Support NeoGAF

[Tain]

Nope. HD CRTs suffer from no input lag.

Scaling? CRTs don't have a fixed resolution...

As a gamer who has played Battletoads on NES (A platformer that requires split second timing) I have not noticed any input lag or blurring compared to how I played it on a LCD.

The game looks better in 480p. Or shall I say 540p mode.

It's impossible to have an informed discussion on input lag based solely on what people notice. Different people have different tolerances for delay (even enthusiasts won't notice it, at times). It's a legitimately hard thing to measure, as people generally don't go out of their way to set up a high framerate camera comparison. And you definitely can't assume that Battletoads is demanding enough that a couple frames of lag would significantly harm your performance in it.

But, as said by me and now dark10x, despite CRTs not having fixed resolutions, HD CRTs do scale images. What happens when you bring up your TV's OSD while running a low resolution source, after all? Are you honestly telling me that your 2000's HDTV has a scanline-laden 240p configuration menu?

 

[Reiko]

I understand now. I rarely game in 480i or 240p.

 

[dark10x]

I understand now. I rarely game in 480i or 240p.

So you just rely on emulation rather than using actual hardware then?

 

[Reiko]

So you just rely on emulation rather than using actual hardware then?

Yeah.

I'm too lazy to pull out my Genesis. And my NES needs a AC adapter.

 

[IrishNinja]

assuming it's still there, i was thinking of trying to pick up this 36" (37?) trinitron, for my SD systems (NES, SNES, genesis etc), had a few questions:

1) i know the price is right, but i'm spoiled by my 50" plasma. are there many other TV's that perform better with larger screens? if so, which ones?

2) anyone know what kind've inputs to expect here? i just got the dreamcast on said panasonic via VGA > converter > HDMI, was debating modding/SCART'ing the older ones for component, or VGA if that's an option here.

 

[Roge_NES]

assuming it's still there, i was thinking of trying to pick up this 36" (37?) trinitron, for my SD systems (NES, SNES, genesis etc), had a few questions:

1) i know the price is right, but i'm spoiled by my 50" plasma. are there many other TV's that perform better with larger screens? if so, which ones?

2) anyone know what kind've inputs to expect here? i just got the dreamcast on said panasonic via VGA > converter > HDMI, was debating modding/SCART'ing the older ones for component, or VGA if that's an option here.

Sony WEGAs are by far one the best CRT TV's on the market, can't go wrong with them.

The TV on the ad it's probably 240p/480i with Component and S-Video inputs, you can easily get a SCART cable (Like this one) for your Dreamcast and plug it in using a SCART to Component converter.

 

[drugstore_cowboy]

The Trinitrons before they went 'flat' were the best imo.

 

[IrishNinja]

Sony WEGAs are by far one the best CRT TV's on the market, can't go wrong with them.

The TV on the ad it's probably 240p/480i with Component and S-Video inputs, you can easily get a SCART cable (Like this one) for your Dreamcast and plug it in using a SCART to Component converter.

ah, and how big did the WEGAs get before becoming HD tvs? any particular model to look for, for best SD gameplay?

The Trinitrons before they went 'flat' were the best imo.

so the rounded edges like the one i linked to then, yeah? i looked up a few others & totally saw the flat ones i think you're talking about

 

[Kageshinzo]

1) i know the price is right, but i'm spoiled by my 50" plasma. are there many other TV's that perform better with larger screens? if so, which ones?

Trinitrons are basically the best in its era.

 

[Wynnebeck]

What's the best TV to use if you wanted to import rhythm games from Japan like Beatmania IIDX and Pop n' Music?

 

[drugstore_cowboy]

so the rounded edges like the one i linked to then, yeah? i looked up a few others & totally saw the flat ones i think you're talking about

Yeah, but it's not easy to find an old CRT that's been well maintained, check it out before picking it up, raise the brightness and contrast, that should show up defects. I've had a few with soft looking screens, more so in the corners. There's still no better way to play retro hardware.

