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[Orayn]

GAF, I'm sure you know the drill when it comes to threads that revolve around religious bickering. The first post usually contains some controversial element that sends the whole thread into a death spiral of negativity and disagreements that go absolutely nowhere. Heck, we even have a "Theism vs. Atheism" thread that does away with the niceties and gets right to the arguments. With any luck, this thread won't be like that at all.

This thread is for asking questions and giving answers pertaining to GAFers' beliefs, particularly those of a moral, ethical, religious, or philosophical. It's a really broad topic, so there are a few things you need to keep in mind before posting.

• Don't ask loaded questions. These are generally condescending or facetious in nature, and either have a "built in" answer or are designed to make the answerer look bad.
• Answer from your own perspective. Don't jump in and try to give second or third-hand answers about what you think someone else believes.
• Be polite. This ties into not asking loaded questions, but it's much easier to have an interesting thread if we're generally being decent people to each other.
• Be efficient. I highly discourage "Gish gallop" style lines of questioning where you attempt to overwhelm someone with inquiries. Keep it short and to the point, please.
• Keep it strictly question-and-answer. Pretty much everything in your post should either be clearly marked as a question you want to ask other posters, or your own answer to a question. Snide remarks and off-topic content are a no-go.
• For the sake of clarity, try to quote the questions you're responding to. Similarly, if one of your own questions is directed at any particular group or belief, include that in the question.

And with that, we're ready to begin. I'll start us off with a question that pretty much everyone should have their own answer to.

Q: In terms of what you consider good and bad, what are humans naturally inclined to be, if we're naturally inclined toward anything at all?

 

[ghst]

theists, what can you tell me about your personal relationship with god that distances it from common-or-garden schizophrenia or some other chemical imbalance?

 

[Pollux]

theists, what can you tell me about your personal relationship with god that distances it from common-or-garden schizophrenia?

Did you even read the OP? loaded question that is designed to make whoever answers look bad.... because either we "hear" God and have a personal relationship and are thus crazy, or we don't and there is no personal relationship and then we have no reason to have faith.

Really dude? If this is what you were going to do you should have stayed in the bait thread...

 

[Haly]

Q: In terms of what you consider good and bad, what are humans naturally inclined to be, if we're naturally inclined toward anything at all?

Profit, first for themselves, then for their immediate social circle, and decreasing as people become further removed from the human in question. Can manifest itself as good or bad, but I think bad more often than good.

theists, what can you tell me about your personal relationship with god that distances it from common-or-garden schizophrenia or some other chemical imbalance?

Oh ghst.

 

[that1dude24]

in general, we're naturally inclined to further our own interests as a species and as individuals

 

[Atramental]

Subscribed. May this thread succeed where others have failed.

Tomorrow I'll probably have some questions I want to ask but in the mean time I have some reading I have to catch up on.

Edit:
I don't want to contribute to the bait thread so I'll respond to these two quotes here:

Read Siddhartha and the Tibetan book of the dead.

I'll order those books off of amazon as soon as possible.

Read this man http://buddhism.about.com/od/basicbuddhistteachings/a/buddhaatheism.htm

good place to start.

Thank you. I'll start reading this before I go to bed tonight.

 

[The Technomancer]

So this is a bit general, but for anyone who believes in free will I would be very interested in hearing their perspectives on our knowledge of how diseases and medicines and other chemicals seemingly modify a person's behavior and personality.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

So this is a bit general, but for anyone who believes in free will I would be very interested in hearing their perspectives on our knowledge of how diseases and medicines and other chemicals seemingly modify a person's behavior and personality.

Also brain damage.

 

[Count Dookkake]

So this is a bit general, but for anyone who believes in free will I would be very interested in hearing their perspectives on our knowledge of how diseases and medicines and other chemicals seemingly modify a person's behavior and personality.

Or anyone who believes in souls.

 

[truly101]

What exactly is intelligent design anyway? The idea that there is a god, but he let the natural world develop as science defines it? I know its not pure creationism.

 

[Lafiel]

Profit, first for themselves, then for their immediate social circle, and decreasing as people become further removed from the human in question. Can manifest itself as good or bad, but I think bad more often than good.

In general how you manifest that desire seems to depend on your own upbringing and environment - if you are bought up with good morals as well as a good environment; you tend to channel that inner desire in a positive way for yourself and others around you, from my personal experience anyway.

 

[Zaptruder]

Dear Theists,

when you guys talk about personal relationships with god, what exactly does that entail?

Do you literally hear his voice in your head? Or do you ask him for signs and then you see those signs the next day?

