anyway, showcased that he actually got it and understood what he went into that interview to do more than a lot of his viewers did. He comes off angry in his video blogs, but he has respect for the roles and positions that these people hold, even if he disagrees with the things they say and do. Nobody is saying you have to kiss their ass, even though it might seem that way. The point I'm trying to make is that interview wasn't about Angry Joe, and he knew that all too well. It was about trying to strike the right kind of balance to get the answers that he felt people wanted and deserved.

He had to explain why he approached Larry with the level of respect and restraint that he did to a lot of people, but I didn't require that explanation, because I thought it was self explanatory, but it was something that a lot of people needed to hear, and I'm glad a guy like Angry Joe said it.



I give Killzone the second place prize. Top price has to go to Ryse for me after that latest vidoc. Best looking next gen console game I've seen. In fact, I'm seriously beginning to doubt whether we're looking at actual Xbox One footage, and not some monster pc rig. infamous also looks amazing, too, but which game people thinks look best is definitely subjective, especially when you've got some truly incredible looking games out there. One thing that's clear is I don't think anybody can look at Ryse and say the graphics aren't incredibly impressive, and neither do I think anybody can say such a thing about Killzone.


What a surprise, people hate being lied to.

The multiplatform games tell a different story , the vast majority are better on the 360 , run in higher resolutions with better frame rates. As I said it didn't stop people from buying the ps3.

Of course not. But most multiplatforms sold better on 360. And with the difference in those multiplats, 360 and PS3 were much closer in power compared to this upcoming gen where the gap is MUCH wider.

So PS4 is 50% more powerful and definitevly easier to develop for. Any rebuttal is pointless including ones that use actual software as evidence. The proof won't be in the pudding, so to speak, for several years time.

So this by definition is a pointless debate. There can be no resolution for several years and despite actual software coming it is "stupid" to use that as evidence. It will be theoretical capabilities based on hardware numbers that decides the discussion.

Alright then, I'm out. This discussion has clearly run it's course, at least until sometime late 2016 or so.

It's not a pointless debate. This isn't 360/PS3 with wildly different architecture. These are identical architectures developed by the same manufacturer. The proof is in the specs. PS4 has the clear power advantage.
 

Proelite

Member
So PS4 is 50% more powerful and definitevly easier to develop for. Any rebuttal is pointless including ones that use actual software as evidence. The proof won't be in the pudding, so to speak, for several years time.

So this by definition is a pointless debate. There can be no resolution for several years and despite actual software coming it is "stupid" to use that as evidence. It will be theoretical capabilities based on hardware numbers that decides the discussion.

Alright then, I'm out. This discussion has clearly run it's course, at least until sometime late 2016 or so.

If that's the case, then what's the point for better specs?

No one is going to care by then. The internet runs on instant gratification.
 

beast786

Member
Basis is this:

1. Personally, I've seen both systems and games live at E3, Gamescom, and PAX. Played a little bit of PS4 games at PAX. There are great looking games on both systems. Ryse looks great, Forza is fantastic. I think Killzone looks awesome, and honestly have not been impressed with DriveClub (although it came a LONG way since E3). I really would like to see Infamous in person, but it hasn't been shown that I've seen. However, any difference between those games is subjective of course and subject to viewer bias, but looking at both systems it's hard to substantiate any claims around 40% - 50%

2. We're in the final stages of game and SW development now. We're working closely with 3rd parties as we approach launch. Reports we're hearing back from developers consistently are confirming that cross-plat games are running the same on both platforms.

I believe there is a point back near E3 where developers would have said their games were running better on PS4. I think Marc Whitten made the point that we'd just completed some driver work about a month ago just before Gamescom. And look at the frame-rate improvements in DR3 between Gamescom and PAX. We're making huge strides in our SW stability, and again, we have customized and balanced the system to reduce bottlenecks and optimize performance, in ways that aren't seen in the published specs.

As to the follow-up questions; I posted earlier I'm working with the engineers directly who I think (and you guys think) will be more credible than I am. I did say that I went to them for some supporting points which I posted here - so at this point it's probably best to let them speak on it. I'm not sure when, but more detail will show up.

It's late, and it's clear I'm doing more harm then good at this point. So best to let this rest from my seat and get back to you guys with the most credible source.

make sense. After watching static lighting on Forza , the dynamic lightning of DriveClub probably looked like an artifact

;p
 

stonesak

Okay, if you really insist
The multiplatform games tell a different story , the vast majority are better on the 360 , run in higher resolutions with better frame rates. As I said it didn't stop people from buying the ps3.

But they bought more games on the 360.
 
1. What piece of information would you want that I could provide that would convince you there is not a huge delta in performance?

2. If it comes out after we launch that the difference between 3rd party games is maybe single-digit FPS between the two platforms, will I get an apology or concession?

