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[dark10x]

To the first part, that's interesting to hear. You have a link to some information that explains why higher resolutions exhibit dot crawl more? Even still, what I said stands, regardless of its severity (though it becomes moot in the context of what I replied to).

To the second, I'm a little confused here.

These old consoles output a 240p (progressive) image. From what I understand, unless you have an expensive RGB adapter for, say, PC CRT, you have no choice BUT to use an old school sdtv that will interlace the original image.

So how is that a requirement for true 240p? Sounds more like a lack of choice than anything.


Edit: Unless you're saying, in order to get true 240p output, you'd need a display that can output standard definition resolutions - non interlaced.

If that's the case, again, this composite only GXtv won't give you true 240p. Its 240i

If that NOT the case, and you mean a display that can output at 240 - independent of interlacing....then how is it TRUE 240(p)?

You should do some research on 240p. There is no such thing are "240i".

When using 240p mode only the even scanlines are drawn while the odd scanlines are left black. This creates a lower resolution but more stable image. 15 khz 240p is different than what you'd see on a PC monitor outputting at 320x240.

 

[Tain]

Edit: Unless you're saying, in order to get true 240p output, you'd need a display that can output standard definition resolutions - non interlaced.

If that's the case, again, this composite only GXtv won't give you true 240p. Its 240i

If that NOT the case, and you mean a display that can output at 240 - independent of interlacing....then how is it TRUE 240(p)?

Picture a 480i image, only instead of the odd and even lines interlacing and drawing between each other, shift the odd lines so they draw directly on top of the even lines (or vice-versa). That's, as far as I can tell, a decent way to explain how these old machines display a progressive image, and it explains why you see scanlines. Composite will do this on any old SDTV, as will RF/S-Video/component.

 

[kinggroin]

You should do some research on 240p. There is no such thing are "240i".

When using 240p mode only the even scanlines are drawn while the odd scanlines are left black. This creates a lower resolution but more stable image. 15 khz 240p is different than what you'd see on a PC monitor outputting at 320x240.

I'll look into it for sure, but you've already opened the can of discussion, so some further enlightenment would be appreciated.


I know there's no 240i. I'm just pointing out (incorrectly, it seems) that you can't take a progressive image and keep it so when displaying on a display like the GXtv.

So, you're saying that this 240p mode (which is handled differently than the traditional method of displaying the same resolution) can be enabled on a TV like the one I quoted?


Edit:Thanks for the clarification above!

So wow, holy fuck. I never knew these old consoles could display a mode that allowed interlaced sdtvs to use the scan lines in a fixed position to create pseudo progressive image. Ha, thanks!

 

[brumx]

I believe most productions still use CRT sets to edit and view there stuff.

 

[Leonsito]

My father bought a new Samsung LED, so I told him to give me his old 29" Sony Trinitron, it's a KV-X2903E and has a RGB input, and front AV connectors, here it is with my SNES plugged in:

It's a bad pic, but you get the idea, I will try to make better pics later, also I don't know how to calibrate a CRT TV so the colors are not perfect

 

[jbueno]

Leonsito that´s through composite right? Doesn´t look as sharp as it would through RGB SCART I think.

 

[Lyte Edge]

This is my tv of choice for classic gaming. Badass tv!!

I have one of these sitting at my parents' house...was thinking of going to get it and using it for the older systems I still have. But the screen is so small!

 

[brumx]

Use any THX disc usually WEGAS sets are beyond bright and the red is almost pink.

 

[Leonsito]

Leonsito that´s through composite right? Doesn´t look as sharp as it would through RGB SCART I think.

Yes, the SNES is plugged through the front composite connectors, to be honest I don't know if a RGB SCART would work with an unmodded PAL SNES.

 

[brainpann]

Yes, the SNES is plugged through the front composite connectors, to be honest I don't know if a RGB SCART would work with an unmodded PAL SNES.

I am pretty certain RGB scart available on ALL pre-redesign SNESs including PAL units.

 

[Leonsito]

I am pretty certain RGB scart available on ALL pre-redesign SNESs including PAL units.

Oh thanks, just found one RGB cable, I think I'm buying it.

