AgentOtaku
Member
curious, why?
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As a lifelong (but merely casual) Street Fighter fan, don't feel like I have a place
- Thread starter AgentOtaku
- Start date
curious, why?
The problem here is that tons of causal players don't WANT to put the time into the game to have FGC skills. They just want to boot it up for a couple hours a week at most, mess around in some singleplayer modes, appreciate the art and tactile feedback, and occasionally screw around with their friends.
I feel like too many people don't realize this is how millions of people have enjoyed Street Fighter probably since SFII. Everyone who buys the game shouldn't be expected to get competitive at it, but simply to have fun.
This is why I think multiplayer communities should be split up not just by skill, but also level of dedication. The really competitive players should be segregated from the recreational players.
DryEyeRelief
Member
A funny consequence of Street Fighter being the most popular fighter is that there are a large amount of players who know what they're doing.
If you desire climb the ranks of an online fighter, so you can feel like a big fish, I would suggest going to a smaller pond.
If you desire climb the ranks of an online fighter, so you can feel like a big fish, I would suggest going to a smaller pond.
Capcom fucked up big time with SFV. Not because it's lacking SP stuff, but because the MP is crap. The so called Ranked is nothing else than random matches against people of all levels, but with points. I can see how noobs would get discouraged to play when they are facing people that are far better than them all the time. And when they ask, the FGC tells they're pussies for not enduring it.
Nobody should endure it. People should be playing people on their level and have fun and then improve over time. It shouldn't be a grind in any way. You want to have the chance to play against people of all levels? Play BL, Casuals, but not Ranked. Sadly Capcom is a crap company and won't fix their garbage game. Which is very sad, because at its core, SFV is second to none.
Add a bazillion SP modes to the game and you won't have any of the real problems fixed. Of yeah, maybe a lot of people that don't like fighting games would be happier, but is it really what you want? Wouldn't it be better for everybody to have an enviroment where playing the real game is pleasant for everyone, despite their skill and experience? I guess not, we will continue accepting that casuals are those afraid to play the real game for another generation.
Nobody should endure it. People should be playing people on their level and have fun and then improve over time. It shouldn't be a grind in any way. You want to have the chance to play against people of all levels? Play BL, Casuals, but not Ranked. Sadly Capcom is a crap company and won't fix their garbage game. Which is very sad, because at its core, SFV is second to none.
Add a bazillion SP modes to the game and you won't have any of the real problems fixed. Of yeah, maybe a lot of people that don't like fighting games would be happier, but is it really what you want? Wouldn't it be better for everybody to have an enviroment where playing the real game is pleasant for everyone, despite their skill and experience? I guess not, we will continue accepting that casuals are those afraid to play the real game for another generation.
Arc fighters are the absolute worst things to recommend to casual players. I've been playing fighting games since SF2 created the genre, and I still feel overwhelmed with the "systems" that go into Arc games.
Trying to learn those games can be a nightmare for people not hardcore into fighters.
On a gameplay level, SFV is waaay more casual friendly. Unfortunately, it's modes and offerings don't support those players very much, and I worry about when/if that's going to change. Hell, I'm even getting frustrated at the game's unbalanced matchmaking at this point.
Well, putting aside that the leagues most likely don't map 1:1, matchmaking is still messed up in SFV big time. You can be a really high rank and still get 80% of your matches against people who you should have no business going against at lower ranks. If the game actually matched you up against people of your level for the most part, the playerbase would have a better time actually improving and learning.
I agree. That's what SF has been all about for me since 1992 or so. It's something I enjoy playing once in a while for fun, and that's about it. Like you said there are other games out there that compete for my limited time, and I'm most definitely not going to dedicate myself to becoming proficient at online play in SF (or any other competitive games to be perfectly honest). So, if Capcom does not eventually add a more "traditional" SF arcade single-experience to SFV, I'll just chalk it up to be yet another entry on the list of games I simply won't bother to play. And that's okay.
NinjaCoachZ
Member
It's been overtaken closely by Tekken and Super Smash Bros., but Street Fighter as a series is the third best-selling fighting franchise.
AgentOtaku
Member
Honestly it's a bit a both. I wish there was a better way of bracketing similar skillsets together as well as more stuff to do when you just don't want to play online
I would definitely not recommend that actually because...
This basically. I was gonna recommend to check out the demo for the last guilty gear game that was on psn, but apparently that's been removed. The demo was enough to tell me it is definitely not my kind of game. The systems were too overwhelming and I wasn't having any fun with it. I would definitely not recommend it for someone looking for a "casual" experience.
