Support NeoGAF

[Aeana]

I've read that Sebastion is straight only though?

And that's like saying it's okay for everyone in DA2 to be white, because it's easier than creating different racial character models for the Hawke family and the elves and dwarves.

By making everyone bi, they absolve themselves the responsibility of actually trying to write for a gay or lesbian audience.

Sebastian is barely a romance option. You can have intimate conversation with him, sort of, but as he is a member of the chantry, things don't really go very far at all.

I can see where you're coming from, certainly, but I still don't necessarily see it as lazy. Wanting reliable, believable characters makes perfect sense, and in most cases, I would probably be right there with you, but considering how popular the mod to make Alistair gay in Origins is, it doesn't really strike me as a bad thing. I really feel for my gay brethren who had to play female characters to have the relationship they wanted with Alistair. That said, if all of the dialog is exactly the same regardless of whether the person is male or female, then yes, that is most certainly lazy.

 

[Alucrid]

1) It shouldn't, but BAWWWW I'M BEING HIT ON BY A GUY! MY MASCULINITY! Shit, some people on GAF are offended by My Little Pony (notable: Jenga) so I'm not surprised like asses like the quoted OP are alive.
2) No, not really. Mostly because a) Most of the romance options are ham-fisted in typical Bioware fashion and b) No Wrex sex option in Mass Effect 1. FUCK YOU BIOWARE FOR THAT.

Wheew. I'm picking up so many innuendos.

 

[mollipen]

As a religious gamer, I feel aggrieved by the ability to have cosmo-sex outside of space-marriage at all.

I was just about to say that I'm totally up for the idea of adding concepts like marriage and monogamy (with penalties for breaking it) into games like this, but then I remembered that I'm the one that worked so hard to romance Liara only to run off and bone Garrus first chance I had.

 

[Data West]

Truth. Had towards the end of Mass Effect, at the point the romance normally culminates, one of your crew simply came up to you (who you had developed a strong friendship with) and had sex before the big, dangerous mission it would have been sincerely brilliant character storytelling and development.

I felt far more emotion reuniting with Wrex than any relationship in that game.

 

[Yasae]

Gaider makes a good point about straight normalcies occasionally creating a double standard - and going further, how few truly equal comparisons you could draw from those inequities. Obviously normal and common are not always mutually exclusive.

Their romances have been generally poor anyways...

 

[Suairyu]

Speaking of...

Forget the odd orientation questions. Why the hell can't you make a black character in Dragon Age?

To be honest, that's actually a case of brilliance. It isn't being colour blind about who this character would be genetically, where s/he was born. It's treating the topic of ethnicity as it should, more or less.

Such courage (and it no doubt took a ton of courage, given all their previous games allow you to select ethnicity) to say "no, your character wouldn't be black because that doesn't make any fucking sense given the setting and story" should be applied to sexuality as well.

I hope you don't expect to find them here.

I don't expect it anymore from Bioware, no. Doesn't mean I can't criticise them for regressing in their storytelling ability since Baldur's Gate II.

 

[DaBuddaDa]

In tandem with this, I've also felt that Final Fantasy XIII was built towards teenage girls moreso than the Straight Male Gamer. And I don't mean that in a necessarily negative way, just an honest observation.

 

[Yasae]

I was just about to say that I'm totally up for the idea of adding concepts like marriage and monogamy (with penalties for breaking it) into games like this, but then I remembered that I'm the one that worked so hard to romance Liara only to run off and bone Garrus first chance I had.

Can you bone somebody that boney?

Spoiler

Boney will not take offense to this

 

[TheSeks]

Wheew. I'm picking up so many innuendos.

Wasn't intended to be a fisting pun, but if you want to go that way...

Bioware's romances are so terribly done that I don't even care for which audience they write for. Their romances are little more then a three step quest:

1. Make flirty Comment
2. Say yes in a romantic scene
3. Fuck

That's it. What's sad is that Bioware seems to think that if you have sex in a game you also have a romance. What's even sadder is that they are the only company out there that even attempts to write anything involving romance.

