-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
AMD Mantle Thread - Time to shake some things up!
- Thread starter KojiKnight
- Start date
Your CPU is pretty good but I think they are still a better choice for the future. I needed to upgrade a failing nvidia card and I switched from Nvidia due to mantle in BF4 alone. The fact that AMD's GCN hardware is in both consoles makes for great odds of Mantle getting supported by all important engines.
Also competition is good.
When you say 'they', do you mean AMD being the better future choice? As interested in Mantle as I am, I had issues with AMD drivers with my last video card. Has AMD gotten better with that?
exmachina64
Banned
They're not terrible, but you miss out on features like the Nvidia control panel.
I'm an AMD user, for reference.
I gotcha. My main disappointment is the price of AMD cards now since the whole explosion of bitcoin mining. ;-; Not feeling like I'll get my bang for the buck
Consoles have their own lightweight and even faster APIs. Mantle is similar to them, but its still only for PC.
fiddled around with mantle a bit yesterday
Core i5 3570k (no OC)
AMD 7850 2gb (no OC)
BF4 everything on ultra (just for this test, I won't play like this in multiplayer, I need my constant 60+ fps)
I only had time to have a look at BF4's built in test range and I have that strange feeling that I'm getting even less fps with mantle than I'm getting with dx11
average frames with DX11 were around ~70 with some dips into the 60s and 50s
average frames with Mantle were around ~60 with some dips even as low as 45
so I guess they were not lying when they announced that both the driver as wells as BF4 still need to be optimized for the 7000 cards so I have to wait a bit
I guess I'll have to buy a 280x anyway as soon as those bitminers have their cards
Core i5 3570k (no OC)
AMD 7850 2gb (no OC)
BF4 everything on ultra (just for this test, I won't play like this in multiplayer, I need my constant 60+ fps)
I only had time to have a look at BF4's built in test range and I have that strange feeling that I'm getting even less fps with mantle than I'm getting with dx11
average frames with DX11 were around ~70 with some dips into the 60s and 50s
average frames with Mantle were around ~60 with some dips even as low as 45
so I guess they were not lying when they announced that both the driver as wells as BF4 still need to be optimized for the 7000 cards so I have to wait a bit
I guess I'll have to buy a 280x anyway as soon as those bitminers have their cards
Dammit, thus is making my next GPU decision hard. Waiting on the 800s and the next line if AMDs because if Mantle gains traction, of course I want it. On the other hand, I'm loving Steam streaming so much and hardware encoding is only supported by Nvidia Kepler and up. If AMD announce some kind of hardware encoding, I'm on board.
Ahhh I see, thank you for the information. The reason I asked was I saw a thread a while ago mentioning the PS4 in some Mantle presentation and I had no idea what it was at the time so didn't take much notice.
OC both CPU and GPU, they've loads of extra power to give. You'll notice the difference for not much extra work. If you're on the stock cooler for your i5 4GHz is probably as high as you'll get.
I just found this, it's pretty interesting.
http://gearnuke.com/dice-mantle-playstation-4-will-drive-frostbite-development-going-forward/
http://gearnuke.com/dice-mantle-playstation-4-will-drive-frostbite-development-going-forward/
Yeah, repi talked about similarities between Mantle and PS4 API at that November dev event.
Dictator93
Member
KojiKnight
Member
Hilarious... totally what I was thinking... That "emulated cross fire with Intel graphics".
Bu bu bu it's only for slow netbook CPUs!Mantle makes my fps jump to around 100 - 110 fps as opposed to 70-80 in direct x this is pretty awesome(at 1080p ultra 4xAA)
specs:
I5 3570k no overclock
8gb DDR3
R9 290
Skyfireblaze
Member
As far as I can tell BF4 still didn't fix the Gamma bug with Mantle right?
As far as I can tell BF4 still didn't fix the Gamma bug with Mantle right?
probably not but I really cant tell once I'm in game.
Outdoor Miner
Member
So the weaker the CPU the bigger the benefit of using Mantle?
Wouldn't that give something like the MSI AMD laptops huge benefits then?
I'm curious to see what the performance increase Mantle provides on an MSI GX70 Destroyer (A10-5750 + R9-M290X). Hope someone benches these soon. Could make those laptops the best sub-$1500 gaming machines by quite a margin.
Wouldn't that give something like the MSI AMD laptops huge benefits then?
I'm curious to see what the performance increase Mantle provides on an MSI GX70 Destroyer (A10-5750 + R9-M290X). Hope someone benches these soon. Could make those laptops the best sub-$1500 gaming machines by quite a margin.
Dictator93
Member
They should be super pushing the open SDK.
Mantle like optimization should become PC standard, but AMDs current strat at that is obviously much more focused on GCN exclusivity.
Hm. It sounds like if Mantle does become a big thing, it wont be for a while still.
I never quite expected wide adoption. Mantle is aimed at deves who care about performance, and not everyone does that.