AgentOtaku
Member
Don't want to get too caught up in other deficiencies with the game, but yeah, it's staggering just how mediocre the actual online is in it...
Doesn't Mortal Kombat dwarf Street Fighter now?
RedAssedApe
Banned
The 1v1 nature is always gonna scare off the more casual from playing online.
DryEyeRelief
Member
I mean regarding the number of people wanting to git gud and wear the FGC like a badge of honor. It's why the #riseup marketing campaign worked so well. It's also why there are a number of neogaf posters being antagonistic with anyone who have no desire to live a KaneBlueRiver lifestyle.
I guess I'm at fault for this too because I automatically defaulted to saying Street Fighter is the most popular because of tournaments.
I am around the same age as the OP (just a tad younger). I know, I suck at the game too...I just play casuals and sometimes I win some matches against Gold and Super Silver players: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7_JvajzFtY&t=7m , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXVMv5GEEHk&t=3m , and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZjIdEG1H2A&t=5m
Also I play with my friend IRL. We give each other hints and tips on how to improve... This is how we are getting better at the game, even as casuals.
Also Neogaf's community is really nice gives you tips as well.
Also I play with my friend IRL. We give each other hints and tips on how to improve... This is how we are getting better at the game, even as casuals.
Also Neogaf's community is really nice gives you tips as well.
Yeah, I played ranked for the first time yesterday and went, if I were to guess, about 5-60. It's pretty hard to learn everything or have fun when the only people playing are so much better than you. I'm not a complete noob either, I can do all the motions, understand the basic metagame and concepts, cancels, frame traps, crossups, v-system, etc. I'm finding it basically impossible to get better playing survival where the first ~25 rounds are worthless AI that teach you bad habits or get my ass kicked on ranked.
My experience is probably a bit unique as I have to borrow my roommates PS4 to play, so the opportunities I have to practice are extremely limited.
My experience is probably a bit unique as I have to borrow my roommates PS4 to play, so the opportunities I have to practice are extremely limited.
UcchedavÄda
Member
Don't bother with survival to improve your game. It's completely useless. If you want to practice vs the AI, then unfortunately the best way at the moment is to go do the training room, disable regenerating health / bars, and put the dummy on AI mode. It's not as nice as being able to play proper best-of-3 matches vs an AI, but it's MUCH better than survival.
Of course, an even better option is to try to find people around your own level, and play 1v1 lobbies with them. You can either try ranked or you can just make a lobby and see who joins. Once you find somebody, and they are on the same platform as you, then send them friend-request and ask if they want to run sets. That was my strategy when I first picked up SSFIV:AE/USFIV, and I ended up with a bunch of friends around my own level that I could play matches with just about any time. Unfortunately, CFN makes this harder, but it should still be doable.
Auto-Reply
Member
Good post, feel the same way!
I think I'm too used to SFV, playing SF4 isn't really that fun now.
Make some casual friends and play. SFV fucked up big time, but at the same time the market for fighting games has actually changed. My perspective is obviously a bit skewed, but the features competitive players want and casual players want don't coexist at all, and spending the money to please everybody isn't always the option. "But Mortal Kombat did it." Actually the competitive and online features for MKX were so bad they got overhauled in a complete relaunch. Casual fans got a lot of it, but boy some other things did not go over well for the online and competitive crowd.
It's weird. We're due for a feature shake up soon though. I'd expect things like arcade modes to die out in favor of more casual online group modes, vs AI to start being a training or "event" type thing, etc, more focus on engagement with spectating and alternate online modes, whatever. I hope the casual crowd can get down with that type of direction.
It's weird. We're due for a feature shake up soon though. I'd expect things like arcade modes to die out in favor of more casual online group modes, vs AI to start being a training or "event" type thing, etc, more focus on engagement with spectating and alternate online modes, whatever. I hope the casual crowd can get down with that type of direction.
AgentOtaku
Member
I am around the same age as the OP (just a tad younger). I know, I suck at the game too...I just play casuals and sometimes I win some matches against Gold and Super Silver players: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7_JvajzFtY&t=7m , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXVMv5GEEHk&t=3m , and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZjIdEG1H2A&t=5m
Also I play with my friend IRL. We give each other hints and tips on how to improve... This is how we are getting better at the game, even as casuals.
Also Neogaf's community is really nice gives you tips as well.
these are great!, thanks
NinjaCoachZ
Member
Getting close. MK is at 35 million, SF at 38 million. X definitely outsold V and probably the vanilla version of IV last I checked. Not quite dwarfed yet.
I just sorta chimed in on the SFV character update thread but thought I'd reach out to see if anyone else out there feels this way
followed up by...