This, pretty much. The romance options in Bioware games are outright terrible. I can't believe people, even "straight male gamers" like it. :/

 

[Data West]

Boney

 

[Patryn]

My only problem was that when Anders hit on me I had three choices:

- I want to fuck you right now!
- You're pretty cute!
- Get the fuck away from me you freak.

Since I didn't want to romance him, I took option three as it was the only one without a heart, and got hit with +10 to Rival.

Why couldn't there have been an option like "I'm flattered, but I'm not interested"?

 

[Suairyu]

In tandem with this, I've also felt that Final Fantasy XIII was built towards teenage girls moreso than the Straight Male Gamer. And I don't mean that in a necessarily negative way, just an honest observation.

It was every animé cliché in the book; it was designed to appeal to every Japanese teenager-and-younger.

This, pretty much. The romance options in Bioware games are outright terrible. I can't believe people, even "straight male gamers" like it. :/

They get to score where in real life they couldn't. All for listening to a member of the opposite sex moan for hours on end. Basically, Bioware might actually be geniuses in training the hopeless to friendzone themselves throughout life, leaving the non-hopeless a surplus of fishes in the sea.

 

[Data West]

My only problem was that when Anders hit on me I had three choices:

- I want to fuck you right now!
- You're pretty cute!
- Get the fuck away from me you freak.

Since I didn't want to romance him, I took option three as it was the only one without a heart, and got hit with +10 to Rival.

Why couldn't there have been an option like "I'm flattered, but I'm not interested"?

A 'lets just be friends' option would get you +20 rivalry

 

[JWong]

Isabella is exotic? She's not an alien or anything.

I'd put her in the same veins as Miranda, except a lot more dirty.

 

[Kinyou]

Did they?

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5016/5471084781_0d1ee23e4f_b.jpg[IMG]

booooooooooooooobs[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://www.qeep.de/blog/wp-content/uploads/daumen-hoch2.jpg

I'd be totally right behind beside her if you know what I mean

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Couldn't care less about removing them or having an option to disable them but do gay people really like the gay relationship options in this game other than appreciating that they made an effort? I saw some footage of the gay Anders thing and it didn't strike me as being especially, uhm, naturalistic.

 

[firehawk12]

Sebastian is barely a romance option. You can have intimate conversation with him, sort of, but as he is a member of the chantry, things don't really go very far at all.

I can see where you're coming from, certainly, but I still don't necessarily see it as lazy. Wanting reliable, believable characters makes perfect sense, and in most cases, I would probably be right there with you, but considering how popular the mod to make Alistair gay in Origins is, it doesn't really strike me as a bad thing. I really feel for my gay brethren who had to play female characters to have the relationship they wanted with Alistair. That said, if all of the dialog is exactly the same regardless of whether the person is male or female, then yes, that is most certainly lazy.

I feel like that's extremely problematic as well. I mean, you can't turn someone "straight" so why should it be okay to turn someone "gay"? Of course, games are games and people should be able to do whatever they want, but it's not like people rewrite movies or books like that (slash fic doesn't count ).

Write a compelling gay or lesbian character and have them available only to a player character of the corresponding gender and sexual orientation.

The real problem is that no one wants to write an overtly gay character. Probably exactly because it would turn off the "straight male gamer".

 

[Data West]

I feel like that's extremely problematic as well. I mean, you can't turn someone "straight" so why should it be okay to turn someone "gay"? Of course, games are games and people should be able to do whatever they want, but it's not like people rewrite movies or books like that (slash fic doesn't count ).

Write a compelling gay or lesbian character and have them available only to a player character of the corresponding gender and sexual orientation.

The real problem is that no one wants to write an overtly gay character. Probably exactly because it would turn off the "straight male gamer".

As a straight male gamer, I would say that Zevran was overly gay and he was my second favorite character in Origins.

 

[fernoca]

Wow.
Poor "straight male gamer"...I guess.

