Support NeoGAF

[Eccocid]

1/3 Great, 2/3 terrible, 3/3 awful.

the flute scene is the worst thing I've ever seen in my life, and I watched glee when I was a kid.

I thought flute scene was ace and it was a big metaphore about creativity and life.

I really loved how this film was less about Alien killing crew members (well it was but not the major part).

 

[SCULLIBUNDO]

I'd be interested to see Cameron's reaction to this film. His last say on Prometheus wasn't glowing.
http://www.vulture.com/2017/01/james-cameron-atlantis-rising-alien-covenant.html

 

[EVO]

Disappointing film.

Same goes for Prometheus. I finally got around to watching that a few days ago followed by the original film and man, rewatching the original reminded me how good it is, and how bad these films are in comparison.

I don't give a shit about David or any of the backstory, I just want to see a fully grown Alien picking off dudes one by one, preferably in a spaceship, but outdoors could work. I was actually excited when they landed on the planet and stepped foot into forest, there was so much potential in that setting. But it soon turned to shit once David and those little fuckers turned up.

 

[Toa TAK]

I'd be interested to see Cameron's reaction to this film. His last say on Prometheus wasn't glowing.
http://www.vulture.com/2017/01/james-cameron-atlantis-rising-alien-covenant.html

For anyone else:

On a completely different topic: How do you feel about the upcoming Alien sequel, Alien: Covenant?
The franchise has kind of wandered all over the map. Ridley [Scott] did the first film, and he inspired an entire generation of filmmakers and science-fiction fans with that one movie and there have been so many films that stylistically have derived from it, including my own Aliens, which was the legitimate sequel and, I think, the proper heir to his film. I sort of did it as a fanboy. I wanted to honor his film, but also say what I needed to say. After that, I don't take any responsibility.

I don't think it's worked out terribly well. I think we've moved on beyond it. It's like, okay, we've got it, we've got the whole Freudian biomechanoid meme. I've seen it in 100 horror films since. I think both of those films stand at a certain point in time, as a reference point. But is there any validity to doing another one now? I don't know. Maybe. Let's see, jury's out. Let's see what Ridley comes up with. Let me just add to that — and don't cut this part off, please — I will stand in line for any Ridley Scott movie, even a not-so-great one, because he is such an artist, he's such a filmmaker. I always learn from him. And what he does with going back to his own franchise would be fascinating.

Honestly, I think he nails it. Even down to the point of seeing any of Scott's films as they release, good or bad.

Good or bad.

Good or bad.

Good...

...or bad.

 

[s_mirage]

It was super dumb and lame. It was also definitely the engineer homeworld.

Nah, don't buy it. Not only did the inhabitants lack the statuesque appearance of the engineers, the rapturous response to the arriving spacecraft makes no sense for a race with god like tech. Not only that, IIRC apart from the spacecraft dock (which could have been installed for them) there's no sign of any advanced technology. No vehicles and no machines. It would also seem strange for the engineers to have no defence against their own bioweapon laden ships. Ships which seem to have been designed to carpet bomb targets.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

It's the homeworld.

 

[s_mirage]

It's the homeworld.

Based on what? The narrator's not necessarily in full possession of the facts, or reliable.

In pretty sure David says it in his explanation of how they came there.

He said Ozymandias was written by Byron too.

If Ridley Scott outright states it, I'll believe it, otherwise I'll assume that the makeup changes, lack of visible technology, etc, were not oversights from a director known for his attention to visual detail.

 

[SCULLIBUNDO]

Based on what?

In pretty sure David says it in his explanation of how they came there.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Pretty sure that's the stated destination at both the end of Prometheus and also in Covenant.

That's where they were going.

That's where they are.

Maybe there's other outposts? Who knows. If he wants more marshmallow gods for the sequel, he can come up with something, I bet. Just like he can still, despite showing David create facehugger and Egg from scratch, come up with a way to invent a Queen, too.

But as of this film, that's their homeworld, and those are the first eggs, huggers, and xenomorphs.

I'm betting there's an interview somewhere in which he states in outright. He's basically erasing all ambiguity in the press tour already, hah

 

[Kito]

But as of this film, that's their homeworld, and those are the first eggs, huggers, and xenomorphs.

