It can't be the "Deacon" unless the creature that infected the Space Jockey was also birthed from a human.
Biology of Parasite x Biology of Host = Biology of Alien
It can be assumed that the Space Jockey was simply infected by a Face Hugger.
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Alien: Covenant |SPOILER THREAD| With more Christian subtext than BvS
- Thread starter Toa TAK
- Start date
It can't be the "Deacon" unless the creature that infected the Space Jockey was also birthed from a human.
Biology of Parasite x Biology of Host = Biology of Alien
It can be assumed that the Space Jockey was simply infected by a Face Hugger.
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
Pissed off feelings aside,
The chestburster scene and music are absolutely magnificient. It's my favorite track on the OST.
It reminds me of the feelings I had about Nightcrawler's OST being gloriously inappropriate in the viewers context, but sensible for the character it relates to. The music fits David's emotions in the moment perfectly.
I loved this scene and music.
The chestburster scene and music are absolutely magnificient. It's my favorite track on the OST.
It reminds me of the feelings I had about Nightcrawler's OST being gloriously inappropriate in the viewers context, but sensible for the character it relates to. The music fits David's emotions in the moment perfectly.
I loved this scene and music.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
The Kurzel soundtrack is pretty damn good, I thought! Listened to it a couple times after the film came out and really dug it. It's like a much improved version of the Isolation soundtrack.
Although I guess Goldsmith doesn't get credited anywhere in the film for his themes getting used?
(or Gregson-Williams, for his Prometheus theme)
Although I guess Goldsmith doesn't get credited anywhere in the film for his themes getting used?
(or Gregson-Williams, for his Prometheus theme)
Fancy Clown
Member
Yup I'm actually listening to it right now, I like it a lot. The eerie dissonant shimmering noise that's used in a lot of the tracks is super creepy. The med bay track has such a good build.
itwasTuesday
He wasn't alone.
It's on google all access, so I will also listen to the sdk now.
Edit: I thought someone was outside banging on something when the drums hit early in The Covenant
Edit: I thought someone was outside banging on something when the drums hit early in The Covenant
brandonh83
Banned
Thought Marc Streitenfeld did this?
Anyway, yeah Covenant had a pretty good soundtrack. I listen to it frequently.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Streitenfeld did the score for Prometheus. The theme was Harry Gregson-Williams, though. He was brought on specifically to polish Streitenfeld's score, I believe.
Actually, now that I think of it, I don't know that Gregson-Williams was credited for Prometheus, either.
Ridley sucks w/ musicians, basically.
Actually, now that I think of it, I don't know that Gregson-Williams was credited for Prometheus, either.
Ridley sucks w/ musicians, basically.
Would we all agree that the Queen in Aliens wouldn't exist until after the colonists visit the ship on LV426, and was birthed from a random human? That this is a Queen influenced by human biology, and that if something would have laid the [original] eggs in the ship, it would have been something very different? (Or Aliens Queen came from the Space Jockey and we've never seen what a Human-born Queen would look like, other than at the end of Alien 3?)
Edit: My buddy is a bit obsessed with the new movie and re-watching Promethius right now, going crazy with theories now that he is remembering bits from that movie again after all these years. And I'll repeat here what I just told him:
It's fun stuff to think about but I suspect the movie makers don't even care about all those details, and they are just slapping things together that look cool. And we are just trying too much to make sense of it.
Edit: My buddy is a bit obsessed with the new movie and re-watching Promethius right now, going crazy with theories now that he is remembering bits from that movie again after all these years. And I'll repeat here what I just told him:
It's fun stuff to think about but I suspect the movie makers don't even care about all those details, and they are just slapping things together that look cool. And we are just trying too much to make sense of it.
I loved this movie
But
I already thought it was off how much more deadly the neomorphs were than the xenonorphs
Wasn't even factoring in how much more easily they reproduce
I think they just fucked up with how easily the xenomorphs were killed without giving them time to do ample destruction
Yet another movie made worse by the fucking arbitrary 2 hour limit placed on movies
But
I already thought it was off how much more deadly the neomorphs were than the xenonorphs
Wasn't even factoring in how much more easily they reproduce
I think they just fucked up with how easily the xenomorphs were killed without giving them time to do ample destruction
Yet another movie made worse by the fucking arbitrary 2 hour limit placed on movies
The music was probably the best aspect of the film. As dumb as the chestburster scene was, the music was perfect.
Williams was going to come back for this as well,but dropped out (creative/schedule) would've been interesting to hear his version of this.
brandonh83
Banned
Controllable? The entire point of the Space Jockey with his chest burst open is to show they're not controllable.
