///PATRIOT
Banned
Do you think God or Universe must take care of you?
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Anti-work subreddit goes private after disastrous Fox News interview
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
People have limited time and limited energy. For starters it is said there are millions of americans with IQ too low to work anything but low skill jobs. I'm sorry but what is the alternative, either they earn enough to live like a decent human being, or they have to live potentially in abject poverty.
It is nice for society to foster abject poverty and to have tons of work done for it at abject poverty wages. That is called exploitation. Without such work society could probably not exist, but rather than pay what is due for necessary labor it exploits the workers.
///PATRIOT
Banned
You seem to argue that people should be paid for whatever they do on the based on "the right thing", emotional appealing or some sort of entitlement to the society without addressing the realities of the dynamics between offer and demand.
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Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
That is very nice, society fosters women enter the workforce essentially doubling the workforce, also fosters illegal immigration, and moves a ton of jobs to the slave labor third world countries, and we are supposed to tolerate the exploitation from wages not keeping up? When a few decades ago low skill labor was sufficient for a single income family to afford a house, vacation, car, health care.
The elite shouldn't be able to exploit the majority of the population. And that is what is happening.
///PATRIOT
Banned
Can you stop spouting Marxist twitter and address the relation between offer and demand and wages??
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
increased workforce means more supply which puts workers at a bad negotiation point. By vastly increasing the work force the elite can exploit not just native citizens but also those from other countries, while paying them below living wages and extracting all the profits.
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Nester99
Member
What sub Reddit do you mod?
QSD
Member
The other guy was arguing that coffee makers and assembly workers should earn the same. J Joshmyersbv says look at these terrifying working conditions of the assembly workers! That's why they earn more. Hence my point that by that logic, they should earn more than their management.
... and that sounds like a bad thing to you?
I get the impression that a lot of what determines what a job pays is basically just 'what such a job has traditionally paid' , which is something else than supply and demand.
This is why this 'great resignation' is causing a bunch of consternation, there's jobs that can't be filled because they simply pay to little to attract enough employees period.
Woopah
Member
The Universe doesn't have to do anything, but societies should take care of us each other.
InfiniteCombo
Banned
This current conversation is perfect, because it goes back to one of the points brought up in the very interview that we're talking about here -- and the interviewee failed to address appropriately. The interviewer said something along the lines of, "but it's not forced labor. You've applied for the job, and have agreed to the terms of employment..." I italicized that last part because "the terms of employment" include... the pay. If people don't like the pay, then they shouldn't take the job, period. If a company is, per the economy and the market, underpaying prospective employees to the point of not getting enough people willing to work, then the employer is going to reassess what they're paying their employees. Now this might be dangerously close to a libertarian take (and I would agree that capital-L Libertarians live in a somewhat impractical fairy land), and this is where caveats come in. For one, unskilled workers earning relatively low wages already get a boost during tax season. On top of that, programs like Medicaid do give help to the poor, a help that middle class and affluent Americans do NOT get. Beyond that, many cities have low income housing that... Well, it's in the name. So those (and others) are ways in which the government is already helping. I'm a proponent of these ways of helping without disruptively/adversely interfering with the overall market economy.
By the way, some recent posts (that are purely emotional and completely devoid of any logic of societal and economic realities... I swear if I see the word "exploitation" one more fucking time
...) are all being typed from computers and/or smart phones that are a product of exponentially worse work conditions in developing countries than the alleged employment injustices going on here in the United States.
By the way, some recent posts (that are purely emotional and completely devoid of any logic of societal and economic realities... I swear if I see the word "exploitation" one more fucking time
...) are all being typed from computers and/or smart phones that are a product of exponentially worse work conditions in developing countries than the alleged employment injustices going on here in the United States.
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InfiniteCombo
Banned
It's like the people in the early 2000's... Screaming emotional, impractical ideas at the top of their lungs, all while listening to their expensive, trendy iPods and wearing their overpriced Che Guevara tshirts.
