tonysidaway
Member
I don't see how you can seriously maintain that a holographic depiction of a woman, deliberately sold as property, isn't a misogynistic depiction of a woman.
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Blade Runner 2049 |OT| Do Androids Dream of Electric Boogaloo? [Unmarked Spoilers]
- Thread starter Mr. Sam
- Start date
I don't see how you can seriously maintain that a holographic depiction of a woman, deliberately sold as property, isn't a misogynistic depiction of a woman.
GillianSeed79
Member
Joi is integral because it ties into the central theme of what being human is, what freedom is. It could be that Joi is just following programming or it may be that she actually does love K. I think K at the end is not sure and there's a melancholy with that. I also think he feels kind of duped by Joi like how he was duped into believing he was the child. The important thing is he believed Joi loved him but after the revelation about the child he is not sure. He does the absolutely most human thing at the end though. He refuses to be just a machine and chooses to well make a choice, I.e. save Deckard. That's the first time he felt free/human. The film works on several levels and can be interpreted differently. That's what makes it great.
Warm Machine
Member
Yes. I agree, thats what makes art interesting and challenging. Complaining about these things misses the point.
To me the JOI plot took the humanity of AI to another place one step removed than before. K knew she was just a thing to be turned on and off and does so often but it didnt stop him from being attached and concerned about her. I also Iike the commentary on male loneliness that it brings.
The eyes motif throughout this movie is even stronger and more metaphorical than in the previous film. Once again the film effectively opens on an eye, but one without the reflections. Wallace is blind and while human is inhuman, the JOI hologram has dead black eyes suggesting that companionship and experience brings individual life to a person. The one eyed lady I think serves the purpose that a blade runner ripped her eye out like K did at the start with Sapper. Rachels eyes are the wrong color to Deckard and breaks the illusion for him.
Watched it a second time.
This movie was really stuck in my head, so I figured I just had to watch it again before it left the theaters. On second watch everything seemed to flow smoothly and the pacing even felt quicker. I guess it's better once you know what to expect and your preconceived expectations are gone. What I noticed even more is truly how absolutely gorgeous it is. All of the cityscapes shots are pretty much incredible and after giving BR a rewatch of its own a few days ago I really have to say they're better than the ones in the original.
Some stuff I still find kinda clunky like the several bouts of heavy-handed exposition but overall it's really a serious achievement that it was made in the first place this way. It's really true to the spirit of what a Blade Runner movie should be.
Random thoughts:
This movie was really stuck in my head, so I figured I just had to watch it again before it left the theaters. On second watch everything seemed to flow smoothly and the pacing even felt quicker. I guess it's better once you know what to expect and your preconceived expectations are gone. What I noticed even more is truly how absolutely gorgeous it is. All of the cityscapes shots are pretty much incredible and after giving BR a rewatch of its own a few days ago I really have to say they're better than the ones in the original.
Some stuff I still find kinda clunky like the several bouts of heavy-handed exposition but overall it's really a serious achievement that it was made in the first place this way. It's really true to the spirit of what a Blade Runner movie should be.
Random thoughts:
- On second watch the rebellion angle kind of stuck out as a not-all-that-subtle setup at a potential sequel. It comes out of nowhere and goes in pretty much the same direction.
- For my money I think K is definitely dead at the end. I made sure to pay attention to his breathing. He goes from rather agitated to completely still. I guess this could be easily retconned in a sequel though.
- Curious note, the Soviet Union is alive and well in this universe. Noticed one of the holograms was made in the CCCP.
- Robin Wright's character is kinda half-baked, I didn't really get a sense of what her real motivations were for anything at all.
- The slowest part of the movie is definitely the child slaver~memorymaker section.
- This movie is really pretty jesuschrist.
KraftyKrankins
Member
Good to know. That was one of the few issues I had with it.
Technosteve
Banned
we are just bags of water hurdling through space
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
Funnily enough, people who complained about the pace in the first film also seem to think that on a second viewing the movie's quicker.