Source? Scott never uses the word 'first'. 'David created the alien', but whether he is the first, or he just created an alien variant, is unknown.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

We've gone over this in the thread multiple times.

The source is both the text of the film itself and also an interview with Scott

 

[Mr. Sam]

It almost feels like a symptom of denial. "Oh man, this is all really dumb and underwhelming. Good thing it's all just a precursor to when we end up on the actual engineer homeworld and learn about the real first xenomorphs."

 

[Truant]

You'd think the Engineers wouldn't go out like bitches en masse. They seemed like such badasses in Prometheus.

The ones in Covenant seemed very different, I guess they were civvies.

 

[Alienfan]

It almost feels like a symptom of denial. "Oh man, this is all really dumb and underwhelming. Good thing it's all just a precursor to when we end up on the actual engineer homeworld and learn about the real first xenomorphs."

Sources though?

 

[Mr. Sam]

Sources though?

The film.

 

[Alienfan]

The film.

?? A bit vague. I've seen it twice and must have missed the part where they establish the planet as the engineer home world

 

[dosh]

?? A bit vague. I've seen it twice and must have missed the part where they establish the planet as the engineer home world

I think it's implicit. One of the main themes in these movies being "One's creation becomes one's downfall", the black cloud scene would be less absolute, and less impactful, if this planet was just a random engineers outpost.

 

[SuperEpicMan]

Quoting my thoughts from the early reactions thread:

I went to see this last night, and I have to say I was pretty disappointed with it. I will probably want to watch it again and mull over it to say for sure (sometimes I have rewatched films and found them much better the second time around), but for now I felt it was really weak.

For the record I quite liked Prometheus, whilst the story and characters were often seen as flawed when scrutinised, I felt the movie still delivered a lot to like. The visuals were fantastic, the premise was intriguing and draws you in quite quickly, David was fascinating and a lot of the movie delivered a sense of mystery. The film from start to finish attempts to be grandiose and philosophical, and whilst it often falls short of delivering this, it at least asks some interesting questions, and gives the views some interesting ideas to think about (namely the whole Engineer - Human - David relationship). So whilst it isn't always successful, I at least appreciated what it tried to achieve, and some of the interesting things it did have to say. I also loved the way the movie tried to tear away from being an Alien film, instead trying to cover new ground by pushing the series mythology outward, opposed to retreading worn out areas. The ending also had me quite excited and intrigued, as it teased a sequel which seemed to head in a direction I could not anticipate, in my head I was thinking "Where are they going?, What kind of place awaits them?, How will the movie handle just having 2 characters?" and so on, so I couldn't wait to see where they took that initial set up.

So coming to Alien: Covenant I expected to really love it, only to come away from it disappointed, I actually think Prometheus was a better film. Right of the bat, I found the set up and premise of the movie to be somewhat slow, whilst the initial scene with David and Weyland was somewhat interesting, the opening seems to just exist to push the story forward towards the planet. I kinda got the impression they tried wanted to replicate the same sort of cold opening Alien had, but in this it just comes across as somewhat dull. In Alien it works because the movie has a sense of mystery and the audience do not quite know what to expect, this allows the movie to slowly build tension and dread, right through to the end. In Covenant, we know what to expect so the beginning just kinda fell flat for me.

In terms of characters, I feel they were arguably weaker than those in Prometheus. Whilst I quite liked Katherine Waterston's and Danny McBrides performances, I felt like I never really got to know them as characters. Billy Crudup's character seemed to show the promise of being interesting and 3 dimensional, but the movie doesn't really spend the time to take his character anywhere other than face hugger chow. Whilst Michael Fassbender gave great performances as Walter and David, I felt Walter wasn't particularly interesting due to the nature of his character (a less flawed version of David), and really only seemed to exist to service the scenes with David. David whilst still quite compelling, seemed a lot less interesting this time around. Outside a few scenes which still show him to be a bit of an enigma (such as the one where he releases the virus on the engineers), he for the most part seems predictable this time around. The rest of the characters just seem to exist to be munched on.