At least the Neomorphs function better as a "kill whatever you target" tool, since they're not dependent on delivering an embryo with a giant conspicuous shootable spider thing.
Also, why does a homicidal android care about how controllable a bioweapon is? He's not at risk himself.
brandonh83
Banned
I like Cargo Lift, basically how you do action music but with horror undertones.
Fancy Clown
Member
I don't think a 2 hour limit had anything to do with the movie's problems, nor do I think it even had a 2 hour limit. Tons of blockbusters are bloated to near the 3 hour mark and are frequently the worse for it. It's not like the xenomorph wasn't shown enough to make it a credible threat, it's how it was shown (and arguably, that it was shown too much).
Definitely would have been neat. The Prometheus theme is amazing, easily the best part of that movie's soundtrack. I was glad to hear it again in this movie, doubly so in David's amazingly weird fourth wall breaking rendition of it.
brandonh83
Banned
I think the neomorphs should have been the thing in this movie. That one kill in the "clean up" room with the fountain was scarier than anything else in the movie by a considerable distance.
I know they just had to call it Alien for obvious reasons therefore they needed to put a xenomorph in, but I think it'd have been cooler if the neomorph came out of the eggs and still having facehuggers would have made it feel like Alien regardless even without xenos.
The neomorphs though, they'd come out of the eggs and David still wouldn't be satisfied with them, and then try again in the next film leading to the xenos.
I know they just had to call it Alien for obvious reasons therefore they needed to put a xenomorph in, but I think it'd have been cooler if the neomorph came out of the eggs and still having facehuggers would have made it feel like Alien regardless even without xenos.
The neomorphs though, they'd come out of the eggs and David still wouldn't be satisfied with them, and then try again in the next film leading to the xenos.
Fancy Clown
Member
I'm not against them putting the alien in the movie, since it's of a piece with the theme of the film and David's arc, I just didn't like the execution. The neomorphs were way more effective.
brandonh83
Banned
I just didn't like how it was pretty much the final boss. There was so much other twisted shit in the movie that when the xeno came out, the familiarity of it and as you said the execution was bad. Ridley failed to make it scary at all and a stupid shower sex scene in the middle of the climax (get it) didn't work in the least bit. It's like okay here's these characters you don't know anything about, and then they find the other girl in the operating room dead-- didn't know who the fuck that was either.
The characterization was such a bummer in this thing.
The xenomorphs are in the movie purely for marketing reasons. They knew the Prometheus brand was damaged and people got very angry when the last "Alien prequel" only had 5 seconds of a sort of-xenomorph at the end. So we got this weird film that's based on the leftovers of Prometheus 2 with a special guest appearance by the xenos at the end. Fox were never going to greenlight another movie without them.
brandonh83
Banned
Just a shame about how it was handled. If it were a lot scar-- I mean, if it were scary, it would have been fine. Instead it's just part of the finale and involved in some over the top antics.
CloudyTuba
Member
I'm trying to rationalize why the Xeno is the ultimate form but it's hard to come up with a good argument when they're so much harder to produce.
Maybe the eggs can survive in much harsher atmospheric conditions than the spore pods can. Possible, since the pods have only been seen in a comfortable earth-like forest while the eggs were sitting in a derelict on a harsh planet.
I suppose the Neomorph hesitated to attack and David felt confident in taming it before it got shot, so perhaps he views that as a weakness. Xenos seem harder to control. Then again, the movie sort of shot itself in the foot for this argument since David seems to be interacting with the baby Xeno once it's born.
Also, did the neomorph have acid blood? I don't remember it having any when Captain shot it up, maybe it did. "You don't dare kill it" is a pretty good selling point for the Xeno.
The xeno also seems to be more durable. It can take hits better than the squishy Neomorph.
Perhaps the Xeno is better at reproducing. Who knows if the Neomorphs are capable of producing more spore pods? It might be up to the pods to grow and spread, and the neomorphs are a dead end. If that were true, then the Xenos being able to create a queen are an advantage.
Most of this is tales from my ass so I guess you just...have to take the insane android's word for it. Would have been helpful to get at least another line on that subject.
You're thinking about this more than Ridley ever did. David calls them the perfect organism because it's a reference to the original movie. It doesn't actually make any sense.