And this, is so true:

Bioware's romances are so terribly done that I don't even care for which audience they write for. Their romances are little more then a three step quest:

1. Make flirty Comment
2. Say yes in a romantic scene
3. Fuck

That's it. What's sad is that Bioware seems to think that if you have sex in a game you also have a romance. What's even sadder is that they are the only company out there that even attempts to write anything involving romance.

Like how in Mass Effect you sweat your ass trying to start a relationship with someone, then there's sex and that's it. They don't talk ever again. (though real life has been quite similar .. )

Oh wait!
As a "gay male gamer" I'm offended that I can't have, male-male relationship. Male Sheppard is straight, Female Sheppard can be straight, bi, lesbian.

I'm SO writing a thread about it!!!

 

[Femmeworth]

I was just about to say that I'm totally up for the idea of adding concepts like marriage and monogamy (with penalties for breaking it) into games like this, but then I remembered that I'm the one that worked so hard to romance Liara only to run off and bone Garrus first chance I had.

Garrus is a much more interesting character than Liara. Pursuing Liara was such a bore, though the end result was hilarious.

 

[wayward archer]

The fact that Bioware is thinks this is a major problem on that tells me exactly where their head is at... they are completely and totally fixated on their slash fan-fiction romance crowd over at the official forums.

Whether you like it or not they are going to make sure that those people (who are their "core" in the bioware creative staffs' eyes) enjoy all of their games first and foremost.

 

[Suairyu]

The real problem is that no one wants to write an overtly gay character. Probably exactly because it would turn off the "straight male gamer".

This is because most people wouldn't know how to write an overtly gay character. Most people in life don't recognise what being "overtly gay" is, if it is anything at all. Many of Gay/BiGAF can attest to hearing "oh you're gay/bi? I had no idea, you don't act it!" I cringe at the idea of Bioware writing a gay character as they feel a gay character should act.

 

[distantmantra]

1)Straight people: does including a gay romance option in a very obvious way (like it was done in DA2) bother you? Do you feel awkward or offended if a gay character in the game tries to hit on you?

Doesn't bother me one bit. However, it should handled respectfully as to not make the gay character nothing but a ridiculous stereotype.

 

[theRizzle]

I feel like that's extremely problematic as well. I mean, you can't turn someone "straight" so why should it be okay to turn someone "gay"? Of course, games are games and people should be able to do whatever they want, but it's not like people rewrite movies or books like that (slash fic doesn't count ).

Write a compelling gay or lesbian character and have them available only to a player character of the corresponding gender and sexual orientation.

The real problem is that no one wants to write an overtly gay character. Probably exactly because it would turn off the "straight male gamer".

Like I said on the last page, I wasn't planning on playing a gay character and I ended up romancing Zevran in DA:O. I guess that means he turned me gay? Or tricked me into it... I need a shower.

Seriously though, I thought he was well written and convincing enough for me to select him as a romance option over anyone else, and I knew at the first word out of his mouth that dude was gay. If that's not an overtly gay character, I don't know what is.

 

[Aeana]

I feel like that's extremely problematic as well. I mean, you can't turn someone "straight" so why should it be okay to turn someone "gay"? Of course, games are games and people should be able to do whatever they want, but it's not like people rewrite movies or books like that (slash fic doesn't count ).

Write a compelling gay or lesbian character and have them available only to a player character of the corresponding gender and sexual orientation.

The real problem is that no one wants to write an overtly gay character. Probably exactly because it would turn off the "straight male gamer".

That is where I am coming from. It's a video game, not a book or a movie - it's interactive. That makes it pretty different, I think, so while yes, it's a bit strange for everybody to be bisexual, it doesn't bother me because it facilitates more fantasies and doesn't interfere with mine in the least bit.

Having actual gay or lesbian characters would certainly be good, too, but I think there are a bunch of reasons why that doesn't happen, including what you mentioned.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

Of all the stuff that's wrong with DA2 this is probably the nit pickiest crap I've ever seen

 

[Patryn]

Wow.
Poor "straight male gamer"...I guess.