Skyfireblaze
Member
Lucky you, it's not really the gamma itself that annoys me but rather the lack of color so I'm always debating with myself between color and smoothness
Turin Turambar
Member
So I bought a new computer. Well, almost, I upgraded all the core parts:
I7 4770K
Gigabyte z87-hd3
16 Gb Ram Kingstom Hyperx CL9
Amd 290x (Sapphire model, slightly OC and with 3 fans)
But the mobo is giving me problems, two of the RAM slots are faulty, so I'm returning it. So I returned to my old config, a Q6600@3.1ghz (with a Noctua fan), 4gb ram DDR2, but with the new video card, the 290x.
So I had the opportunity to see the Mantle effects in an outdated but still kicking cpu while I wait for the RMA of the mobo.
In BF4, Mantle gives me a 50% improvement in fps.
DX11.2 (in Win 8.1) : 27 fps on average, 25ish once the skyscraper fell.
Mantle : 40 fps on average
Detail Ultra, msaax4, 1920x1200 res, fov 90.
This is playing 10-15 minutes of Battle of Shangai on each mode, and looking at the fps indicator shown with perfoverlay.drawfps, I didn't output a benchmark log.
I7 4770K
Gigabyte z87-hd3
16 Gb Ram Kingstom Hyperx CL9
Amd 290x (Sapphire model, slightly OC and with 3 fans)
But the mobo is giving me problems, two of the RAM slots are faulty, so I'm returning it. So I returned to my old config, a Q6600@3.1ghz (with a Noctua fan), 4gb ram DDR2, but with the new video card, the 290x.
So I had the opportunity to see the Mantle effects in an outdated but still kicking cpu while I wait for the RMA of the mobo.
In BF4, Mantle gives me a 50% improvement in fps.
DX11.2 (in Win 8.1) : 27 fps on average, 25ish once the skyscraper fell.
Mantle : 40 fps on average
Detail Ultra, msaax4, 1920x1200 res, fov 90.
This is playing 10-15 minutes of Battle of Shangai on each mode, and looking at the fps indicator shown with perfoverlay.drawfps, I didn't output a benchmark log.
Objectively Bad Opinion
Member
The Mantle path in BF4 has extremely poor memory management. From what I understand this is considered not a bug at the moment.
So people with 2GB cards need to set lower texture settings. Or get very poor performance where memory swapping between system and video ram happens.
Monado Blade
Member
Sorry for bumping an old thread.
Is there a list of what AMD cards are compatible? I have a 7870xt which my friend insists isn't Mantle compatible but I could've sworn I read somewhere that it was.
Is there a list of what AMD cards are compatible? I have a 7870xt which my friend insists isn't Mantle compatible but I could've sworn I read somewhere that it was.
All 28nm GCN-based cards are compatible. On the desktop side that means Radeon 7730 and everything stronger than it [including all newly released Radeons in Rx 200 series]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...g_units#Southern_Islands_.28HD_7xxx.29_Series
Your 7870 XT is fully compatibile [although DICE is still not fully supporting all cards in BF4...]
Monado Blade
Member
Thanks for the reply! That's good to hear. Don't really mind BF4 if it doesn't support my card but Thief support would be nice.
It certainly helped a lot for me in Thief, went from average framerate of 49fps in the benchmark to average framerate of 68fps, with everything maxed out. Minimum frame rate rose from 28 to 56 which means I can get away with leaving v-sync on without triple buffering and not have too much slowdown.
neurosisxeno
Member
Mantle benefit lower end CPU's a lot more than higher end ones. Under DX your CPU is most certainly bottlenecking, but under Mantle it theoretically shouldn't.
LeeRoyBrown
Banned
Your card supports Mantle, but no games will use your card for Mantle, not even the 280X can use mantle yet.
It's in Beta and I assume you will be waiting for full release to get support.
Monado Blade
Member
What about the catalyst 14.3 betas that include Thief support? I have that and Thief installed but I can't tell if it's working or not.
Spacecowboy77
Member
My 280x runs Thief with Mantle
Got a nice ~20% boost in fps too according to the in-game benchmark
Got a nice ~20% boost in fps too according to the in-game benchmark
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
It really depends on the game. When I was looking at graphics cards last year, I found a comparison of a dozen or so CPUs checking for bottlenecks with different GPUs in a lot of different games. The test results made it very easy to identify where the CPU would actually bottleneck the GPU. From what I saw, the limit for my CPU was the 7970, and the 270X is more at 7950 level.
Different games press on things differently. Before, Starcraft 2 maxed out would crap out to 25fps or something in cinematics, but now it's a smooth 60fps. My 5850 pretty much couldn't handle DoF, advanced lighting, tessellation, or other hallmarks of DX11. Now with a card that can (yet not at amazing levels) things are pretty good. However, some games like Saint's Row The Third aren't so perfect. Tomb Raider runs fine max everything except tessfx starts bogging things down.
Anyway yeah I think the 955 has a worse rep than it deserves, but getting into real top of the line stuff like Crysis 3, it's going to have trouble. I think my 270X would start having trouble at about the same time, so it isn't such a bad thing. I was just wondering how much Mantle could help out at this level rather than with a 290X and i7.