 

[Josh7289]

The top one is actually the newer set. These were manufactured in 2004 and were pretty much the last CRTs Sony had in stores. This is why you see so many more of them.

They are perfectly fine sets. Mine was the FS120, which is ever so slightly better than the (likely) FS100 you have pictured. They are good overall, with component and s-video inputs.

Make sure you have a DVD player to test the screen. You cannot correct convergence errors on these WEGAs. If there is significant convergence problems anywhere but the extreme corners, don't buy it. I always take a DVD player and my AVIA test DVD.

I spent my first evening with my FV310 tinkering with the geometry and I think I have it as perfect as I can get. There is a slight pincushion up along the top edge, but otherwise it is better than my old FS120, which had almost perfect geometry, but moderate convergence problem on the bottom left.

Do you know if the FV300 series allows for geometry adjustments (at least in the service menu)?

 

[brumx]

FV300 you can do anything in service menu even make wide screen bigger

 

[Scavenger]

Oh thanks, just found one RGB cable, I think I'm buying it.

Be careful, PAL SNES scart RGB cables are not the same as Super Famicom/Gamecube scart RGB cables. SFC/NGC Scart cable is not compatible with PAL SNES. You need to get one like this for a PAL SNES: http://www.ebay.nl/itm/SNES-PAL-Sca...Games_Cables_and_Adaptors&hash=item19d5b30dd5

 

[alanias]

Any Opinions on a Sony FD Trinitron WEGA KV-36FS120 36 inch TV. I can find one in my area for ~200. Wondering if it is worth it.

 

[Leonsito]

Be careful, PAL SNES scart RGB cables are not the same as Super Famicom/Gamecube scart RGB cables. SFC/NGC Scart cable is not compatible with PAL SNES. You need to get one like this for a PAL SNES: http://www.ebay.nl/itm/SNES-PAL-Sca...Games_Cables_and_Adaptors&hash=item19d5b30dd5

Thanks for the advice, the one I'm going to get is this one:

https://ecom.amenworld.com/epages/2...jectPath=/Shops/218543/Products/8432690013305

It's from a Spanish retro site, I'm going to pick up RGB cables too for my Dreamcast, Gamecube and MegaDrive (Genesis), plus a SCART NES cable and a switch for all the RGB SCARTs.

Total: 60€ in cables lol

 

[jbueno]

Be careful, PAL SNES scart RGB cables are not the same as Super Famicom/Gamecube scart RGB cables. SFC/NGC Scart cable is not compatible with PAL SNES. You need to get one like this for a PAL SNES: http://www.ebay.nl/itm/SNES-PAL-Sca...Games_Cables_and_Adaptors&hash=item19d5b30dd5

Not only is it not compatible, using such cables on PAL devices might short your electronics.

 

[Trojita]

I wish I had a house that was big enough to have a dedicated gaming room with a CRT.

 

[joeygreco1985]

This is my tv of choice for classic gaming. Badass tv!!

LOL What the fuck

That is the goofiest TV I've ever seen!

 

[PetriP-TNT]

That is a issue with all Super Nintendo systems. People with knowledge of electronics have done a lot of tinkering and some versions and configs lessen the appearance but it is always lurking.
.

IIRC user:Hamburglar on SA found a model with no vertical bar across the screen not too long ago

 

[George Claw M.D.]

Any Opinions on a Sony FD Trinitron WEGA KV-36FS120 36 inch TV. I can find one in my area for ~200. Wondering if it is worth it.

Don't forget the cost to rent the forklift you'll need to move it.

 

[Silkworm]

LOL What the fuck

That is the goofiest TV I've ever seen!

That TV seems to spark a memory. Was this one of those gaming specific TVs? I seem to remember some sort of TV like this in an ad in an old issue of EGM. And didn't the speakers fold up on the TV so you could transport it like a cube such that the monitor was protected. And then the speakers would offer a "surround" sound like effect? Anyway, maybe I'm crazy and am thinking of something completely different

 

[kinggroin]

Folks interested in the advantages of running older consoles at 240 non-interlaced mode when paired with a sdtv, read a great discussion here:

http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=3625.0

Keep in mind that the 'p' doesn't signify the same type of progressive scan rendering commonly used by most High Definition devices today. However, there remains the similarity of keeping a constant stable image (albeit at a lower res with noticeable scan lines) giving you a result that's very true to what you experienced with many old school games in the arcades!