And this, is so true:

Like how in Mass Effect you sweat your ass trying to start a relationship with someone, then there's sex and that's it. They don't talk ever again. (though real life has been quite similar .. )

Oh wait!
As a "gay male gamer" I'm offended that I can't have, male-male relationship. Male Sheppard is straight, Female Sheppard can be straight, bi, lesbian.

I'm SO writing a thread about it!!!

Actually, I believe that Bioware at one point claimed that since Liara is an Asari, Shepard's not really being a lesbian.

That was their justification for no (other) same-sex relationships: Shepard isn't gay, despite the presence of Liara.

Like I said on the last page, I wasn't planning on playing a gay character and I ended up romancing Zevran in DA:O. I guess that means he turned me gay? Or tricked me into it... I need a shower.

Seriously though, I thought he was well written and convincing enough for me to select him as a romance option over anyone else, and I knew at the first word out of his mouth that dude was gay. If that's not an overtly gay character, I don't know what is.

I always saw Zevran as falling into the same category as Jack Harkness: An omni-sexual. If it's a self-aware being, he'd fuck it.

 

[firehawk12]

This is because most people wouldn't know how to write an overtly gay character. Most people in life don't recognise what being "overtly gay" is, if it is anything at all. Many of Gay/BiGAF can attest to hearing "oh you're gay/bi? I had no idea, you don't act it!" I cringe at the idea of Bioware writing a gay character as they feel a gay character should act.

Oh yeah, there's no such thing as an ephemeral gay quality/personality. Christ, as someone who inadvertently passes in both circles, don't I fucking know it. :lol

But at this point, I'd be happy with the lame imitation of Kurt from Glee because right now, they are writing straight characters and turning them gay/lesbian after the fact.

That is where I am coming from. It's a video game, not a book or a movie - it's interactive. That makes it pretty different, I think, so while yes, it's a bit strange for everybody to be bisexual, it doesn't bother me because it facilitates more fantasies and doesn't interfere with mine in the least bit.

I guess at that point it becomes a matter of pleasing the audience rather than trying to make a statement about equality or trying to genuinely represent sexuality.

Which is fair, because I've since learned that BioWare games are just as problematic as DudeBro shooters like Halo and CoD. It's pandering in the other direction.

 

[CrazyDude]

I really hate the way people obsess over romances in Bioware games. Romances to me should just be some extra thing that helps develop the characters in the game. However, the fans seem to think that the romance part is the focal point of the game. The fact that fans get angry if there is no sex scene, is kind of scary to me.

 

[fernoca]

I feel like that's extremely problematic as well. I mean, you can't turn someone "straight" so why should it be okay to turn someone "gay"? Of course, games are games and people should be able to do whatever they want, but it's not like people rewrite movies or books like that (slash fic doesn't count ).

Write a compelling gay or lesbian character and have them available only to a player character of the corresponding gender and sexual orientation.

The real problem is that no one wants to write an overtly gay character. Probably exactly because it would turn off the "straight male gamer".

That too.
I mean, imagine all the "drama" in Gears of War with Dom and Maria during the first 2 games, but instead of Maria it was his boyfriend or husband Luis or whatever; something more evocative than the usual "I'm gay because I have sex with men".

But in games, gay characters are usually either the flamboyant characters that has crushes with the main character or this empty vessels that are gay, because you have sex with other male characters.

And I can understand that they do it precisely because of the "straight male gamer" demographic, and the shock it may cause if characters don't go around announcing that they're gay.

Actually, I believe that Bioware at one point claimed that since Liara is an Asari, Shepard's not really being a lesbian.

That was their justification for no (other) same-sex relationships: Shepard isn't gay, despite the presence of Liara.

Haha..that's worst than I thought actually.
Then again, seeing the whole debacle that caused the "sexual acts" of the first game too, I don't blame the team for it.

At least they still put some "gay options" for their games, which is more that can be said of other developers.

