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[Jackpot]

Uber blames humans for self-driving car traffic offenses as California orders halt

Regulators ordered Uber to take self-driving cars off roads in San Francisco and company suspends drivers after vehicles were caught running red lights

California regulators ordered Uber to remove its self-driving vehicles from the road on the same day that the company’s vehicles were caught running red lights – violations the company immediately blamed on “human error”.

A video posted by Charles Rotter, an operations manager at Luxor, a traditional cab company, shows one of Uber’s computer-controlled cars plowing through a pedestrian crosswalk in downtown about four seconds after the light turned red. Elsewhere, a photo from a San Francisco writer showed one of the Uber vehicles entering an intersection against a red light.

“People could die,” Rotter said in an interview later. “This is obviously not ready for primetime.”

The traffic violations and threat of legal action are a significant blow to Uber in its home town, where the California department of motor vehicles has said that Uber requires permits to test the technology on its roads.

Despite that stated mandate from a government agency, Uber declared in a blogpost that it did not believe it needed a “testing permit” to launch self-driving vehicles in San Francisco, arguing that the rules don’t apply since the cars have people in them monitoring movements.

"Just passed a 'self-driving' Uber that lurched into the intersection on Van Ness, on a red, nearly hitting my Lyft."

https://twitter.com/AnnieGaus/status/809092604503560192

“The Uber car sort of jutted out into the intersection,” she told the Guardian by phone, noting that she and her Lyft driver were both taken aback. “It was close enough that we were both kind of like, ‘Woah.’ It’s close enough that you kind of react and are sort of rattled.”

An Uber spokesperson said both cars running red lights were not part of the pilot and were not carrying customers.

“These incidents were due to human error. This is why we believe so much in making the roads safer by building self-driving Ubers,” the statement said. “The drivers involved have been suspended while we continue to investigate.”

The company did not immediately respond to questions about the state’s order to remove the cars from the road.

Asked how the San Francisco police department would respond to a self-driving Uber running a red light, officer Giselle Talkoff said: “I don’t even know. I guess we could pull them over.”

A sergeant with the police traffic division said his department was not even aware that Uber had started using autonomous cars in San Francisco.

Rotter argued that the technology company should be held responsible for sending the vehicles out on the road despite government objections.

“What this company has done is start operating illegally and push for permission later.”

Uber gets litigious in response

https://www.theguardian.com/technol...ing-cars-california-illegal-unethical-tactics

Self-driving cars: Uber's open defiance of California shines light on brazen tactics

Intense fight with the state, ignited after cars were caught running red lights, exposed illegal and unethical tactics the company has used for years, critics say

Uber has launched an aggressive battle with California over its controversial self-driving cars, with regulators and consumer advocates accusing the corporation of flagrantly violating the law, endangering public safety and mistreating drivers.

The intense fight with the state – which ignited hours after numerous self-driving cars were caught running red lights in Uber’s home town – has exposed what critics say are the unethical and illegal tactics that the company has repeatedly used to grow its business.

“How many people are they going to kill before they understand they’re not doing the right thing?” said John M Simpson, privacy project director with Consumer Watchdog, a non-profit that has called for Uber to face consequences for side-stepping regulations. “If you’re going to use public highways as your own private laboratory, you’ve got an obligation to follow the rules.”

Uber’s open defiance of California regulators marks the latest case of a “sharing economy” corporation ignoring government under the guise of “disruption” and “innovation”. Uber has long claimed that it is a technology “platform” and not a transportation company and thus does not have to classify its drivers as employees or follow traditional taxicab regulations.

The San Francisco self-driving car scandal centers on Uber’s Volvo XC90s, which can navigate on their own while licensed drivers sit at the wheel and take control when necessary. The company first piloted semi-autonomous vehicles in Pittsburgh in August.

One San Francisco Uber driver, who requested anonymity for fear of retaliation, followed a self-driving car for about 15 minutes on Wednesday and filmed its movements. The footage shows multiple minor violations or potentially dangerous moves, such as failing to fully brake at a stop sign or cutting off a bus.

“It’s a human error, but the vehicle and the technology didn’t compensate,” he said. “The technology itself wasn’t able to avoid running the red light.”

Taborek said publicly admonishing the operators was another example of Uber mistreating drivers. “I would take anything Uber says with massive grains of salt ... I’d be willing to bet good money that the technology is at fault.”