Documenting the sheer levels of irony in that scenario would take several volumes of writing
Anyway, back to the main topic...
Documenting the sheer levels of irony in that scenario would take several volumes of writing
Anyway, back to the main topic...
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StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
I have never ever seen someone even define what a living wage should get. And how low of a job it should even go. I don't know how many jobs out there are lower than paperboy, but thats got to be among the lowest as a bottom rung benchmark.
Lots of idealism for "gimme gimme gimme", but never an answer stating what "they deserve as a minimum living wage standard".
It's obvious entitled workers think the government's minimum wage isn't good enough, and by the looks of it the "$15/hr" stake in the ground from years ago isn't enough either (which many of us predicted it wouldn't be and they'd come for more later).
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Joshmyersbv
Member
Our management spends most if not all their time controlling what comes in and out of the plant. I get to go home and see my kids at a decent hour. Most of our management pull doubles to work off line maintenance or spend time calling suppliers to get chips so we can run cars.
We're a Japanese run company, so trust me our management earns their fucking money. They don't get stand around with their thumbs up their ass, they work. Who do you think gets on a line when we're short handed? Management. Hell the reason I'm at work today is because management (who is 80% Japanese mind you) was able to get parts in for us to run).
When I talk about loss I speck in terms of cars that could have been made in that time. I don't know how it works but when I started they told us down time results in $60,000 loss. I'm pretty sure that goes for every major automotive company.
As much as I would agree a robots would do much better. We have had robots shutdown and take hours to fix so idk what she was doing and if a robot could do it.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Yup.
Last line of defence is management - not front line workers. No different when there's strikes, lockouts or the employee pool wants to be assholes and coordinate 20% call ins being sick. At some point management rolls up their sleeves and tries to keep the business going if shit hits the fan. On salary, no OT pay, and will always do their best to try to set some kind of example. And you'll never see management pull any bullshit like "I'm not doing that, it's not in my job description".
It's like giant snow days. Even though everyone will have freedom to work from home if they got a laptop, there will always be 1 or 2 directors or VPs who slog it in. And the reason for that is because they know there's chance some subordinates who live close to work will come in, so they want to ensure someone in management is there in case you have an issue as well as set the tone for the day (make the call for anyone showing up to go home at noon if the snow day gets worse).
Subordinates dont understand the responsibilities of a manager.
And it goes beyond just ensuring work is done. Half the battle is ensuring numbnuts dont bring their personal life baggage to work. And if they do, you now got to go into babysitting mode and smooth it out so Sally isn't crying at her desk half the day. Or behind the scenes Homer and Moe are pissing each other off like immature losers and you got to get involved with HR to fix it.
You'd think a manager would just focus on work, since adults "should" be able to behave themselves, but the boss has to get involved sometimes to solve their life issues for them.
Even for work related issues, the whole process of hiring and firing people is a pain in the ass. The typical anti-corporate worker thinks any boss firing an employee is hilarious as if every boss is Mr. Burns giggling in a corner office at workers. I've never worked with any manager who has power to fire an employee smile and laugh it up they got rid of someone. It's ranged from pain in the ass disgust for a shitty worker with attitude, to tearing up because CEO made the call to cut workers and the VPs (which trickle down to directors and managers) have to propose who to cut even if they dont want to fire anyone.
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Dr Bass
Member
I have an all new respect for you, good sir (or ma’am).
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
The best example I have isn't even from personal experience, it's from my brother during a family dinner years back when he was a new manager at a production plant.
I wasnt a manager yet, and he's older so we'd chat about jobs. No doubt he's older with more experience so he's on another level. But even though we do totally different jobs and companies of course we still chat about jobs.
So back then he's telling me he's got like 20 people to manage on production lines making shit. And I have a business background and maybe 5 years into my career where I'm an analyst.