 

[rudieboy77]

The best picture I have every seen was my JVC I'Art, it made my Sony Trinitron/WEGA look dull and really not as good. Plus the JVC had many more options to fine tune the picture quality.

 

[ScoobyMaroon]

I've been on the HUNT for a Wega FV310 recently. I really wish these dumb people would all put the model numbers in their listings on craigslist! I'm considering traveling a ways to get the 32fv310 with stand that I'm dreaming of but there is a 36fv300 a little closer to me. Can anybody explain the difference between the 300 and the 310?

36" is probably a little too big for the room that it will go in so that combined with it being a little "worse" will probably just make me drive the extra hour to get the perfect TV.

 

[Tain]

What's the best TV to use if you wanted to import rhythm games from Japan like Beatmania IIDX and Pop n' Music?

You'd be fine with any component-supporting non-HD CRT television set.

 

[BubbaMc]

I you have a bit of money so spend, look at the arcade display offerings from Wells Gardner.

Also I third the Commodore 1084S suggestion. One of the finest consumer 15khz RGB displays put on the market.

 

[Kainazzo]

I've found an excellent monitor in my Sony 20M2MDU. It has a 19'' screen to balance size with portability, a wealth of inputs (2 RGB, 2 composite, 1 S-video), outputs so you can hook up a recording device, and features plenty of fine tuning options. I use the RGBHV line for my retro consoles, and convert the RGBS line to component for the Wii.

Seems to have a pretty good deinterlacer to boot, even the 360 locked in 480i has very little flickering; don't even need to worry about purchasing a 580xi for it. The one I bought was used from a hospital but is in excellent condition. I like it so much I even bought a spare, new in box, for $150 with free shipping off eBay. It's like they can't give these amazing sets away fast enough.

Cons are a lack of nice internal speakers (you'll want to go external) and a high weight (about 60 lbs, make sure it's on a sturdy surface). I also hear these only last about ~35 years, so you'll inevitably need another solution for the long haul.

 

[BocoDragon]

I've found an excellent monitor in my Sony 20M2MDU. It has a 19'' screen to balance size with portability, has a wealth of inputs (2 RGB, 2 composite, 1 S-video), has outputs so you can hook up a recording device, and features plenty of fine tuning options.

Seems to have a pretty good deinterlacer to boot, even the 360 locked in 480i has very little flickering; don't even need to worry about purchasing a 580xi for it. The one I bought was used from a hospital but is in excellent shape. I like it so much I even bought a spare, new in box, for $150 with free shipping off eBay. It's like they can't give these amazing sets away fast enough.

Cons are a lack of nice internal speakers (you'll want to go external) and a high weight (about 60 lbs, make sure it's on a sturdy surface).

That's exactly the monitor I've been keeping an eye out for ;_;

Glad to hear its worth it!

 

[Kainazzo]

That's exactly the monitor I've been keeping an eye out for ;_;

Glad to hear its worth it!

It is, in all rational honesty, the best monitor I have ever used for anything. Ever. Makes me wish I could run Crysis at 320x240 >_>

Managed to find this though: (Price reduced just for you!)

It's wise to be wary of used monitors of course; I took a leap of faith with my first one and it all worked out. Should you find one with a dirty speaker grill (like the one listed), a magic eraser fixes everything. They seem to post brand new sets every once in a while too, so good luck to you!

 

[BocoDragon]

It is, in all rational honesty, the best monitor I have ever used for anything. Ever. Makes me wish I could run Crysis at 320x240 >_>

Managed to find this though: (Price reduced just for you!)

It's wise to be wary of used monitors of course; I took a leap of faith with my first one and it all worked out. Should you find one with a dirty speaker grill (like the one listed), a magic eraser fixes everything. They seem to post brand new sets every once in a while too, so good luck to you!

