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[Arsic]

We are living in good times for ARPG enthusiasts. Last Epoch just launched which spurred me to make this thread and in some ways discuss the mixed reception of Diablo 4.

For context my favorite ARPG is still Diablo 2. I did NOT play this growing up and my exposure to it started with Resurrected. I play this game multiple times a week. I’m not even loot chasing or trying to achieve anything on the ladder. I just boot it up and I have fun. It’s familiar, cozy, and gives me immediate dopamine.

Often Diablo 2 is cited as the best ARPG for many or at least the best Diablo game. Which made me ask myself, “Why?” This game is played to this day religiously by many, and it has no content support. The end game, if you can even call it that, is repetitive and lack luster. Especially when you compare it to modern ARPGs. It has very limited viable skill trees and builds, and in general isn’t massive in its scope.

Yet today if you don’t launch your new ARPG with at least 30-50% of the content path of exile has to do, then your game is a failure to the fans of the genre it seems.

Diablo 4 was originally touted to be more like Diablo 2. I genuinely think this is true. It launched with its main appeal being the campaign, visuals, and easy to get into and play. It’s easy to digest and the end game even at launch had more than D2. Now with each season it keeps sprucing things up even if some are a bit of a miss. Itemization is being reworked. I see people also asking for skills to be redone and the skill trees to be far larger. This makes me wonder then why do “Diablo 2 is the best Diablo” advocates not like the skill tree here?

I for one love Path of Exile but find it overwhelming at times. It’s great it has as much content as it does but it also demands a lot from the player to ever sink their teeth into.

Which is why Last Epoch has currently impressed me so much. While the campaign is total dog shit everything else feels well thought out and fun. It feels more of a natural progression to Diablo 2&3 than PoE or D4 is.

My question to you is what is the best ARPG and why? What are the key aspects for a ARPG to be successful? Do you prefer insane depth like PoE, or just focused fun like a Diablo 2? Or is the middle ground LE hit the sweet spot?

 

[Alexios]

Outdated clickety click clicks (with bad gamepad controls on top nowadays). I want a game of this structure that plays more like something like Sengoku Basara with fun combat and special moves. Games like Dark Alliance had the right idea back in the day but that style never went far.

Lost Ark seemed to have the right idea but I guess it's the usual Korean p2w grindfest on top of a nice stylish base? Anyway until they actually evolve beyond Diablo 1's legacy I'll prefer to play ARPGs like the Souls, Monster Hunter, Darksiders and Zelda series, stuff with good gameplay.

Games like Ys Origins & Oath in Felghana are also pretty good takes, but I'm not as fond of later entries in the series. I suppose Japanese devs just do ARPG gameplay better in general given these, the above and games like Nier too (as well as Yakuza save for the new turn based games).

 

[Arsic]

Outdated clickety click clicks (with bad gamepad controls on top nowadays). I want a game of this structure that plays more like something like Sengoku Basara with fun combat and special moves. Games like Dark Alliance had the right idea back in the day but that style never went far.

Lost Ark seemed to have the right idea but I guess it's the usual Korean p2w grindfest on top of a nice stylish base? Anyway until they actually evolve beyond Diablo 1's legacy I'll prefer to play ARPGs like the Souls, Monster Hunter, Darksiders and Zelda series, stuff with good gameplay.

Games like Ys Origins & Oath in Felghana are also pretty good takes, but I'm not as fond of later entries in the series. I suppose Japanese devs just do ARPG gameplay better in general given these, the above and games like Nier too (as well as Yakuza save for the new turn based games).

I feel like we as gamers need to draw a line between ARPGs like Diablo , and then just action RPGs with hack and slash combat. They play nothing alike, and that’s intentional, but get lumped into the same genre all the same.

Maybe IARPG is what it needs to be since Diablo likes are Isometric view games?

 

[Sub_Level]

Not a fan. I like pure turn based and pure action. The in-between not so much.

FF7 Remake series does have pretty fun aspects about it. But not enough to make me buy it even tho I have a ps5 lol. I like games like Bloodborne and Nier Tomato but Im not sure they qualify? Like they technically have different builds and stat progression, but I think they are a far cry from something like Diablo or Ys.

 

[DownLikeBCPowder]

I love Diablo, Diablo II, and Titan Quest. Those are probably my favorite of this style. Grim Dawn is also very good. Don't care for Diablo III at all and Diablo IV didn't entice me.

I don't think it really needs endless content and things such as that, so much as a secure base and foundation. I love the core gameplay fundamentals of the aforementioned games as well as their presentation it all just works. To me they are timeless and I will probably be more likely to still be playing these games in another 10 or 20 years versus whatever the new arpg is that's in style at that time.