Thanks to Dark10x for bringing the whole thing to my attention!

That TV seems to spark a memory. Was this one of those gaming specific TVs? I seem to remember some sort of TV like this in an ad in an old issue of EGM. And didn't the speakers fold up on the TV so you could transport it like a cube such that the monitor was protected. And then the speakers would offer a "surround" sound like effect? Anyway, maybe I'm crazy and am thinking of something completely different

No, you're not crazy. Its Samsung's GXtv with fold-away speaker cabinets. I'm not sure if there was anything in particular that made it a special 'gaming' TV, but as mentioned earlier, its small screen combined with decent comb filter provided a very clean image.

 

[CoachKevin]

Finally moved into the new place and unpacking things. Here is the new retro gaming setup:



Still have about a dozen SNES tapes coming from ebay auctions.

 

[Zing]

Do you know if the FV300 series allows for geometry adjustments (at least in the service menu)?

You can adjust pretty much all geometry except horizontal bowing. In other words, if your horizontal lines are curving up or down, there is nothing you can do.

Any Opinions on a Sony FD Trinitron WEGA KV-36FS120 36 inch TV. I can find one in my area for ~200. Wondering if it is worth it.

I'd do it if it comes with the Sony stand. Note that the TV weighs 225lbs. You will need three very strong people, or four if going up stairs.

IIRC user:Hamburglar on SA found a model with no vertical bar across the screen not too long ago

I find any claim of a SNES with no vertical bar to be dubious. The bar can sometimes be hidden on digital TVs, due to dithering or black crush. Also, there have been several people on various forums who claimed to have no bar, then later discovered it when adjusting their TV settings or using the system on a different TV. I personally had this happen to myself. I bought a brand new model 2, and could not see any vertical bar. It turns out, I was just not playing games that clearly show it. Super Metroid, Earthbound, Final Fantasy III, and Castlevania IV are all games that will bring out the worst in the bar. I actually noticed there is a second vertical bar along the extreme right edge of the screen in Castlevania IV!

 

[Josh7289]

You can adjust pretty much all geometry except horizontal bowing. In other words, if your horizontal lines are curving up or down, there is nothing you can do.

Thanks for the information. So this is how I understand it at the moment:

adjustable?   geometry  convergence
FS100/FS120:    ???         NO
FV300:         MOSTLY       ???

If I could be so bold as to ask, could you kindly provide the missing data?

I find any claim of a SNES with no vertical bar to be dubious. The bar can sometimes be hidden on digital TVs, due to dithering or black crush. Also, there have been several people on various forums who claimed to have no bar, then later discovered it when adjusting their TV settings or using the system on a different TV. I personally had this happen to myself. I bought a brand new model 2, and could not see any vertical bar. It turns out, I was just not playing games that clearly show it. Super Metroid, Earthbound, Final Fantasy III, and Castlevania IV are all games that will bring out the worst in the bar. I actually noticed there is a second vertical bar along the extreme right edge of the screen in Castlevania IV!

Holy shit, that vertical line is on all SNESs?! Man, I played through almost the entirely of Chrono Trigger a few years back with that line bothering me. You see, I hadn't played an actual SNES console for years leading up to that, and I suppose that because I was suddenly playing one again, and hooked up with an S-Video cable to a plasma TV, it just stood out to me where I had never noticed it before.

For me the bar is a little to the left of the center of the screen, and, the same as you, I noticed the bar on the extreme right side of the screen as well later on. At least in Chrono Trigger when I noticed it most, they both showed up as a dark blue hue, if I recall correctly.

I actually bought a second console to avoid this vertical bar (but haven't tested it yet). This changes everything, hahaha

 

[jbueno]

I realized I haven´t really put my TV in here. I´ve been playing Wii and all my old consoles through this little lovely Sony Kv-21fa550 Fd Trinitron Wega 21 inch TV which I got new in 2007, and it has served me very well all these years. It has 1 Component, 1 S-Video and 2 Composite inputs, and even headphone and line-in jacks. It is a very complete set, has a pseudo 5.1 Surround system which is overkill for retro systems but sounds great anyways.