Oh wow..! I'm strongly considering that. Thanks for the find.

Gotta factor in the cost of importing all those scart adapters for consoles, too. Time to go full RGB

 

[Yes Boss!]

I you have a bit of money so spend, look at the arcade display offerings from Wells Gardner.

Another option, and even better quality than the WG, is one of the Nieman Displays. I've got a tri-sync and it is quite nice (if you like 'em bare, though).

http://www.niemandisplays.com/nieman_video_displays_006.htm

Also, ordered an SLG 3000 to put into a Dreamcast pipeline. Hoping it works well for the low-rez sprite games like Gunlord and Mars Matrix.

 

[Kainazzo]

Oh wow..! I'm strongly considering that. Thanks for the find.

Gotta factor in the cost of importing all those scart adapters for consoles, too. Time to go full RGB

Well if you don't mind me hijacking this again, I can point you to what I used, since my journey to RGB was totally uncharted territory:

All the SCART cables you should need can be bought domestically in the US from here

To convert RGB SCART to RGBHV or RGBS, you'll first need a breakout board. I use this, but he hasn't relisted them in a while. Another option is to import this, which does the same thing but has a bright red LED that may be annoying. Works just as well though. However, I recommend getting the power supply unless you know what you're doing. You'll need a Euro->US adapter like this. You don't need an expensive step-down, it's a universal PSU.

Next you might need a SCART splitter. The Sony PVM does not support autoswitching, so you'll need a box with mechanical switches (otherwise you will get screen interference). I got this one, which has worked great, but does require importing. They don't sell good selectors in the US >_<.

Those should set you up for video, and a nice amp+setero speakers should cover you on audio. A word though: if you want to use your 360 with this monitor, use RGB SCART instead of component. It varies from set to set, but this particular model darkens the component signal when used for a 360. It's nice and vibrant with RGB. Those are sold domestically here

Whew, sorry to rattle on like this, but I hope it helped! Let me know if there's anything else I can do.

 

[BocoDragon]

Well if you don't mind me hijacking this again, I can point you to what I used, since my journey to RGB was totally uncharted territory:

All the SCART cables you should need can be bought domestically in the US from here

To convert RGB SCART to RGBHV or RGBS, you'll first need a breakout board. I use this, but he hasn't relisted them in a while. Another option is to import this, which does the same thing but has a bright red LED that may be annoying. Works just as well though.

Next you might need a SCART splitter. The Sony PVM does not support autoswitching, so you'll need a box with mechanical switches (otherwise you will get screen interference. I got this one, which has worked great, but does require importing. They don't sell good selectors in the US >_<.

Those should set you up for video, and a nice amp+setero speakers should cover you on audio. A word though: if you want to use your 360 with this monitor, use RGB SCART instead of component. It varies from set to set, but this particular model darkens the component signal when used for a 360. It's nice and vibrant with RGB. Those are sold domestically here

Whew, sorry to rattle on like this, but I hope it helped! Let me know if there's anything else I can do.

Naw dude that's awesome! That's exactly the info I need right now! Really cool that the aftermarket seems to have produced enough cables to supply them for cheap. I was envisioning having to hunt down obscure old scart cables on Japanese auction sites ;P

(I see they've even gotten Genesis -> 32X cables manufactured... Even 3 years ago, finding that cable was a bitch!)

Id say you nudged me into making this a reality! I already have a retro setup taking up space anyway, so I might as well upgrade the quality.

 

[Teknoman]

Honest question, are Daewoo TVs any good? Was at a thrift store a week ago, and saw this:

http://www.cowboom.com/product/74849

Had a composite on the front, two composite (one composite only and the other composite+ s-video) in the back, component, and audio out (would use for 2.1 speakers).

Was 30 bucks, and I havent see anything comparable for cheaper...yet.

Ideally i'm looking for a CRT that isnt too big, but at least has component, a couple composite, s-video, and audio output.