So here we are chatting about his job, and I'm thinking the most stressful pain in the ass part of the job would be.... maybe making sure the line doesn't break down, there's zero products and everyone is standing around? I worked in a plant making cheap shit during university and the biggest issue I had was fucking up the machines as a summer student. And there were times these archaic machines would overheat which meant we all turned it off and let it cool down for a few hours while one of the vets checked every machine. And then James (the bald plant manager who stayed in his office all day) would come around yelling whats going on and all we could say is the machines are overheating.
Sounds reasonable right? That's a very production based view.
Turns out it's not the production line that is the biggest issue he's worried about. It's handling all these grey haired vets who have been working there for 20 years all snipping at each other like they own the place. And to top it off he has to give them all brief performance evaluations every year (not at the same complexity as an office job evaluation). And then whatever hassles come from scheduling and rescheduling people to work the lines as people may or may not show up for whatever reason that morning. For him, it's more people hassle than production hassle.
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Dr Bass
Member
As a software engineering manager I totally get it. And it can be a nightmare. And you also clearly have a strong work ethic, which I respect the hell out of.
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Ionian
Member
Live with parents that tolerate you. As for a date? Find someone who does the same, then you have two places to stay.
QSD
Member
Hmmm, well I guess we have very different experiences with management then. I work for a large care company in Amsterdam, I've never seen management 'roll up their sleeves' when there were shortages due to Corona. They just find new ways to pressure and cajole employees into working extra shifts (and thus putting themselves at risk more). They're not gonna show up to help shower elderly people, it's not in their job description.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
You've never seen it because you dont work in demand planning or supply chain. You're taking literally "rolling up your sleeves" which again fits your physical work narrative as you definitely have a physical labour kind of job or work setting involving lots of people or hands on work. You got to think of putting in extra work as not always putting on overalls and work on a line with steel toe boots.
Management can only do so much too. Another bad assumption is a manager knows everything. Not true. He or she only knows so much and if they cant solve it they'll ask around someone else to help fix the issue. If SAP breaks down at the office, I'm pretty sure if I went to the VP of Finance saying SAP isn't working can you help me fix it, all he'd do it tell me to go to IT and have them look into it. That's why a boss values employees being proactive and trying to figure out stuff themselves instead of making a beeline to them when it's obvious they arent going to be the ones fixing it. But if lets say a few analysts quit, then the finance directors would have to get involved because they are shorthanded people and numbers analysis is something they can pitch in and cover. No finance managers are going to sit there and do nothing for two months as they re-fill the roles.
When account managers leave the company, it's not like sales or phone calls to customer head offices come to a grinding halt. Someone fills in and it'll be their manager until a new person is hired. Another account manager will likely not fill in unless they are asked to permanently take over the role because they dont want rotating account managers filling in for a month. And more importantly they dont want another acct manager knowing the details which they can use to their advantage for their own accounts.
When there's major shortages and the DP/SC guys cant secure product or materials, management can take the reins and try to secure it. Due to shortages, you cant make product out of nowhere and machines can only make stuff so fast. In these cases, someone will be cut product.
But what happens is upper management will negotiate to try to secure content from external suppliers. And if it's internally made content they can chat among themselves as regional factories and offices and redirect supply to other countries.
For example, most of out stuff is made in the US where I work. Due to covid shorts, its up to our team to take proactive measure to get as much stuff up here to Canada or else there's good chance the US wont give a shit about us. Then it becomes a "split the pie" game of who gets how much. And that's management's call. It's even tougher to split the pie because some of the stuff is specific to country. So if the US goes on a manufacturing binge and it's a product specific to US markets, we'd get nothing. Then they'd say something like "Well, you should had talked to us earlier".
Joshmyersbv above gave you a special chip shortage cut example of management stepping in, yet you purposely ignored it.
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Buggy Loop
Member
Not related to being a dog walker or anything, but I found this profoundly sad
Only a few % that are on top of that work you put out gets to party. Marketing and banks just made sure you were so in debt that 100% of your young years are spent to cumulate maybe something decent for the ages where you can bite the dust any time.
I guess this is anti work. I saw my mother give her all for a decent living, raising 2 kids alone, only to fucking die within 5 years of retirement. It’s fucked up.
