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[ScientificPizza]

This.

This statement is strong because it's so easy to disprove if they're lying. One saved email. One downloaded voicemail. One archived text message. That's all anyone needs to completely destroy this statement. The fact that they released it at all should show that they really don't have anything, which isn't to say the abuse didn't take place.

People saying this is a nothing statement aren't really paying attention.

That's a lot to read into from them saying that they never received a formal complaint but go off I guess

Spoiler

it's almost as if posts like this are a perfect example of why this dismissive statement was actually bad and not good

You seem to be purposely misconstruing my point. I'm not dismissing the victim. I'm just not ready to declare Sony or ND guilty of some huge cover up either.

You literally said people make up this stories all of the time

 

[Feorax]

Also choosing to not immediately dismiss a victim coming forward does not make you a terrible person for a jury. Because that's not how juries work. Anyone in this thread saying that to discredit other people for simply displaying empathy are stupid as hell

Correct, but to me, it seems that the person he quoted had already decided that they unequivocally believe one side over the other:

I believe that a person wouldn't make a bold claim to just lie and deceive. I believe something happened and I believe someone did it.

Now THAT does make you a terrible person for a jury, because the whole point is that the prosecution has to convince the jury that either on the balance of probabilities in a civil case, or beyond all reasonable doubt in a criminal case, that the defendant committed the act. If the juror already believes the prosecution's version of events without any evidence, then what's the point?

But as has been stated several times, this is not a matter in a court of law just yet, so the whole argument is moot.

 

[Kinyou]

That's a lot to read into from them saying that they never received a formal complaint but go off I guess

Spoiler

it's almost as if posts like this are a perfect example of why this dismissive statement was actually bad and not good

It's reading into the consequences there would be if ND was lying and he's not wrong about that

 

[ScientificPizza]

It's reading into the consequences there would be if ND was lying and he's not wrong about that

As long as no formal complaint was lodged and still something had happened ND wouldn't be lying. Saying that they received no complaint is *not* saying that nothing happened, though this statement is easily used as a tool by people to try and say just that. That's why it's a terrible statement that shouldn't have been released, because it can easily be used to attack the victim.

 

[Wink]

Thanks for clearing that up. Literally anyone could go on social media and make up that story and have a horde of people's support on principle without any evidence. Not saying it didn't happen, but that it just happens that no records support the claims is reason enough for me to not side with anyone.
Sheer depression from being out of work for a long time can make people desperate and in these weird ass times a shitton of us have psychological problems to boot.
If you ever get in an unjustifiable situation at your workplace, you have to gather evidence to protect yourself. Write complaints down to make them official, keep copies of whom you sent them to (email bc). Gather allies, make records. Be smart about it. Don't expect the world to believe you on pure empathy.

 

[Feorax]

As long as no formal complaint was lodged and still something had happened ND wouldn't be lying. Saying that they received no complaint is *not* saying that nothing happened, though this statement is easily used as a tool by people to try and say just that. That's why it's a terrible statement that shouldn't have been released, because it can easily be used to attack the victim.

What would you have said differently?

 

[Vitten]

He (presumably) didn't lodge any official complaint, that's one of the the issues here...

In that case you can't reproach ND or Sony anything at all
.
HR can't possibly know what's going with each and every employee if the employee doesn't come forward.

 

[ScientificPizza]

If you ever get in an unjustifiable situation at your workplace, you have to gather evidence to protect yourself. Write complaints down to make them official, keep copies of whom you sent them to (email bc). Gather allies, make records. Be smart about it. Don't expect the world to believe you on pure empathy.

Spoken like someone who has a firm grasp on how it feels to be a victim. Because after I've been abused the first thing I want to do is relive the experience by meticulously documenting my trauma.

What would you have said differently?

We have recently read on social media that an ex-employee of Naughty Dog, Harassment and inappropriate conduct have no place at Naughty Dog and Sony Interactive Entertainment. We have taken and always will take reports of sexual harassment and other workplace grievances very seriously. We value every single person who works at Naughty Dog and Sony interactive Entertainment. It is of utmost importance to us that we maintain a safe, productive workplace environment that allows us all to channel our shared passion for making games.

And then maybe do an actual investigation instead of just skimming HR records.