 

[BubbaMc]

All this talking about gaming CRT's made me go and look at our local online trading site.

Found a Sony PVM-2730QM for $50 negotiable, hopefully will be going to get it soon

Also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoBqm4ThJxw

 

[BubbaMc]

I've seen these Olympus branded Trinitron monitors at work and wondering if they would make good game monitors. I ask because their connections are not like the usual, and apparently they just....toss them when they upgrade to new equipment! :O

Those connections are for 15khz RGB, i.e. exactly what you want.

 

[ExitPlanetDust]

All this talking about gaming CRT's made me go and look at our local online trading site.

Found a Sony PVM-2730QM for $50 negotiable, hopefully will be going to get it soon

Also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoBqm4ThJxw

Every time this thread gets bumped I end up on Craig's doing every possible search variation for "Sony PVM".

I missed a chance at a super clean 27" for around $50 a year ago. I've been kicking myself since.

 

[jbueno]

All this talking about gaming CRT's made me go and look at our local online trading site.

Found a Sony PVM-2730QM for $50 negotiable, hopefully will be going to get it soon

Also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoBqm4ThJxw

That video is pure CRT porn, I love it.

 

[Roge_NES]

Here's a little guide/info I gathered for you guys, hopefully it helps you.

Types of CRT TV's

SD CRT TV.
This ones have a native resolution of 480i, they display 240p natively making them pretty much "lag free".

EDTV CRT TV.
This ones came out in the mid 2000's, their native resolution most of the time is 480P, some models run at 100hz instead of the 60hz standard and some have a 16:9 ratio.
IMHO I'd recommend you to avoid them, they have plenty of issues from input lag to picture stretching and since they run at 480p that means no more scanlines.

Connections - Ranging from best to worse for 240P sources.

Jap 21-Pin RGB Scart
YUV/YPbPr/Component
S-Video
Composite
RF

Unfortunately TV's with RGB Scart input never made it to America, hence why TV's with component input are the way to go. (Or if you have the $$$ you can invest on an RGB monitor)

To get the best out of a classic console what you can do is use an RGB to YUV converter.

You can buy RGB cables for your consoles on Ebay (Ex. http://www.ebay.com/sch/retro_console_accessories/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p3686 )

I picked up a JVC AV27320 last december, it's a nonflat CRT TV with Component input.

You can easily plug in a Wii via Component and run virtual console titles, most of them run at 240P.

The next step to take is to calibrate the TV, the easiest way is to download Artemio's 240P suite, you can run it on Dreamcast (Burning the file to a disc) , Sega Gengesis via flashcart, or on the Wii using the Genesis Emulator, it contains a lot of tools that help you set up the color, brightness, contrast and sharpness of the TV.
Link - http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/240p_test_suite

Here's some pictures of my tv after being calibrated.

If you have any questions feel free to ask me via twitter =D @Roge_NES

 

[Teknoman]

Would any crt with component support 480p?

 

[Def Jukie]

Would any crt with component support 480p?

No, not all models do. I have a Sony Wega that has component inputs but displays in 480i.

 

[Yes Boss!]

Which brings me to an interesting question.

I'm using a gheet multisync (PAL/NTSC/SECAM) CRT I brought back from germany and my japanese Wii plays just fine on it via component, but my NA Wii does not. I'm guessing something is set wrong in the menu on the NA Wii??

BTW, this TV has fantastic image for free and nothing (image is with component input, nothing else, SFC):

I mean, It looks amazing.

 

[Roge_NES]

Which brings me to an interesting question.

I'm using a gheet multisync (PAL/NTSC/SECAM) CRT I brought back from germany and my japanese Wii plays just fine on it via component, but my NA Wii does not. I'm guessing something is set wrong in the menu on the NA Wii??

Besides choosing the screen ratio and output resolution there's nothing else to it, sometimes when choosing 480P and playing VC titles you could get a black screen, what type of issues are you having with your NA Wii?

