StereoVsn
Member
Yeah, Disney and Sony investments into Epic are a bit dubious. Now partially that was because Hollywood now uses Unreal for movie productions, but still, that was a ton of cash.
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Apple Terminated Epic’s Developer Account
- Thread starter cyberheater
- Start date
Banjo64
cumsessed
"Epic's egregious breach of its contractual obligations to Apple led courts to determine that Apple has the right to terminate "any or all of Epic Games' wholly owned subsidiaries, affiliates, and/or other entities under Epic Games' control at any time and at Apple's sole discretion." In light of Epic's past and ongoing behavior, Apple chose to exercise that right."
www.macrumors.com
Apple Explains Why It Terminated Epic's Latest Developer Account
Apple today said it has terminated Epic Games Sweden's developer account worldwide due to the game developer's pattern of untrustworthy...
www.macrumors.com
StereoVsn
Member
Maybe in US, but outside the US , Android is generally much more popular.
And especially in EU, Apple is not near the majority of phones. They said, I would t mind at least seeing non WebKit browsers here in US.
BlackTron
Member
What made it a general computing platform? Assuming by general you mean "popular".
This is like saying that Nintendo had a monopoly on a platform that 90% of video game makers rely on for their livelihood in 1988. Well, yeah they did. That's how they got there. Without exclusive control Nintendo has no reason or desire to carefully design and launch the NES as a mass consumer product. Anyone is free to enter with a feasible alternative (Sega). Anyone is free to use an open platform instead of a console (PC). Which in this case would be Android. This is just whining because Apple's formula is too successful so it's "unfair".
Again I don't like Apple. But I don't want to rewrite the rules of doing business just because of that.
DrFigs
Member
people aren't ready to accept this truth
jshackles
Gentlemen, we can rebuild it. We have the capability to make the world's first enhanced store. Steam will be that store. Better than it was before.
The NES sold 62 million units.
There have been over 1.5 billion iPhones sold to date. It's past being "popular" and is now firmly in the realm of "ubiquitous".
You're also trying to compare something that's an entertainment device to something that (in America in 2024 at least) is a requirement for daily life - you literally cannot get a job, rent an apartment, bank, get utility services, date, or in some cases even buy food without having a smartphone these days.
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BlackTron
Member
It seems implied that you are making a point by adding this information, what is it?
Dr.Morris79
Gold Member
One thing I do know is, it's a company I'll never be giving money.
MarkMe2525
Member
What makes it a general computing platform? I believe that is obvious and self evident, and it has nothing to do with it being "popular". Your comparison to singularly focused platforms is irrelevant and doesn't help your argument, which I guess is .... well I don't know what it is.
Unlike you, I don't hate Apple, I'm just not pretending that they did not build their empire on the backs of tens of thousands of developers that made the content that drove their success. Now, Apple is in a position where they can quite literally break a company for whatever arbitrary reason they come up with and that needs to change. The same thing happened to MS in the 90's (I recognize the differences, I'm referring to the intervention from regulatory agencies.)
Is it a good thing that 90% of mobile developers professional lives is held in the hands of a singular mega corp? Is it a good thing for consumers to have only one storefront to select from on Apples platform? Hypothetically, would we be ok with MS locking out all other software sales and force devs to publish their work exclusively on a store that they control?
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jshackles
Gentlemen, we can rebuild it. We have the capability to make the world's first enhanced store. Steam will be that store. Better than it was before.
I edited the post above
Meaning that as smartphones become more and more a part of everyone's everyday lives, they are going to need to be regulated like this more and more to keep what is currently unchecked capitalism in check. When homeless people need a thing in order to survive, that's typically when the government steps in and starts controlling it. It's also the point where I personally consider that thing to be a "general computing platform", but I suppose legally speaking that's up to the courts to decide (hopefully, eventually).
Kacho
Member
Apple consumers don't give a shit
FullMetalx117
Member
If Microsoft isn't allowed a cut for every single sale made on Windows, then Apple shouldn't be allowed for every single sale on iOS. Windows itself is also just "popular", people have plenty of other OS' to choose from such as Linux.