Only a few % that are on top of that work you put out gets to party. Marketing and banks just made sure you were so in debt that 100% of your young years are spent to cumulate maybe something decent for the ages where you can bite the dust any time.
I guess this is anti work. I saw my mother give her all for a decent living, raising 2 kids alone, only to fucking die within 5 years of retirement. It’s fucked up.
OmegaSupreme
advanced basic bitch
"If you're explaining, you're losing" It's an old political axiom but it holds up for this. The term antiwork on its own doesn't sound like people who want better wages, better treatment, etc. It sounds like bums who don't want to work. I know coming up with phrases and slogans is hard but why not something like r/fairwork? Then this person comes along and personifies every negative stereotype and he's the mod? It's easy to see why this whole subreddit got called out as bums.
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Apeopleman
Member
Very interesting video there. 100% agree on the fact the employers will always pay employees less than what they’re worth
sorry about your mom man. Gave the most important years of her life for you
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
That's how capitalism works. Why the hell would any business owner pay all his profits to employees? It's their risk and theyre management. And depending on the type of business, it can involve personal loans and his own money.
Employees have zero skin in the game because if the business fails, all they do is get severance pay and move to the next company that hires them. If you think of it, employees are no different than mercenaries working for the highest bidder and come and go when some other boss offers an extra $1000.
If the building catches fire, what happens? Management and insurance try to solve it and gets things up and running again asap. What do employees do? Sit at home doing nothing. Many will look for another job to bail ship.
It's not like employees doing a shitty job tanking the business have to pay back the boss for failing. So if the company is successful, why should the boss pay out all his profits to workers? Cant have it both ways.
It's management's business they run and the point of banking profits is to save for a rainy day and possibly expand the business. And also to pay out severance to losers who cant save a dime and will struggle to find another job. So laws are enacted where employers have to babysit employees by giving them some handout money so they can pay bills for the next month even though they dont even work for the company anymore. Cant do that if every profit dollar is paid out.
Employees have zero skin in the game because if the business fails, all they do is get severance pay and move to the next company that hires them. If you think of it, employees are no different than mercenaries working for the highest bidder and come and go when some other boss offers an extra $1000.
If the building catches fire, what happens? Management and insurance try to solve it and gets things up and running again asap. What do employees do? Sit at home doing nothing. Many will look for another job to bail ship.
It's not like employees doing a shitty job tanking the business have to pay back the boss for failing. So if the company is successful, why should the boss pay out all his profits to workers? Cant have it both ways.
It's management's business they run and the point of banking profits is to save for a rainy day and possibly expand the business. And also to pay out severance to losers who cant save a dime and will struggle to find another job. So laws are enacted where employers have to babysit employees by giving them some handout money so they can pay bills for the next month even though they dont even work for the company anymore. Cant do that if every profit dollar is paid out.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
You seem to be conflating management and owners. Management jump ship just as, if not more often than regular employees and have just as little skin in the game (except for stock options). For any listed company, the owners are the shareholders -and they generally have zero interest in management or the regular employees or even the business just what the share price is doing. Some of the shareholders are just computer algorithms.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
100% agree.
The term "anti" means going against something. Like you're doing a 180 vs a topic at hand. In this case, trying to work as little as possible which exactly fits with the dog walker attitude of working PT hours and hoping to work even less hours if he could. So to me, the term fits perfectly.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
It doesn't really matter if it's an owner who mortgaged his house to get a business going, or if there's no direct owner but 100000 shareholders owning a corporation.
Both direct owners or a slew of management have a lot more skin the game to keep things humming along. Their jobs have a lot more responsibility, and worst of all involves babysitting grown adults. And keeping the business going requires profits. And if that's what shareholders want, that's the end goal. If not, what's the point of even investing in a company if it breaks even every month because all profits are funneled to gigantic annual bonuses? I wouldnt invest $1.