With regards to the aliens, they were just there to provide gore and horror. Whilst there were a couple of good scenes, such the back bursting scene, and the scene where the neomorph attacks the woman in the cave. They didn't really do anything new or surprising with them, they almost never provide much in the way of tension, and they certainly are no longer 'alien'. They feel tired and overdone at this point, without an ounce of what made them interesting in the first place. The movie doesn't even really let you be surprised by them any more, for example, I quite liked the scene where the neomorph confronts the woman in the cave before biting her head off, but the audience sees it coming because the film telegraphs it earlier. I also quite liked the way they showed the world from the perspective of an alien, but again, it squanders the idea and doesn't do anything interesting with it.

Visually the film seems like a step down from Ridley Scott's previous movies. Whilst there are occasionally some inventive scenes such as the scene when the airlock opens, and some of the space sections at the start, the rest of it feels pretty weak. This was one area in particular which I thought was a safe bet, so I was quite surprised to see this take such as large step down. With regards to the film score, I did quite like the use of the original soundtrack, though I feel they relied maybe a bit too heavily on it, which kinda strips the movies soundtrack of its own identity.

Overall I enjoyed it, but I can't help but see the film as squandered potential. The set up from Prometheus was squandered, the themes and any philosophy just felt really half assed, the film is devoid of significant tension, and whilst there are a few good gruesome horror moments much of it is comprised of things we have seen time and again. The film tries to course correct the series back into full on Alien prequel mode, so that it can cover the same ground as before, whilst removing any shred of mystery that remained with the Aliens. I came out of the theatre thinking how it is not really a movie I watch again, which just feels crazy as I am a huge fan of the series in general. I will eventually watch it again, if only to try and solidify my thoughts on it.

 

[Laughing Banana]

I think it's implicit. One of the main themes in these movies being "One's creation becomes one's downfall", the black cloud scene would be less absolute, and less impactful, if this planet was just a random engineers outpost.

It's a bit weird about how the folks cheered the ship tho. It is as if they considered the ship is filled with royalty or something.

 

[exmachina64]

It's a bit weird about how the folks cheered the ship tho. It is as if they considered the ship is filled with royalty or something.

Interstellar travel takes a long time in that universe. One day, a ship presumed lost for potentially thousands of years shows up.

 

[CloudWolf]

Source? Scott never uses the word 'first'. 'David created the alien', but whether he is the first, or he just created an alien variant, is unknown.

He literally says: "The Engineers didn't create the Xenomorph, David did." I'm not sure how you can interpret that any other way.

 

[Rymuth]

Jesus was an Engineer and we killed Jesus, so the Engineers want to murder us all.

-_-

Why haven't actually sent someone to do the job in the last two thousand years?

 

[s_mirage]

It almost feels like a symptom of denial. "Oh man, this is all really dumb and underwhelming. Good thing it's all just a precursor to when we end up on the actual engineer homeworld and learn about the real first xenomorphs."

So how do you explain the inconsistencies with the engineers shown in Prometheus then? Hell, the engineers in Covenant even have different looking eyes compared to the ones in Prometheus. Plus, another engineer ship has to show up at some point to explain the one on LV-426, so it seems doubtful that we've seen the last of them (assuming the series continues).

Interstellar travel takes a long time in that universe. One day, a ship presumed lost for potentially thousands of years shows up.

If it's a civilization that looks likely to have had interstellar travel for at least a million years, you'd imagine that they'd be a bit harder to impress.

If it does turn out conclusively that it was the engineer homeworld in Covenant, and it's never explained how a society that should have god level tech were so easily punked, I'll have to be a bit worried about whether Ridley Scott is in full possession of his faculties. It would be a truly asinine waste of an interesting concept.

 

[nowarning]

Doesn't make sense, a lot of it doesn't, but unfortunately that's how it is.

 

[KarneeKarnay]

I thought the film was fine. Not great or bad. Just fine. There are plenty of problems with the film, the biggest being the fact that it has Alien attached to it. This isn't really a horror film, its a good sci-fi film.

By attaching Alien to it instead of doing it's own thing, it invites people to compare it to the Alien films. It's not an Alien film, because the real antagonist is not the

Spoiler

Alien

, its

Spoiler

David

.