 

[FlutterPuffs]

Spoken like someone who has a firm grasp on how it feels to be a victim. Because after I've been abused the first thing I want to do is relive the experience by meticulously documenting my trauma.





And then maybe do an actual investigation instead of just skimming HR records.

How do you know they just skimmed HR records?

 

[Thorrgal]

In that case you can't reproach ND or Sony anything at all
.
HR can't possibly know what's going with each and every employee if the employee doesn't come forward.

I agree.

But maybe he did complaint by phone to someone at HR and that someone decided to ignore the claim.

But I have to say it looks, mmm, I dunno...let's say that is not likely to happen at my company (150k employees, french but multinational)

 

[ShemhazaiX]

Spoken like someone who has a firm grasp on how it feels to be a victim. Because after I've been abused the first thing I want to do is relive the experience by meticulously documenting my trauma.

Here's the thing, whilst it's a horrible thing to have to think about, your option is do that or do nothing. There is absolutely nothing anyone can do without evidence, and there are very good reasons for that. Does it mean people get away with shit? Yes. But I'd rather live in a society where innocent people weren't at risk of having their lived ruined by hearsay.

 

[Feorax]

And then maybe do an actual investigation instead of just skimming HR records.

So a full investigation, if Nd genuinely have no record of this, will probably mean the higher ups pulling in everyone that the victim has has worked with and getting full statements from them. Having their interactions with the victim questioned and revisited in minute detail. Again, with nothing to go off, that could well be a lot of people.

This will also likely be people who maybe suffer from anxiety, stress, depression or low self esteem, who will already be thinking "...shit, was it when I said this to the guy? Is that what he means?" Probably thinking about perfectly reasonable things, but through no fault of their own, their mind has made it seem to them that they could be at fault for all of this. Now they're being pulled in front of someone senior and interviewed about it.

Can you imagine how much damage that could cause to not only the workforce morale, but also a number of individuals working at ND? The last thing you would ever want as an employer is to have your employees looking at each other thinking "was it you?", and that's unfortunately going to be the case if/when an investigation happens.

As the head of a company, if you've found no record of it being reported, how can you possibly sign off on that course of action?

 

[mckmas8808]

Why would Ballard lie? And why would another claim they were also harassed at ND?


I choose to always trust the victim in cases like this, in which is one's word against another's.. Let's wait and see if either side comes with actual hard proof.

Trusting the victim is okay, but what should ND do at this moment if they are finding out about this for the first time?

 

[RustyNails]

Well you cant have a record if HR didnt make one.

 

[BlitzBlake]

Thanks for clearing that up. Literally anyone could go on social media and make up that story and have a horde of people's support on principle without any evidence. Not saying it didn't happen, but that it just happens that no records support the claims is reason enough for me to not side with anyone.
Sheer depression from being out of work for a long time can make people desperate and in these weird ass times a shitton of us have psychological problems to boot.
If you ever get in an unjustifiable situation at your workplace, you have to gather evidence to protect yourself. Write complaints down to make them official, keep copies of whom you sent them to (email bc). Gather allies, make records. Be smart about it. Don't expect the world to believe you on pure empathy.

i love how people who have never had something horrible like this happen to them, suddenly become experts on what to do.

 

[mrk8885]

That's a lot to read into from them saying that they never received a formal complaint but go off I guess

Spoiler

it's almost as if posts like this are a perfect example of why this dismissive statement was actually bad and not good

You literally said people make up this stories all of the time

Saying you hear stories “all the time” about allegations that end up being fabricated is NOT the same as saying all allegations are fabricated.

My whole point posting frequently on this thread is that NO ONE here has enough info to have a strong opinion either way. I didn’t say he made up the allegation. I didn’t say he’s a liar or untrustworthy. I’ve said many times this could very well be true and Sony and ND should be taken to task if they truly covered something up.

I’m just not as quick—as some of you apparently are—to declare a huge conspiracy of wrongdoing quite yet.

 

[RichiRamjag]

Spoken like someone who has a firm grasp on how it feels to be a victim. Because after I've been abused the first thing I want to do is relive the experience by meticulously documenting my trauma.





And then maybe do an actual investigation instead of just skimming HR records.

Then you can do nothing and nothing will happen. It’s honestly good advice for anything dealing with HR. I’ve dealt with HR for a major complaint with an old sup and handled in that way to great effect.