Can't wait to see it again this weekend.
SixMachine
Member
Yea I loved the scene at the orphanage where he said, "Hey kid, want a toothpick?"
Razorback
Member
Too bad he never got to be a real human bean.
balgajo
Member
Watched it a second time.
This movie was really stuck in my head, so I figured I just had to watch it again before it left the theaters. On second watch everything seemed to flow smoothly and the pacing even felt quicker. I guess it's better once you know what to expect and your preconceived expectations are gone. What I noticed even more is truly how absolutely gorgeous it is. All of the cityscapes shots are pretty much incredible and after giving BR a rewatch of its own a few days ago I really have to say they're better than the ones in the original.
Some stuff I still find kinda clunky like the several bouts of heavy-handed exposition but overall it's really a serious achievement that it was made in the first place this way. It's really true to the spirit of what a Blade Runner movie should be.
Random thoughts:
- On second watch the rebellion angle kind of stuck out as a not-all-that-subtle setup at a potential sequel. It comes out of nowhere and goes in pretty much the same direction.
- For my money I think K is definitely dead at the end. I made sure to pay attention to his breathing. He goes from rather agitated to completely still. I guess this could be easily retconned in a sequel though.
- Curious note, the Soviet Union is alive and well in this universe. Noticed one of the holograms was made in the CCCP.
- Robin Wright's character is kinda half-baked, I didn't really get a sense of what her real motivations were for anything at all.
- The slowest part of the movie is definitely the child slaver~memorymaker section.
- This movie is really pretty jesuschrist.
Really?!? I just came here to post about how I'm having thoughts of watching it again. I'm not the only crazy person here.
Even in my first viewing, I don't think the pace is glacial, at all. Methodical, yes, but not slow. There is always some detail to be observed and admired.
Not only I can't wait to see it again in 2D face-melting IMAX, but also to add the eventual 4K Blu-ray to my collection. Whatever the collector's edition they'll come up with.
Not only I can't wait to see it again in 2D face-melting IMAX, but also to add the eventual 4K Blu-ray to my collection. Whatever the collector's edition they'll come up with.
This was my experience with the original Blade Runner and 2049. 2nd viewing of 2049 last night felt like the film was moving much faster. By the time we got to Deckard I was like holy shit, its already been 2 hours?
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
Watched it a second time.
This movie was really stuck in my head, so I figured I just had to watch it again before it left the theaters. On second watch everything seemed to flow smoothly and the pacing even felt quicker. I guess it's better once you know what to expect and your preconceived expectations are gone. What I noticed even more is truly how absolutely gorgeous it is. All of the cityscapes shots are pretty much incredible and after giving BR a rewatch of its own a few days ago I really have to say they're better than the ones in the original.
Some stuff I still find kinda clunky like the several bouts of heavy-handed exposition but overall it's really a serious achievement that it was made in the first place this way. It's really true to the spirit of what a Blade Runner movie should be.
Random thoughts:
- On second watch the rebellion angle kind of stuck out as a not-all-that-subtle setup at a potential sequel. It comes out of nowhere and goes in pretty much the same direction.
- For my money I think K is definitely dead at the end. I made sure to pay attention to his breathing. He goes from rather agitated to completely still. I guess this could be easily retconned in a sequel though.
- Curious note, the Soviet Union is alive and well in this universe. Noticed one of the holograms was made in the CCCP.
- Robin Wright's character is kinda half-baked, I didn't really get a sense of what her real motivations were for anything at all.
- The slowest part of the movie is definitely the child slaver~memorymaker section.
- This movie is really pretty jesuschrist.
I already agree with all your bullet points but I definitely want to see it again.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
One thing I appreciated was that this movie showed how sprawled out LA was.
People might be urbanizing more in the future but realistically American cities sans NYC will still have miles upon miles of shitty sprawl. This style of infrastructure is gonna be around for hundreds of years, decrepit or not.
