Zoe
Member
Most people date to find someone they want to spend the rest of lives with. In order to do that, you have to agree on having kids or not.
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Are transgendered folk obligated to disclose that information to potential mates?
- Thread starter kinggroin
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Most people date to find someone they want to spend the rest of lives with. In order to do that, you have to agree on having kids or not.
Vermillion
Banned
Corollary: people have the right to be upset about the withheld information.
Eh, it's both ways.
Rocket Scientist
Member
Just read an article bashing that Sandra Fluke lady about an article she co-edited called Employment Discrimination Against LGBTQ Persons. The article she co-edited argues that gender reassignment is sometimes medically necessary and that healthcare insurances discriminate by not covering the cost. So now the right wing blogs are bashing her for that because according to them it's not medically necessary. We live in such a sad world.
I don't know if transgendered people believe they should (perhaps reading the whole thread would answer this question), but for me, knowing this is a 100% absolute necessity for any relationship.
Am I a transphobe? When it comes to my own sex life, I could probably be called that.
You're just getting hyper-defensive, to make a statement like this.
Am I a transphobe? When it comes to my own sex life, I could probably be called that.
I don't get the impression that you're new to this "sexuality" thing, but it's nothing at all like your childish onion problem.
You're just getting hyper-defensive, to make a statement like this.
Whoa, chill out. There are better ways to state your opinion, and most of this thread would provide a good example. The first half of your post is fine, but your attack on Gaborn's comment comes off as far more defensive than anything he's posted.
I'm not going to say you're a transphobe, but I would say if "knowing this is a 100% absolute necessity" for you perhaps you should ask every woman you approach for a date or sex if they were born with a penis. If it's your issue you should be the one to broach the subject.
I'm sorry you feel that way.
Excuse me, but how likely is this to actually come up in the world? I know the "trap" meme is pretty prevalent, and the tropes galore that foster this fear are everywhere. What are the chances of this thing happening on a day to day basis that it warrants 500 pages of horse beating?
I don't know much about trans culture, but it seems to play out that they either settle down with other trans, or they maintain the relationship they were in before identifying as the opposite gender, or there are those that have already fetishized (sp) an attraction to trans and seek them out. I could be completely wrong and I apologize if I've caused offense. It just seems those are the logical avenues regarding courtship and whatnot.
For the lone trans that just wants to be what they are and start life as the person they identify as, how often does it happen that they are asked out by people who are completely clueless? Not very I imagine.
Brandon Teena is the only instance I can think of in this case, but that was whole other set of extenuating circumstances, culture, and climate.
We're all going to be women in 1000 years or less anyway, i.e. self replicating. What's the big deal?
I don't know much about trans culture, but it seems to play out that they either settle down with other trans, or they maintain the relationship they were in before identifying as the opposite gender, or there are those that have already fetishized (sp) an attraction to trans and seek them out. I could be completely wrong and I apologize if I've caused offense. It just seems those are the logical avenues regarding courtship and whatnot.
For the lone trans that just wants to be what they are and start life as the person they identify as, how often does it happen that they are asked out by people who are completely clueless? Not very I imagine.
Brandon Teena is the only instance I can think of in this case, but that was whole other set of extenuating circumstances, culture, and climate.
We're all going to be women in 1000 years or less anyway, i.e. self replicating. What's the big deal?
Perhaps no sexual minority is more maligned or misunderstood than trans women. As a group, we have been systematically pathologized by the medical and psychological establishment, sensationalized and ridiculed by the media, marginalized by mainstream lesbian and gay organizations, dismissed by certain segments of the feminist community, and, in too many instances, been made the victims of violence at the hands of men who feel that we somehow threaten their masculinity and heterosexuality. Rather than being given the opportunity to speak for ourselves on the very issues that affect our own lives, trans women are instead treated more like research subjects: Others place us under their microscopes, dissect our lives and assign motivations and desires to us that validate their own theories and agendas regarding gender and sexuality.
QuickSilverD
Member
You see the problem with your sujection is that there are many things that many diferent individuals see as dealbreakers, I'm sure most people aren't even thinking about transesuality when they date so I think it is more of an stadistical problem.