 

[Data West]

I really hate the way people obsess over romances in Bioware games. Romances to me should just be some extra thing that helps develop the characters in the game. However, the fans seem to think that the romance part is the focal point of the game. The fact that fans get angry if there is no sex scene, is kind of scary to me.

Bioware bases achievements off romancing each character. I wouldn't say it's just the fanbase thinking this.

 

[Trickster]

Gotta say, crying about what romance options are available in a game is funny enough in and of itself. But to play DA2 and decide that the romance options are the thing big thing wrong with the game is just amazingly dumb.

 

[Sir Garbageman]

Has there ever been a decent video game romance?

 

[Hari Seldon]

Bioware should just say fuck it and turn dragon age into a dating sim. Too many people take this shit way too seriously.

 

[Gully State]

Bioware's romances are so terribly done that I don't even care for which audience they write for. Their romances are little more then a three step quest:

1. Make flirty Comment
2. Say yes in a romantic scene
3. Fuck

That's it. What's sad is that Bioware seems to think that if you have sex in a game you also have a romance. What's even sadder is that they are the only company out there that even attempts to write anything involving romance.

Thanks for summing up my thoughts on this. The romance in Bioware games are a gimmick. It's meaningless titillation for the sake of a bullet point.

 

[Xapati]

Well, not counting Japanese games anyway.

And let's face it, in video game time, it's like a few days between when you meet a party member and fuck them. These aren't anything resembling real relationships.

You have infinitely more time then in a movie, and movies seem to manage romance. No I do not buy this excuse.

The thing is, it isn't all that hard to write a decent romance, I'm not asking for Romeo and Juliette, certainly not as a first attempt.

Nate and Elena have been in TWO games and have only touched first base

I don't own a PS3. So I can't comment. The only game I know that actually does a good job at a romance is a module for Neverwinter Nights. If you own the platinum edition of NWN, I absolutely recommend this mod, it's a lot of work to get it installed but it's worth the effort. The link is

http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=modules.Detail&id=5027

And the reason it does romance well is because it gives you a lot of opportunities to show affection for the other character. Which is what the rest of games lack. There is never any opportunity to tease / hug / make-out with your romantic interest. Rarely any opportunity to care for them or cheer them up.
I swear Miranda never kissed me before she and I visited the engine room for a poorly animated sex scene. It was laughable.

 

[MaddenNFL64]

Has there ever been a decent video game romance?

Not sure what you can do in a 40 hour game, where maybe 2 of those are down time with companions. it works for what it is.

 

[CrazyDude]

Bioware bases achievements off romancing each character. I wouldn't say it's just the fanbase thinking this.

True, but it is the fan who want it and Bioware wants to sell it's games.

 

[Data West]

Has there ever been a decent video game romance?

Depends on if you mean an optional one or not.

Like I posted earlier, I really dig Nathan Drake and Elena Fisher. Jackie and Jenny from Darkness... Uhh. That's about it.

 

[Interfectum]

Has there ever been a decent video game romance?

I'd say Red Dead Redemption handled the concept of love and romance fairly well. I especially enjoyed the unspoken budding relationship between Bonnie and Jack.

 

[Data West]

I'd say Red Dead Redemption handled the concept of love and romance fairly well. I especially enjoyed the unspoken budding relationship between Bonnie and Jack.

and then that dumb wife had to ruin it

 

[NotebookJ2]

Don't have much interest in DA2 [Can't make black people? Meh.], but the person who wrote that particular post has some issues.

I think a lot of games could benefit from not targeting the "straight male gamer" if it means less crap plot and characters in future games, though not really saying that DA2 is one of those cases from what I can read...

ETA:

And the reason it does romance well is because it gives you a lot of opportunities to show affection for the other character. Which is what the rest of games lack. There is never any opportunity to tease / hug / make-out with your romantic interest. Rarely any opportunity to care for them or cheer them up.
I swear Miranda never kissed me before she and I visited the engine room for a poorly animated sex scene. It was laughable.