People might be urbanizing more in the future but realistically American cities sans NYC will still have miles upon miles of shitty sprawl. This style of infrastructure is gonna be around for hundreds of years, decrepit or not.
Watched it a second time.
This movie was really stuck in my head, so I figured I just had to watch it again before it left the theaters. On second watch everything seemed to flow smoothly and the pacing even felt quicker. I guess it's better once you know what to expect and your preconceived expectations are gone. What I noticed even more is truly how absolutely gorgeous it is. All of the cityscapes shots are pretty much incredible and after giving BR a rewatch of its own a few days ago I really have to say they're better than the ones in the original.
Some stuff I still find kinda clunky like the several bouts of heavy-handed exposition but overall it's really a serious achievement that it was made in the first place this way. It's really true to the spirit of what a Blade Runner movie should be.
Random thoughts:
- On second watch the rebellion angle kind of stuck out as a not-all-that-subtle setup at a potential sequel. It comes out of nowhere and goes in pretty much the same direction.
- For my money I think K is definitely dead at the end. I made sure to pay attention to his breathing. He goes from rather agitated to completely still. I guess this could be easily retconned in a sequel though.
- Curious note, the Soviet Union is alive and well in this universe. Noticed one of the holograms was made in the CCCP.
- Robin Wright's character is kinda half-baked, I didn't really get a sense of what her real motivations were for anything at all.
- The slowest part of the movie is definitely the child slaver~memorymaker section.
- This movie is really pretty jesuschrist.
You and I had the same reaction to the movie the first time and the second time! I completely agree with your assessment
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
Yeah he was awful, not him but the character. I would have cut all his scenes out. Have a single scene to show Luv gets orders from the boss, from a a blank wall a la Oz, and let her handle the rest. It would have allowed her character to be developed further, while providing the same needed information he inferred anyway. You can't have him yapping his mouth taking all that slow screen time, and then disappear.
Sebastian is a dumb genius, he's Isodore from Electric Sheep. He's supposed to have horrible social skills, he's supposed to come off as cringey awkward. The Gaff line, yeah.
Atraveller
Banned
Dialogue wise, the first movie wasn't terribly subtle either.
Sebestian introducing himself by his initials, and brought up his job unprompted. Movie playing Gaff's line again when Deckard picked up his origami, even though Gaff said it just moments ago.
Sebestian introducing himself by his initials, and brought up his job unprompted. Movie playing Gaff's line again when Deckard picked up his origami, even though Gaff said it just moments ago.
Bucket Mouse
Member
Glad you warmed to it a bit more, jett.
The film is masterful.
I regret catching Ghost on TV a few days before seeing 2049 because I couldn't unsee Swayze, Goldberg and Moore during the three-way sex scene.
The film is masterful.
I regret catching Ghost on TV a few days before seeing 2049 because I couldn't unsee Swayze, Goldberg and Moore during the three-way sex scene.
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
Yup, Wallace was definitely weak. Like I said, I really wish they had gone ruthless corporate type much more than ruthless weirdo playing God type (who just happens to run a corporation). Like, Wallace should have been written as the most recognizably human character to the audience because his sort of cut throat ambition is wholly evident today. A missed opportunity to make him a truly memorable antagonist imo.
Yeah, I think Joi acted as a very good thematic counterpoint. We're taking for granted without question that replicants are conscious human-equivalent entities going into the film. Joi, being a hologram, takes you a step back and reminds you that even if it looks, acts, and feels real, doesn't mean you should take for granted, and without scrutiny that it is, in fact, real.
But I also think the hologram just didn't really fit in to the bladerunner world. I was hoping the film was going to be more of a straight-up action film, which was what a lot of people were expecting of the first film when it came out. I was really hoping this film was about Ryan Gosling chasing down a new crop of weird-ass psychotic replicants in crazy costumes with special unique talents. I wanted more of the Kris and Roy type characters. With the exception of Luv, we didn't get that.