A quick google search tells me that the number of transexuals are maybe at best 1 in 500 individuals, I've seen some number that put that chance at around 1 in 100,000 people, I'm sure somebody will correct me on that.
The point being that something like this is just not high up there in people priority list when they talk to someone for the first few times, that however would not invalidate the argument: There are people who do not want to be involved with transgender people, is it fare to not disclose information that could be a dealbreaker for, who I'm extimating is most people?
Meus Renaissance
Member
Why
QuickSilverD
Member
see transwomen as Men dressing as females? thus disminishing their cause? maybe?
Sure, you can't anticipate every potential "issue" an individual might have but then that's kind of the point. Too many people seem to take the view that the "burden" is on the trans person to anticipate that the person currently expressing interest in them would suddenly not be interested if they knew and thus disclose it so they can walk away. Too many of the people expressing these sentiments seem almost afraid of meeting and getting close to a transwoman because *gasp* they were born genetically male. I don't see the reason to indulge petty hang ups (at least right off the bat, I see nothing wrong with disclosing once the trust is there and it's a comfortable situation even if it shouldn't be an obligation) unless the person is asked.
I'm pretty sure it's considerably higher than that though I haven't looked at the statistics in a while.
There are people that don't want to be involved with Jews or all sorts of groups of people, is the burden always on every member of a particular minority to disclose? What about a Turkish person who doesn't want to date an Armenian? An Israeli who doesn't want to date a Palestinian?
It's much easier to let the person with the hang up broach the subject.
I believe as evolved beings in a binary gendered society, most uniformed people feel sympathetic embarrassment and repulsion that someone would choose to be the "weaker" sex. This is purely intuition talking and not a personal belief.
I believe this is also the root of homophobia as well, that group being perceived at large as effeminate in nature.
I believe this is also the root of homophobia as well, that group being perceived at large as effeminate in nature.
I think it has more to do with the cultural revulsion straight guys have with the idea of being attracted to or dating someone they perceive as "male." It doesn't matter that in fact they DID find the person attractive and they DID enjoy dating them, the fact that they're dating a guy is too much of a shock for some of them. I kind of understand but at the same time as a gay male I think it's silly to be so hung up on the fact you find someone attractive.
QuickSilverD
Member
Like I said is something most people would not expect. Also wouldn't it be better like that, if disclosure will end their chances isn't it better to end it sooner rather than later? cut your loses. Unless the thinking is that if only enoght time is given someone would change their conviction?
Some of your examples are about racism, some about religion, some about long standing conflicts between nations that yes are all good reasons to avoid or break relationships, but the only point I'm making is that, because this situation with the transgender is so unusual, and that is why it fall on them to disclose that, also note that I am only talking about situations were said information would eventually come out anyway.
That is probably true, but you said it yourself, it is like eating onions. We can't blame people for that kind of reaction
Yeah, that's what I can't get my head around in this hypothetical, putting myself in that position. I consider sexuality fluid in nature, neither black nor white, and am at peace with all those who express how they are made.
I think if I had to be completely honest, I would hesitate because of Frankenstein's monster / uncanny valley body mods, because in the back of my mind I imagine this person being butchered in an operating room for hours, days, weeks. I don't understand this because doctors scare the shit out of me and I will never set foot in a doctors office willingly. I know I am wrong and uneducated to feel this way. I can't, as a man, understand or ever will know what it's like to need to be the opposite sex. I know what it's like to crave a smoke, porn, tell someone you love them, be creative, ect. But to be trapped in a body proprioceptively alien is akin to claustrophobia... which is also a problem. I can't relate. I think that frustrates a lot of people psychologically right off the bat.
I'm sure this could all be worked out over a few beers though. Keep fighting girls.