Consumer Watchdog also called for criminal charges against Uber’s CEO Travis Kalanick for violating DMV requirements.

“This is essentially driving without a license,” Simpson said. “It’s really unconscionable.”

If Uber fuck up self-driving cars for us in the pursuit of profit...

edit: Update 22/12/16

DMV revokes registrations of cars in question. Uber kicks its toys out the pram

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=227040942#post227040942

 

[Guevara]

Uber are such assholes, but they know California won't do anything about it.

If I were in charge I'd arrest Uber executives for endangering the public.

 

[The Technomancer]

Man fuck Uber, do not fuck this up for the rest of us

 

[bachikarn]

I don't get why they say it was human error?

 

[Ensirius]

Man fuck Uber, do not fuck this up for the rest of us

If they fuck it up then this will take a lot more time to be implemented.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Uber declared in a blogpost that it did not believe it needed a “testing permit” to launch self-driving vehicles in San Francisco, arguing that the rules don’t apply since the cars have people in them monitoring movements.

Ehm... That sounds like a strange argument.

They say it is all human error. So what exactly is the self driving part supposed to do in these cars then?

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

Guess uber are scared that in the face of their huge losses investment will dry up before their autonomous system is ready for prime time.

I don't get why they say it was human error?

their cars can (and for right now have to I believe) be able to be taken over by a human at the wheel, and I guess that's their contention for these incidents.

 

[Lactose_Intolerant]

I don't get why they say it was human error?

Marketing, they can pass the blame to someone besides the car's computer.

 

[Jackpot]

I don't get why they say it was human error?

I think it's because human drivers were supposed to over-rule wrong decisions. Their legal argument for not getting permits is that the cars aren't technically self-driving, but a sort of AI advisory.

 

[Pagusas]

Ehm... That sounds like a strange argument.

They say it is all human error. So what exactly is the self driving part supposed to do in these cars then?

Currently a human is behind the wheel of every self driving car they have on the road, correct? So how do we know things like that blown red light weren't the human driving the car and not the AI? Not saying Uber isnt assholes, they are, I just want more information about what is doing what right now.

 

[tedrotheredro]

SF isn't exactly a great test bed, even if their silicon valley bros will think "cool" as the car passes by. Put it in a flyover city with huge lanes and no pedestrians.

 

[Vicetrailia]

Well both parties are vying for control. I'm just gonna watch from the sidelines, lol.

Automation is the future obviously.

 

[ahoyhoy]

Guessing the human "drivers" were dozing off or texting while they were supposed to be watching the road.

Even if it was human error, Uber clearly has some accountability problems with its drivers that need to be sorted out.

 

[RecRoulette]

I didn't realize Uber had self-driving cars already on the road. Damn, time moves fast.

 

[Yaboosh]

Uber AI drivers are too realistic to be allowed.

 

[M52B28]

SF isn't exactly a great test bed, even if their silicon valley bros will think "cool" as the car passes by. Put it in a flyover city with huge lanes and no pedestrians.

Exactly. There are too many technicalities to work with on SF roads.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

Get in a mustache state of mind.

 

[rpmurphy]

This is how it begins with the AI system.
Humans were at fault.
Humans are the problem.
Exterminate all humans.

 

[RinsFury]

Uber is rushing this, the tech doesn't seem 100% there yet. Somebody might die because of this.

 

[Horsemama1956]

SF isn't exactly a great test bed, even if their silicon valley bros will think "cool" as the car passes by. Put it in a flyover city with huge lanes and no pedestrians.

Dont you sorta need to test in harder conditions? Only way to see how they work with tight traffic etc is to test them there. They aren't going to learn much in empty, easy to drive streets.

 

[marrec]

SF isn't exactly a great test bed, even if their silicon valley bros will think "cool" as the car passes by. Put it in a flyover city with huge lanes and no pedestrians.

The self-driving Ubers have been tottering along in Pittsburgh for 3 months now.

It's odd, there have been no incidents in Pittsburgh of these Ubers having any errors. I've not rode in one but I've passed by or otherwise seen many of them. Downtown Pittsburgh streets are notorious for being narrow, pedestrian filled, and with multiple hills and one way break-offs and lane changes and various other difficulties that have proven to be challenging for most human drivers, much less an AI.

 

[Skellig Gra]

Man this combined with their financial numbers, this company is toast. They should sell themselves while they can.