The original Diablo is probably my favorite of all time if I had to choose because it's just the best complete package for me. I like the slower and more methodical gameplay, even if there are things that I believe could be changed about it for the better as well as the very grim setting and presentation. I like the graphics better in this than Diablo II if you can believe it. Diablo is just the best and is timeless for me.

 

[Edgelord79]

Outdated clickety click clicks (with bad gamepad controls on top nowadays). I want a game of this structure that plays more like something like Sengoku Basara with fun combat and special moves. Games like Dark Alliance had the right idea back in the day but that style never went far.

Lost Ark seemed to have the right idea but I guess it's the usual Korean p2w grindfest on top of a nice stylish base? Anyway until they actually evolve beyond Diablo 1's legacy I'll prefer to play ARPGs like the Souls, Monster Hunter, Darksiders and Zelda series, stuff with good gameplay.

Games like Ys Origins & Oath in Felghana are also pretty good takes, but I'm not as fond of later entries in the series. I suppose Japanese devs just do ARPG gameplay better in general given these, the above and games like Nier too (as well as Yakuza save for the new turn based games).

Ya I completely disagree. Prefer the games the OP mentioned.

 

[LectureMaster]

Diablo 2.

The dark bleak vibe, theemorable music, the nostalgia, the in depth gameplay. It was just perfect at the perfect time.

 

[Alexios]

I feel like we as gamers need to draw a line between ARPGs like Diablo , and then just action RPGs with hack and slash combat. They play nothing alike, and that’s intentional, but get lumped into the same genre all the same.

Maybe IARPG is what it needs to be since Diablo likes are Isometric view games?

The Ys I mentioned are isometric though. There are isometric Souls-likes and stuff as well now.

Snowflake moderator needs to go get laid btw, can't take a lighthearted dig at a vidya gaem.

 

[Edgelord79]

As much as I love Diablo 2, I think a game like Path of Exile has taken its crown for me anyhow.

I suggest adding Grim Dawn and Titan Quest to that list OP?

 

[Zathalus]

The one I played the most is D3. Pushing GR was mindless fun with some mates. Gearing was also straightforward.

Path of Exile I enjoyed as well but it's most a solo experience (outside of trading). Bit odd for an online only game.

 

[jshackles]

I love Diablo-likes, but usually only play through them for the story and natural progression through the final boss. In that regard, Diablo II is still wonderful because you start out so weak and end up wrecking house by the time you take on Diablo or Baal.

I've played a ton of Diablo III, but I'm not sure if I'd put it in the same category as II. IV is closer, but still not there.

I also really enjoy Titan Quest, Grim Dawn, and lately Last Epoch. These seem to be the cream of the crop and frequently get mentioned alongside the ones in the OP as "the best of the best". But I also enjoyed The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing and Wolcen: Lords of Mayhem.

 

[WitchHunter]

Just bring back the good ol single player diablo gameplay. Fuck the idiots and adhd lil monkeys grinding for 0.0001 drop chance loot, fuck the overused bubble gum effects, the 16.5 million hits, fuck your 95 level deep build, fuck multiplayer, just give me a good narrator who reads the quest for you, perfect music like Matt Uelmen's tristram and let's get going. Path of Exile is the worst time consuming cretinism ever devised.

 

[jshackles]

If you don't mind older games, Torchlight and Torchlight II were both excellent. Sad to see where the series went from there.

If you don't mind even older ARPGs in the same vein, the Fate series (precursor to Torchlight) were also all good.

 

[BennyBlanco]

Grim Dawn, PoE, Diablo 2, and Diablo 3 were all great. I liked Diablo 4 quite a bit but have no desire to go back to it after completing the campaign.

But to give a shout out to a weird one a lot of people probably never played this game rules

I played the hell out of this as a kid and never knew until years and years later that it was based on an anime.

 

[MastAndo]

It's hard to say. I'm a fan of the genre, but in a very casual sense. I dig the isometric view in games and just mindlessly destroying mobs, but I usually lose steam at some point early on in the endgame as I lose a sense of working towards anything in particular...which is kind of the whole point of the genre, I know. I usually put 50 hours in or so and then I'm done. That said. I enjoyed Diablo 3 and 4 doing just that an playing through the campaign, and I'm really liking Last Epoch right now for the same reasons after around 30 hours. It's got a bunch of quality of life things right out of the box which make the experience enjoyable and accessible, and the loot filter is a game changer. I'm not looking to be overwhelmed with complexity, and this game kind of feels like it's catering to a dummy like me. It's checking a lot of boxes that definitely puts it up there in my list of most enjoyable ARPGs. I'm hoping I stick with it (for a change) once I'm into the endgame.