Gay and lesbian is mostly because of inner homofobia (like hating too girly gays = hating someone "so girly" that had to change sex), seeing as going to date heterosexual people, not being females (in lesbian cases) .... thousands of options
For feminists .. see Womyn-born womyn wikipedia article
edit : wikipedia does have an article on Transphobia in the lesbian, gay and bisexual community
I think it was said best earlier in the thread, it's not relevant information until you're trying to get into their pants. There is no obligation in my view but I think the earliest ARGUMENT for disclosure would be sometime before sex. I do think though that if people got to know a person and THEN found out they're TG there is a better chance of a positive reaction and a continued relationship than if they found out before and they were unwilling to even give the relationship a CHANCE. Like you said, some people don't want to date trans women.
But Lexi said something interesting earlier in the thread, that her current boyfriend had a similar attitude before he met her and got to know her and he has no problem dating her. So I do think that sometimes getting to know a person gets them to change their stance.
I don't think ANY of those are particularly good reasons to break up with someone or avoid a relationship. Yes because your family raised you a particular way some of those pairings would face difficulties but that's society's problem. Fuck seeing a member of a "group" look at people as PEOPLE and get to know a person before you adopt the "no sale" attitude.
I'm not blaming them for their reaction, I'm saying they need to evaluate how rational it is. My example with asking people to ask every woman they date if they have a penis is to demonstrate how petty and foolish that is, as well as make them think how each and every girl they might approach would react. How awkward it is. Just how bad of an ice breaker it is.
QuickSilverD
Member
Good thing nobody takes these kind of people seriously
ah good old wikipedia "The neutrality of this section is disputed"
Transphobia in the LGB community is as if not more widespread than the non-queer community. To me this is not a disputed fact.
Some LGB people resent trans people cause we 'hold back' progression on rights for them, all inclusive legislation for LGBT is far less likely to pass than LGB specific stuff.
Some LGB people resent trans people cause we 'hold back' progression on rights for them, all inclusive legislation for LGBT is far less likely to pass than LGB specific stuff.
QuickSilverD
Member
See I'm not gay and by GAF standars I'm probably not very supportive of LGBT rights, but I don't get this, you would think that a comunity used to get the shaf by society would be more understanding towards people that get shaf all the time.
You say the LGB community is worse in this department than the general public? how can that even be? I'm guessing you have had bad experiences with LGB people?
It doesn't work like that, sadly. People look out for themselves, they have routinely seen LGB legislation with trans provisions fail, and they blame our existence for that.
QuickSilverD
Member
if they notice legislation in favor of Trans people keeps failing, I think it is perfectly logical to not want to deal with that or even block them from being added in LGB legislation, just like how single-payer wouldn't pass in the US and you have to settle for less than you may originally want, you know baby steps.
If that is the case I get it, sucks but I get the logic, but I'm more interested in knowing how do you feel LGB people treat you, your last reply indicated that there was some animosity there, so I wonder, is there? do you feel LGB people in general are really even more intolerant that the General Public?
I have to say from a gay perspective I've known gay people that didn't like trans people, there are even gay people that discriminate against bisexuals. I'm not going to presume on Lexi's answer but I will say I've talked to her quite a bit off GAF and I think we've got a good friendship. It's not a universal thing and I'm not even sure a majority of gay people have negative feelings to trans people but it's certainly a vocal minority of people.
I think prejudice is very natural in marginalized communities as icarus-daedalus, as sucky as that is. I think a lot of it comes from an "us against them" feeling where, once a group gets (at least some of) their rights it sort of sees a group that needs more support as too much of a burden. If you look at the history of the abolitionist movement for example, women were a VERY large voice fighting to end slavery but once the 13th and particularly 15th amendments were passed there was a sharp distancing between the anti-slavery movement and the women's suffrage movement.
Sapiens
Member
God, who cares?
Is it really the end of the world if this happens?
If you're attracted to someone, and they are a willing partner, then go for it.
If there were potential for a long term relationship, I doubt any trans person would be dumb enough to conceal it past the first few dates.
It just seems so unimportant.
Is it really the end of the world if this happens?
If you're attracted to someone, and they are a willing partner, then go for it.
If there were potential for a long term relationship, I doubt any trans person would be dumb enough to conceal it past the first few dates.
