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Black History Month: 1985 - Philadelphia drops bomb on black neighborhood, 11 dead

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Wilson Goode is African American. It wasn't a racist thing.

It was nothing racist, BTW. I'm not even sure this should be considered a Black History moment.

But I do not think that it was some sort of race war. The people who lived in that neighborhood were largely African American and they hated the MOVE group.

Not so much a racial conflict, but definitely some of the worst judgement from government officials in recent memory.

This is what I came here to post. Gaf gonna gaf though and turn this into white cops hate minorities thread. Again.

goddamnit...

For a lot of black Philadelphians of a certain vintage, like my mother, the swaggering, profanity-spewing Rizzo, the city's former police commissioner, was the face and brains of Philadelphia's brutal, aggressive police force. My mom recounted to me the time he arrested a group of Black Panthers, strip-searched them in public, and invited the press to cover the whole ordeal; photos of the naked, humiliated men were splashed across the pages of the local papers the next day.

And she told me about the time the police shot and killed her friend Ricky, who was a bystander during a shootout and had hidden beneath a nearby car for cover. There was the stuff she didn't witness: the melee that ensued after Rizzo sent hundreds of nightstick-wielding police officers to break up a peaceful demonstration of black high school and junior high school students who were protesting at the Board of Education building. ("Get their black asses!" he was widely quoted as saying during the fracas.) Or the fact that Philly cops were infamous for "turf drops" — instead of taking black folks they'd arrested to jail, they'd leave them in hostile, white ethnic neighborhoods across town.

The enmity that black folks in Philly had for the police department was deep-rooted, and Rizzo had helped sow the seeds. And during his mayoralty, he became even more emboldened. ("I'm gonna be so tough as mayor, I gonna make Attila the Hun look like a faggot," Rizzo was famously quoted as saying.) He was the city's mayor during the first MOVE siege in 1978; during his tenure, the Justice Department would file a lawsuit against the city's police department for brutality.​

--

On Aug. 8, 1978, the tension reached what seemed like its peak. Police tried to remove MOVE from the building with water cannons and battering rams and were met with gunfire from the building's basement. An officer named James Ramp fell to the ground and died. Sixteen other police officers and firefighters were injured.

After several hours of holding out, the MOVE folks finally surrendered and began trickling out of the basement one at a time. But the cops were livid over Ramp's killing. They went after Delbert Africa — the MOVE member who had been taunting them from the building — grabbed him by his dreadlocks and threw him to the ground. Several officers joined in, kicking and stomping him. That moment was captured on film by a Philadelphia Daily News photographer, and for many people, the police beating an unarmed, half-naked man was the showdown's lasting image.

Two years later, nine MOVE members were convicted of third-degree murder in Ramp's death and sentenced to 30 to 100 years in prison — the MOVE 9, they were called.​

http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswi...till-trying-to-make-sense-of-the-move-bombing

On that last point, MOVE claims Ramp was hit by friendly fire from the cops, but I can't think of any reason the police would lie.
 

Walpurgis

Banned
I mean really

50987d4ed093588ce0542bd34dbf5896.jpg
 

Soapbox Killer

Grand Nagus
It was more than just racism. If you talk/listen to the people were there, they had beef with MOVE for months before the fire. Arguments on the block. They had a bullhorn attached to the roof and used it to "speak to the neighborhood", which was black. It was deep.

The shoot out that happened in North was was insane.
 
This Mayor Rizzo character sounds like the spawn of hell.
Good grief.
"I'm gunna make Attila the Hun look like a faggot"
Man.
Edit: I see Philadelphia has a statue of the man on public grounds too, his infamy be damned
 

Walpurgis

Banned
This Mayor Rizzo character sounds like the spawn of hell.
Good grief.
"I'm gunna make Attila the Hun look like a faggot"
Man.
Edit: I see Philadelphia has a statue of the man on public grounds too, his infamy be damned
220px-RizzoStatue.JPG

Glorifying racists in typical post-racial American fashion.
 

Eidan

Member
I learned about this after watching Let the Fire Burn. Everyone owes it to themselves to watch it. It's on Netflix.
 

Malyse

Member
220px-RizzoStatue.JPG

Glorifying racists in typical post-racial American fashion.
I mean, in VA during my lifetime, Martin Luther King Jr. Day was called Lee, Jackson, King Day. As in Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson, the two most famous confederate generals. Though I'm certain that was heritage and not hate.
 

shintoki

sparkle this bitch
I mean, in VA during my lifetime, Martin Luther King Jr. Day was called Lee, Jackson, King Day. As in Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson, the two most famous confederate generals. Though I'm certain that was heritage and not hate.

I thought you were being sarcastic till I looked it up.


-_-
 
I mean, in VA during my lifetime, Martin Luther King Jr. Day was called Lee, Jackson, King Day. As in Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson, the two most famous confederate generals. Though I'm certain that was heritage and not hate.

I mean Confederate's Day is a state holiday in many southern states
 
I'd heard about this a few years ago. Iirc, it was from reading a white paleoconservative writer who was doing series of articles that were tied together under the theme of 'White, Christian ISIS'. Blew my mind.
 