Feel the same way. Says it all about Capcom inability to attract new players, when they had one of the most noob friendly SF in decades and they cannot keep even dedicate ones. Sad, since it means its going the same way as SFIIIts.
DryEyeRelief
Member
But Ultimax did it
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
Capcom's pushing away of the casual types eventually going to cost Street Fighter its head.
Arguably that's already happened.
Arguably that's already happened.
This model is proven in other competitive games, so I don't think that's the issue. It's not like you see less dedicated LoL or CS:GO players complain about a lack of content. However, it's really going to come down to how developers execute such changes and I have zero faith in any existing fighting game developer to get that even remotely right. Any change is going to be slow and excruciatingly painful, especially since existing developers are going to loathe moving away from their existing arcade revenue -- but at this point, they don't really have much of a choice as arcades are dying a slow death even in Japan.
Mr. Nice_Guy
Member
Same with me OP. I played SFV for a bit when it came out, enjoyed online quite a bit but I'm still just in the competent casual skill range. Decided to come back recently and it was a blood bath, and aside from that there isn't much for me to do with the game. Which is a shame because I really do love the mechanics. Happily I do have some friends to play with online here and there, but I do miss more single player elements like MKX had that kept me coming back for a long while.
DryEyeRelief
Member
I don't think fighting games as a genre are popular enough to accommodate a shift like that.
Can you imagine a new fighting game ip getting as much attention as Overwatch?
Not really. The netcode for the game is pretty not great, and online competitive modes are all entirely worthless. What kept the competitive scene going for that game was entirely grassroots events.
When I say competitive features we want I mean netcode that is good enough to be taken seriously, a ranking system that is robust and actually carries some type of weight, social integration built into the game so it's easier to arrange stuff, adjustable competitive mode for online events, good outside spectating, it just goes on.
I can't think of a single fighting game that has this. So like, SFV screwed over the single player base while actually not giving competitive players any online features worth a damn. Why I expect there to be a feature shake up on both fronts at some point in the not so distant future. Need a better way to have worthwhile online features, need it to be easier to integrate casual players into those features who don't always want to enter into competitive game modes. Fighting games are at some weird point where the features on all fronts are absolutely ancient and just kinda shitty. Arcade mode will always end up kinda shitty to anybody investing decent time in, the current online modes don't facilitate much outside of people who want to put decent time in.
As many people already pointed out, Guilty Gear isn't exactly your beginner friendly type of fighter.
However, the tutorial is much better at explaining basics that cover all fighting games. My only issue is that they explain this and one system from GG and the other explanations are in the mission mode, which doesn't explain everything with the same amount of detail as the tutorial.
I don't know if they will add more tutorials over time, but it's a great effort so far.
That's a problem with the genre that isn't going away anytime soon. Some Street Fighter fans were actually disappointed by how "easy" they made the game lol. Oh and let's not forget the FGC favorite piece of advice: "git gud."
We just need new games that break some of the conventions held by the long running series. Smash was a good step except it was too original and too different to give the same feel.
I think my main problem was the execution barrier. I'm currently at a point where I sometimes can compete with my two experienced friends (who are my only friends that still like fighting games) especially if they're not using their mains. Even though one of them still feels offended when I play against him because "I don't play properly."
I haven't bought any current fighting games though, I kinda want to get into all of them at the same time despite not having easy access to them. As for SFV specifically I'll wait on it for a year or so.
We just need new games that break some of the conventions held by the long running series. Smash was a good step except it was too original and too different to give the same feel.
I think my main problem was the execution barrier. I'm currently at a point where I sometimes can compete with my two experienced friends (who are my only friends that still like fighting games) especially if they're not using their mains. Even though one of them still feels offended when I play against him because "I don't play properly."
I haven't bought any current fighting games though, I kinda want to get into all of them at the same time despite not having easy access to them. As for SFV specifically I'll wait on it for a year or so.
I bought SFV during the 10$ sale and this is precisely the reason why I didn't even open it yet. I'm a casual fighting game player at best, so I expect that I would have a miserable time with SFV. Getting wrenched can be fun if the match was still somewhat entertaining, but I expect that every fight would just end up in me getting knocked out after 10 seconds, leaving me with no opportunity to actually get somewhat better.
pixelpatch
Junior Member
I have to agree, its full of hardcores (which isnt a bad thing) but sometimes I just wanna play games casually
ShinMaruku
Member
My whole thing is fighting games are in a interesting place, potential for modest growth and a really robust scene, HOWEVER, the main bottleneck with how these games progress is how they teach you, nobody involved be it developers, pros, tourney people or scene elders know how to bridge that gap and until there is a better way to teach people outside of relying on some factors outside your control (For example you can live in area with a dead scene, you can't get or afford good net for netplay) to smooth over the rough patches.