Here´s a stock pic of said TV.

And here´s the obligatory pic of the TV playing Super Metroid. Pardon the crappy pic quality, the Snes is plugged through composite because the cheap Gamestop branded S-Video cables decided to crap out on me.

Though I might change it, a friend has offered to sell me a NEC XM29 plus multisync monitor, only thing is he lives about 200 miles away and we haven´t really had the time to arrange a pickup/delivery.

 

[brumx]

WEGAS are unbreakable TV that will last forever

 

[dark10x]

I find any claim of a SNES with no vertical bar to be dubious. The bar can sometimes be hidden on digital TVs, due to dithering or black crush. Also, there have been several people on various forums who claimed to have no bar, then later discovered it when adjusting their TV settings or using the system on a different TV. I personally had this happen to myself. I bought a brand new model 2, and could not see any vertical bar. It turns out, I was just not playing games that clearly show it. Super Metroid, Earthbound, Final Fantasy III, and Castlevania IV are all games that will bring out the worst in the bar. I actually noticed there is a second vertical bar along the extreme right edge of the screen in Castlevania IV!

It has been proven that this bar is eliminated by using a one chip SNES modded with RGB support. It might even be possible to avoid this with a regular SNES if you bypass the encoder chip.

THAT is actually the source of the problem. The encoder used by the SNES produces this vertical line and bypassing it eliminates the problem.

The absolute best image quality stems from a 1-chip with RGB, however. Perfectly clean all around.

 

[Phat Michael]

yeah i have a 68cm wega.which i.TATE for my supergun cave shmups. thing weighs a fucking tonne.

 

[Zing]

Thanks for the information. So this is how I understand it at the moment:

adjustable?   geometry  convergence
FS100/FS120:    ???         NO
FV300:         MOSTLY       ???

If I could be so bold as to ask, could you kindly provide the missing data?

The two models have essentially the same service mode settings. You cannot correct convergence in either. Geometry has the exact same settings as well. You can correct everything except horizontal bow (curving up or down) and horizontal linearity (image being proper width all the way across screen).

 

[Josh7289]

The two models have essentially the same service mode settings. You cannot correct convergence in either. Geometry has the exact same settings as well. You can correct everything except horizontal bow (curving up or down) and horizontal linearity (image being proper width all the way across screen).

It seems that I had gotten confused by the difference between convergence and geometry, so thanks for clearing that all up!

 

[Yes Boss!]

WEGAS are unbreakable TV that will last forever

Tell that to my KV-27FS120 which went dead a few years after purchase.

That was a decade ago...never bought a Sony TV since.

 

[dark10x]

Tell that to my KV-27FS120 which went dead a few years after purchase.

That was a decade ago...never bought a Sony TV since.

You were simply unlucky, I'd wager.

 

[Flame Lord]

I saw Trinitron a month back at a flea market for about $70. Would have totally gotten it but I still live at home and have no room...

 

[PetriP-TNT]

I find any claim of a SNES with no vertical bar to be dubious. The bar can sometimes be hidden on digital TVs, due to dithering or black crush. Also, there have been several people on various forums who claimed to have no bar, then later discovered it when adjusting their TV settings or using the system on a different TV. I personally had this happen to myself. I bought a brand new model 2, and could not see any vertical bar. It turns out, I was just not playing games that clearly show it. Super Metroid, Earthbound, Final Fantasy III, and Castlevania IV are all games that will bring out the worst in the bar. I actually noticed there is a second vertical bar along the extreme right edge of the screen in Castlevania IV!

Obviously it's dubious, but check Retro games discussion (with pics) topic on SA and see for yourself. Hamburglars crusade for perfect picture quality is pretty epic, going as far as finding model numbers that people had never even seen.

 

[Goody]

Is it normal to see waves in solid colors (like for example on the NES's green screen) on a CRT? It's been so long since I used a tube TV I can't remember.