 

[Dice]

Q: In terms of what you consider good and bad, what are humans naturally inclined to be, if we're naturally inclined toward anything at all?

I think Maslow's hierarchy of needs is on the money. If there is a way of securing the whole triangle to everyone's benefit, they will do so. This is demonstrable in some perfectly well contented hunter-gatherer tribes. If available resources and systems mean they are in competition with others and one has to attain it at the expense of the other, they will try to be the one on top. This is visible in capitalism. I don't think it's really in our nature to stop 3/4 of the way up the triangle if that last 1/4 would keep someone else at the bottom 1/4 of theirs. I mean, maybe if their life and its connection to you is openly observable, but then at that point they are part of your triangle so it doesn't count.

 

[JGS]

Great concept.

Although I'm too sleepy to answer questions right now, will come back and work hard to avoid hostility in my questions or answers.

 

[cutmeamango]

Q: In terms of what you consider good and bad, what are humans naturally inclined to be, if we're naturally inclined toward anything at all?

Good op, hope some mod sactions the peace in this topic.

For the question:

That's pretty related to the debate of the existance of a human nature and inherent evil.
I for one believe we are animals like every other. And as animals, we are a species prone to inter-competitiveness. While socially structured, our rationality fleshes out our individualism (egoism).
Now about good or evil:
Considering that an evil act is one that presents a harmful outcome / diminish state of well being (physical or psychological) to a second being, I'd say we are inherently capable of evil, but not necessarily prone to.

 

[The Technomancer]

Dear Theists,

when you guys talk about personal relationships with god, what exactly does that entail?

Do you literally hear his voice in your head? Or do you ask him for signs and then you see those signs the next day?

From personal experience that one's going to produce a lot of different answers. One of the more common ones I've heard is a strong internal feeling that something is "right" or "wrong"

 

[Aika'svyse]

Men are inclined toward good, the flesh is however weak, but the spirit wants to do right

 

[Count Dookkake]

What exactly is intelligent design anyway? The idea that there is a god, but he let the natural world develop as science defines it? I know its not pure creationism.

It is creationism, but you're correct in that it is not pure. It is couched in jargon that sounds "scientific" to the ignorant.

 

[Air]

So this is a bit general, but for anyone who believes in free will I would be very interested in hearing their perspectives on our knowledge of how diseases and medicines and other chemicals seemingly modify a person's behavior and personality.

Also brain damage.

One way you could look at it would be like a driver with a car that doesn't work. The driver (soul) is inhibited by the car (body) which inhibits your will to make a decision.

Its like if your breaks aren't working and your speeding, you want to stop, but you can't because the vehicle is broken down.

That's one way of looking at it, I'll see if I can think of more. It's a tough, but interesting question.

 

[Pollux]

What exactly is intelligent design anyway? The idea that there is a god, but he let the natural world develop as science defines it? I know its not pure creationism.

I view it as God just guided evolution so we ended up where we are since evolving to such a level as humans have and to be self aware and all that as humans are...

 

[Mortrialus]

Q: In terms of what you consider good and bad, what are humans naturally inclined to be, if we're naturally inclined toward anything at all?

Good and bad are nebulous terms. The truth of the matter is that humans are social creatures. We live and die needing others. Human morality is driven by our desire for appreciation and acceptance of others, for better or for worse. I would think the best values are to increase human happiness as much as possible, and reducing human suffering as much as possible. Indeed, much of the basic outlines for human social behavior operate on this. Don't kill, don't steal, the minimum of what is needed to keep society together. Unfortunately, many of our social norms and laws move away from these values. The question is far to complex to answer with a simple "Humans are generally good. Or Humans are generally bad." I think it's safe to say humans generally want to be seen as good by others.

Edit: Is it just me or are Atheism vs. Theism side threads popping up more and more lately?

 

[Laughing Banana]

Hopefully in this thread all discussions can be held in a civil and calm manner, without any sides shooting disrespectful remarks towards another.

Although, I am sorry to say this OP, in all honesty I really doubt that it will happen: and the 1st reply of this thread is a good example why, hahaha.

 

[Orayn]

Good op, hope some mod sactions the peace in this topic.

I have PM'd EviLore, requesting the red-named overlords immediately destroy this thread if things get ugly.

To answer my own question for reference purposes...

Q: In terms of what you consider good and bad, what are humans naturally inclined to be, if we're naturally inclined toward anything at all?

From a humanist perspective, I believe that Rosseau was right. Humans are social primates, and our sense of empathy gives us the tendency not to treat each other with wanton cruelty. When humans are royal bastards to each other, it's generally not senseless, and often involves us having convinced ourselves that we're doing something good or necessary.