Fancy Clown
Member
Yea the third act xeno and that most of the humans were basically extras are my biggest problems with the movie. I don't even mind the dumb shit as much if the characters doing it feel like actual characters. Like, taking a peek in the egg aside, I thought Oram was a pretty solid character (helped immensely by Billy Crudup). But most of the fun of this move hinges on the early set pieces, atmosphere, and Fassbender x2.
brandonh83
Banned
I sorta felt something with Crudup because he actually had some scenes in the movie and more than passing dialogue. So I thought that was effective. The neomorph kill in the fountain room was effective even though I didn't know that character because it was handled really well, quiet and atmospheric. I guess that's just the kind of thing I expect from these movies instead of all that shit and stuff like the alien killing random neckbeards in the field at night while running around like clowns.
Hell you even got to know Millburn and Fifield in Prometheus before that horror happened to them so even though the circumstance of them being there was incredibly dumb, at least the execution was really good for that scene.
Fancy Clown
Member
That is very likely the impetus for including them, but the way the movie is written I think it makes a good case for including them. David experimenting on a planet trying to make a perfect organism, its missing one ingredient, cue humans arriving so he can finally make his "perfect creation", his very own David. Narratively it doesn't feel like it is shoehorned in, even if the sequences themselves are lazy.
afternoon delight
Member
Et tu, Brandon? :lolI feel the exact opposite as I liked Prometheus but not this one so much.
You're not an idiot, it's just that Alien's strength is its mystery. As hallowed and revered as Cameron's sequel is, even that film degrades the first's perfect unknown. Every following explanation has been a dilution of the initial incredible idea. Basically, you're not stupid- it's just that literally every answer pertaining to the eggs and giant pilot carcass found in the first ship will be totally lame compared to the mystery of never knowing. It's an alien- pure predation without thinking or guidance, focused solely on consuming. Life cycles and origin myths- while interesting and pulpy- are lame compared to its central idea.
This is exactly how me and my wife got so much joy from it. Literally every time a side character separates from the group, laugh em off! Once the killer shows up, there's less than twelve hours remaining for all plot devices.
Honestly there's more Jason movies I enjoy than Aliens movies at this point. Search your heart horror fans- you know it to be true.
Fancy Clown
Member
I can't give the Millburn Fifield stuff a pass, because not only was it dumb but both of them were acting contrary to what little their characters were established as. Like all of a sudden Millburn, who was an extreme coward, is now stupidly brave? And hardass Fifield turns into a stoner? Wat. And the sequence itself has no tension and doesn't build either.
In comparison the neomorph in the grass was pretty good I thought, since it's a chaotic, and pretty well shot, conclusion the med bay where tension had been building so long and the threat was clearly established.
I watched Prometheus in parts while cleaning just before seeing Covenant, but I forgot how the Alien at the very end came to be...
David Infects dude with black liquid in drink > dude has sex with Shaw > Shaw grows the squid and cuts it out > Squid infects Engineer > Engineer births the Alien with nice Teeth
So even that is a very unique mixture. Ridley was just having fun with the reproduction process, which was afterall a major theme of Prometheus.
David Infects dude with black liquid in drink > dude has sex with Shaw > Shaw grows the squid and cuts it out > Squid infects Engineer > Engineer births the Alien with nice Teeth
So even that is a very unique mixture. Ridley was just having fun with the reproduction process, which was afterall a major theme of Prometheus.
brandonh83
Banned
I didn't think those things were against those characters at all. I didn't get any vibe from Fifield that he wasn't a stoner, and when they saw the creature it was weird that Millburn didn't seem afraid of it but he could have been so fascinated by it even being there that the fascination overrode the logic in his approach.
The scene in the field did nothing for me, the deaths weren't creative, just brutal and happening to completely random people.
Mister Wolf
Gold Member
It either kills or produces a mutated parasitic hybrid which in some cases produces a varient type of morph. The neomorph are a result of the goo mutating fungal spores native to that planet. The goo also mutated a native wasp like creature that was already a natural parasite that laid eggs in it victims.
Fancy Clown
Member
Fifield was a dick to Millburn up to that point and was basically shown as cold and stoic, and then even if he was a stoner or whatever, doing it in his helmet after getting lost in alien structure while on a mission is like...so dumb. And I don't buy Millburn being fascinated in the scary creature considering the event that led to that was him being so terrified by non-living aliens that he couldn't do his job and got lost in the first place lol. It's so bad I can't even believe a human wrote it. Like none of those creative choices make any sense to me.
Was this in the movie? I'm trying to recall this but can't think of a reference to it.
brandonh83
Banned
I get what you're saying but I still didn't feel like I knew Fifield enough to where I didn't think any of that made sense, I mean they were stuck in there until morning, why not lol
As far as Millburn, there's also the fact that, again, they're stuck until they can be retrieved and they know that that thing's there with them too, so maybe they were trying to "calm the dog down."