SF isn't exactly a great test bed, even if their silicon valley bros will think "cool" as the car passes by. Put it in a flyover city with huge lanes and no pedestrians.

You have to do positive and negative testing. That attitude gets you nowhere in software development.

 

[DOWN]

They are claiming it is human error only because the humans couldn't out-react the computer and stop it from the mistakes?

 

[marrec]

They are claiming it is human error only because the humans couldn't put-react the computer and stop it from the mistakes?

It's possible? Or the humans were driving at the time and made the mistakes. They'd have the proof to show it.

Again, these cars have been all over Pittsburgh roads for 3 months with no errors.

 

[studyguy]

That first gif lol. Didn't even try to stop.
'Fuck your laws, humans. Thug life'

 

[ZackieChan]

Both the Uber spokesman and the Uber driver they interviewed say that a human was driving at the time. The driver interviewed seems to think the AI should take over and stop the human driver from making mistakes, which...seems weird. I'm sure they can produce some kind of data that proves that it was in manual mode during the incidents. Otherwise they are rightly being called assholes. Nonetheless, the usual Uber hate here on GAF will ignore those parts of the articles.

 

[John Kowalski]

Man fuck Uber, do not fuck this up for the rest of us

You want a corporation not to fuck everything up because of their greed?

In America??

 

[Bregor]

Both the Uber spokesman and the Uber driver they interviewed say that a human was driving at the time. The driver interviewed seems to think the AI should take over and stop the human driver from making mistakes, which...seems weird. I'm sure they can produce some kind of data that proves that it was in manual mode during the incidents. Otherwise they are rightly being called assholes. Nonetheless, the usual Uber hate here on GAF will ignore those parts of the articles.

I'm an Uber fan and in favor of autonomous vehicles, but Uber is pushing this too far too fast. They need to slow down and listen to the regulators or something will go wrong, and then their liability will be enormous.

 

[Slurpy2k20]

Doesn't each Uber self driving cars require a driver and 2 fucking engineers or something? If so, what the hell is the point? Seems this will cause more problems than it will solve. And yes, if the car did plow through a red light 4 seconds after it turned red, it is ABSOLUTELY the fault of the driver.

 

[marrec]

Doesn't each Uber self driving cars require a driver and 2 fucking engineers or something? If so, what the hell is the point? Seems this will cause more problems than it will solve. And yes, if the car did plow through a red light 4 seconds after it turned red, it is ABSOLUTELY the fault of the driver.

The point is to start getting self driving cars on the road under safe conditions and with engineers who can take notes about how the car reacts to situations.

Of course, "under safe conditions" is completely dependant on the actual human driver.

 

[jellies_two]

Uber doesn't have to worry Trump has their back and Uber has an in with him, smaller government for the win - the city is just being anti growth.

 

[wetflame]

Uber is pushing forward with this as fast as they possibly can to get driverless cars out there. They're losing billions in their current business model and the only way they're staying afloat is via investors they're telling they are going to corner the autonomous car market. They really don't want to be paying people to drive cars, especially now they have to actually pay them a living wage.

 

[Tom Nook]

Yikes @ GIF.

 

[FairyD]

Say I get hit by one of these self driving cars and it was 100% the self driving car's fault.

Would I be able to sue the programmer of the specific piece of code that failed to react properly?

 

[FreddieQuell]

Am I wrong in reading this as a person was driving in each of these cases? Which means there's no reason to get up in arms about how terrible the self driving software is?

 

[DOWN]

It's possible? Or the humans were driving at the time and made the mistakes. They'd have the proof to show it.

Again, these cars have been all over Pittsburgh roads for 3 months with no errors.

Apparently the human was literally driving and caused the error in this case. I love Uber and the idea of autonomous cars. Saw them driving around Las Vegas this summer and it was so cool.

 

[ZackieChan]

Say I get hit by one of these self driving cars and it was 100% the self driving car's fault.

Would I be able to sue the programmer of the specific piece of code that failed to react properly?

Why would you sue the programmer, when you can sue the company in charge of the car, which most likely has way more money?

I'm an Uber fan and in favor of autonomous vehicles, but Uber is pushing this too far too fast. They need to slow down and listen to the regulators or something will go wrong, and then their liability will be enormous.

What does Google do? I see those cars driving all over Palo Alto.

 

[mashoutposse]

Say I get hit by one of these self driving cars and it was 100% the self driving car's fault.

