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ARMS |OT| (-)-------------
- Thread starter Dandy Crocodile
- Start date
TheGoreMagala
Member
Okay so compared to 14/15 in 10 for popper, cracker seemed to be 13/14 in 10 leaning on 13, so 78 - 84 PPM, which went well with my gut feeling of them being slower.
Surprisingly, the revolver was 11/12 in 10 leaning on 11, so 66 - 72 PPM
Retorcher was 10/11 in 10 very strongly leaning toward ten, so 60 - 66 PPM.
I think they did this and it's the only case of electricity being faster because I'm sure the developers did not want one to be stronger AND faster.
For the triple ones I did my best to shoot the second one once I saw the first one retracting back.
It's only been a few days since I played ranked. Not weeks or anything. This is all practiced against other players not random theory craft. Unfortunately the training mode in this game is pretty bad compared to almost any other fighting game so thorough testing by yourself is fairly limited.
Frame data can be calculated but it wouldn't serve the same purpose. In most fighting games a physical attack has the same start and end point every time you use it so you always know at what point it makes contact. In Arms that isn't the case because the ending contact point varies depending on the distance to your target.
I don't have a 60fps capture device, otherwise I would at least count the exact frames on these punches. I can do it with my 30fps capture device, but it won't be as accurate.
Thanks! I too suspected Cracker must be slower. Still that puts it ahead of everything else you've tested.
Hmmm that's an interesting point. Frame data could be used to determine arm speed though. But more importantly, and maybe this is a no brainer but I haven't thought about it in these terms: Arm speed determines how close you want to be to your opponent.
For example I run cracker/sparky and definitely feel the need to be mid range.
And I'm sure we've all experienced the terror of megatons up close.
TheGoreMagala
Member
Except for the poppers. That seems to be a very prevalent and smart design choice, to make sure each arm does something and is the best at something so that no one particular arm is faster. They're both ridiculously fast when punched with the cracker being slightly slower. They seem to slow down slightly the longer they travel and the recovery seems moderate so that's why they're not too crazily ahead of the others.
This is the easiest one to see in practice actually, if you throw them megawatt slightly before megaton "catches up" by the end of the path.
I'm still not super clear about what part of the animation is different for the different gloves, but it's interesting that your overall output might be different- especially for a build like Lucifers where he is really filling ever frame.
Preference based for sure but also, at the top, very critcally also counter-based, which you alluded to at the same time.
In other words, if something is really excelling and someone is consistently getting a lot of wins with it, the task doesn't become "find the thing that is objectively superior to that one in a vacuum," it's "find the one that specifically beats that other one." Because then they can't count on it to win. So if say it's discovered that Blorb is really particularly great at countering one thing, it will be worth using Blorb in your lineup to either use when encountering, or discourage the picking of that thing- even if you'd never have considered using it if we were starting from scratch.
This is part of the balance proposition of the game. In fact, a fairly simple equation can be offered: the longer we see that these counter-picks are possible and there is no "this must be on every high level player's bar to compete," the better balance the game has. If the answer were "everyone use electric" or "everyone only use poppers" or "everyone only use bubb" then it would be obvious to the competitors at the highest levels of play and we wouldn't be having an ongoing discussion about it at all- just a resigned kind of "welp, can't wait for them to nerf X."
Again, I'm not saying the game IS balanced- I still think it's just way too early to tell. Tomorrow, we could discover that Ram Ram / Thunderbird Ribbon Girl is completely unstoppable in all matchups somehow and it's just an obvious shift in the meta where everyone has to play that or counter it specifically, or you're out of luck. But we're not seeing that yet, and there's a pretty decent variety of, well, stuff represented in high ranked play at the moment. Which I think is cool.
You'd also probably want to factor in recovery time since that's what would cause you to get punished. If an Arm has low recovery time you can get closer without worrying as much about a counter punch.
Since I don't feel like counting frames, I'll assume your calculations are correct. But if the difference in speed between... say the Sparky and Bubb are so slight that you can't see a significant difference or even tell them apart until you hit ~7 seconds of straight punching, the advantage in minimal. Factor in online latency and it's even less of a factor. I don't care how low some may think the latency is (it's actually not very low), it's more than the difference in Arm speed between elements.