Weirdly enough Persona 3 and 4 let's you do something like this after you max out a girl's social link [and you actually ask them out in P4 unlike in P3 where everyone decides to go out with you regardless of whether or not you want to], you can spend the afternoon or day with them their room. Mind you, it doesn't show anything, it's just like one scene of the PC and the girl sitting in a room and really mostly implied of what really went on [I like to think they just had a happy hug] and it doesn't add anything gameplay wise but it was a nice touch I thought.

 

[Die Squirrel Die]

That is where I am coming from. It's a video game, not a book or a movie - it's interactive. That makes it pretty different, I think, so while yes, it's a bit strange for everybody to be bisexual, it doesn't bother me because it facilitates more fantasies and doesn't interfere with mine in the least bit.

Having actual gay or lesbian characters would certainly be good, too, but I think there are a bunch of reasons why that doesn't happen, including what you mentioned.

I know it's the in thing to be down on Bioware at the moment, but I have to say that I don't envy them, because no matter what position they take, somebody is going to feel that it's the wrong way to approach it. If characters have fixed sexualities then it's 'why can't I romance this person if I'm male/female', if it's everybody's bisexual it's 'that really unrealistic/patronising/offensive'.

At the very least they are trying to open up the representation of sexuality even if it's hamfisted. They're like the Will & Grace of gaming narrative.

 

[Fredrik]

I haven't played DA2 but I definitely thinks it's awkward in RPG's if a guy is hitting on me since I'm supposed to play the role as the character I'm playing since I think it's awkward in real life too.
I also never play as a female for the same reason. I'm a guy, why would I want to play the role as a female?

I don't think there is anything wrong if these options exists though. But maybe there should be an option during the character creation where you could choose gay/hetero?

 

[TheFightingFish]

Just look at the continual popularity of romance novels, and by this I'm also including the massive amount of romance novels with a thin veil of Space Opera or Elves with Swords stuck on top of them to appeal different groups.

People love romance, and in particular they love cheezy romance. Bioware knows that they don't have to worry about simulating real relationships. Just toss in some easy dialog options and a love triangle or two and folks will lap it up. I'm surprised that more western devs don't try to copy the template outright with slight variations for intended audiences.

 

[firehawk12]

You have infinitely more time then in a movie, and movies seem to manage romance. No I do not buy this excuse.

The thing is, it isn't all that hard to write a decent romance, I'm not asking for Romeo and Juliette, certainly not as a first attempt.

The problem is that 95% of all gameplay in western games is killing monsters/shooting foreigners. There's no room for even the most basic storytelling techniques found in a shitty romantic comedy film.

At least they still put some "gay options" for their games, which is more that can be said of other developers.

Yeah, but the real test would be someone to make one of these silly romance games where the protagonist is gay/lesbian and unapologetically so.

 

[Oneiroscope]

Why are these terrible romancing mechanics in these games in the first place?

 

[Alucrid]

I haven't played DA2 but I definitely thinks it's awkward in RPG's if a guy is hitting on me since I'm supposed to play the role as the character I'm playing since I think it's awkward in real life too.
I also never play as a female for the same reason. I'm a guy, why would I want to play the role as a female?

Funsies.

 

[antonz]

Honestly the most offensive thing romance wise in the game is how they approach the gay characters.

The Gay Characters in DA2 are basically stereotypes of what gay bashers typically spew about gays. Right after you meet anders he is basically ready to blow you. Right after you meet Fenris he is just about ready for some elf loving.

So the lesson DA2 teaches is Gay Men are down to fuck you at the drop of a dime. Meanwhile the actual self admitted whore in the game isn't that easy. None of the female characters are ready to drop the panties at the first meeting

 

[mollipen]

Bioware's romances are so terribly done that I don't even care for which audience they write for. Their romances are little more then a three step quest:

1. Make flirty Comment
2. Say yes in a romantic scene
3. Fuck

That's it. What's sad is that Bioware seems to think that if you have sex in a game you also have a romance. What's even sadder is that they are the only company out there that even attempts to write anything involving romance.

This post suddenly made me think of this. (Warning - cartoon bra)