Hopefully in this thread all discussions can be held in a civil and calm manner, without any sides shooting disrespectful remarks towards another.

Although, I am sorry to say this OP, in all honesty I really doubt that it will happen: and the 1st reply of this thread is a good example why, hahaha.

I'm holding out some small shred of hope for a civil thread. God willing, right?

 

[TheKaeptain]

Dear Theists,

when you guys talk about personal relationships with god, what exactly does that entail?

Do you literally hear his voice in your head? Or do you ask him for signs and then you see those signs the next day?

I would bet it is the same thing Neil DeGrasse Tyson said he feels when he thinks about space. . Starts at like 5 mins in. He even thinks the same thing.

 

[Evolved1]

This is cliché but... do miracles still occur today? More specifically... do healing miracles occur? If not, why? If so, (this is the cliché bit) why not amputees or severe burn victims?

 

[la flama blanca]

Atheists, why can some of you be too argumentative as if you're trying to sell some sort of religion of your own?

 

[Raonak]

theists: what do some think of religious stories (from bible, qran, krishna books, etc) that have aspects that don't abide by the laws of physics, or contridict science/knowledge.

both: what is the major influence on your life that caused you to have/reject faith

 

[ghst]

Did you even read the OP? loaded question that is designed to make whoever answers look bad.... because either we "hear" God and have a personal relationship and are thus crazy, or we don't and there is no personal relationship and then we have no reason to have faith.

Really dude? If this is what you were going to do you should have stayed in the bait thread...

i'm asking what can you tell me about those voices which is enough to completely rewire your entire epistemological interpretation of the universe, rather than attribute them to one of the many scientifically grounded explanations based with a medically proven causality?

 

[GTP_Daverytimes]

Hopefully in this thread all discussions can be held in a civil and calm manner, without any sides shooting disrespectful remarks towards another.

Although, I am sorry to say this OP, in all honesty I really doubt that it will happen.

The first post already summarizes what will be repeated in this thread, Gaf has established itself as quite unwelcoming to anything or anyone religious.

 

[Korey]

Christians:

1) Were you indoctrinated by this religion since birth because your parents follow this religion, or did you become a Christian later in life?

2) If you were born in ancient Greece, do you think you would believe in Zeus with the same fervor you believe in God or would you be more or less critical?

3) Do you believe that the Bible is the word of God (ie it's perfect, infallible, exactly how it should be, not just written by man)?

4) Do you believe that some or more of the detailed stories in the Bible (Adam and Eve, Noah, etc) are metaphorical or do you believe all are literal?

5) If you think some are metaphorical, how do you determine which are metaphorical and which are literal? How do you reconcile the two?

6) If they are metaphorical, then why do you follow it as an actual religion and not just fables or stories meant to teach a moral lesson?

7) Have you ever seriously sat down by yourself and critically thought about your religion and why you believe it?

 

[Pollux]

theists: what do some think of religious stories (from bible, qran, krishna books, etc) that have aspects that don't abide by the laws of physics, or contridict science/knowledge.

both: what is the major influence on your life that caused you to have/reject faith

Religious stories---metaphors at best. they're just stories.

Christians:

1) Were you indoctrinated by this religion since birth because your parents follow this religion, or did you become a Christian later in life?

Yes, although lost my faith and have later come back to it.

2) Do you believe that the Bible is the word of God (ie it's perfect, infallible, exactly how it should be, not just written by man)?

No.

3) Do you believe that some or more of the detailed stories in the Bible (Adam and Eve, Noah, etc) are metaphorical or do you believe all are literal?

Metaphors or on par with the creation myths of every other civilization.

4) If you think some are metaphorical, how do you determine which are metaphorical and which are literal? How do you reconcile the two?

Old Testament is metaphorical when it comes to huge supernatural occurrences. New Testament, juries still out, but as I believe in the Devil I would say that things involving demons in the New Testament are real, since I believe in demons in real life, but water to wine...doubt it.

5) Have you ever seriously sat down by yourself and critically thought about your religion and why you believe it?

Yes

 

[truly101]

It is creationism, but you're correct in that it is not pure. It is couched in jargon that sounds "scientific" to the ignorant.

Well I'm not a bible literalist so I don't believe in the whole 7 days wahbang, welcome to earf. I've never thought the bible should be taken as literal fact. I've heard intelligent design as an alternative to creationism, but if its essentially the same thing....meh

 

[Daft_Cat]

So this is a bit general, but for anyone who believes in free will I would be very interested in hearing their perspectives on our knowledge of how diseases and medicines and other chemicals seemingly modify a person's behavior and personality.