MarkMe2525
Member
Well, you don't miss what you never had. I don't even believe that another store would be incredibly successful, Apple has a great product and people will choose their store because of that. They just shouldn't be allowed to actively block block competition, IMO. Meta and Android are great examples, almost no one uses anything other than their respective default stores, but I can purchase software on itch.io and install on my phone or Quest 3 no problem. Android even has a pop-up warning users that they can't guarantee the security of such apps, but one should be allowed to make that decision for themselves.
tkscz
Member
I honestly forgot about the EU ruling, now I'm more interested.
Dr. Wilkinson
Member
As a gaming hobbyist/ enthusiast forum, this seems completely uninteresting and irrelevant. 
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RoboFu
One of the green rats
Meanwhile ..
playtoday.co
Roblox Statistics About Revenue, Players, and Developers
Roblox is a global phenomenon. Continue reading to learn about its popularity and how much money this game’s earning through some startling Roblox statistics.
playtoday.co
Magic Carpet
Member
This is my take.
If I wanted to play Fortnite on my phone I would get a phone that plays fortnight.
Im typing this on my iPhone.
The people raising their voices and making a Stink are people who refuse to give apple money.
BlackTron
Member
I think that this might become a conversation if Apple had a monopoly on the smartphone market, but they don't. The problem is about having a monopoly on the app store of their own device, not a monopoly of the smartphone industry itself. OK, you need a phone to get a job or apartment. It doesn't need to be made by Apple, and if it is, you don't need to download anything paid off their app store to perform those functions. It probably can as soon as it's updated out of the box. "Obama phones" were always Androids. The takeaway is that the option existed. That's not a monopoly to be regulated in the context you are suggesting.
phant0m
Member
PC has always been an open platform. iOS never has been. Why don’t PS and Xbox offer alternative stores? It’s their hardware and their ecosystem. Apple is the same way.
mayham2199
Member
Why does the way Microsoft run their business get to dictate how Apples chooses to run theirs?
Kacho
Member
Because at the end of the day it's all about Tim Sweeny being unhappy with Apple getting a 30% cut of their Fortnite bux. It's so stupid.As a gaming hobbyist/ enthusiast forum, this seems completely uninteresting and irrelevant.
RoboFu
One of the green rats
Not really windows and Ms dos has always been third party software.
Bojanglez
The Amiga Brotherhood
Epic should just 'loan', donate or fund a proxy startup with enough money to create a legally disconnected store and put their stuff on that after it launches."Epic's egregious breach of its contractual obligations to Apple led courts to determine that Apple has the right to terminate "any or all of Epic Games' wholly owned subsidiaries, affiliates, and/or other entities under Epic Games' control at any time and at Apple's sole discretion." In light of Epic's past and ongoing behavior, Apple chose to exercise that right."
Apple Explains Why It Terminated Epic's Latest Developer Account
Apple today said it has terminated Epic Games Sweden's developer account worldwide due to the game developer's pattern of untrustworthy...
IFireflyl
Gold Member
The entire business model of Windows was that it was an open platform. (That doesn't mean open source, by the way. Don't misunderstand that.)
Apple's entire business model for iPhones was that it was a closed platform.
Microsoft COULD have released Windows in a locked-down environment and charged developers to create on its platform. It chose not to. Apple, by contrast, chose to release iOS in a locked-down environment and charge developers to create on its platform.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
I'm pretty shocked to see so many siding with Apple on this. Not that Epic are exactly "the good guys", but this seems like complete BS on Apple's part.
MarkMe2525
Member
PS and xbox are not general purpose computers. The whataboutism is not a very productive stance to take. I'm sure Bell Company had similar argument back when regulatory agencies forced them to split due to their control over a new vital asset, the telephone network.
Apples isn't some boutique tech startup, they are a titan of industry and their products through smart design and marketing has become akin to 21st century utility. When you get this big and powerful, you have obligations to society and the rest of the industry. Let's consider that they are rich from our money and desirable because of the apps that 3rd party developers build. No one gets an iPhone for the email client or calculator (iMessage is the most desirable application that they build), they want an iPhone (or any smartphone) for the 3rd party apps.
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FullMetalx117
Member
From a practical perspective, when you think about what led to the U.S. government suing Microsoft in the 90s - Microsoft forcing everyone to use Internet Explorer on Windows/Killing of Netscape - its eerily similar to what Apple is doing today with its app store. But Microsoft lost, had to open up Windows, and the world is better because of it. Back then, Microsoft was also extremely popular with the general public and the gov suing them was not popular. It had to be done.