 

[Denton]

Diablo and Diablo II are really the only ones I ever loved. Played both at release and replayed both when Hellfire came out on GOG and D2 Resurrected was released. Still fantastic. I remember hauling 19" CRTs and PCs to friends so we could play on LAN together, good times.

I also finished Dungeon Siege 1, which was ok.
Finished Torchlight 1, which was ok.
Played Titan Quest, which bored me.
Played Diablo 3, which bored me and I quit after an hour, forever.
Played Diablo 4 beta, which seemed good. I will give it a chance in gamepass.

 

[Krappadizzle]

The Last Epoch looks great, POE2 looks cool. Diablo IV was fun to play through with my friends, but it died off pretty quick for all of us after we beat it. I beat Diablo 2 forever ago and DIablo 3 not too long ago. I'm a casual fan of the genre though.

I'd say with what's been recently released or on the horizon, I'm genuinely excited to try out No Rest for The Wicked, the art direction and combat looks awesome.

 

[Edgelord79]

Anyone but me stoked for Titan quest 2?

 

[DownLikeBCPowder]

Diablo and Diablo II are really the only ones I ever loved. Played both at release and replayed both when Hellfire came out on GOG and D2 Resurrected was released. Still fantastic. I remember hauling 19" CRTs and PCs to friends so we could play on LAN together, good times.

I also finished Dungeon Siege 1, which was ok.
Finished Torchlight 1, which was ok.
Played Titan Quest, which bored me.
Played Diablo 3, which bored me and I quit after an hour, forever.
Played Diablo 4 beta, which seemed good. I will give it a chance in gamepass.

Yep. Probably my favorite LAN memories are with Diablo and Titan Quest. Great times.

 

[Deerock71]

I'm going to talk about a focused, CONCISE ARPG. The Legend of Nayuta: Boundless Trails. To me...it's a 9.5/10 game. It's what can happen when a dev team can take into account their budget and the hardware's constraints (in this case, the PSP), and can still create beauty.

This game had to have tight budgetary constraints, and I'm certain it had to make it out before something like Japan's Christmas season (Udo?!). Nevertheless, this game will embed itself into your ROM, with it's cozy town, it's memorable characters, and it's impact on TWO WORLDS as you propel the story to it's conclusion.

Do NOT sleep on this title. It will suck you into it's existence.

 

[amigastar]

Anyone but me stoked for Titan quest 2?

I am, too.
And i've liked Torchlight II, just too bad that Torchlight 3 sucked, they didn't even add Mod support which may have had saved the goddamn game.

 

[Edgelord79]

I am, too.
And i've liked Torchlight II, just too bad that Torchlight 3 sucked, they didn't even add Mod support which may have had saved the goddamn game.

Torchlight 3 was an abomination. I don’t think I’ve ever been so I unexcited getting loot.

 

[Mikado]

CTRL+F "Inquisitor" -> No Results

If one is looking for a palate-cleanser after all the dark fantasy ARPG looters (which I also love), here's a - somewhat janky - sci-fi, guns + melee Warhammer 40K take on it.

Also has some very nice presenation and honestly, playing that game has ended up costing me $$$ in the end, since I ended up getting into the physical WH40K collecting space as a result

To be fair - I can't in good conscience recommend it when not on sale, but they regularly have it and its expansions on deep discount.

 

[Arsic]

CTRL+F "Inquisitor" -> No Results

If one is looking for a palate-cleanser after all the dark fantasy ARPG looters (which I also love), here's a - somewhat janky - sci-fi, guns + melee Warhammer 40K take on it.

Also has some very nice presenation and honestly, playing that game has ended up costing me $$$ in the end, since I ended up getting into the physical WH40K collecting space as a result

To be fair - I can't in good conscience recommend it when not on sale, but they regularly have it and its expansions on deep discount.

Chaos bane is also a fun romp start to finish for warhammer, and not 40K.

I’ve tried to get into Martyr a few times but the janky gameplay won’t let me.

I play most of my ARPGs on a controller these days. This is where something like Diablo 2 &4 excel at. Last epoch with some tuning for casting will get there, and PoE has the worst pad support, especially on PC where it locks you out of on the fly switching to mouse and keyboard unless you relog into the game.