I'd probably label myself a determinist (not in the religious sense)..but I'm not sure about the issue you're bringing up here.

Surely someone who believes in free will could also say that not everyone is always free all of the time; for example, when the mind is altered beyond that agent's control.

 

[The Technomancer]

Christians:

1) Were you indoctrinated by this religion since birth because your parents follow this religion, or did you become a Christian later in life?

2) Do you believe that the Bible is the word of God (ie it's perfect, infallible, exactly how it should be, not just written by man)?

3) Do you believe that some or more of the detailed stories in the Bible (Adam and Eve, Noah, etc) are metaphorical or do you believe all are literal?

4) If you think some are metaphorical, how do you determine which are metaphorical and which are literal? How do you reconcile the two?

5) Have you ever seriously sat down by yourself and critically thought about your religion and why you believe it?

Some of these feel a bit loaded, but you have some good overall points. I'm not sure if "indoctrinated" is the most neutral term you could have used...

I'd probably label myself a determinist (not in the religious sense)..but I'm not sure about the issue you're bringing up here.

Surely someone who believes in free will could also say that not everyone is always free all of the time; for example, when the mind is altered beyond that agent's control.

If the will is beholden to the mechanics of the mind then how "free" is it?

 

[Orayn]

Atheists, why can some of you be too argumentative as if you're trying to sell some sort of religion of your own?

On a certain level, the reasons for such arguments are the same: I simply don't fully understand how some parts of a theistic worldview work, and my arguments are a consequence of that. Believing, for example, that the Earth was created from nothing in six literal 24-hour days goes against everything I stand for. It discards knowledge we've acquired by the best methods currently known, in favor of a literal interpretation of a religious text from a pre-scientific time.

 

[crazy monkey]

Is atheism becoming cult?

 

[Count Dookkake]

Well I'm not a bible literalist so I don't believe in the whole 7 days wahbang, welcome to earf. I've never thought the bible should be taken as literal fact. I've heard intelligent design as an alternative to creationism, but if its essentially the same thing....meh

Sorry, but yeah, it is the exact same product, re-branded.

Look up the "Wedge strategy."

Is atheism becoming cult?

No.

 

[The Technomancer]

Is atheism becoming cult?

Atheism is definitely not a commune of rationally minded ubermensch, as much as some of its proponents would like to think otherwise.

 

[Orayn]

Is atheism becoming cult?

In its current incarnation, no. You can identify certain groups that share similar ideas, like the "New Atheists," but there's plenty of disagreement even among the prominent figures who are said to represent that movement. It's often said that trying to get atheists together is like herding cats, as atheism lends itself to critical thinking and discourages unquestioningly following anything.

 

[Air]

Christians:

1) Were you indoctrinated by this religion since birth because your parents follow this religion, or did you become a Christian later in life?

2) Do you believe that the Bible is the word of God (ie it's perfect, infallible, exactly how it should be, not just written by man)?

3) Do you believe that some or more of the detailed stories in the Bible (Adam and Eve, Noah, etc) are metaphorical or do you believe all are literal?

4) If you think some are metaphorical, how do you determine which are metaphorical and which are literal? How do you reconcile the two?

5) Have you ever seriously sat down by yourself and critically thought about your religion and why you believe it?

1. Not indoctrinated, I had a choice to abandon or follow whatever it is that I wanted.

2. No.

3. Depends on context. Chances are there was a flood sometime in the past, though not one to swallow the whole of the earth as we know it to be now, or whatev's.

4. Debate and see what evidence is there in favor and against. Determining which is literal and figurative depends on context too, some is poetry, some isn't etc. You have to do a lot of research and be well informed before you make a move.

5. I think about it all the time, and I do plenty of research on other perspectives, religions, ways of life. I try to critique everything I encounter to see if it can be made better, or has a truth value to it.

 

[Zaptruder]

From personal experience that one's going to produce a lot of different answers. One of the more common ones I've heard is a strong internal feeling that something is "right" or "wrong"

To be sure, I'm familiar with many of the tricks that our brains can play on us that make it seem as though something outside the ordinary is happening.

I just wanted to know what religious people on this board personally meant when they used that term.

But going off what you're saying, basically, it's an unjustified conviction that nonetheless has a high degree of certainty in the conviction?

Because I imagine feeling that it's 'wrong to kill', although a strong internal feeling, doesn't quite qualify as a 'personal relationship with god'. Or maybe it does?

 

[truly101]

Atheists, if I let you borrow something, will you bring it back to me as it was originally? I let a rapist borrow a CD of mine and it was all scratched in shit.