Humanity wasn't expanding fast enough for Wallace's ambitions ("Only 9 planets") and he wanted to unlock the secret that Tyrell cracked- replicant reproduction. If he could learn it, he could "mass produce" replicants for the first time in history and provide the "millions" needed for mankind to expand throughout the galaxy and become "trillions."
It's a mix of a personal god-complex and a more general ambition to see humanity become gods as a race.
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
Joi could have been a personal assistant provided by the police, like a really advanced version of the Esper in BR1 that Deckard talks to in his apartment, or some human-like version of the MKII in Snatcher. I was expecting his little drone to start talking at any moment when at the farm early on.
/imagines BR2049 with Metal Gear MKII instead of Joi.
What I got from the film alone (there's more if you watch the shorts) was:
Wallace had a god complex. He was trying to push humanity forward by using his replicants to concquor the universe.
He couldn't produce them fast enough. The process was complicated, seemingly very delicate, and resources limited. A much more efficient solution that would also give him the numbers to achieve his vision was to emulate Tyrell's success with Rachel. If replicants could reproduce he could generate the numbers he required.
Edit: late to the party!
I saw the film earlier today and was very impressed. However, there were a couple aspects of the film that made me pause.
To sum it up, I felt that this was a very unorthodox way to follow up the original Blade Runner. To me, Blade Runner is a story about the conflict between Humans and Replicants, serving as a metaphor for any historically mistreated minority group, and the nature of empathy and emotions. Roy and Deckard represent the two halves (Deckard is a Human btw and I was very happy that 2049 basically made this a nonissue) and their relationship is the core of the film. I consider Rachel and her storyline to be the B story that compliments the main one.
It was odd then for me to step into 2049 and see that this B story (which, again, is still significant in its own way and very much important to the themes of the original) is the lead-in to the sequel. It would be like if a hypothetical sequel to 2049 came out and everything about the hinted Replicant uprising (which is what I thought this movie would center itself around) is put off in favor of a followup on the Joi/K relationship. Not necessarily a bad thing, but definitely required a readjustment of expectations. I didn't expect there to be so little "retiring" going on in a film called Blade Runner.
Still a fantastic movie, and I was especially touched by all the water/birthing/penetration imagery and symbols used throughout the film. Can't wait to see it again!
To sum it up, I felt that this was a very unorthodox way to follow up the original Blade Runner. To me, Blade Runner is a story about the conflict between Humans and Replicants, serving as a metaphor for any historically mistreated minority group, and the nature of empathy and emotions. Roy and Deckard represent the two halves (Deckard is a Human btw and I was very happy that 2049 basically made this a nonissue) and their relationship is the core of the film. I consider Rachel and her storyline to be the B story that compliments the main one.
It was odd then for me to step into 2049 and see that this B story (which, again, is still significant in its own way and very much important to the themes of the original) is the lead-in to the sequel. It would be like if a hypothetical sequel to 2049 came out and everything about the hinted Replicant uprising (which is what I thought this movie would center itself around) is put off in favor of a followup on the Joi/K relationship. Not necessarily a bad thing, but definitely required a readjustment of expectations. I didn't expect there to be so little "retiring" going on in a film called Blade Runner.
Still a fantastic movie, and I was especially touched by all the water/birthing/penetration imagery and symbols used throughout the film. Can't wait to see it again!
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
Wallace motivation was utilitarianism to advance humanity in his opinion. While he wants Replicants to be able to reproduce, and the rebellion also want this, it's clear that he wants it for different reasons, which is just being more efficient at producing goods for colonization. Imagine selling these babies to the best bidder. His character is a mirror to the guy who owns all those kids. They might be doing important work for society, but at what cost?
tonysidaway
Member
One of us! One of us!
Yooooooo
Okay my perception of that scene has risen several notches now
Also, as a followup to my post above, was anyone else a little disappointed to see that the VK test sidelined for the eyeball-codes? I know that the baseline testing at the police station essentially served the same function, but it makes the VK test seem overly complicated in retrospective when the barcode-scanner solution seems like such a no-brainer.