BlackTron
Member
If Apple is a walled garden, then it's not really a general purpose computer. It's a walled garden. Many people bought Apple exactly because they wanted the walled garden. If you don't want it, there's no conflict. You can just get a different phone. Bell Co had control of a critical infrastructure; Apple doesn't. You can ignore Apple in every way and still use a smartphone to access the Internet, make calls and download apps.
The only thing they have a monopoly over is the store on their own device. You aren't forced to deal with that store, lest you abstain from the vital telephone network/greater Internet. You can just use a different phone -a problem that does not require the government to fix.
Shake Your Rump
Member
You created this thread and posted this comment without actually reading the letter from Apple posted at the URL you provide?
I like how Epic left out the Apple's actual reason in this "open letter".
Here is a TLDR for everyone:
Epic admitted they have deliberately broken Apple TOS previously.
Epic has stated they will deliberately break Apple's TOS again.
Epic has repeatedly disparaged Apple's new terms.
Apple presumes Epic will yet again break their TOS.
Apple terminates Epic account presuming it is not in good faith.
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MarkMe2525
Member
Can you keep a straight face while typing this. Those two terms are not mutually exclusive.
Edit: I'll expand, when your wall extends to encompass every activity one typically does with a general purpose computer, it is a general purpose computer. In fact, the only thing you can't do on iOS is buy software from another store.
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DrCheese
Member
Yes - They're being a bunch of pricks & they will end up getting a massive slapdown at some point. Their blatantly malicious compliance attempt at following the DMA will backfire on them.
It's not just Epic they're dicks to, they abuse their position to smack up Spotify as well
Timeline - Time to Play Fair
www.timetoplayfair.com
Apple's response to being fined by the EU was to come out with the most cope blogpost ever, crying that Spotify should shutup as Apple provides the API for them to exist on iPhone in the first place.
Completely ignoring that without apps, the iPhone would have never taken off like it did, so it's not like Apple get nothing from developers making apps. Imagine if Microsoft complained about not getting cash for every API call an app like Chrome used.
Apple do absolutely need bringing down a peg or two, because they've become a modern-day version of Microsoft in the 90s
Apple is in its Ballmer era
During Ballmer's reign as CEO of Microsoft, the company always made plenty of money. While the stock traded sideways, Ballmer made sure it was still raining dividends. Yet, today, that era of Microsoft is not looked upon too fondly. It's seen as being anchored in the company's historic paranoia...
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BlackTron
Member
Can you explain what is so eerily similar about it? The issues with Netscape were that 1) Windows had completely dominated OS choice and 2) they were bundling IE in "for free" to kill software competition.
Apple doesn't have a monopoly, so it would be hard for them to use their weight as one to force anything. For example, Apple could not use their grand status as maker of iPhones to attempt to create a similar monopoly of smartphone web browsers because before even talking about their own platform they would need to somehow get everyone using Chrome with Android to use Safari instead.
BlackTron
Member
OK, I need to more carefully define "general purpose computer" and maybe I didn't quite hit the mark. In my mind, "general purpose" just means does everything no matter how the hell I want it to. It runs code that's it. Maybe a more accurate general, not personal definition would be a computer that has the capability to check email, pays bills, plays videos, etc.
I agree that, in the latter definition, the terms are not mutually exclusive. But the overall point of my post stands.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
"Epic's egregious breach of its contractual obligations to Apple led courts to determine that Apple has the right to terminate "any or all of Epic Games' wholly owned subsidiaries, affiliates, and/or other entities under Epic Games' control at any time and at Apple's sole discretion." In light of Epic's past and ongoing behavior, Apple chose to exercise that right."
Apple Explains Why It Terminated Epic's Latest Developer Account
Apple today said it has terminated Epic Games Sweden's developer account worldwide due to the game developer's pattern of untrustworthy...
Just based on the paragraph I posted above from the link, if I was Apple I'd terminate them too. if any countries have laws saying you cant do that anymore, thats fine. But at first glance, I'd ditch them too.
Just imagine if you were a store, distributor or reseller and one of your supplier's packaging on shelf or the product's online page on your site says buy direct. And here's a link to go to it too. If that company wants to sell direct, most suppliers wont care, but you got to be discrete about it and not conflict with the resellers you are in business with.