I still get where you're coming from, but I think in bizarre situations like that it's hard to know how anyone would act, especially people we barely know.
Regardless of all that, I still thought it was a more intense and effective scene than the wheat field shenanigans
Mister Wolf
Gold Member
David's varient morph is larger, more durable with an insect like exoskeleton, and probably just as intelligent. I remember in the first Alien how that thing stowed away on Ripley's escape pod without trying to kill her because it knew it needed her to escape. Those facehugger pods probably can last for a long time in a hibernation like state.
Mister Wolf
Gold Member
He showed the captain a wasp like parasite creature native to the planet. It would be natural to assume if that wasp played a part in the creation of David's morph then it's dna would have to have been mixed with that black goo virus. When David showed that wasp the first thing that came to mind was a tarantula hawk.
Fancy Clown
Member
I think that's a pretty weak justification tho, and it's not rooted in their previously (albeit really loosely) defined character traits. Moments before they were terrified and all "let's get out of here" and then when confronted with an even more threatening scenario they're acting like extras in a Seth Rogan movie instead of like...being scared and trying to move to a different location again.
Like Oram following David and peaking in the egg was super dumb, but at least his character had been consistently portrayed as showing poor leadership and being obsessed with having answers for everything.
brandonh83
Banned
I am going to give this movie another go. The bad characterization and handling of certain things that could have made the film so much better are still probably going to leave a bad taste in my mouth, but I'm hoping that a rewatch can make me feel like I was too hard on it initially. I don't think those things will magically get better, but I still liked the story, generally, a few of the characters, a few of the deaths were really effective, and the soundtrack.
Hell I'm not saying it's solid justification, just that maybe them being scared/freaked and even fascinated on top of that led to weird decisions. The movies are kinda about human nature and the mistakes we make when faced with certain things, so I can at least go along with what happened there-- just like Oram idiotically following David into his little fucked up infirmary.
Hell I'm not saying it's solid justification, just that maybe them being scared/freaked and even fascinated on top of that led to weird decisions. The movies are kinda about human nature and the mistakes we make when faced with certain things, so I can at least go along with what happened there-- just like Oram idiotically following David into his little fucked up infirmary.
Sometimes movies get better on a rewatch, I'll say go for it.
afternoon delight
Member
Maybe it's just me but I laughed out loud when David is stabbed with a nail and taunts Daniels with "That's the spirit!" before tossing her. Roy Batty says the same thing to Deckard before fixing his broken arm with an impaled nail.
Yeah I'm sure it's not a reference but it's gotta be a reference haha. Wait a second- maybe Weyland and Tyrell Corps share data- I'm passing out
Yeah I'm sure it's not a reference but it's gotta be a reference haha. Wait a second- maybe Weyland and Tyrell Corps share data- I'm passing out
brandonh83
Banned
It happened to me with The Village and Rogue One off the top of my head. At least the second time you know what to expect and are aware of the flaws before they can take you off guard again. And on the same token, perhaps appreciate the things you did like more and see it from a different perspective after reading a week of discussion and different opinions.
Hopefully I can see it as at least a 6/10 instead of the 4 or so I'd currently give it. And a 6 isn't a bad score to me, but it's not good enough for this series.
Fancy Clown
Member
I'd give Covenant a strong 6 myself, which is the most I've liked any Alien movie since 3 which I'd also give a 6. I still like 3 better though.
brandonh83
Banned
Maybe 4 is too rough for it even, in hindsight. I mean, it's competent, mostly well directed and acted, shot, scored, etc. A 4 is for something like Transformers or worse. My biggest problems with this were the lot of no-name/face characters, ineffective death scenes because of that, the xenomorph not being scary, the climax being pretty shitty all-around, etc. But in spite of all that, it still has a lot going for it.
I'd probably rate it higher if I weren't as big an Alien fan. As a movie compared to like, all other movies it's decent.
Fancy Clown
Member
I just love all the weird shit Ridley put in here, like fourth wall breaking Prometheus flute playing, Fassbender seducing himself, renaissance painting visual homages, etc.
And then it's got some fun set-pieces, looks and sounds nice, and has a really groovy and campy gothic mad scientist vibe that makes it a lot of fun. The weaker aspects are pretty indefensible imo, but I just think it's a really fun big budget B-movie with some fascinating idiosyncrasies that elevate over most of the bigger studio movies.
I've given up any hope that these movies will respect or build upon the first movie in any intelligent way that will enhance the series as a whole, so at least Ridley made this one full tilt insanity that's mostly fun to watch.