Either way, profits are the way the business needs to succeed and save for a rainy day or pour into R&D, or even give employees the annual 2% inflation bump up in wages. Even if it's an owner who hoards all the profits to buy 20 yachts, hey it's his business. If the business fails, it's not like any of the employees will give the boss even $5 to help him out.
Pejo
Member
Boy this video plays like communist propaganda pretty bad. Sure Employers are set to make a profit off of your work. Why would anyone create a business to lose money on its employees? How would that even work? Also, employers take the vast majority of the risk of business including loans, credit lines, etc, where an average employee can just bail at any time if things are looking south.
Obviously large corps can suck a dick, but small businesses are included in his umbrella too, and they get the worst of it from both sides.
Is this guy a college prof? Makes sense why we have so many zoomer communist-leaning students running around if so.
TaylorSwiftFan
Member
I have to say, I don’t have a reddit account but the community there looks insufferable. Not just antiwork but other subreddits too.
It's the worst discussion site online by far. It's filled with the whiniest people imaginable who are obsessed with shutting down any opinion that's different from their own. They can't even handle a different opinion without getting triggered and having a meltdown - of course they can't handle working an actual job.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Amen.
What people dont understand is businesses want to make profit to stay alive and enjoy, but for all the anti-work/anti-corporate people out there, let's not all act like 99% of workers are slaves making bad money, all the bosses have whips and and only the CEO makes good money. There's tons of good paying jobs. And if there's one organization that pays well and will take on just about anyone is government. So for any fry cook complaining, go apply for a gov job like the millions of other people got and do a low end job clerical role that pays $20/hr with benefits and pension.
Now if gov doesn't want to hire you to even to cut the grass or do leaf blowing in the summer, then it shows you got even worse skills than you think.
Companies want to hum along, do well, make some money and no managers want a balls to the wall culture of hassles. If you got half decent talent and seem like a good person in interviews with no attitude, it's not mensa scoring a $50k/job (about $25/hr) like the other millions of people in the world make.
For anyone wanting to move up the ladder, I'd say the first thing to do is spend a few nights making a great cover letter + resume. Dont rush it thinking you can make a good one in half an hour. Find some good ones online, copy the theme and format and then make it your own. Read it over a million times for spelling and grammar mistakes. Unless you know someone who can get you in, your first impression for most job applications is your resume.
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Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
Working individuals shouldn't be living below the poverty line in their area.
It's nice that some companies tell workers how to apply for food stamps to be subsidized by the state, but maybe we shouldn't be subsidizing multibillion companies.
Problem is how are they supposed to save if their pay puts them below the poverty line and they don't earn enough even to feed themselves.
Again some don't want to hear it but this is exploitation.
The Pleasure
Member
Damn you got that America on tap. Drinking yourself dead on propoganda from the fifties. Canada has more of the American dream then America.
Mistake
Member
I managed to do it, but things aren’t as simple as showing up to work like it was during the baby boom era. If someone has debt or a family to take care of, it’s especially hard to climb up. That being said, this system rewards those who value themselves the most. A lot of people forget that, and get stuck sticking with the same wage, same job, or don’t continue to improve themselves. It’s all a big game, you just need to know how to play
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
If thats all you ask, then the gov has already solved it for you.
The US Federal Poverty Line for 2021 is about $14,000, which is $7/hr. The lowest state min wage is $7.25/hr and that goes up to $15 pending which state someone lives in. Sounds solved to me.
Poverty Thresholds
Poverty Thresholds by Size of Family and Number of Related Children Under 18 Years Source: Current Population Survey (CPS)
www.census.gov
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
Remember a man has to be able to both have a couple of kids and a stay at home wife as in the past. According to the guideline a couple of kids and a wife needs 26,500 to reach poverty line.If thats all you ask, then the gov has already solved it for you.
The US Federal Poverty Line for 2021 is about $14,000, which is $7/hr. The lowest state min wage is $7.25/hr and that goes up to $15 pending which state someone lives in. Sounds solved to me.