It just seems so unimportant.
Have you not seen the black vs gay threads on here? No minority group ever feels kinship with another, because people are shit. Individuals within the two gropups may feel it, but it will very rarely be officially acknowledged.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Marginalized people marginalizing other marginalized people is just one of the saddest things in this world.
Word to the mufuckin word. Folks just like to argue I guess.
Fixed.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Well, it's true that people getting marginalized is a sad thing in this world. But for marginalized people to marginalize other that also suffer from marginalization--that's just really, really sad.
"You guys should know how I feel, why are you doing to me what you guys don't want other people doing to you?" That kind of sentiment.
Pretty much. When you've been marginalized for so long by the majority, you long to be part of that majority and to obtain mass acceptance. As a result, you tend to dismiss others who are even less accepted by society because by doing so, you feel like you have common belief with the majority at large in shunning the less accepted members of society. You're also hoping that by doing so, you'll be more accepted by the mass at large. Yes, the same majority who have ridiculed, made fun, and often ignore your plight. It's fucked up but that's humans at large for you.
I understand your point, and I don't think you're wrong at all, but I don't feel quite the same way. Every group, no matter how privileged or discriminated against, is made up of people of all kinds. It doesn't surprise me that every group has self-centered or bigoted individuals (as well as great ones).
That being said, I really don't want to argue about this, mostly because I do understand your perspective, and I don't think it's any less valid than my own. Also, we agree that people should treat each other with empathy and respect, and that is much more important.
charlequin
Banned
Divide-and-conquer is one of the key strategies of kyriarchal* oppression.
I mean, this is really freaking obvious with the conflicts between subsets of "LGBT." A broad queer** coalition has more power to push for sweeping changes to laws and society, but it's easy to encourage people to turn on each other. The thing where laws protecting gay rights can be passed as long as the language protecting trans people is stripped out is just a means of getting the coalition to tear itself apart.
There definitely exist communities in which gay men, lesbians, bisexual people of both genders, transfolk of all persuasions, etc. all get along and co-exist (just like there are welcoming communities that span sexuality, race, religion, and other factors) but it's always the result of long, hard, painful work on the part of everyone involved and not any natural automatic solidarity.
*Please forgive me the word choice here, but it's specifically relevant to the point.
**Also maybe problematic? I 'm used to this word in an umbrella meaning but I don't know how contested a label it is.
QuickSilverD
Member
Is it just me or she looks like at chick from csi
Divide-and-conquer is one of the key strategies of kyriarchal* oppression.
I mean, this is really freaking obvious with the conflicts between subsets of "LGBT." A broad queer** coalition has more power to push for sweeping changes to laws and society, but it's easy to encourage people to turn on each other. The thing where laws protecting gay rights can be passed as long as the language protecting trans people is stripped out is just a means of getting the coalition to tear itself apart.
There definitely exist communities in which gay men, lesbians, bisexual people of both genders, transfolk of all persuasions, etc. all get along and co-exist (just like there are welcoming communities that span sexuality, race, religion, and other factors) but it's always the result of long, hard, painful work on the part of everyone involved and not any natural automatic solidarity.
*Please forgive me the word choice here, but it's specifically relevant to the point.
**Also maybe problematic? I 'm used to this word in an umbrella meaning but I don't know how contested a label it is.
Just quoting this because it deserves to be at the top of a page.
QuickSilverD
Member
or you know maybe that is just human nature, and not some kyriarchal* conspiracy :/Divide-and-conquer is one of the key strategies of kyriarchal* oppression.
I mean, this is really freaking obvious with the conflicts between subsets of "LGBT." A broad queer** coalition has more power to push for sweeping changes to laws and society, but it's easy to encourage people to turn on each other. The thing where laws protecting gay rights can be passed as long as the language protecting trans people is stripped out is just a means of getting the coalition to tear itself apart.
*
looked up the definition, didn't really made much sense to me
charlequin
Banned
The big problem with talking about "patriarchy" and related concepts is that most people hear them and think "conspiracy," and then reject that explanation because it's obviously nonsense.