Albert, huge Xbox fan here, but I own every current gen console and will buy all "next gen" consoles as well. I've got a gaming pc too, so I'm an equal opportunity gamer. I go where the games are.

When the Xbox 360 and PS3 were released, I thought the unified memory pool, ease of anti-aliasing implementation, and other features were well-thought out. Red Ring of Death issues aside, I loved the console. I say this as someone who went through 11 Xbox 360's, most of which were covered under the Microsoft warranty that I bought with my launch day unit. But anyway, onto the questions.

1a. Does the 32 megs (quantity) of eSRAM function as a true "bottleneck" to the system? Does the speed of the DDR3 function as a bottleneck? Or, does the eSRAM successfully eliminate almost all bottlenecks and give a truly higher bandwidth only limited by the clock speeds of the cpu/gpu? A very clear discussion about the bandwidth and memory management needs to be made, which includes numbers and justifications using math. Many people on GAF argue about the total bandwidth of the system, and this probably needs to be clarified. What is the eSRAM speed, how does it function in coordination with the DDR3, and where are the bottlenecks in the system? Specific detail would help.

1b. There has been much discussion about the Xbox One's "secret sauce" or special, largely unknown and undisclosed features that could mitigate the brute force approach of the PS4's design and perceived bandwidth advantage. Depending on whose numbers you believe, this advantage may or may not truly exist. For example, do the "move engines" the awesome audio chip, or any other specialized hardware optimize bandwidth usage or lessen the load on the eSRAM or the cpu/gpu in such a manner that it would make less overall bandwidth necessary? For example, the audio chip does work that would otherwise be done by the cpu. Is there any other special hardware that eases the burden on the main system memory and cpu/gpu usage, and if so, by how much (a few cycles, an estimated number of "flops" etc)? People on GAF like to argue numbers, so perhaps give them some.

Here, and in the next question, I'm giving you the opportunity to explain the optimizations made in the Xbox One that may not be apparent in a simple numbers to numbers game. This is your chance to discuss any "secret sauce", if there is any. When you answer this question, keep in mind that the PS4 likely has specialized chips as well, and that PS4 fanboys will simply say "the PS4 has the same chips/technology inside it". So, it would be best to give some specific detail, to the best of you knowledge, as to how the Xbox One's specialized hardware is optimized to make full use of the bandwidth in the system.

1c. Like the question above, does the Xbox One have any special software features that would make the system more efficient. For example, I hear that DirectX 11.2 uses a new form of Texture Block Compression (Block Compression DDS?)? How does this help maximize system performance, and while Sony no doubt has similar technologies in PSSL, I suspect that there are some differences between the two (DirectX 11.2 vs. PSSL). What specific software features make the Xbox One unique, or at the minimum, what features do you suspect will be superior in the Xbox One?

Basically, you said earlier in the thread "we have customized and balanced the system to reduce bottlenecks and optimize performance, in ways that aren't seen in the published specs." I and many other GAF members would love to hear about this stuff. However, keep in mind that half the crowd here will scream "But the PS4 team did the same thing!", so be sure that you really emphasize how what you guys did is really different and special in some fashion. The hardware (and maybe software) are very different from the PS4, so I feel like you guys should be able to give some interesting discussion.

1d. How fast is the blu-ray drive?

2. I doubt very many people on GAF will apologize.

3. .Here are some random questions and comments that you may or may not choose to answer. Maybe GAF can answer some of these for me.

-- If you really want to clear the air, ask John Carmack run some benchmarks using the PS4 and Xbox One. Ask him to make a blog post or give a speech or AMA about the differences between the two consoles. Universally, he is viewed as the king of hardware and coding, so there is no better person to give an unbiased discussion of the two consoles. He has already mentioned, I think, that they are near parity, so I doubt anything bad would be said about either console in his discussion. People may not listen to a MS employee (there is some blind PS4 fanboyism and MS hate around here), but they will listen to Carmack.

-- The Xbox One uses a special chip to to encode game video for the dvr feature if I remember correctly. Does the PS4 have a similar chip? Or is it done using the main processor.

-- Will we ever be allowed to record more than 5 minutes of gameplay? That is one of the disappointing features to me of the Xbox One. It's a very multimedia oriented device, which I'm ok with, yet the PS4 announces support for 15 minutes of gameplay recording. Will games allow for one button access to the recording feature, much like the PS4 does?

-- What is the system flash memory used for? OS updates? To store the actual OS? I suspect the OS runs from the flash memory which would allow for super-fast system boots. Is it on the flash memory, and is there anything else on there?

-- The DRM setup and "download history" on the Xbox 360 are horrendous. Any updates to either of those? Will I at least be able to search my download history? Will the Xbox One allow me to transfer my DRM rights more than once a year?