Monado Blade
Member
I finally noticed a difference when using Mantle in Thief.
...the Steam overlay doesn't work. -_-"
Otherwise, benchmarks give me about the same scores.
...the Steam overlay doesn't work. -_-"
Otherwise, benchmarks give me about the same scores.
flying dutchman
Neo Member
Ok mods, please dont ban me for my question as its something that really frustrates me and i actually want an answer and its not a troll. Ok here goes.
When the PS4 comes out and there are claims that it is twice as efficent as a similar power PC and that you will need a PC rig twice as powerful as the console to get similar results as it is been coded closer to the metal, PC gamers laugh it down, claim BS on it and deny that there any real truth to it. However when AMD release Mantle that shows up to 40% improvement compared to other APIs that have more overheads then PC gamers jump onboard with the hype. Same when the new Direct x comes out with far better results. So why does it count for nothing when consoles come out with low level APIs but when PC does its the second coming?
As someone who doesent understand mhch about graphics tech it gets annoying seeing this.
When the PS4 comes out and there are claims that it is twice as efficent as a similar power PC and that you will need a PC rig twice as powerful as the console to get similar results as it is been coded closer to the metal, PC gamers laugh it down, claim BS on it and deny that there any real truth to it. However when AMD release Mantle that shows up to 40% improvement compared to other APIs that have more overheads then PC gamers jump onboard with the hype. Same when the new Direct x comes out with far better results. So why does it count for nothing when consoles come out with low level APIs but when PC does its the second coming?
As someone who doesent understand mhch about graphics tech it gets annoying seeing this.
I'm not a mod, but a 7970/280X is more than twice as powerful as the GPU in the PS4 by Teraflop measure. There is no "second coming" of whatever you think PC gamers are espousing about. Simply put, upper-mid to high end GPUs are much more powerful than the PS4, even without "coding to the metal."'
The "you need twice the power on PC to reach console" is mostly bunk. Windows and DirectX are probably more efficient now than when Carmack made that comment.
Dutchman> Low latency APIs have always been standard on console, so there's nothing to be amazed at, and console devs can be close to the metal because said metal is the same on all consoles of a given type. You don't get amazed by breathing air when that's what you breathe all the time.
Meanwhile on PC that latency's always been a side effect for the architecture and not being close to the metal is the price you pay for not having to be close to the metal. Being close to the metal on the PC triggers higher costs on the dev side because there are so many metals to be close to and it can easily become unmanageable. In that context being close to the metal is a liability, the console model can't be applied to the PC.
What AMD's bringing to the table is actually a way in which it may be possible. "You may actually be able to breathe air, firebreathers!". So that's interesting, naturally, thus PC games are interested. A path that used to be folly can now be walked.
It's a double edged sword, though, because it's interesting on the surface but if devs still have to maintain several render paths just to be closer to the metal they'll eventually go back to the more generic solution just because they know it'll work everywhere. If being close to the metal is a luxury onl the devs that can afford it will do.
Meanwhile on PC that latency's always been a side effect for the architecture and not being close to the metal is the price you pay for not having to be close to the metal. Being close to the metal on the PC triggers higher costs on the dev side because there are so many metals to be close to and it can easily become unmanageable. In that context being close to the metal is a liability, the console model can't be applied to the PC.
What AMD's bringing to the table is actually a way in which it may be possible. "You may actually be able to breathe air, firebreathers!". So that's interesting, naturally, thus PC games are interested. A path that used to be folly can now be walked.
It's a double edged sword, though, because it's interesting on the surface but if devs still have to maintain several render paths just to be closer to the metal they'll eventually go back to the more generic solution just because they know it'll work everywhere. If being close to the metal is a luxury onl the devs that can afford it will do.
KojiKnight
Member
What I learned from this... DX12 is still way over a year away. Ouch.
Great. That's 10+ games from EA using Frostbite 3, Star Citizen, Civilization Beyond Earth and possibly 30+ additional games. Hopefully Rocksteady, CDPR, Massive and whoever is making engine for AC Unity are on the list.
ashecitism
Member
A recent blog post after which some people started to assume based on the following part that Mantle might be coming to Linux.
I don't see it. In fact I see the opposite. As in DX12 is still far off, Linux has nothing compelling (OGL came under a lot of criticism lately by devs, including a (then) Valve employee), thus gamers should look forward to Mantle (on Windows). Anyone else agree? I mean, surely a linux announcement would have been less vague.
I don't see it. In fact I see the opposite. As in DX12 is still far off, Linux has nothing compelling (OGL came under a lot of criticism lately by devs, including a (then) Valve employee), thus gamers should look forward to Mantle (on Windows). Anyone else agree? I mean, surely a linux announcement would have been less vague.
Denton
Member
Huh ? Maybe they are just not ready yet to fully announce linux version ?
But surely if they want Mantle to take off, it should be in their interest to get it to as many operating systems as possible, and even get other companies to adopt it.
I mean DX12 is nice and all, but being windows only and still almost 2 years away kinda sucks.