 

[Shifty1897]

Grim Dawn, PoE, Diablo 2, and Diablo 3 were all great. I liked Diablo 4 quite a bit but have no desire to go back to it after completing the campaign.

But to give a shout out to a weird one a lot of people probably never played this game rules

I played the hell out of this as a kid and never knew until years and years later that it was based on an anime.

The anime is based on fantasy novels which are based on a modified D&D game that the author and his friends played. My friend from high school got me into it.
If you haven't played it, Deedlit in Wonder Labyrinth is great too!

 

[Arsic]

Anyone but me stoked for Titan quest 2?

One of my most anticipated games easily.

Curious how they’ll do it now with PoE essentially holding the title of “this is what a ARPG should be” in so many peoples minds.

Curious if they can change up the game with something unique.

 

[yansolo]

i just like diablo 2, could be nostalgia but it was slower paced and more story/atmosphere driven, for me it feels like everything after d2 is focused on gear and numbers and endless grinding, im personally over all that stuff

 

[dorkimoe]

any word on a grim dawn 2? Pumped for titan quest 2, assume its another 2 years away

Torchlight 3 was an abomination. I don’t think I’ve ever been so I unexcited getting loot.

the 30fps on console killed it for me, and the map was awful. Hated that game. No idea how that happened

 

[Griffon]

Diablo 1 was amazing. It was slow and deliberate in how you explored and progressed. You had to watch your step and couldn't take on too many foes at once.

Everything that came after is jank, going at 1000miles per hours and killing hundreds of enemies filling the screen at all times. D2 ruined it and every game in that genre wants to be D2.

 

[bender]

Diablo 1 was amazing. It was slow and deliberate in how you explored and progressed. You had to watch your step and couldn't take on too many foes at once.

Everything that came after is jank, going a 1000miles per hours and killing hundreds of enemies filling the screen at all times. D2 ruined it and every game in that genre wants to be D2.

It's probably my favorite Diablo as well.

I think it is also why I appreciated the original Torchlight's structure so much. And speaking of that game, it is a shame more people didn't adopt how that game utilized pets to get rid of trash loot which was nothing short of brilliant.

 

[Hudo]

I like Ys.

 

[March Climber]

My question to you is what is the best ARPG and why? What are the key aspects for a ARPG to be successful? Do you prefer insane depth like PoE, or just focused fun like a Diablo 2? Or is the middle ground LE hit the sweet spot?

Because I was primarily a console gamer growing up, sometimes when it comes to certain genres I feel like I chose a different skill tree.

ARPGs are one of those genres. Forgive me if some of these don’t count, but I will trace my path…

For me it all started with Gauntlet on the NES:

Then Beyond Oasis on Sega Genesis:

Then Legacy of Kain on the PS1:

Then Gauntlet 64:

Then Record of Lodoss War(as posted above).

Then X-men Legends 1 and 2:

Then Marvel Ultimate Alliance 1 and 2:

Then Trine 1 and 2 (as listed above).

Then (personal favorite) the two Lara Croft games, Guardian of Light and Temple of Osiris:

Then finally Diablo 3.

I omitted some console ARPGs to just highlight my standouts. So hopefully the above will explain the below…

I did not like Path of Exile 1. While I acknowledge it is potentially a superior game to Diablo 3 in many ways like most claim, the controls for it feel old and stiff in a way that feels tacked on compared to most of the games I’ve listed above, which felt built and optimized for console play.

I do think that PoE 2 looks much, much better than 1 due to what seems to be a smoother game feel with an added roll dodge.

I also feel that the perfect form of this genre should take the best of what the console games have to offer (puzzles, multi-level dungeons, roll dodge, jumping, slight verticality, tight controls, etc.) with the best of what the PC games have to offer (endgame loops, more complex skill trees, mods, rpg complexities, etc).

Unfortunately today, there is still a bit of a split happening, which is causing me to wait before purchasing any new ARPG games to see if they have the console-version of fun that I’m looking for first and foremost. Just the grind itself doesn’t feel like a big enough sell for me, especially if the game is full priced or if it feels terrible to play on controller.

 

[dreamstation]

Diablo 2 is the GOAT. Having a blast playing Last Epoch now though but it's not going to surpass D2. Path of Exile was great for a long while but now I'm sort of over it. Really looking forward to Path of Exile 2.

The reason D2 is the best is because it absolutely nails itemization. The atmosphere is exceptional too.

 

[Kiya's Guard]

I was playing wolcen, it's not as bad as people put it imo. I'm gonna mention a couple diablo-likes of old: mu and ragnarok online. They count as mmos, and they play like diablo.