 

[Yes Boss!]

Besides choosing the screen ratio and output resolution there's nothing else to it, sometimes when choosing 480P and playing VC titles you could get a black screen, what type of issues are you having with your NA Wii?

NA Wii just is a black image. Actually, it is a strange display...during Wii playback (in-game) I get what seems like resolution/sync re-start issues. Strange, since they happen mid-game, at level and menu changes and stuff. Really strange, never ever seen that before. I mean, at level changes in Super Darius II Wii VC, the image "recalibrates" video-wise ...like when the ship goes to sup-space to advance to the next level.

 

[Teknoman]

No, not all models do. I have a Sony Wega that has component inputs but displays in 480i.

Hmm...would a gamecube look just as running at 480i via component? Its not really a deal breaker or anything, just curious.

 

[jbueno]

Hmm...would a gamecube look just as running at 480i via component? Its not really a deal breaker or anything, just curious.

480i GC looks much better than using composite or S-Video, it looks great IMO, but no match to 480p on a capable 31.5 khz display. I've been blessed with witnessing F-Zero GX on such a display, it is a truly immersive experience.

Also nice guide you put there roge_nes, you covered most of what there is to know. Artemio's 240p tool is indeed a godsend, been using it for a while; remembered that I need to recalibrate my Wega though, I messed a bit with the service menu and didn't like the results.

 

[Teknoman]

480i GC looks much better than using composite or S-Video, it looks great IMO, but no match to 480p on a capable 31.5 khz display. I've been blessed with witnessing F-Zero GX on such a display, it is a truly immersive experience.

Also nice guide you put there roge_nes, you covered most of what there is to know. Artemio's 240p tool is indeed a godsend, been using it for a while; remembered that I need to recalibrate my Wega though, I messed a bit with the service menu and didn't like the results.

Cool, now i've just got to find a decent 19-25inch CRT with composite,component,s-video, and stereo audio out.

 

[Dion Blaster]

I have an old Emerson I found on CL that works pretty well, just noticed it's a little warped in the top corner though. Uses S-Video but no Component.

Found a 20" (perfect size for me, not too heavy) Wega on CL, if it supports component cables should I make the switch? Are Wega's that much better?

 

[jbueno]

I have an old Emerson I found on CL that works pretty well, just noticed it's a little warped in the top corner though. Uses S-Video but no Component.

Found a 20" (perfect size for me, not too heavy) Wega on CL, if it supports component cables should I make the switch? Are Wega's that much better?

Regardless of what some people think about RGB SCART and component video superiority, myself included, S-Video is good enough for most people, so if I were in your position I'd keep your Emerson set for now. Be on the hunt for a Sony PVM reference monitor though, RGB capable and much much better than what a consumer grade Wega could offer.

 

[Zing]

I've been on the HUNT for a Wega FV310 recently. I really wish these dumb people would all put the model numbers in their listings on craigslist! I'm considering traveling a ways to get the 32fv310 with stand that I'm dreaming of but there is a 36fv300 a little closer to me. Can anybody explain the difference between the 300 and the 310?

I suggest getting the 310. The major difference between the 310 and the 300, is the 310 has a high voltage regulator. On virtually every consumer TV, bright lines and scenes cause the image to "breathe", or get larger in the white parts. This distorts the image at even relatively low contrast settings. The power supply just cannot feed the CRT enough voltage to keep the beam stable with bright lines. The 310's high voltage regulator prevents this problem. Even at maximum contrast, my 310 does not distort lines on any image I feed it. It's amazing to see when you realize you have been dealing with that flaw for your whole life.

 

[Teknoman]

Another question about S-Video and the SNES/N64/Saturn:

Are there any specific cables that would be best, or would any brand work just fine?

 

[Jake Tower]

Another question about S-Video and the SNES/N64/Saturn:

Are there any specific cables that would be best, or would any brand work just fine?