Moondrop said:
I think he means everything ELSE you've tested, haha.
Moondrop, I came around on Crackers and love them now. Knockdown on something that fast firing is a joy.
Also...
*sigh*
It pains me to say this but Skillshot may not actually suck. I'm sort of starting to get it.
You aren't aiming for the targets- you're aiming for the enemy, curving through the targets. That's the "skillshot."
This made me think about which arms would be the best for it in a different way, and really hone my wide grabs.
I may have been wrong :[
TheGoreMagala
Member
I'm convinced v ball teaches how to deal with aerial opponents
Also Lucifer's pick for the triple Bubb is genius because I think by default all of Kid Cobra's arms are already larger than those of most other characters.
V Ball is rigged, I swear the ball touches the other sides floor a dozen times and doesn't trigger and as soon as its anywhere near the floor on my end it goes off! And don't get me started on the ball randomly dropping as soon as it inches to my side when the timer runs out! I keep it on their side and as soon as it just passes that net to my side, poof! And Hoops is just as bad, all you have to do is grab grab grab but that's no fun at all! I don't want to grab and I don't want to be grabbed! Delete grabbing!
Are you setting the ball before you spike it?
Also, I punch a lot in Hoops. Setting up a 3-point rush from way out is a good point spike.
BravesCountry
Banned
I hit Snake Park two games in a row in ranked against a Master Mummy which took away a ton of my speed advantage, was able to get him the second time around but it was extremely frustrating seeing the same level after hitting rematch lol.
I've never had the slightest trouble with V-ball. Pick the fastest or widest-reach (retorcher and its relatives) weapon in your loadout and go to town. Spam to get it out of your side of the court, shoot as soon as it gets remotely near the net, dodge quick to make sure you're always parallel to the ball when it's on the other guy's side.
Of course, i never got as far as V-ball with Helix, so...
Of course, i never got as far as V-ball with Helix, so...
TheGoreMagala
Member
Keep in mind guys my estimates are when using two of the same weapons and firing the reserve when the primary reaches max distance. If your set up uses two different arms I suppose you can request me to simply fire one arm as fast as possible in ten seconds and I'll tell you the fire rate of a single particular glove.
I will kiiiiinda concede that it doesn't belong in Ranked Play. It basically forces a completely different type of gameplay and strategy than any other map, which isn't particularly good for competition.
It's fun tho
DeuceGamer
Member
I absolutely hate the skate park level.
TheGoreMagala
Member
Hawkian requested:
Megatons are 7/8 in 10 very strongly toward 8, so 42 - 48 PPM
Megawatts are VERY much so guaranteed 7 in 10 so 42 PPM
Megatons are 7/8 in 10 very strongly toward 8, so 42 - 48 PPM
Megawatts are VERY much so guaranteed 7 in 10 so 42 PPM
Oh shit I forgot to mention this. This is going in the tips post but just want to get it out there ASAP cause it's pretty glorious and good to learn early on.
Some of the high ranked players specifically DKL introduced me to the concept that if you do a short hop you immediately get a brief charge (enough to attack or dash then attack). Just tap jump, that's literally all there is to it, and you get a quick charge when you touch down.
This is the fastest way to get a charge and has a good number of potential applications, but it particularly shines when your opponent is in downed/wakeup state. By doing a "short hop charge" (SHC?) you can have your charge ready to go and arms ready to fire much closer to the moment they regain control out of wakeup. With perfect execution (and especially if the opponent is hampered movement-wise i.e. in a corner) you can potentially prevent them from ever recovering.
It's not always necessarily the best way to get your charge and the others still have legitimate uses, but it is extremely valuable and can be mixed into random motions to disguise what you are doing from opponents, raising your overall charge uptime. In my opinion this is a game-changing technique that you should start practicing right away!
If an opponent is really taking liberal use of this technique during a match and you notice is, a counter is to intentionally save your arms, wait for the jump and punish it, because they can't throw a punch to accomplish what they're trying to do. Also, in wakeup you can usually cover considerable ground and make it tougher to tag you on recover.