Maybe I should be asking Major Nelson some of these questions as well.
 

chadskin

Member
I give Killzone the second place prize. Top price has to go to Ryse for me after that latest vidoc. Best looking next gen console game I've seen.

One might argue inFamous is open-world (read: more demanding hardware-wise) whereas Ryse is a heavily scripted linear experience. DR3 looks amazing though and it's an open-world game so that might be a more fair comparison.
 
Basis is this:

1. Personally, I've seen both systems and games live at E3, Gamescom, and PAX. Played a little bit of PS4 games at PAX. There are great looking games on both systems. Ryse looks great, Forza is fantastic. I think Killzone looks awesome, and honestly have not been impressed with DriveClub (although it came a LONG way since E3). I really would like to see Infamous in person, but it hasn't been shown that I've seen. However, any difference between those games is subjective of course and subject to viewer bias, but looking at both systems it's hard to substantiate any claims around 40% - 50%

2. We're in the final stages of game and SW development now. We're working closely with 3rd parties as we approach launch. Reports we're hearing back from developers consistently are confirming that cross-plat games are running the same on both platforms.

I believe there is a point back near E3 where developers would have said their games were running better on PS4. I think Marc Whitten made the point that we'd just completed some driver work about a month ago just before Gamescom. And look at the frame-rate improvements in DR3 between Gamescom and PAX. We're making huge strides in our SW stability, and again, we have customized and balanced the system to reduce bottlenecks and optimize performance, in ways that aren't seen in the published specs.

As to the follow-up questions; I posted earlier I'm working with the engineers directly who I think (and you guys think) will be more credible than I am. I did say that I went to them for some supporting points which I posted here - so at this point it's probably best to let them speak on it. I'm not sure when, but more detail will show up.

It's late, and it's clear I'm doing more harm then good at this point. So best to let this rest from my seat and get back to you guys with the most credible source.

I know it may seem like I quote him a lot, but I do want to point out that we appreciate you taking the time. I don't see anything particularly inflammatory in what you said, and I do agree that it's best for the people who have a upperhand in the technical knowledge required to understand and piece together all the stuff this system is doing to take the lead, and I can't wait to see that information when it gets published.

We're going to hold you to this, Albert. We want to see a more thorough explanation of the Xbox One's hardware design. A lot of people won't care, but there's people out there that live to read this kind of stuff, even if we aren't experts ourselves. It's why we read up on these new CPUs, these new GPUs, hUMA and any number of other interesting bits of information. I honestly think the word cache and coherent has been said more times in the last few months than at any time in gaf's history. There's a reason for that. We're excited.
 

eastmen

Banned
Seriously, take a step back. You're not making sense. And crowing about the free games MS is giving you for being an Xbox Live Gold member is puzzling, considering the lack of quality in those titles for the most part.

I make perfect sense. I actually use steam often.


1) Steam allows me to shop around for the best deal. I bought two weeks after launch portal 2 at gamestop and saved $20 and was able to activate it on steam. This would be the same function with ms's original drm. I would be able to say buy dead rising on sale and convert it to DD as soon as I put it on my system. Thus I would be able to download it on any other system , play it with no disc and so on.

This is exactly the same as steam correct ?

2) Steam has sales - Xbox live had sales. Go into one of the threads.

3) Steam has an off line mode- xbox one drm would not have had this

4) Steam does not allow you to sell your games - xbox one drm would have allowed this

5) Steam does not allow you to lend games to your friends - xbox one drm would have allowed this .


I see one negative and 2 positive vs steam . Now its your turn to tell me how features aren't what ms claimed them to be and how ms would bait and switch what they were.

Cause that's always what happens instead of having a real conversation about it.
 
One might argue inFamous is open-world (read: more demanding hardware-wise) whereas Ryse is a heavily scripted linear experience. DR3 looks amazing though and it's an open-world game so that might be a more fair comparison.

A very fair point regarding Infamous' open world design, and it's why these things are so tough and can be largely subjective based on user preference. I do believe DR3 looks awesome, but I know if I bring that up, people are going to go throwing out some horribly unrepresentative screenshots of the game, and say how current gen it looks, but I think it looks damn good visually, and is one of the more technically underrated next gen console titles.
 

jusufin

Member
At least for me, the power difference doesn't matter. Do I want a console that has some power to it? Yes. Do I care if my console of choice is the most powerful? No. I knew a 360 would be weaker than a PS3 when I got one but that didn't bother me. I have had and continue to have fun with my 360 because I really don't give a rip about how powerful it is relative to other consoles. I will be getting an Xbox One at launch because I know that I'll have the same overall fun experience as I have had with the 360 plus a few nice extra things like TV integration, instant switching, snapping apps, and the new Kinect. The exclusives that I want to play will be there as will of course the multiplats. At the end of the day, people will get what the console that they think they will have the most fun with. I have had fun with PlayStation consoles in the past but I have had way more fun with Xbox consoles and so I will continue investing in the Xbox brand. Does this mean that I'm some crazed delusional looney that hates Sony? No. I hate the PS3 controller but that's about it. I'm not opposed to the idea of getting a PS4 at all but if I do it won't be for a long time. I say all of this to say this, as Obi-Wan Kenobi once said, "You must do what you feel is right of course."