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cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
I’m agreeing with Epic here. As a European Apple had done less than the bare minimum to comply with the European legal ruling relative to competition law. It’s been pretty shameful stuff and I hope the E.U. comes down on Apple very hard So in that respect I agree with Epic.
DrCheese
Member
They have a monopoly on iOS, which is a huge enough market to count. They hold Spotify to rules they don't hold themselves to (30% cut & abusing system-level push notifications, as well as forcing them to jump through hoops)
Timeline - Time to Play Fair
www.timetoplayfair.com
They use their position to muscle out fair competition.
Tile is another example of a competing product they did this with. Overnight they turned every iOS/Mac device into an "airtag" locator for their own tag location setup, but denied Tile the same access.
They refuse other vendors access to the NFC feature in iOS & stop anyone being able to compete with ApplePay on a level playing field.
If you have faith in your own product, then you shouldn't need to be so blatantly anti competitive, as people will pick it on it's own merits.
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FullMetalx117
Member
Apple, by taking a meaningful cut of all app store sales, is limiting the margins of software companies that could potentially make a compelling software product on iOS but would not get investor dollars because the profit isn't there. Apple reducing their cut could compel potential investors to go ahead with the project. It was hard for companies to get capital in the 90s if they were planning to directly compete against Microsoft. In my opinion, Apple's stranglehold on the App Store sales is a deterrent to capitalism.
At worst, Apple has a duopoly with Google similar to Boeing/Airbus which are some of the most regulated companies in the world. And Apple/Google are not exactly "competition" - Google pays Apple $18 billion every year to be the default search in Safari for iOS. Google is fine with being a monopoly on search, while Apple gets to keep 90% of all smartphone profits industry wide.
No one is buying an iPhone for it being a "walled garden", most people don't even know they're going into that style of an ecosystem nor know the term. They bought it because they wanted a computer in their hands and it was shocking to many in earlier iterations of the iPhone when their general purpose mobile computer couldn't do basic things which made jailbreaking popular. iOS is better today because of the jailbreaks, apple ended up implementing many basic jailbreak features in their iOS updates. We still consider these devices as simple "phones" when in reality they go head to head in computing power with basic PCs today and have taken more attention/eyeballs of an average person than any device before. These devices are more impactful in daily life than any general purpose computing device could ever hope to be.
nordique
Member
Meh.
Love them or hate them or anywhere in between, It’s apples platform and epic knew what they were doing when they violated contractual agreements in 2020. Epic did this to themselves and had a chance to comply with new EU regulations and *still* gave Apple the legal speak for sure we intend to comply but really probably won’t
plenty of better ways to play epic store games than via iOS anyways.
Long way since their games back in the iPhone 4 days. That relationship seems permanently damaged now
Love them or hate them or anywhere in between, It’s apples platform and epic knew what they were doing when they violated contractual agreements in 2020. Epic did this to themselves and had a chance to comply with new EU regulations and *still* gave Apple the legal speak for sure we intend to comply but really probably won’t
plenty of better ways to play epic store games than via iOS anyways.
Long way since their games back in the iPhone 4 days. That relationship seems permanently damaged now
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
reinking
Gold Member
It's not over the tweet specifically but that tweet is an example of how Epic may not be acting in good faith. This is over the past breach and continued public statements that make Apple not trust Tim with "just trust me bro." I think most sensible people agree that actions have consequences and Epic has not only proved that they would breach Apple agreements in the past, but one in which they admittedly did it for financial gain and to purposely circumvent it. When asked for more proof that they would comply Epic failed to provide more assurances. "Fuckin retarded" is being so against one company or for another that you are willing to dismiss previous actions that relate to the issue at hand. Epic needs to provide assurances and play like an adult and not give Apple the ammo they need to deny the developers account.
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Dorfdad
Gold Member
F Apple Im not getting another iPhone or Idevices. They lock down all the good stuff and we never get features or apps that we want. Epic isn't in the right toasty but this and apples circumventing the EU laws about the App Store to punish people more, it's time for APPLE to get a reality check.
Loomy
Thinks Microaggressions are Real
Fortnite mobile has generated over $1b for Epic.
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DaleinCalgary
Member
Apple invented the so called "app" on phones. It's their O/S and if you don't want to play by their rules then don't try to develop for it. Simple