 

[Conciliator]

Q: In terms of what you consider good and bad, what are humans naturally inclined to be, if we're naturally inclined toward anything at all?

That's a great question. I'm a naturalist and a secular humanist full-stop, and consequently I believe that evolutionary psychology is the best descriptor of general human behavior. To put it simply, we are inclined towards self-interest, but that's just a little too simple - we're inclined to propagate our genes. That manifests itself in immensely complicated ways, many of which we probably don't understand, and beyond that the human condition is so odd and complex - and modern society is such an odd fit for that condition - that the behavior of any particular single human is potentially inexplicable. Collectives are largely predictable though, and the larger the group, the more their actions can be predicted(this is the only reason any kind of economics works at all, for example).

Lots of people do 'evil' things, but one of the many psychological comforts we have to do without as secular people is the idea that there's something profound, intangible and innate about people doing really shitty things. People do really shitty things either because it is in their best interest, or they mistakenly interpret to be in their best interest, or because someone else has found out how to manipulate the pre-consciousness instincts that attempt to determine if something is in their best interest.

This is the worst and most frustrating consequence of secularism on ethics: We can now choose to be aware of the impulses and instinct that drive us towards evil acts, and choose not to act on them. No no, that part's great. But, there's a dark side - if we maintain that self-evidence is a nonsensical defense of anything, and we should, we no longer have an obvious philosophical reason to altruistic.

TL;DR: We are inclined first towards successful propagation, secondly towards random absurdity, and beyond that nothing else of note. I can't reconcile altruism with naturalism.

 

[Orayn]

Atheists, if I let you borrow something, will you bring it back to me as it was originally? I let a rapist borrow a CD of mine and it was all scratched in shit.

Yes, but hound me about returning it because I'm forgetful. I still have the Space Wolves Omnibus my friend lent me in senior year of high school.

 

[AdventureRacing]

So this is a bit general, but for anyone who believes in free will I would be very interested in hearing their perspectives on our knowledge of how diseases and medicines and other chemicals seemingly modify a person's behavior and personality.

I actually find this very interesting and wish i could study it in more detail. I think alot of depends on the level of free will you're talking about. For example even when a drug changes a persons behaviour (like with dementia or any other number of mental illnesses) they are still capable of making decisions even if it isn't the usual one they would make.

So i guess the chemical balance and general workings of our brain influence the decisions we make but it isn't completely automated. Basically i think we have a limited amount of free will in essence. No doubt our decisions are influnced by the workings of our brain but i still think we are capable of making decisions and they aren't all automated.

So i guess from the perspective that free will means we can make decisions without any sort of restraint whatsoever than we probably don't have free will.

Also brain damage.

My ability to make decisions is based off the ability of my brain to perform its usual function. Any changes to the usual balance can impact my ability to make decisions. That doesn't mean that i never had the ability to make decisions.

 

[Zaptruder]

In its current incarnation, no. You can identify certain groups that share similar ideas, like the "New Atheists," but there's plenty of disagreement even among the prominent figures who are said to represent that movement. It's often said that trying to get atheists together is like herding cats, as atheism lends itself to critical thinking and discourages unquestioningly following anything.

Hmm... not quite sure about this. Critical thinking advocates naturally align along the path of Free Thinking (that is they do so independently, arriving at similar or same values without explicit indoctrination; although it's possible to be explicitly indoctrinated into it).

Also secular humanism is a popular philosophy for atheists to align automatically to - if you don't believe in gods, you believe in the power of the people to make the changes that will better their conditions.

But these are philosophies and alignments that are absent of doctrine - the positions are debated, discussed, arrived at, and from time to time, modified and moved on from.

But the reason atheism is considered as herding cats is simply because there isn't a common ground outside of disbelief in religion. Certainly, not all atheists are critical thinkers or particularly smart (even though we'd like to think those traits define us - they do not).

 

[perryfarrell]

Dedicated OT Religion thread please. GAF OT is 60% religious bickering already, let's not make it 90%

 

[Laughing Banana]

Atheists, if I let you borrow something, will you bring it back to me as it was originally? I let a rapist borrow a CD of mine and it was all scratched in shit.

I apologize to the OP due to his spirit of a creating a civil discussion and thus a swearing word may not be appropriate but,

What the fuck?

 

[Lafiel]

I apologize to the OP due to his spirit of a creating a civil discussion and thus a swearing word may not be appropriate but,

What the fuck?

It's a joke referring to this thread - http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=455119

 

[Laughing Banana]

It's a joke referring to this thread - http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=455119

Oh I see.