 

[Reluctant-Hero]

This is my tv of choice for classic gaming. Badass tv!!

Holy shit, a GXTV! I never owned one myself, but when I worked for Funcoland back in '99 every store in my area had them. I miss those good old days of ignoring customers and enjoying Chrono Trigger, Super Metroid and Metal Gear Solid.

 

[grap3fruitman]

This is a random thought but I want a 4k CRT TV...

 

[DonMigs85]

I wonder how the original Xbox had such magically clean video output. Even using composite, dot crawl was very minimal compared to the PS2 and GameCube (GameCube, and hi-res N64 games before it, seemed to exhibit the worst dot crawl over composite).

 

[v0yce]

I realized I haven´t really put my TV in here. I´ve been playing Wii and all my old consoles through this little lovely Sony Kv-21fa550 Fd Trinitron Wega 21 inch TV which I got new in 2007, and it has served me very well all these years. It has 1 Component, 1 S-Video and 2 Composite inputs, and even headphone and line-in jacks. It is a very complete set, has a pseudo 5.1 Surround system which is overkill for retro systems but sounds great anyways.

Here´s a stock pic of said TV.

And here´s the obligatory pic of the TV playing Super Metroid. Pardon the crappy pic quality, the Snes is plugged through composite because the cheap Gamestop branded S-Video cables decided to crap out on me.


Though I might change it, a friend has offered to sell me a NEC XM29 plus multisync monitor, only thing is he lives about 200 miles away and we haven´t really had the time to arrange a pickup/delivery.

Wow that actually looks really great. I bet the smaller size really makes things pretty sharp. I need to find one of these. I have a Samsung CRT HDTV that I keep around for retro consoles, but it's fairly big. That smaller size would be pretty nice.

 

[brumx]

Some Wegas have bass so you can turn the sucker up and feel your room shake

 

[itwasTuesday]

This is my tv of choice for classic gaming. Badass tv!!

Have one sitting in my parent's workshop, told them not to throw it away. I will be back for it someday. One of the composite video inputs broke off on mine, so it just has 1 now. I think it had 2 to begin with.

 

[DonMigs85]

Oh yeah, that vertical bar thing on the SNES was normal? When I was younger I never really noticed it but when I got older I thought my SNES was getting defective. It was also most apparent in FFIII for me.

 

[Shining]

This is my tv of choice for classic gaming. Badass tv!!

That, sir, is awesome! I have never seen anything like this beautiful monstrosity. I can imagine the look on my girlfriends face if i were to bring this thing home
I could have gotten a 29" Sony Trinitron for like $30 the other day, but we just have no room for it in our apartment.

 

[DCharlie]

Until its unfortunate death i had a 29 inch sony profeel monitor. It shat on pretty much any retro display i've seen outside the custom retro displays a collecting friend has (as part of a 3 monitor Darius set up ... #spuuuuuuuz)

I also had a sony Vega with a multi-rgb - that was pretty solid too.

Also used to have 4x Astrocities that i had one set for Mame cab , 1 for ps2/dreamcast/xbox with jpac controller convertors which was pretty awesome.

But yeah, i'd take the profeel over anything i have seen - with the exception of my friends $1000 a pop custom retro monitors

 

[ViperVisor]

Some Wegas have bass so you can turn the sucker up and feel your room shake

That was actually just as striking when I replaced my old CRT with the the Mega Wega.
7.5W x 2 speakers With a 15W Sub.

LG has a 47" LED TV that works with just that much power.

Is a treat to actually hear all the music and sounds that were probably muffled due to weak and cheap speakers and your obnoxious friends.

 

[brandonh83]

 

[Baller. PhD]

So I want to get a 2.1 speaker set-up in my retro gaming room. I'll be using a CRT Trinitron.

How would this work (with the receiver, etc)? Do they even make shitty 2.1 receivers that have hella component/s-video inputs? Any recommendations?

 

[Zing]

Why do you need video switching on your receiver?

The answer to your question is no, there are no simple 2.1 receivers with video inputs. I also wanted just two-channel audio, and I ended up buying a Sony two-channel receiver.