There are horror elements in the film, but it felt almost lazy with them. For me the best sequence of the film

Spoiler

was in the drop ship, after the infected soldier comes back. It was pure adrenaline.

It was also the most original sequence in the film. The other sequence felt borrowed.

Spoiler

The Reeds was the raptors from Jurassic Park, the scene in the "safe" building might as well have been ripped off from any other haunted house film.

So on.

The best elements were expanding the lore about the universe and the relationship between the four main characters.

 

[KarneeKarnay]

If it does turn out conclusively that it was the engineer homeworld in Covenant, and it's never explained how a society that should have god level tech were so easily punked, I'll have to be a bit worried about whether Ridley Scott is in full possession of his faculties. It would be a truly asinine waste of an interesting concept.

I think some of this is implied. At some point the Engineers had some sort of Military. They made humanity, decided this was a mistake and were in the process of getting ready to wipe us all out. However there is an outbreak that wipes out their facility and instead of wiping out Humanity at a later point, they stop period.

I think something happened to their species between the creation of humanity to the films or before. Either the Xenomorph outbreak was not limited to one planet and wiped out most of their species , or there was some sort of civilisation wide event that wiped out most of their population before the first film. I base all this on the facts that no Engineers returned to the Prometheus planet or the Covenant one, and that technology appears to have regressed to a point of having no way to defend themselves.

Their species appears share the same environmental factors that Humanity has, but humanity has supposedly been having a real problem finding worlds that humanity could colonise. For a species with god like technology like the Engineers you would assume teraforming was an option, so why aren't there more? I think there was either a war or plague that forced them to destroy much of the worlds they used to own. LV426 Ship could have crashed during the conflict.

Those that survived turned to their religion for guidance and regressed to a point that allowed them to live comfortably. A ship returning after so many years, could have been seen as a reason to celebrate. Proof that their species still exists beyond this one world. I mean based off the size of the city, you can assume that their species was numbering in the thousands, maybe around a million at best. There could have been other cities on the planet, so that is debatable. I would assume that if the ship flow them there, that might have been at the very least considered a capital of some sort.

 

[Mr. Sam]

David is going to poo out a fully grown queen from his arse in the third one and people are still going to struggle to believe that Scott has, in fact, just lost it.

 

[Nocturno999]

The thing that disappointed me about the film besides the silly flute scene was the weak reasoning behind David's hatred for humanity.

It gave me the impression that he simply thought "lulz humans suck and must die for whatever reason".

Extremely weak or unexplained motivation behind his horrific acts.

 

[KarneeKarnay]

The thing that disappointed me about the film besides the silly flute scene was the weak reasoning behind David's hatred for humanity.

It gave me the impression that he simply thought "lulz humans suck and must die for whatever reason".

Extremely weak or unexplained motivation behind his horrific acts.

I agree. A much better scene that gives us more of a clue behind his reasoning, is the scene where it is pointed out that he made a mistake. A machine shouldn't be able to make a mistake like that, not without something being wrong. I think the film is implying that David is defective. You can expand more upon that, but beyond that it's really just an assumption as to why he did it. He certainly wasn't like this in the last film. He just did what wayland told him.

 

[Tony Redgrave]

He literally says: "The Engineers didn't create the Xenomorph, David did." I'm not sure how you can interpret that any other way.

I still maintain that he designed the Alien in it's current form but similar lifeforms like the Deacon existed before and the mural in Prometheus proves that. It's like creating a new, better dog breed.

However, I think it's clear that's the Engineer homeworld. It's verbalized in the prologue and Ridley talks in the interviews as if David definitely destroyed the Engineers. Also, the Xenomorphs as we know them egg/facehugger/Alien are defintely David's creation.

 

[daviyoung]

I still maintain that he designed the Alien in it's current form but similar lifeforms like the Deacon existed before and the mural in Prometheus proves that. It's like creating a new, better dog breed.

Muralmorph looks just like the jesusmorph before its sacrifice from Covenant. It's got that dopey long face.

I think it's a case of the writers doing all they can to tie things together than anything planned, known or coherent.