Fighting games rely on you learning how to play them decently to get the most out of them, but to get there they put many stumbling blocks that retard growth some of this shit is paradoxical but it's how things have been so nobody wants to change shit.
First you must learn the inputs of the moves, then the timings,then you must learn ranges and movement, then you must learn your character the put it all together then you must learn match ups, then congratulations you are at base level now you must learn game plans and how to juggle all of that while figuring out your opponent, that is asking far too much of the lay person, anybody who thinks things as they are now and can grow the scene at a rate they want are either deceitful or are fools, one or the other.
Ideally this can be allivietated if there is a diverse enough player pool that all skill levels are properly represented where when playing people of like skill you can naturally level up or stay content, but some would argue with a barebones non online component the player base is small and is dominated by the skilled people who crush and run away new blood then bitch about the lack of new blood or bitch about how some people play. Those mindsets are bizzare but not the topic of this thread.
So I feel what the OP is saying nobody around the level to play with, I don't think it's because you are not what Capcom is looking for, I think they have no idea what they are doing and are making a game for a phantom audience, they can't teach their own games, they are too tied to dogma, until something changes this will remain niche.
That said the implosion of esports could be amusing on this end.
Fighting games rely on you learning how to play them decently to get the most out of them, but to get there they put many stumbling blocks that retard growth some of this shit is paradoxical but it's how things have been so nobody wants to change shit.
First you must learn the inputs of the moves, then the timings,then you must learn ranges and movement, then you must learn your character the put it all together then you must learn match ups, then congratulations you are at base level now you must learn game plans and how to juggle all of that while figuring out your opponent, that is asking far too much of the lay person, anybody who thinks things as they are now and can grow the scene at a rate they want are either deceitful or are fools, one or the other.
Ideally this can be allivietated if there is a diverse enough player pool that all skill levels are properly represented where when playing people of like skill you can naturally level up or stay content, but some would argue with a barebones non online component the player base is small and is dominated by the skilled people who crush and run away new blood then bitch about the lack of new blood or bitch about how some people play. Those mindsets are bizzare but not the topic of this thread.
So I feel what the OP is saying nobody around the level to play with, I don't think it's because you are not what Capcom is looking for, I think they have no idea what they are doing and are making a game for a phantom audience, they can't teach their own games, they are too tied to dogma, until something changes this will remain niche.
That said the implosion of esports could be amusing on this end.
Mr. Nice_Guy
Member
That wouldn't solve a thing for a player like me though. I like playing a ton of different games, so I have no interest in more causal online groups or engagement with spectating. I don't need a shallow end to help me gradually get into the more competitive scene; I just want modes I can enjoy on my own, on my own time, like fighting games have almost always had up until recently. Arcade mode has never been shitty to me. Games with good single player content like Soul Calibur 2 and Tekken Tag Tournament 2 have entertained me plenty, a whole lot more than SFV has.
If had the same development and marketing budget and competence that Overwatch did? Sure. The genre is hamstrung by developers who don't know how to make a compelling multiplayer experience in 2016 -- getting the core mechanics right in this day and age is not nearly enough.
i'll play a new fighter online for a while if i really enjoy it, usually until it gets to the point where i can no longer compete due to other commitments, but for me they're almost strictly local mp with friends only - as they've always been. i don't get to play them as much as i'd like, but i have a lot more fun with them when i do.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
AgentOtaku
Member
Well put
zackmorris
Member
I don't think Guilty Gear is approachable for casuals at all. Xrd has some insanely deep mechanics and systems compared to a game like SF.
//ARCANUM
Member
The online community is super small from what I've noticed in general. I was playing the other night (around midnight CST) and I was waiting like 5 mins for a match, played a guy, he crushed me, I pressed to go again and he declined so I spent 5 more mins looking for a match then it matched me up with the SAME guy. Same thing happens, he crushes me, declines to play again and I waited 5 more minutes and guess what. SAME GUY third time in a row. Same outcome. I turned it off at that point. It felt like only me and this other guy were playing (and he was like 3 or more league ranks above me - I'm rookie). I'm trying real hard to get good at this game but stuff like this makes it tough.
Pyramid head
Banned
What if you don't want to be 'competitive'? What if you'd just like to play against people of a similar skill level for 'fun'? Except that isn't an option in SFV because the matchmaking is completely fucked and as someone who bounces between Super/Ultra Bronze rank, I get matched almost exclusively against Super Silver/Gold/Platinum players about 19 games out of 20.