Matsukaze

Member
It's kind of crazy how many people don't know about this in Philadelphia even. I didn't find out until a few years ago. Well into my 20's.

I wish I knew older people (both black and white) that were living in the city at the time to discuss it with further.

The conversation now is only, "Wow, that was fucked up."
It's depressing how easily recent history is brushed away. I learned about it when I was 13 or 14, not in school or from a tv program but because it just popped up in a random conversation about the Philadelphia PD my neighbors and my folks were having in my presence.

Since then, whenever it's come up again in conversation, I've found the typical response to it from others is a blank stare, followed by "The bombing of what?".
 

Walpurgis

Banned
I'd heard about this a few years ago. Iirc, it was from reading a white paleoconservative writer who was doing series of articles that were tied together under the theme of 'White, Christian ISIS'. Blew my mind.

LOL! Paleoconservative? Is that someone who is so conservative that they hearken back to the days of the dinosaurs?
 

spwolf

Member
I was just thinking about the MOVE bombings this morning. It's the most violent instance of police brutality in modern American history, but so few people know about the attack.

My parents, reporters in Philadelphia at the time, remember the incident quite well. While they only covered the protests and immediate reaction (most Philadelphians were actually horrified, and the outcry prevented Mayor Wilson Goode from winning reelection), their friend Sam was one of the first journalists on the scene. Last month, Sam told me about his experiences the day after the 1985 bombing. Philadelphia police, hoping to hide their dirty laundry, tried to hide the location of the former MOVE building. Osage Avenue had been so badly damaged by the fires that no addresses could be read, but Sam snuck past a police barrier to see a forensic crew digging through the remains of the MOVE headquarters. One of the men lifted up a sheet of metal, and underneath was the burned skull of a child.

Ramona Africa, one of the only survivors of the MOVE bombing, later worked with my parents and Sam pretty extensively. She would later spend seven years in prison for her involvement with MOVE, a nonviolent group.

so was it a violent or non violent group? A lot of other Philadelphians posted here how they were violent and nobody supported them.

Also, was mayor re-elected or not?

edit: he was re-elected and info in wiki states they were radical group that assaulted neighbors. Both him and Leo Brooks who run the raid were African-Americans. It probably did not help that Leo Brooks was Army general and that likely led to bombing response.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson_Goode
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_A._Brooks,_Sr.
 

Ovid

Member
so was it a violent or non violent group? A lot of other Philadelphians posted here how they were violent and nobody supported them.

Also, was mayor re-elected or not?

edit: he was re-elected and info in wiki states they were radical group that assaulted neighbors. Both him and Leo Brooks who run the raid were African-Americans. It probably did not help that Leo Brooks was Army general and that likely led to bombing response.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson_Goode
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_A._Brooks,_Sr.

The documentary doesn't mention anything about violence in either 1978 and 1985. Violence only occurred after the police got involved.

EDIT: In 1985 they started being a local nuisance. They even went as far as threatening their neighbors.
 

benjipwns

Banned
to be fair MOVE was basically a cult and had done a lot of nutty things over like a 15 year period beforehand, like changing everyone's last name to "Africa" and living in extreme squalor with many children; as well, everyone was taught that John Africa was their father and that they had all been reborn and were only 1 years old for some reason.
To be fair, being a nutty cult isn't a very good reason to have citizens bombed by their government.
 
Warning: fully tangential.

I'm a bit confused by the mention of the police having .50 and .60 caliber machine-guns. I'm guessing it was a journalist's mistake and they meant M60's? I don't think a police force (or National Guard, for that matter) has access to such a thing.

On topic: Fucking Christ.
 

Baron Aloha

A Shining Example
My uncle used to live in Philly. I sort of remember hearing about this. I was like 6 at the time.

Good on you OP for reminding me and informing others.
 

benjipwns

Banned
Warning: fully tangential.

I'm a bit confused by the mention of the police having .50 and .60 caliber machine-guns. I'm guessing it was a journalist's mistake and they meant M60's? I don't think a police force (or National Guard, for that matter) has access to such a thing.
Back then or nowadays?

edit: ha, same sheriff
 

Back then or nowadays?

edit: ha, same sheriff

Thank you, but you both linked me to police departments with .50 caliber machine-guns, which remains patently absurd (I have no idea why they think they need the things), but it's the bolded (.60-caliber) part that I was confused about.

I'm not aware of a .60-caliber machine-gun even existing in the US arsenal outside of experimental versions and aircraft cannons.

(Though, again, it's probably just someone thinking an M60 is .60-caliber due to confusing nomenclature, and completely irrelevant to the point, regardless. Just confused me, is all.)
 
People thinking the mayor being black prevents this from being a race issue must have never heard Stacey Dash, Ben Carson etc. speak

In addition to that, in the Frontline special, Goode says he takes responsibility but then continues to say that he "stands behinds those persons who made those decisions," and that he supports his Commissioner.

And then there is this explanation as to why it doesn't matter if Goode was white or black - this is the way we handle black people.

And as kame-sennin points out, the mayor won by the thinnest of margins. He can't really go against his police or fire commissioners, or risk loosing their support and the support of a large portion of the voting public.
 