SNES/N64 (and GameCube) use the same cable. I bought an official Nintendo s-video cable from their website when it was still in stock. I think I had bought a generic one before that that was shitty.

I bought a generic Saturn s-video cable from ebay, and it works fine.

 

[Dion Blaster]

Regardless of what some people think about RGB SCART and component video superiority, myself included, S-Video is good enough for most people, so if I were in your position I'd keep your Emerson set for now. Be on the hunt for a Sony PVM reference monitor though, RGB capable and much much better than what a consumer grade Wega could offer.

Turns out it doesn't have component cable inputs (at least according to the seller via email). Is SCART some enhanced version of RGB?

edit - oh and the Emerson I have is a flat screen CRT. Are there any pro's/con's that come along with them?

 

[Jake Tower]

Turns out it doesn't have component cable inputs (at least according to the seller via email). Is SCART some enhanced version of RGB?

SCART is an RGB format that was common in PAL territories. It is somewhat of a predecessor of HDMI as it is one connector that can carry both video and audio signals.

For consoles that output RGB natively, using a SCART cable is how to get that RGB video signal without having to mod the console.

 

[Johnny]

Turns out it doesn't have component cable inputs (at least according to the seller via email). Is SCART some enhanced version of RGB?

edit - oh and the Emerson I have is a flat screen CRT. Are there any pro's/con's that come along with them?

SCART is a connector type like RCA or BNC, it can carry anything from Composite to RGB. Having a SCART input doesn't necessarily mean your set is capable of receiving an RGB signal however.

 

[Dion Blaster]

SCART is an RGB format that was common in PAL territories. It is somewhat of a predecessor of HDMI as it is one connector that can carry both video and audio signals.

For consoles that output RGB natively, using a SCART cable is how to get that RGB video signal without having to mod the console.

Wait, so is standard RGB better than S-Video? I live in the USA so I've never heard of this SCART, sorry.
Basically I'm just trying to get the best possible image for my Wii's VC games.

edit - I'm an idiot, this whole time I've been confusing RGB and RWY.

 

[televator]

The best CRT? I hear the Sony PVM/BVM models are the holly grail.

 

[Ramune]

It is, in all rational honesty, the best monitor I have ever used for anything. Ever. Makes me wish I could run Crysis at 320x240 >_>

Managed to find this though: (Price reduced just for you!)

It's wise to be wary of used monitors of course; I took a leap of faith with my first one and it all worked out. Should you find one with a dirty speaker grill (like the one listed), a magic eraser fixes everything. They seem to post brand new sets every once in a while too, so good luck to you!

Holy Meatballs Batman! That's pretty much the EXACT monitor that I mentioned earlier, minus Olympus' branding (not surprising since it WAS Sony's monitor, Olympus just distributed it). Same buttons, ports and everything! There's NO info that I can find on the Olympus branded monitor, so your mini review of the Sony is great to hear!

Those connections are for 15khz RGB, i.e. exactly what you want.

Thanks, that's good to know! They still use these monitors for operations. I can see them in action and if they're good enough for watching a tube go down a patient's large intestine, it'll be awesome for my Sega!

And that video....pure video geek porn!

 

[Teknoman]

Just found a magnavox 20MS3442/17B with component, 2 composite, and svideo and stereo out. Its a flat crt but for 14.99 seems like a steal.

Its 60hz and 4:3.

 

[Flock]

Got a tight lil 14" pvm I'm using currently but all I have hooked up too it is my famicom. I only go back as far as the dreamcast and Ps2 with retro systems and I find running them through VGA / Upscaling looks great anyway. It's nice having the famicom running on the PVM though its quite a tidy lil looking setup i'll post some pics when I get home.

 

[IrishNinja]

Roge_NES, thanks for your post back there - had no idea there was such a calibration tool, if i ever sort out a good CRT i'll put that to good use!