Would I be able to sue the programmer of the specific piece of code that failed to react properly?

Sue the owner.

 

[CDX]

Is Pittsburgh PA having any similar problems with the self driving Uber cars?

If Pittsburgh isn't, I'm inclined to believe Uber and that it probably is driver error and not the self driving cars.

“It’s a human error, but the vehicle and the technology didn’t compensate,” he said. “The technology itself wasn’t able to avoid running the red light.”

So a human ran red the light.

 

[B-Dubs]

What does Google do? I see those cars driving all over Palo Alto.

Google isn't just doing this all half-assed like Uber is. They have licences and shit for testing these cars.

 

[Bregor]

What does Google do? I see those cars driving all over Palo Alto.

Not ignore the California regulators, unless I have missed a story.

 

[FairyD]

Why would you sue the programmer, when you can sue the company in charge of the car, which most likely has way more money?

Why not both? If I can identify who is ultimately at fault with such a hypothetical accident, why wouldn't I? I would be able to go after the company and the specific person who is responsible for this hypothetical accident.

Which would raise the question, how much responsibility would programmers have? Say someone programs a semi-truck to self drive and that truck somehow crashes into a something killing dozens. Or someone programs a ship, carrying tons of oil, to ship containers across the world and that crashes spilling millions of litres of oil into the ocean. Would the company be at fault? How much responsibility does the programmer, who could have been drunk while writing his code, hold?

 

[Bad_Boy]

"This fare is 15 credits please."

 

[crustikid]

SF city driving is hard mode. Might work in Pitt but SF has a dozens of information to track. There are even times on super busy Van Ness Street when homeless will cross an intersection in the dark of night. It's going to be a bumpy road until they get this right.

 

[God Dayumm]

Why not both? If I can identify who is ultimately at fault with such a hypothetical accident, why wouldn't I? I would be able to go after the company and the specific person who is responsible for this hypothetical accident.

Which would raise the question, how much responsibility would programmers have? Say someone programs a semi-truck to self drive and that truck somehow crashes into a something killing dozens. Or someone programs a ship, carrying tons of oil, to ship containers across the world and that crashes spilling millions of litres of oil into the ocean. Would the company be at fault? How much responsibility does the programmer, who could have been drunk while writing his code, hold?

The vehicles will be insured, so insurance pays. And if they don't, the owner pays. And if the owner thinks if was a defect in the car that caused the accident then they can sue the manufacturer. And if the manufacturer concludes that one of the programmers fucked up then they fire him. Same as it is right now. And if it kills dozens then whatever applies now will apply to autonomous vehicles as well.

 

[ZackieChan]

Google isn't just doing this all half-assed like Uber is. They have licences and shit for testing these cars.

Not ignore the California regulators, unless I have missed a story.

Are we sure about this? They also have people driving with the autonomous vehicles.

Why not both? If I can identify who is ultimately at fault with such a hypothetical accident, why wouldn't I? I would be able to go after the company and the specific person who is responsible for this hypothetical accident.

Which would raise the question, how much responsibility would programmers have? Say someone programs a semi-truck to self drive and that truck somehow crashes into a something killing dozens. Or someone programs a ship, carrying tons of oil, to ship containers across the world and that crashes spilling millions of litres of oil into the ocean. Would the company be at fault? How much responsibility does the programmer, who could have been drunk while writing his code, hold?

Yes, sorry, you would name everyone in the lawsuit. Curious to see who courts pin responsibility on!

 

[marrec]

Is Pittsburgh PA having any similar problems with the self driving Uber cars?

If Pittsburgh isn't, I'm inclined to believe Uber and that it probably is driver error and not the self driving cars.


So a human ran red the light.

No, Pittsburgh hasn't had any problems yet.

 

[Crayon]

This is not surprising at all. I know some of you guys are really hot for self driving cars but there are fundamental issues that noone wants to talk about.

 

[Bregor]

Are we sure about this? They also have people driving with the autonomous vehicles.

Yes

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/vr/autonomous/testing

Edit: Looking at that list is hilarious. Nvidia has bothered to get a license but Uber hasn't.

 

[ZackieChan]

Yes

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/vr/autonomous/testing

Edit: Looking at that list is hilarious. Nvidia has bothered to get a license but Uber hasn't.

Then they are dicks, but the jury is still out on whether a human was driving at the time of these incidents.