But really when people talk about the patriarchy, they don't mean that there's a secret cadre of men manipulating society to keep women down; they just mean that there are already ways in society that man are advantaged over women, and most individual men, when faced with individual decisions about anything, will pick the one that preserves that advantage over the one that doesn't. When trans issues are used as a wedge against queer rights groups, it isn't some big central Patriarchal Illuminati doing it, it's just individual bigoted assholes seeing an opportunity to hurt people and taking it.
The Wikipedia article does a really bad job of explaining it. The idea is that a "kyriarchy" is a society where people are privileged or disadvantaged on a whole bunch of different identity factors that all intersect. (Or, in other words, every society.) The idea it tries to get across is that sexism and racism and classism and homophobia and transphobia (etc. etc.) are all real, they all have shitty consequences for people, but the ways that they interact with each other aren't always straightforward.
QuickSilverD
Member
And that is reason enough for those people to never use that word, like ever.
I do not if you are one of those that would say it, but if so I would say that there are ways in which men have some advantages and ways in which women have also some advantages, I don't think that in the western world you could say the pendulum tilts heavely on any side.
Also, would you agree with me that of the most people that are truly advantaged by society are the very wealthy and/or politically conected, and that most men aren't this, in fact if you look at the bottom of society (homeless, unemployed,murdered) most would be men
Unless you believe that perfect equality is archivable, then a word like kyriarchy is really redundant and useless, no?
Hm?
Out of the top 344 billionaires I only see like 20 women.
http://www.forbes.com/billionaires/#p_1_s_a0_All industries_All countries_All states_
Not gonna look at all 1,000.
Most political positions are held by men in USA.
QuickSilverD
Member
"most men aren't this" that is what I said, that is still true, most men are not billionaries, Their wealth doesn't make "me" wealthier; most men aren't politicians either, my opinions doesn't become law just because I am a man and the same is true for most men.
What I am saying is that 98% of men get shafted as much as women do, sometimes more even
Yes, living in a patriarchal society does not mean that every man is guaranteed more success than every woman, or even that every man is going to be successful at all. What it does mean is that men on average have more opportunities than women on average. Obviously, many other factors come into play as well, such as men that don't live up to male expectations suffering for it, and sometimes male privilege even works against men.
charlequin
Banned
But it does, and there is ample statistical evidence backing it up in every case: significant economic disadvantages for women even after adjusting for every possible correlative factor; significant racial inequalities in education, interaction with government, and employment that apply even to people from otherwise similar backgrounds; significant, obvious discrimination against gay and trans people in the law of most states and the US federal government.
The whole reason "kyriarchy" was cooked up was to talk about this sort of thing. Being any one of poor or black or female or gay or trans or disabled or mentally ill (or diverting from the societal expectation in any one of a million other ways) puts you at a significant systemic disadvantage to others and exposes you to individual discrimination. Almost everybody has some of these problems and winds up in some situations where their identity works against them and they get screwed over unfairly; almost everyone has some situations where their identity works in their favor -- but the way different identities get treated is not even or balanced at all.
The result is that, yes, most individual men (by the numbers) aren't in the most favored class (white male billionaires, I guess) and therefore have a whole bunch of stuff stuff working against them -- but at the same time most men have advantages in parts of their life (competing with women in the workplace, say) just by virtue of being men. That's the whole point of the word.
TheExplodingHead
Banned
I'm glad you brought this particular subgroup up, because it's in my opinion the most disadvantaged group of all. Specifically when we're discussing severely mentally ill people. Almost at the whim of any health care professional these people can be striped of their rights and freedom, involuntarily locked away against their will, when there is absolutely zero crime involved. And it gets worse the longer they are "in the system", which inexorably breeds a environment for say a schizophrenic to shy away from getting help, for fear of involuntary incarceration.
Anyway, this is one of the issues I'm most vocal about, so good to see it recognized here. But it's absolutely disgusting how the mentally ill are treated and labeled, and striped of their rights by a doctor's pen saying 'not able to care for him/herself, or make rational decisions".
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