Haven't touched lost ark even since it was announced years ago, cause everybody says it's a totally asian mmo (with all the grind, dailies etc). Even though if this genre is quite suited for a live service game, I'm not convinced.

Couple more mentions of old, the beloved titan quest and grim dawn

 

[thief183]

Grim Dawn at the moment is the best arpg I've ever played, just bought last epoch, will see.

 

[lughnasadh123]

Having played Diablo 1, 2, 3, Dungeons of Norrath, Torchlight 2, and PoE - Diablo 3 was the most played overall that really nailed the power fantasy with incredibly fast gameplay. Also helps that it didn't have the statbloat or other weird design decisions from some of the other games. It's just fun to hop in and play.

 

[cireza]

Great pick, one of my all time favorites.

Then Beyond Oasis on Sega Genesis:

Love both Oasis games as well. Excellent gameplay, gorgeous visuals and soundtrack, and great level-design.

I'd like to mention Dragon's Blood on Dreamcast, it was a very enjoyable Dark-Fantasy ARPG in full 3D. Definitely worth checking.

 

[NT80]

Grim Dawn, PoE, Diablo 2, and Diablo 3 were all great. I liked Diablo 4 quite a bit but have no desire to go back to it after completing the campaign.

But to give a shout out to a weird one a lot of people probably never played this game rules

I played the hell out of this as a kid and never knew until years and years later that it was based on an anime.

Record of Lodoss War on Dreamcast is a real underrated gem. Brutally hard, complicated and uncompromising for a console action rpg. It had so many great unique ideas that I haven't seen in other games of this type. Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance 2 is another console arpg that despite being a bad game also had some interesting unique elements of it's own. I haven't seen those things tried again in other arpgs probably because of how obscure those games are.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Grim Dawn is the best among Isometric Action RPGs centered around a loot system.

 

[Northeastmonk]

I wanted X-Men Legends ported to newer consoles. I haven’t played it in years. I still have my PC copy. Maybe wishful thinking, but UA felt good in some areas and lacking in others.

I played D1-4. D1 on PS1 and D2 through the physical battle chest. I didn’t get to it until 2006 or so. Played them at launch after that. I own most of the well known ARPGs. I just don’t play them outside of new content/new release.

I had a horrible experience with Dungeon Siege. After playing D2 the game felt like an abomination. I bought a few games on GOG like Nox and etc. it’s a very fun genre. I actually gave an old Xbox live buddy my copy of Lodoss War on Dreamcast. I sent him Elemental Gearbolt and Ilbleed. Idk why.

 

[IAmRei]

Is it western only ARPG? I like wolcen recently, and titan quest and torchlight 2 are also my favorite ARPG. Often replayed them though casually. Grim dawn also quite okay. Should be more, but i forgot what games.

But if its including east, I like old YS more, especially YS origin. And Nayuta is also cool. Granblue relink, yakuza series, are also cool ARPG for me.

Edit: Xmen legend 2 are also my favorite, a dream come true game for me at the time.

 

[Rickyiez]

Path of Exile 2 looks so sick I can't wait . One of my most anticipated ARPG ... no , most anticipated game

 

[Duchess]

Does this count..? Loved it back in the day.

 

[Lethal01]

I assume you decided to make this post since it released last week, its FF7 Rebirth.

 

[sigmaZ]

Does this count..? Loved it back in the day.

God I love that game. That town theme is forever burned into my head

 

[Arsic]

I assume you decided to make this post since it released last week, its FF7 Rebirth.

No. If you read the OP then the post after, I’m referring to Diablo likes.

It’s been long overdue but we maybe need to start calling these IARPGs due to the isometric view, or Diablo likes. ARPGs that have more hack and slash combat not focused on loot grinds, aren’t what I’m referring to.

 

[Svejk]

LandStalker and Alundra. Still the kings of ARPGs, that aren't Zeldurah.

And Brave Fencer Musashi. Such gems that need to be re-released.

 

[_Ex_]

I think the Ys series is overall the best action-(J)RPG series out there.

 

[Shake Your Rump]

I think the Ys series is overall the best action-(J)RPG series out there.

This was my first thought. There are a few fantastic Japanese actions RPGS, but apparently OP is only interested in western games?

 

[Arsic]

This was my first thought. There are a few fantastic Japanese actions RPGS, but apparently OP is only interested in western games?

I was interested in Diablo likes.

Blame our broad labeling for ARPGs to include too much clearly different shit.

If anything this thread shows how apparent it is that we need loot driven Diablo likes to have their own genre name and not ARPG.