The thing is, this goes without saying. As many people have mentioned throughout this thread, the entire BR universe is exploitative. Against women, against children, against machines, against the earth, all in the service of greed and control.
The question I would like to ask is, so what? What lies beneath that misogyny? Who are the characters that are birthed into this world without choice? How do they reconcile with their nature of being tools for exploitation? What are their stories and journeys? We can't know any of this if we dismiss the whole endeavour right off the bat. 2049 shows us there is beauty even in the bleakest and darkest of circumstances. That there is hope for salvation through action, even if they are tiny gestures in the grand scheme of things. That is no small takeaway.
In that sense, K's arc through 2049 captures the essence of Philip K. Dick's core theme. There's a great Ursula K. Le Guin essay called "The Modest One" in which she championed PKD's work - she ends looking at one of his book, The Martian Time Slip:
Of course there is a risk that some may glorify and romanticize the exploitation in this world. But I hope more people will take the Blade Runner universe as a dark mirror, a cautionary tale, a meditation on the choices we as a society must make so we don't end up there.
I feel like I really shouldn't even have to say this, but it is 2017, and here we are.
Alright. Just left the cinema. Very first thought that came to mind...
And then the second thought that comes to mind is your answer to your first.. a fantastic movie!
I bet you think The Handmaid's Tale is the most sexist thing ever created
No, the whole point is that she is proof of K's having individuality and an inner life apart from his programming - the 'soul' that his boss said he didn't have - and making JOI just another part of his job would destroy that.
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
VK too slow for modern audiences, must HYPERCHARGE it!
But seriously, you'd think an eye transplant would be an easy cop out considering they are, you know, lab-grown beings, and BR1 had eyes grown in chew's lab. Kind of a silly shortcut, apparently brushed away by the fact that the old lady never got her eye replaced so we have to assume it's not possible somehow. Another bit lost to the black out I guess!
I liked it a lot. I just have no idea how I could go back in time by three hours and try to explain to myself what I was about to watch.
They know K is a replicant. They don't need to spend 20-30 cross referenced questions figuring out if he is or not.
The eyeball codes were clearly a part of Wallace's upgraded "safer" designs. Seems like a natural step in the evolution of their product right?
This is a beautiful post
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
Nah that's already accomplished by him deciding to save Deckard and help him meet his daughter.
I'm saying any replicant could just replace their eyeball, going by BR1's world.
VisceralBowl
Member
Eyeball codes were around for Tyrell's later replicants.
VK determines if somebody is a replicant. The new test already assumes you're a replicant. Different purposes.
Dark_3nergy
Member
I am making plans to watch it again this Friday
This isn't BR1's world. It's 30 years later post blackout.
Different time and place.
itwasTuesday
He wasn't alone.
Saw it today.
Yoooo this movie was loud. Wore iem's the entire time. No reason for the this.
Yoooo this movie was loud. Wore iem's the entire time. No reason for the this.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Then why does Luv say they were "harder to spot back then"?
If Nexus 6 had serial eyeball numbers then there wouldn't need to be a test.
I'm probably missing something but just asking.
VisceralBowl
Member
The 2022 prequel gave Tyrell's replicants eyeball codes. They're not using Nexus 6 at that point. I think it's 8 but I'm not sure.
Later as in "post-BR1"
Probably due to the fact that a replicant killed one of the most powerful men on Earth, presumably.
Ah, I must have missed that. I figured it was a part of Wallace's safer models given his presentation in his short.
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
I'm kidding anyway, I don't care. Just saying I think they did it this way to make it quick.
But I also think it's a downgrade narratively speaking. An interrogation-based system, which could potentially be fooled, seemed like a more paranoia-inducing way of doing it. "Have you ever retired a human by mistake?", who is really a replicant or isn't? How trustworthy is the machine, its makers, its tester? Also not being able to just force someone to tell you if they were or not through force.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah, I think that the ones in the 2022 prequel are Nexus 8.
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