 

[jacobeid]

Danika Harrod's twitter feed made me realize what a shitty response this is, even IF (I am inclined to believe the accuser) all of the accusations are false. It's just a completely shitty statement.

 

[IAmAnAgnostic]

..So the guy supposedly randomly decided to make up a sexual assault claim and let it cost him his livelihood and mental health? I don't buy it.

 

[BlitzBlake]

Saying you hear stories “all the time” about allegations that end up being fabricated is NOT the same as saying all allegations are fabricated.

My whole point posting frequently on this thread is that NO ONE here has enough info to have a strong opinion either way. I didn’t say he made up the allegation. I didn’t say he’s a liar or untrustworthy. I’ve said many times this could very well be true and Sony and ND should be taken to task if they truly covered something up.

I’m just not as quick—as some of you apparently are—to declare a huge conspiracy of wrongdoing quite yet.

It's two massive corporations vs one guy... who do you think needs all the support they can get?

 

[Alo0oy]

What a non-statement. The least they could do is not dismiss the allegations! They should investigate the HR person that covered it up instead of completely dismissing it.

 

[Marcel]

The people saying he should have made a paper trail, collected evidence, etc. don't seem to empathize with the fact that the guy was apparently mentally unstable as a result of the harassment and clearly was not in any state to make logical, clearheaded decisions. We all have the benefit as onlookers to second guess in a removed state, it's another to be stuck in the swamp of this situation and make bad calls as a result.

 

[Feorax]

What a non-statement. The least they could do is not dismiss the allegations! They should investigate the HR person that covered it up instead of completely dismissing it.

1. Show me where they said the allegations weren't true.

2. Prove definitively that it was covered up.

3. Explain how you would investigate at this stage without throwing your workforce under a bus (see my post above if you don't get what I mean.)

The people saying he should have made a paper trail, collected evidence, etc. don't seem to empathize with the fact that the guy was apparently mentally unstable as a result of the harassment and clearly was not in any state to make logical, clearheaded decisions. We all have the benefit as onlookers to second guess in a removed state, it's another to be stuck in the swamp of this situation and make bad calls as a result.

I absolutely sympathise with this. the timing of his statement suggests to me he really didn't expect anything to come of it, but it was just that given the current topical issue, he felt it was the right time to speak out, and for that he should be applauded. No one should ever suffer in silence about something like this.

If I'm wrong, and he expected this to go further, then this comes off as a bit of a Hail Mary and a missed opportunity.

 

[FlutterPuffs]

Danika Harrod's twitter feed made me realize what a shitty response this is, even IF (I am inclined to believe the accuser) all of the accusations are false. It's just a completely shitty statement.

I disagree with her.

I prefer statements to be frank, and to the point.

 

[semiconscious]

Saying you hear stories “all the time” about allegations that end up being fabricated is NOT the same as saying all allegations are fabricated.

My whole point posting frequently on this thread is that NO ONE here has enough info to have a strong opinion either way. I didn’t say he made up the allegation. I didn’t say he’s a liar or untrustworthy. I’ve said many times this could very well be true and Sony and ND should be taken to task if they truly covered something up.

I’m just not as quick—as some of you apparently are—to declare a huge conspiracy of wrongdoing quite yet.

it's become pretty obvious that there're a number of people up here who themselves have never been accused of doing something they didn't do, & found themselves having to defend themselves against such accusations. because, once that's happened to you, you never see the world in quite the same simplistic, black'n'white way again...

 

[Thorrgal]

The people saying he should have made a paper trail, collected evidence, etc. don't seem to empathize with the fact that the guy was apparently mentally unstable as a result of the harassment and clearly was not in any state to make logical, clearheaded decisions. We all have the benefit as onlookers to second guess in a removed state, it's another to be stuck in the swamp of this situation and make bad calls as a result.

You don't need anything like that, you just need to make a formal complaint through the proper channels and the trail would be there.

 

[RichiRamjag]

You don't need anything like that, you just need to make a formal complaint through the proper channels and the trail would be there.

Pretty much. You make a complaint and ask for copies of submitted complaints. I’m not judging anyone, but if you don’t, then it may bite ya in the rear at another time.