And then it's got some fun set-pieces, looks and sounds nice, and has a really groovy and campy gothic mad scientist vibe that makes it a lot of fun. The weaker aspects are pretty indefensible imo, but I just think it's a really fun big budget B-movie with some fascinating idiosyncrasies that elevate over most of the bigger studio movies.
I've given up any hope that these movies will respect or build upon the first movie in any intelligent way that will enhance the series as a whole, so at least Ridley made this one full tilt insanity that's mostly fun to watch.
This is so true, and is really what has been sad about each subsequent Alien film, and why this new chapter in them is so misguided. The power of Alien was, in part, because the crew of the Nostromo peered through a keyhole and got a glimpse into a terrifying corner of the universe they cannot comprehend. In these films the door is flung open and....David is standing there.
I really love the original idea of Alien, filmed but not included, that some of the victims were turned into eggs, as part of the parasitic life cycle. An answer to Lambert's question, "I wonder what happened to the rest of the crew?" can be inferred from the vast egg chamber on the ship.
That means what happens to the Nostromo is an echo of what happened to the derelict alien ship. There, the parasite took over the ship infecting everyone, and the pilot was the last survivor, setting up a warning beacon to keep others away. It tragically had the opposite effect, drawing another crew near so they suffer the same fate. Ripley ejecting the alien from the shuttle at the end thus means both her survival, and the breaking of that cycle of tragedy.
It's just one possible interpretation - maybe the pilot was transporting the eggs for some reason - and it's based on a life cycle cut from the original film. But that's my headcannon for the original film, where we understand what happened - but are still no closer to understanding the alien itself, nor the space jokey or entire race on the derelict. Just that we stumbled into this far corner of the universe we are not at all prepared to understand or handle.
Fancy Clown
Member
I've always loved the idea that the alien turns people into eggs. It's such a disturbing idea, and first with the self sufficient and alien nature of the creature, that I'm surprised none of them have used the idea since.
Tony Redgrave
Member
David expains it to captain Oram.
The goo kills most of the time but depending on the host it might cause a mutation, those mutations tend to create a parasitic being in some circumstances (think the spores or the trilobite/giant facehugger in Prometheus) which incubate a highly agressive hybrid (Neomorph/Deacon).
David says that the goo kills animal life ('meat') but he was able to get his hands in some Neomorphs (either from surviving engineers or, most likely, Shaw) and crossbred it with a wasp/endoparasitary arthropod which had been mutated by the goo and survived (the facehugger). The result is the proto-xenomorph.
I think the biggest mistep was the poor visualization of the Engineers and their ship.
For me, the best part about Alien was the Engineer ship scene, because it was so outlandish and alien. Scott seems to have forgotten about Giger 100%. Everything is visually way too clean and gone is the idea of the Space Jockey being a part of a bio-tech ship in the new movies. Instead we got cookie-cutter humanoids and nothing new and original. It's basically a greatest hits remastered album by Scott with themes from Alien and Bladerunner.
Yesterday by accident I've watched a TNG Star Trek episode which had the same idea as in Prometheus: An old alien race has spread their DNA accross the galaxy. So yes, I can live with the theory that based on this principle Xenomorphs will always be the ultimate outcome of evolution, since the basic DNA material is always the same. This would also explain why the Engineers as some sort of guardians wanted to destroy mankind because they knew about this, and mankind being able to travel in space was too dangerous (Although the invitation thing in P. doesn't make sense then). Doesn't change the fact that both movies are so poor at supporting theories like this.
For me, the best part about Alien was the Engineer ship scene, because it was so outlandish and alien. Scott seems to have forgotten about Giger 100%. Everything is visually way too clean and gone is the idea of the Space Jockey being a part of a bio-tech ship in the new movies. Instead we got cookie-cutter humanoids and nothing new and original. It's basically a greatest hits remastered album by Scott with themes from Alien and Bladerunner.
Yesterday by accident I've watched a TNG Star Trek episode which had the same idea as in Prometheus: An old alien race has spread their DNA accross the galaxy. So yes, I can live with the theory that based on this principle Xenomorphs will always be the ultimate outcome of evolution, since the basic DNA material is always the same. This would also explain why the Engineers as some sort of guardians wanted to destroy mankind because they knew about this, and mankind being able to travel in space was too dangerous (Although the invitation thing in P. doesn't make sense then). Doesn't change the fact that both movies are so poor at supporting theories like this.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Was posted in the thread already, I think it's just promo shit taken from the facebook.
Basically, it's marketing.