 

[b&jy77VjiKn$#F]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_kr8mAM5Dg

The production is impressive, no doubt.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

For the (very) few who were curious, my review is now live.

 

[EGM1966]

I thought the film was fine. Not great or bad. Just fine. There are plenty of problems with the film, the biggest being the fact that it has Alien attached to it. This isn't really a horror film, its a good sci-fi film.

By attaching Alien to it instead of doing it's own thing, it invites people to compare it to the Alien films. It's not an Alien film, because the real antagonist is not the

Spoiler

Alien

, its

Spoiler

David

.

There are horror elements in the film, but it felt almost lazy with them. For me the best sequence of the film

Spoiler

was in the drop ship, after the infected soldier comes back. It was pure adrenaline.

It was also the most original sequence in the film. The other sequence felt borrowed.

Spoiler

The Reeds was the raptors from Jurassic Park, the scene in the "safe" building might as well have been ripped off from any other haunted house film.

So on.

The best elements were expanding the lore about the universe and the relationship between the four main characters.

This isn't a good SF film. If it is I'm not sure the adjectives exist to convey how astonishingly amazing brilliant actual good SF films are.

It was lazy, unfocused and thematically lacking. It didn't even look as gorgeous as Prometheus. It was clearly efficiently made - there's no denying after The Martian, Prometheus and Covenant that Scott can make these films very cool st effectively vs other effects heavy films and deliver them on time/budget but (arguably The Martian aside) he seems to struggle making them narratively coherent and engaging.

Still I'm not going to lie: it was probably worth watching purely for the "I'll do the fingering" line.

 

[wesleyshark]

I still maintain that he designed the Alien in it's current form but similar lifeforms like the Deacon existed before and the mural in Prometheus proves that.

Also, the Xenomorphs as we know them egg/facehugger/Alien are defintely David's creation.

This

 

[exmachina64]

If it's a civilization that looks likely to have had interstellar travel for at least a million years, you'd imagine that they'd be a bit harder to impress.

If it does turn out conclusively that it was the engineer homeworld in Covenant, and it's never explained how a society that should have god level tech were so easily punked, I'll have to be a bit worried about whether Ridley Scott is in full possession of his faculties. It would be a truly asinine waste of an interesting concept.

KarneeKarney summarized my thoughts. I think it's self-evident that the Engineers as a powerful space-faring civilization collapsed long ago. Doesn't really matter much, Scott's best years are behind him and we're never going to get good or coherent explanations for any of this.

 

[Toa TAK]

For the (very) few who were curious, my review is now live.

Finally.


The biggest takeaway for me in there is Daniels. If she starts interesting then it stops short of that, it's a bummer.

And that falls short of Shaw. Barely, though.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

yeah, she really flattens out after David shows up. The climax hits and she basically goes straight to Ripley from Aliens/Alien 3 mode with the barking of orders and "Just let me do it"-ishness.

It feels a lot like they kept all the interesting stuff from the beginning only because you need it for the reveal at the very end of the film to pack more of a punch.

 

[MBison]

What's the sex/nudity content in this? IMDb says that a man and woman shower together and breast are shown. Any penis?

Asking for a friend.

 

[Produce]

What's the sex/nudity content in this? IMDb says that a man and woman shower together and breast are shown. Any penis?

Asking for a friend.

Brief shower scene, breasts barely shown, no dongers.

 

[MBison]

Brief shower scene, breasts barely shown, no dongers.

Lol thanks

 

[taizuke]

Was anyone bothered by Walter's self re-activation? That scene where David deactivates Walter was awesome, straight out of a one-kill blow from a martial arts movie. But, when suddenly Walter comes back and he says there's been some improvements to his model i felt it came out of nowhere.

David clearly deactivated Walter. I don't buy the explanation.

 

[Mr. Sam]

Was anyone bothered by Walter's self re-activation? That scene where David deactivates Walter was awesome, straight out of a one-kill blow from a martial arts movie. But, when suddenly Walter comes back and he says there's been some improvements to his model i felt it came out of nowhere.

David clearly deactivated Walter. I don't buy the explanation.

Presumably all androids have a reset button that you can stick a pen or whatever in but Walter's was in a different place and he was just... playing possum? I dunno.