Poverty Thresholds
Poverty Thresholds by Size of Family and Number of Related Children Under 18 Years Source: Current Population Survey (CPS)
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StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Nobody has ever defined a living wage having to support a family. All you said was poverty line which turns out is $14,000 ($7/hr). And all states pay more than with many pay double digit. So the problem is solved.
You just didn't think the federal poverty line was so low. You probably thought it was $30 or 40k. But it's really $14,000.
InfiniteCombo
Banned
And in the United States, if you make $12,500 (single) or $25,000 (married filing jointly), forget about paying taxes, you don't even have to file tax returns at all.
In fact, I saw an article somewhere (CNBC I think) that said something like, "People in the United States earning $75,000 or less may not have to pay any federal income tax."
Not paying taxes should be considered yet another way in which the government (both federal and state) takes lower middle class and poor Americans into consideration. It's a form of help, even if people don't see it that way.
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
They could in the past, with low skill labor. A high school grad could support a family with low skill job. Why not now? Should people be paid less over time for the same amount of work?
Bernd Lauert
Banned
I'm as middle class as it gets but I can't bring myself to defend the system and tell people in worse conditions to just pull themselves up their bootstraps. I could've done it maybe 30 years ago, but after all the theft and scams that have happened in the past couple of decades, I just can't.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Forgot about that. Canada is in the same boat with similar kinds of income tax exemptions. Found this online. But you must file a return if you worked. Even if you made bad money, you still got to file.
Tax-free basic personal amounts
For the 2020 tax year, the federal basic personal amount is $13,229 (for taxpayers with a net income of $150,473 or less). This means that an individual Canadian taxpayer can earn up-to $13,229 in 2020 before paying any federal income tax.
For the 2021 tax year, the federal basic personal amount is $13,808 (for taxpayers with a net income of $151,978 or less). This means that an individual Canadian taxpayer can earn up-to $13,808 in 2021 before paying any federal income tax. There are also provincial basic personal tax credit amounts, set by each province.
In Ontario, for the 2020 tax year the basic personal tax credit amount is $10,783. For the 2021 tax year this amount is $10,880.
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StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Not sure why you are asking me. The US gov and states set poverty line thresholds and min wages, not me. If thats what they set for 2021, that's the rates.
And according to them, it's $14,000 for a single person in 2021.
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Woody Nvincible
Member
This has to be satire. Are you actually arguing that you agree with the federal poverty line?If thats all you ask, then the gov has already solved it for you.
The US Federal Poverty Line for 2021 is about $14,000, which is $7/hr. The lowest state min wage is $7.25/hr and that goes up to $15 pending which state someone lives in. Sounds solved to me.
Poverty Thresholds
Poverty Thresholds by Size of Family and Number of Related Children Under 18 Years Source: Current Population Survey (CPS)
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
It really comes down to what amount of money you (or anyone) thinks someone deserves for even the lowest job out there (let's say it's a paperboy). Someone doing this job will definitely be paid at or near minimum wage which in every US state min wage is $7.25 - $15/hr. And in Canada I think the min wage per province is $12 - 15/hr.
You can give him the bare minimum or the company can offer him $20/hr or more. Your call.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
I just posted it since Omega said people shouldnt be paid under the poverty line. And the poverty line is $14,000 ($7/hr). Every state pays more than this. So it solves it.
As for any country's min wage and poverty lines they set, that's their call. If you think their $14,000/yr poverty line is bad, what do you think it should be?
kraspkibble
Permabanned.
that news dude is a fucking smug cunt. don't fully agree with the guy from reddit but urgh.
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Goalus
Member
Would you mind using the correct pronoun?
Pejo
Member
Looks like more drama over there. The new subreddit that they set up to migrate from /r/antiwork has already been compromised by more communist agenda pushers, causing another fracture and more drama.
Links from this image can be found here and here
How fucking deep does the agenda pushing on reddit go exactly? Holy shit.
Links from this image can be found here and here
How fucking deep does the agenda pushing on reddit go exactly? Holy shit.
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