 

[Marcel]

You don't need anything like that, you just need to make a formal complaint through the proper channels and the trail would be there.

It's been run down many times that the accuser likely did not lodge a formal complaint until his employment status with the company was already a lost cause as a result of his mental state. He had what he implies to be a public mental breakdown.

 

[Silent Chief]

Proving or disproving harrassment is something that is really hard, because most of the time, there just isn't any evidence.

Proving or disproving complaints of harassment should be easy enough.
They must have procedures in place.
This basically asks the complainer to specify whom he complained to.

 

[The_Lump]

It is of utmost importance to us that we maintain a safe, productive workplace environment that allows us all to channel our shared passion for making games

This is such a myopic corporate response. "We would never sexually harrass our employees because we want to keep them productive" is just about the worst way you can try and contest your innocence in this scenario.

 

[Alo0oy]

1. Show me where they said the allegations weren't true.

2. Prove definitively that it was covered up.

3. Explain how you would investigate at this stage without throwing your workforce under a bus (see my post above if you don't get what I mean.)

I never said they stated the allegations weren't true, only that they dismissed them.

They can easily check phone records and see which HR person was on the phone with him the day before his firing, that wouldn't be throwing people under the bus, that's proper investigation.

 

[uomoartificiale]

I think most of us are wrestling with the two opposing facts that a person doesn't come out publicly with a story like that if it wasn't true and , on the other side, a big corporation like Sony does not release a statement like this (instead of just saying we're looking into it) if they are not sure of being safe.
I think giving credit to a possible victim is always the right choice to do in cases like this. But that Sony statement sure is weird.

 

[jacobeid]

I disagree with her.

I prefer statements to be frank, and to the point.

This is stolen from someone on her feed, but it's concise, to the point, and doesn't just dismiss everything.

1. we are aware of claims by an ex employee (no name)
2. We are reaching out to them
3. We will post updates as appropriate
4. General statement about why sexual harassment is bad
5. Media inquiry link

Easy. Done.

 

[big_erk]

What a non-statement. The least they could do is not dismiss the allegations! They should investigate the HR person that covered it up instead of completely dismissing it.

Which HR person is that? Investigate what exactly? The problem is apparently there is no record of any report being made. If that is the case, unfortunately the onus falls on the reporter to prove that one was made. I have never filed an abuse claim, but I have dealt with discrimination claims and the first thing you do is put everything in writing. Why? So that if there is ever any question about when something was reported or what was said the record is there. You sign that statement and turn it in. They are obliged to accept the statement and should sign for it. If they refuse that there are agencies to take your grievance to.

What it boils down to is if there is no hard record of the complaint being filed, there is not much the company can do. If he provided the name of the person he spoke to, they will interview them. Do we even know if he told them who he spoke to?

Edit- There may also be some history at play here. We know nothing about his time with the company, his conduct or his interpersonal relations while there. There could be valid reasons why they seem to dismiss his claims. Reasons that they can't legally divulge to the public. All the more reason to withhold judgement on any side until this all plays out.

 

[Feorax]

I never said they stated the allegations weren't true, only that they dismissed them.

They can easily check phone records and see which HR person was on the phone with him the day before his firing, that wouldn't be throwing people under the bus, that's proper investigation.

If you're dismissing allegations you're saying there is nothing in them, meaning you believe them to be false.

As far as the HR employee goes, what if they don't remember the exact details of the call that took place? What if they don't work for the company anymore? What if David believes that he made clear that he felt he had been assaulted, but that in his state at the time the other person simply did not get that impression from him? What if this has already been followed up and the result is exactly what we already have? do you know for certain that the haven't asked the question and just not found anything?

This is stolen from someone on her feed, but it's concise, to the point, and doesn't just dismiss everything.

1. we are aware of claims by an ex employee (no name)
2. We are reaching out to them
3. We will post updates as appropriate
4. General statement about why sexual harassment is bad
5. Media inquiry link

Easy. Done.

Anther person absolutely determined to prejudice any potential future investigation. Crazy that people think this is a good idea, absolutely crazy.

 

[Audioboxer]

Did some people not even read the statement with some of these posts that they didn't condemn the allegations?