We are a bit torn on whether or not this is intentional design or a slight oversight that can be taken advantage of. From a design standpoint, what I think is happening is this: ifi you hit the ground from the air without having thrown a punch in the air, you get one of these quick charges. So by just hopping on the ground you're doing the shortest possible version of this "freebie" charge, and thus you get a charge from neutral that is quicker animation-wise than any of the other options.
Some of the high ranked players specifically DKL introduced me to the concept that if you do a short hop you immediately get a brief charge (enough to attack or dash then attack). Just tap jump, that's literally all there is to it, and you get a quick charge when you touch down.
This is the fastest way to get a charge and has a good number of potential applications, but it particularly shines when your opponent is in downed/wakeup state. By doing a "short hop charge" (SHC?) you can have your charge ready to go and arms ready to fire much closer to the moment they regain control out of wakeup. With perfect execution (and especially if the opponent is hampered movement-wise i.e. in a corner) you can potentially prevent them from ever recovering.
It's not always necessarily the best way to get your charge and the others still have legitimate uses, but it is extremely valuable and can be mixed into random motions to disguise what you are doing from opponents, raising your overall charge uptime. In my opinion this is a game-changing technique that you should start practicing right away!
If an opponent is really taking liberal use of this technique during a match and you notice is, a counter is to intentionally save your arms, wait for the jump and punish it, because they can't throw a punch to accomplish what they're trying to do. Also, in wakeup you can usually cover considerable ground and make it tougher to tag you on recover.
We are a bit torn on whether or not this is intentional design or a slight oversight that can be taken advantage of. From a design standpoint, what I think is happening is this: ifi you hit the ground from the air without having thrown a punch in the air, you get one of these quick charges. So by just hopping on the ground you're doing the shortest possible version of this "freebie" charge, and thus you get a charge from neutral that is quicker animation-wise than any of the other options.
Kudo
Member
For people interested, Conan did skit with ARMS:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8S0X8U-6no
Thread for discussions as celebs get their own threads:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=241592244
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8S0X8U-6no
Thread for discussions as celebs get their own threads:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=241592244
QuixoticNeutral
Member
I noticed the tap-jump charge with Helix when I was learning him for GP but never thought to check it on the other characters, as I thought it was just a workaround for Helix to give him a jump-into-charge since holding the jump button stretches him out into the tower.
This works with Min Min's back-dash as well (and I was already using it earlier today to follow up on knockdowns just like you described), but there, too, I thought it was a character-specific mechanic and not something I thought to try with anyone else. It lands quicker than a tap-jump but comes at the expense of extending your distance from the opponent. Now that I look at it again, it's absolutely a consequence of the same system, a momentary charge when you land.
Indeed, my first reaction to this system was Ninjara's air dash teleport; I noticed that if I did it right before hitting the ground, I seemed to have my charge right away (though I kept holding the dash button not realizing it was unnecessary). Now I know that the height was irrelevant, but it was the fact that I hadn't thrown a punch in the air. A quick test though determined though that the best possible execution of Ninjaras air dash is still a longer animation chain than the SHC.
Elfforkusu
Member
This level 6 AI is kicking my ass. Cheating bullshit.
Any exploits? I don't think I'm getting better fighting these things, just learning cooldown timings
Any exploits? I don't think I'm getting better fighting these things, just learning cooldown timings
Yup
TheGoreMagala
Member
GUYS
ARMS UPDATE
Edit: False alarm? Maybe they'll update after maintenance?
ARMS UPDATE
Edit: False alarm? Maybe they'll update after maintenance?
I will kiiiiinda concede that it doesn't belong in Ranked Play. It basically forces a completely different type of gameplay and strategy than any other map, which isn't particularly good for competition.
It's fun tho
That's exactly why it is good for competition.
Maps shouldn't all be the same. It's why Dota and League are so damn boring, but something like Broodwar is so amazing. So many different maps all forcing different playstyles.
I ultimately ended going for traditional controls since I want to play anywhere and everywhere, I can't really play with motion during break at work you know.