I think this is the thing MS doesn’t understand right now. People play on 360 because of the features and games not because of the power. I don’t have anything against albert (he’s just towing the company line), I just wish MS would get itself together and start to use the things that they really have to sell itself to consumers. I bought the 360 first and the PS3 much later on last gen, but this time I don’t even know if a x1 is worth it. The tactics that they currently employ have done nothing to convince the average buyer. Most of us are not loons (TheKayle), and are not stupid enough to believe what you're selling. They tried it last time and look how that turned out (180). As an example, albert could have been honest and just told us that they decided to focus on making kinect what it should have been in the first place instead of trying to downplay the competitors vision. Yea there would have been some tears/lol but the goodwill they would have generated from actually being honest with us would have been better than this. Eventually people would accept it and move on and they could start to have a real discussion on the features. This just keeps it in the news and keeps hammering the difference home. It seems to me like they became unsure of the direction they planned for the console because of the original backlash and are now trying to position it as a PS4 like device. When its original design was much different. I am not counting the X1 out yet because I feel like there is still time for MS to get its act together and start to change the narrative, but the course they are on now is a waste of time.
 

FINALBOSS

Banned
I make perfect sense. I actually use steam often.


1) Steam allows me to shop around for the best deal. I bought two weeks after launch portal 2 at gamestop and saved $20 and was able to activate it on steam. This would be the same function with ms's original drm. I would be able to say buy dead rising on sale and convert it to DD as soon as I put it on my system. Thus I would be able to download it on any other system , play it with no disc and so on.

This is exactly the same as steam correct ?

2) Steam has sales - Xbox live had sales. Go into one of the threads.

3) Steam has an off line mode- xbox one drm would not have had this

4) Steam does not allow you to sell your games - xbox one drm would have allowed this

5) Steam does not allow you to lend games to your friends - xbox one drm would have allowed this .


I see one negative and 2 positive vs steam . Now its your turn to tell me how features aren't what ms claimed them to be and how ms would bait and switch what they were.

Cause that's always what happens instead of having a real conversation about it.

Really no point in arguing the pros and cons of MS DRM since the majority have voted it down and MS 180ed on it.
 

stonesak

Okay, if you really insist
Speaking of apologies Albert, if there is a third party game that runs significantly better on PS4 than Xbox One, will you (or MS) be willing to refund any Xbox One purchaser $500?
 

B.O.O.M

Member
So PS4 is 50% more powerful and definitevly easier to develop for. Any rebuttal is pointless including ones that use actual software as evidence. The proof won't be in the pudding, so to speak, for several years time.

So this by definition is a pointless debate. There can be no resolution for several years and despite actual software coming it is "stupid" to use that as evidence. It will be theoretical capabilities based on hardware numbers that decides the discussion.

Alright then, I'm out. This discussion has clearly run it's course, at least until sometime late 2016 or so.

it's like I'm singing to the deaf over here..did everything I say just go over your head?

'What' rebuttal? You didn't address what I said in the first place. I said to properly evaluate differences in hardware capabilities at launch is not possible. This is a fact. We have been through enough console generations to know this.

This doesn't mean we won't see 'any' difference between them....if the PS4 is indeed more powerful the games will show it. My point is that those games won't show how big the difference actually is at launch.

It will be a gradual thing. We will keep seeing evidence of it as time goes..it's not suddenly going to pop up several years down the road. So yes it's stupid to use them to guess the size of difference...but it's not stupid to use them to see if there IS a difference.

Let's talk again after the launch. 2 months away so not much of a wait. Let's see what system has the most technically impressive titles.
 
Seriously, take a step back. You're not making sense. And crowing about the free games MS is giving you for being an Xbox Live Gold member is puzzling, considering the lack of quality in those titles for the most part.
Fable (85%), Crackdown (83%), Dead Rising 2 (79%), Halo 3 (94%), Assassins Creed 2 (90%).
Old, sure. Lack of quality? Give me a break.
 

CLEEK

Member
Speaking of apologies Albert, if there is a third party game that runs significantly better on PS4 than Xbox One, will you (or MS) be willing to refund any Xbox One purchaser $500?

No.

Caveat emptor, dude. Buyer beware.

If you listen a salesmen without doing your homework, then find the product doesn't match up to their promises, you only have yourself to blame.

If tech specs matter to you, check multiple sources. Don't just listen to the non-technical salesman from one vendor.
 
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