We have recently read on social media that an ex-employee of Naughty Dog, Dave Ballard, claims he was sexually harassed when he worked at Naughty Dog. We have not found any evidence of having received allegations from Mr. Ballard that he was harassed in any way at Naughty Dog or Sony Interactive Entertainment. Harassment and inappropriate conduct have no place at Naughty Dog and Sony Interactive Entertainment. We have taken and always will take reports of sexual harassment and other workplace grievances very seriously. We value every single person who works at Naughty Dog and Sony interactive Entertainment. It is of utmost importance to us that we maintain a safe, productive workplace environment that allows us all to channel our shared passion for making games.

This is a legal matter, they're not responding like an everyday person on a forum. The response is both parts factual/evidence-based and also part opinion based (their views on harassment). That is the way an official response is going to be at this stage until further investigations/evidence come to light.

I've skimmed some pages of the topic and it seems like some people were disappointed it wasn't a firing range of sackings and police involvement at ND within 48 hours. It's definitely a cover-up/conspiracy posts as well. Matters like this will always be taken seriously and factually, not based upon emotions and (outsider) belief. I wish Dave Ballard all the best if what he's saying is true and justice is served, but playing internet court goes wrong from time to time. Dave should be with a lawyer right now discovering his options to move forward. Sony and ND have made their legal/primary investigatory response, and as much as Dave may well be a victim, it is back in his court right now to seek legal aid and how to proceed with the allegations he levied.

 

[Alo0oy]

Which HR person is that? Investigate what exactly? The problem is apparently there is no record of any report being made. If that is the case, unfortunately the onus falls on the reporter to prove that one was made. I have never filed an abuse claim, but I have dealt with discrimination claims and the first thing you do is put everything in writing. Why? So that if there is ever any question about when something was reported or what was said the record is there. You sign that statement and turn it in. They are obliged to accept the statement and should sign for it. If they refuse that there are agencies to take your grievance to.

What it boils down to is if there is no hard record of the complaint being filed, there is not much the company can do. If he provided the name of the person he spoke to, they will interview them. Do we even know if he told them who he spoke to?

If there is no record, then it's even more obvious that someone from HR covered it up, why would anyone make up claims of sexual harassment for no reason?

I'm inclined to believe the victim, and if ND found no complaint was "officially" filed, then they should investigate the cover up.

 

[Alo0oy]

If you're dismissing allegations you're saying there is nothing in them, meaning you believe them to be false.

As far as the HR employee goes, what if they don't remember the exact details of the call that took place? What if they don't work for the company anymore? What if David believes that he made clear that he felt he had been assaulted, but that in his state at the time the other person simply did not get that impression from him? What if this has already been followed up and the result is exactly what we already have? do you know for certain that the haven't asked the question and just not found anything?

They can find all that out during the investigation. They dismissed the sexual harassment allegations, but part of the allegations is the cover up, and they did not touch on that one bit.

If they found nothing on file, then that gives more credance to the cover up story.

 

[KORNdoggy]

If there is no record, then it's even more obvious that someone from HR covered it up, why would anyone make up claims of sexual harassment for no reason?

there are lots of reasons. we've seen people do it with celebrities. money being one. the guy was out of work for 17 months in an economy that is currently taking a shit. not saying this is what the guy is doing, but i'm not going to pretend there aren't reasons to lie about this sort of thing.

 

[Feorax]

If there is no record, then it's even more obvious that someone from HR covered it up, why would anyone make up claims of sexual harassment for no reason?

I'm inclined to believe the victim, and if ND found no complaint was "officially" filed, then they should investigate the cover up.

They can find all that out during the investigation. They dismissed the sexual harassment allegations, but part of the allegations is the cover up, and they did not touch on that one bit.

If they found nothing on file, then that gives more credance to the cover up story.

If they found no evidence of a cover up, why would they investigate for one?

I'm going to repeat this again, because people just don't seem to be getting this;

THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ALWAYS ON THE PROSECUTION.

There is absolutely no reason for ND or Sony to go and start digging to find evidence of wrongdoing when the accuser has not presented any real evidence of there being any, other than their own testimony. Unless David can produce other corroborating witnesses and accounts that back up there being a cover up, there is no reason for ND or Sony not to take their own records at face value.

 

[big_erk]

If there is no record, then it's even more obvious that someone from HR covered it up, why would anyone make up claims of sexual harassment for no reason?