Terrible_Majesty
Member
I can't play online either, which stinks because I'm on my way to level 9 ranking
This game has exceeded my expectations. It. It only reminds me of super punch out, but one of my favourite games of all time, metal combat (battleclash 2)
This game has exceeded my expectations. It. It only reminds me of super punch out, but one of my favourite games of all time, metal combat (battleclash 2)
TheGoreMagala
Member
Requested by Hawkian:
Hydra, 11 in 10 (it was close but the time stopped at 11, I might do that now to confirm very close numbers), 66 PPM.
Charged damage: 120 ALWAYS regardless how many hit
Uncharged damage for individual hit: 80
Uncharged damage if two bullets in one punch hit: 80 + 40
Hydra, 11 in 10 (it was close but the time stopped at 11, I might do that now to confirm very close numbers), 66 PPM.
Charged damage: 120 ALWAYS regardless how many hit
Uncharged damage for individual hit: 80
Uncharged damage if two bullets in one punch hit: 80 + 40
TheGoreMagala
Member
Hawkian:
Slamamander the wind one: 11 in 10, 66 PPM
Slapamander the fire one: 10 in 10 60 PPM
Slamamander the wind one: 11 in 10, 66 PPM
Slapamander the fire one: 10 in 10 60 PPM
So good.
Masked Man
I said wow
Anecdotal proof that I'm improving: I plowed through the first half of GP7 without dropping a set!
What I wouldn't give for a Twintelle amiibo to pose next to my Bayonetta amiibos <3
What I wouldn't give for a Twintelle amiibo to pose next to my Bayonetta amiibos <3
Golgo 13
The Man With The Golden Dong
Need some friendly advice on if I should get this game.
I've been playing fighting games since Street Fighter 2 in arcades but have really burned out on all the recent output from Capcom (SF5 characters did nothing for me, any of them, and that's what I need to feel connected to a fighting game -- a character I love), and never really cared for Mortal Kombat/Netherrealms style of play. Probably put 500 hours into the last fighting game I played (Super SSF4) and I'm not adverse to the genre. I'm just worried I'll find this game gimmicky and get bored quickly.
Do you guys think I should give it a shot? I just want something really fresh and appealing -- something to rekindle my love for the genre.
I've been playing fighting games since Street Fighter 2 in arcades but have really burned out on all the recent output from Capcom (SF5 characters did nothing for me, any of them, and that's what I need to feel connected to a fighting game -- a character I love), and never really cared for Mortal Kombat/Netherrealms style of play. Probably put 500 hours into the last fighting game I played (Super SSF4) and I'm not adverse to the genre. I'm just worried I'll find this game gimmicky and get bored quickly.
Do you guys think I should give it a shot? I just want something really fresh and appealing -- something to rekindle my love for the genre.
Poltergust
Member
When I finally played through GP4 and 5, I thought people were exaggerating the difficulty. I managed to get through those with not too many problems (I even beat Hedlok on the first try, which I never have done before!).
But GP6? Holy crap. The last four fights alone took me over 3 hours. I've never seen Master Mummy dodge Sparkies like that before, and Max Brass and Hedlok were total pains with all the explosions. Spring Man's shockwave ability is pretty useless against Hedlok, too.
I hope GP7 isn't nearly as much of a difficulty spike. My poor fingers are sore right now from the motion controls.
But GP6? Holy crap. The last four fights alone took me over 3 hours. I've never seen Master Mummy dodge Sparkies like that before, and Max Brass and Hedlok were total pains with all the explosions. Spring Man's shockwave ability is pretty useless against Hedlok, too.
I hope GP7 isn't nearly as much of a difficulty spike. My poor fingers are sore right now from the motion controls.
Terrible_Majesty
Member
I'm using the pro controller. I would not win a single online match or even offline with motion controls
ryanofcall
Member
I beat the Grand Prix with all the Characters on level 4. And I got
What does the little + sign do next to an arm except for telling me I got the same arm in "get arms" twice?
Nothing. Nothing at all
What does the little + sign do next to an arm except for telling me I got the same arm in "get arms" twice?