TheJLC

Member
Thank you, but you both linked me to police departments with .50 caliber machine-guns, which remains patently absurd (I have no idea why they think they need the things), but it's the bolded (.60-caliber) part that I was confused about.

I'm not aware of a .60-caliber machine-gun even existing in the US arsenal outside of experimental versions and aircraft cannons.

(Though, again, it's probably just someone thinking an M60 is .60-caliber due to confusing nomenclature, and completely irrelevant to the point, regardless. Just confused me, is all.)

Yeah I don't understand the need for them either. I get .50 caliber sniper rifles for taking out armored vehicles, which civilians can own, for disabling large trucks, and for anti barricade situations. But a .50 cal machine gun? What requires a barrage of .50 cal rapid fire?
 
Yeah I don't understand the need for them either. I get .50 caliber sniper rifles for taking out armored vehicles, which civilians can own, for disabling large trucks, and for anti barricade situations. But a .50 cal machine gun? What requires a barrage of .50 cal rapid fire?

The really ridiculous part is they had a .50 caliber machine-gun and somehow felt they needed to resort to bombs and uncontrolled fire to resolve the situation. I seriously doubt MOVE's building, the bunker aside, was sufficiently hardened that a .50 wouldn't chew through it like tissue paper.

I mean, it's absurdly irresponsible to be firing a .50 in a residential neighborhood to begin with, but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt given claims MOVE was heavily armed and entrenched. Not being able to win the firefight in spite of having one, though? That seems pretty unlikely.
 

Yagharek

Member
Found out about this a few years ago, I think because a gaffer mentioned it in a post. Fucking insane.

In this context its surprising how many of these events are basically wiped from mainstream memory. And then mainstream discussion seems to focus on wondering why black people get upset when told to "get over it".

It's the same in australia, as in america. The methods and scale may differ, but its horrific how brutal they were treated and how recent events have already been forgotten in the wider consciousness.

This is the kind of event that should be on billboards to remind the country that its history wasn't all sunshine and roses. White people (like myself) need to recognise that even if they weren't responsible, they benefited from the misfortune of others and show some respect in return.
 

Yagharek

Member
The American Indian Movement also have some run ins with the FBI and similar sieges.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_Movement#Work_at_Pine_Ridge_Indian_Reservation

There's a lot of history that doesn't make it into the mainstream.

Indeed. At this point its almost worth assuming that you should take stock of all the bad things you know happened, then assume you know less than 10% of it in terms of number and magnitude of behaviour. I'm always shocked at how bad indigenous australians were treated, but never surprised to hear of some new horrible details. I now expect it happened, but it doesn't make it any less shocking if that makes sense.

What shocks me is that people now seem to struggle to show any empathy to the victims, be they indigenous people, or people who were imprisoned as slaves.
 

blakep267

Member
This Mayor Rizzo character sounds like the spawn of hell.
Good grief.
"I'm gunna make Attila the Hun look like a faggot"
Man.
Edit: I see Philadelphia has a statue of the man on public grounds too, his infamy be damned
Yeah. I remember stories from my mom. About how back then itd be common to get a beat down by the cops and get smacked in the head with a bully club
 
Yeah I don't understand the need for them either. I get .50 caliber sniper rifles for taking out armored vehicles, which civilians can own, for disabling large trucks, and for anti barricade situations. But a .50 cal machine gun? What requires a barrage of .50 cal rapid fire?

Many black people are impervious to bullets and can only be taken down in a hail of rapid fire .50 but only for a moment before their skin adapts.
 

Dead Man

Member
In this context its surprising how many of these events are basically wiped from mainstream memory. And then mainstream discussion seems to focus on wondering why black people get upset when told to "get over it".

It's the same in australia, as in america. The methods and scale may differ, but its horrific how brutal they were treated and how recent events have already been forgotten in the wider consciousness.

This is the kind of event that should be on billboards to remind the country that its history wasn't all sunshine and roses. White people (like myself) need to recognise that even if they weren't responsible, they benefited from the misfortune of others and show some respect in return.

Yeah, our cultural memory is incredibly patchy. I often wonder what has been forgotten in and about places that are less developed, or less well covered.
 
Wow, wtf. How come this isn't common knowledge?

Because if people knew the extent of the violent bigotry in this country, we'd have to acknowledge an elemental issue within American society. As it stands now with the way history, especially as it relates to minorities, is taught people can reference slavery in a banal way, be glad it's over and done with and act like we all are finally equals playing the same fair game.
 

blakep267

Member
so was it a violent or non violent group? A lot of other Philadelphians posted here how they were violent and nobody supported them.

Also, was mayor re-elected or not?

edit: he was re-elected and info in wiki states they were radical group that assaulted neighbors. Both him and Leo Brooks who run the raid were African-Americans. It probably did not help that Leo Brooks was Army general and that likely led to bombing response.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson_Goode
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_A._Brooks,_Sr.
I think it depends on who you ask. Some people say they were a radical group or militants

Others say they were just hippie people who were different. The didn't wash, ate different etc.
 
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