 

[LordOfLore]

Presumably all androids have a reset button that you can stick a pen or whatever in but Walter's was in a different place and he was just... playing possum? I dunno.

His skin is clearly healing when David leaves. David needs to staple himself together later but Walter probably wouldn't have needed to.

 

[H1PSTER]

Presumably all androids have a reset button that you can stick a pen or whatever in but Walter's was in a different place and he was just... playing possum? I dunno.

It showed the switch in his neck moving after he got "knocked out"... So it could have been changed to a "reset" switch.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Saw the film yesterday. Really disappointed, it's like they learned nothing from Prometheus. There were so many dumb scenes/decisions in this film, just a few examples:

- When the captain decided to change the target planet of their mission in a matter of seconds. Wat. There must have been years, probably decades of exploration and preparation beforehand, and he did what?? Smh.

- Flying their only dropship to the planet through a storm, and later, steering the Covenant closer to the planet when the fucking computer is warning them of catastrophic danger.

- Landing immediately without doing any reconnaissance. Don't they have drones or something like that in the future?

- Entering an alien world without any spacesuits. ...

- Splitting up on an alien world, leaving the pilot behind alone.

- Interacting with alien plants and stuff without any protection.

- Nobody being really surprised about the presence of an Weyland employee and an android there.

- Nobody being suspicious of the strange way David was behaving as an android.

- The captain not being suspicious of David even after he saw all the creepy shit there, his decapitated crew member, the alien David tried to communicate with.

- Why didn't they disable David so that they can extract his data at a later point in time.

- The fight between David and Walter was bad, how did Walter not see that knife?

- How the hell was David able to steal Walter's identity? Why didn't they check if this was really Walter on the ship? He might have been able to fool the human crew, but not the ship's computer. There must have been an authentication process in place so that the ship's AI can identify an android. How could David extract and reverse engineer the authentication data from a more advanced android, which most likely was protected against this, in a matter of seconds/minutes? And what about his voice, which seemed damaged in the fight scene?

Why is it so hard for them to make a film that is believable? Then there was stuff like the crane/truck thing or the shower scene, which felt like they wanted to check an item from a list. Mehhh.

 

[Melchiah]

Saw the film yesterday. Really disappointed, it's like they learned nothing from Prometheus. There were so many dumb scenes/decisions in this film, just a few examples:

...

- Entering an alien world without any spacesuits. ...

- Interacting with alien plants and stuff without any protection.

- The captain not being suspicious of David even after he saw all the creepy shit there, his decapitated crew member, the alien David tried to communicate with.

- How the hell was David able to steal Walter's identity? Why didn't they check if this was really Walter on the ship? He might have been able to fool the human crew, but not the ship's computer. There must have been an authentication process in place so that the ship's AI can identify an android. How could David extract and reverse engineer the authentication data from a more advanced android, which most likely was protected against this, in a matter of seconds/minutes? And what about his voice, which seemed damaged in the fight scene.

Just saw the movie, and those stood out for me as well. The "twist" in the end was clear from the moment when David cut his hair to look like Walter, and when he didn't heal like Walter used to. It's beyond me how that detail went past the remaining crew.
EDIT: It was frustrating to wait, that the characters finally realize what was obvious for the viewer.

It was also hard to believe, that people prone to hysteria would be chosen for such a crucial mission. Let alone couples, when a possible accident would quite likely lead to emotional outbreaks and illogical decisions, like it did in the movie. Hell, since they have androids, why not use them for the crew while the humans sleep in stasis?

 

[Zousi]

The "twist" in the end

By the way, what gave away this shocking twist to Daniels there at the pod? That scene was kinda weird.

 

[Mr. Sam]

By the way, what gave away this shocking twist to Daniels there at the pod? That scene was kinda weird.

David didn't remember what Daniels said about building a log cabin earlier in the film. A little bit contrived because she was saying "You'll help me build that log cabin, the one by the lake, right?" and David could have just gone "Yep." instead of "Uhhhh... what the fuck's a log cabin?"

 

[Zousi]

Ah, log cabin. I must have zoned out at that bit. Thx!