I'm inclined to believe the victim, and if ND found no complaint was "officially" filed, then they should investigate the cover up.

Like I said, I've dealt with discrimination claims. If you get nowhere with your companies HR department you move up the chain. The agencies I mentioned have nothing to do with the company. The EEOC is a goverment agency that handles these complaints in the U.S. and reporting to them is your best bet if company HR ignores your report.

 

[Brotherhood93]

The issue Naughty Dog have is that Ballard no longer works there, they have every right to defend themselves against allegations like this. We know it's been investigated by journalists and the truth will likely come out. Naughty Dog/Sony will look really bad if they aren't telling the truth but, for now, their statement carries as much weight as Ballard's allegations. You can't criticise their statement on the presumption of guilt and I don't think it in any way dismisses the seriousness of the allegations.

 

[Rellik]

there are lots of reasons. we've seen people do it with celebrities. money being one. the guy was out of work for 17 months in an economy that is currently taking a shit. not saying this is what the guy is doing, but i'm not going to pretend there aren't reasons to lie about this sort of thing.

I've yet to see one in this particular occasion (the example you provided is laughable) and it's people accusing men/women of lying that makes it so hard to come out and admit this happened to them, so can people shut up about lying because I see no reason for him to lie in this situation.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Spoken like someone who has a firm grasp on how it feels to be a victim. Because after I've been abused the first thing I want to do is relive the experience by meticulously documenting my trauma.





And then maybe do an actual investigation instead of just skimming HR records.

Skimming HR records *is* an actual investigation from a company perspective. What are they going to do, interrogate every employee one on one hoping that someone incriminates themselves or drops a dime on a co-worker? HR is not the SM Police Department.
Unless something is dropped in their lap, they cannot act or accuse random employees of wrongdoing; that would be a different form of workplace harassment. The statement they released from a legal perspective is important, as the accuser made a claim that he lodged an official complaint with HR. In my state at least, documented inappropriate behavior that is escalated to or involved with the managerial level exposes the entire company to litigation if it is not dealt with properly by HR (or if it results in retaliation).

Unfortunately, unless victims come forward with specific details, these kinds of things are very hard to prove. And unless he has an email or phone recording saying things happened like he said (Sony HR dropping the call intentionally to avoid discussion, the timing of the firing, the written offer of $20k severance), Sony is smart to openly state that none of those things exist.

 

[Marcel]

It's weird that other notable sexual assault cases get benefit of the doubt but when it is a fan favorite studio all the male apologists go to the mattresses for Naughty Dog.

 

[mrk8885]

I've yet to see one in this particular occasion (the example you provided is laughable) and it's people accusing men/women of lying that makes it so hard to come out and admit this happened to them, so can people shut up about lying because I see no reason for him to lie in this situation.

But once again, to be clear, no one here is overtly calling him a liar. We’re just trying to be reasonable and wait for more information before we decide a more appropriate response.


No one is “going to the mattresses” over this just because they like ND as the post above me suggests. There’s nothing wrong with a wait and see approach. I’m not going to condemn an entire company over a tweet allegation.

 

[Feorax]

It's weird that other notable sexual assault cases get benefit of the doubt but when it is a fan favorite studio all the male apologists go to the mattresses for Naughty Dog.

You're right. Who needs courts or investigations or right to have your side heard?

Let's just go with Marcels idea that anyone accused of harassment is guilty unless overwhelmingly proven innocent.

 

[CannonFodder52]

But once again, to be clear, no one here is overtly calling him a liar. We’re just trying to be reasonable and wait for more information before we decide a mkte appropriate response.

There are a lot of people either strongly trying to cast doubt on his claim or outright disbelieving him.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

It's weird that other notable sexual assault cases get benefit of the doubt but when it is a fan favorite studio all the male apologists go to the mattresses for Naughty Dog.

Note that no one really did anything about Rose McGowan's subliminal tweets from 2016 until Harvey Weinstein got name dropped by dozens of other women this fall.

You can't take swings at a ghost.

 

[Thorrgal]

It's weird that other notable sexual assault cases get benefit of the doubt but when it is a fan favorite studio all the male apologists go to the mattresses for Naughty Dog.

Male apologists of what?