beato_angelico
Member
I don't understand what one has to do the other, unless you want to go down the "see, every typical european food is a scam" route
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Bloomberg: some grated parmesan sold on market has 0% parmesan, up to 8% wood-pulp
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I don't understand what one has to do the other, unless you want to go down the "see, every typical european food is a scam" route
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Or fish authenticity.
GoldenEye 007
Member
Well they have to do with each other because customers trying to buy legit crap are getting scammed. So yes it is a problem in the US with this cheese and it is a problem in Europe with the olive oil situation.
And why not call out the poster just a couple before yours with the "typical America" crap? I'm also not sure how olive oil translates to "every typical European food."
Pennywise83
Banned
Completely different and unrelated situations. Here, we have companies selling not Parmesan cheese under the Parmesan label ON TOP OF selling cheese with no cheese at all or below declared percentages. In Europe, some companies were selling bad olive oil products trying to scum customers - they were infringing regulations and not the norm.
PdotMichael
Banned
Of course, the suspicion of selling virgin olive oil as extra virgin olive oil is totally on par with selling cheeses which contain wood-pulp as Parmesan!
Europe so butthurt!
Europe so butthurt!
GoldenEye 007
Member
And everyone is still getting scammed. So close enough for me.
Edit: The olive oil thing isn't purely about virgin and not. It's also about mixing non-olive oils too. And again, where the hell did anyone say butthurt Europe other than you? You're reading into stuff that doesn't exist.
Pennywise83
Banned
What you're implying is, then, not having a regulation at all? Because regulating these things help to avoid such situations - they might still happen like people still kill even if there's a penalty for that. Going against a regulation and simply doing what you want because there's no one checking things working properly are two different things.
GoldenEye 007
Member
What? I'm saying people are being scammed. So of course there should be regulation!
If the usage of Parmesan has been an issue in the US (I didn't know it was), then yes, that should be addressed. Along with products not meeting the definition of cheese or adding ingredients not labeled on the package. I know the use of Champagne has been an issue or Bourbon too. Cutting olive oil with other crap should also be shut down. Selling honey that isn't labeled properly should be shut down. Maple syrup, fish, and everything else that we are being lied to or mislead about.
This.
Also, if the US chooses not to respect the protected products of other countries, why should we respect their protected products?
A bit off topic but I just found out that Parmigiano and a lot of other cheeses actually are not vegetarian.
The problem is exactly that what barely represents Parmesan in the states is actually being marketed as Parmesan. Alternatively, cheeses that are Parmesan but are not created in the Parma region are also being called Parmesan when they should be titled something else.
In the current age, that everyone knows the cheeses by their authentic names (Parmesan) just like they know wines from the champagne region (champagne). The cheese lobby has been fighting recently against the use of geographical indicators (a very specialized branch of IP law) because they don't want to call their authentic Parmesan cheese not created in parma "Rockfort Sweet Cheese", they want to call it Parmesan. As has already been pointed out, calling shredded cheese "Parmesan" when it has no Parmesan in it allows companies to get additional value for their product that it does not deserve, as people would undoubtedly pay less if they knew what they were buying is not actually Parmesan cheese.
And to top it all off, the only reason we know these things by their authentic names is because we have been inappropriately using them for a number of years. The reason why issues with naming are coming back to the forefront is due to the fact that every major trade agreement being signed nowadays includes massive IP provisions, and countries like France and Italy who have been fighting for the ability to claim sole ownership over their geographical indicators are attempting to include provisions in these trade agreements to essentially revest themselves of what has been taken from them. Since America is often a key player in any IP negotiation, this creates a schism as large industries hold incredible sway over policy makers, which ends up putting (often European) national interests against private (American) interests
Sorry to sound like such an IP nerd, but the law in the area is fascinating and has been something i've been interested in for a long time.
There is no want to - they do in Europe at least. Do those regulations just get ignored in the US?
I can understand it for things like Parma Ham, where there is a place name associated with the product, so this has to be made there to call it that. I assume that is the reasoning for Parmesan too.
In the UK these generic tubs of grated stuff are just sold as 'grated hard Italian cheese' because they don't contain real Parmesan. That seems fine to me - if you're buying the cheap tubs for convenience (we usually have them in the cupboard) then do you really care if it is Parmesan? We buy blocks of the real stuff when the taste matters.
QuicheFontaine
Member
No, Cyan is right. It's genericized in Australia and the US.
Europe - obviously not.
I'm one of those philistines that buys "grated Italian hard cheese (wink wink)" anyway.
It gets fairly common even outside the US. Let's look at the ingredient list of Morrisons Value Cheese Singles
Partially Reconstituted Whey Powder, Palm Oil, Milk Proteins, Cheese (11%), Emulsifying Salts (Sodium Polyphosphate, Calcium Phosphate, Trisodium Phosphate), Salt, Flavouring, Colours (Beta-Carotene, Paprika Extract)
11% cheese in my cheese! At that point, they should just put quotes around cheese or call it a cheese-flavoured slice.
Partially Reconstituted Whey Powder, Palm Oil, Milk Proteins, Cheese (11%), Emulsifying Salts (Sodium Polyphosphate, Calcium Phosphate, Trisodium Phosphate), Salt, Flavouring, Colours (Beta-Carotene, Paprika Extract)
11% cheese in my cheese! At that point, they should just put quotes around cheese or call it a cheese-flavoured slice.
Vampirolol
Member
I live in Parma and even here if you buy grated cheese it tastes like ass. Just go with the good old way, always.
Regarding the "parmesan" being a specific kind of grana, there's a very big difference in quality control between a "Parmigiano Reggiano" and a "Grana Padano" (generic grana cheese), the real parmesan is in fact as natural as it can get and follows a different process.
Regarding the "parmesan" being a specific kind of grana, there's a very big difference in quality control between a "Parmigiano Reggiano" and a "Grana Padano" (generic grana cheese), the real parmesan is in fact as natural as it can get and follows a different process.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Described accurately by Lee Evans as "essence of puke".
ITT: americans can't fathom the importance on protecting food origin.
If you want to copy food, go on, nobody stop you, but don't call it the same thing cause it's not. It may be even better but it's not. You're deliberately casting a bad light on our productors who live by selling an high quality product. Fuck off and call it whatever else you like.
Fucking stupid US Food industry garbage. I dread the day that "free" trade (aka kill every food industry which is not from billionaire corps because reasons) will bring here american shitty foods and ruin our health.
If you want to copy food, go on, nobody stop you, but don't call it the same thing cause it's not. It may be even better but it's not. You're deliberately casting a bad light on our productors who live by selling an high quality product. Fuck off and call it whatever else you like.
Fucking stupid US Food industry garbage. I dread the day that "free" trade (aka kill every food industry which is not from billionaire corps because reasons) will bring here american shitty foods and ruin our health.
User 479360
Banned
How is this even allowed?
Makes me glad I don't eat cheese.
Makes me glad I don't eat cheese.
unfortunately (for the vegetarians out there, I personally don't give a squat) actual rennet allows much better quality than vegetal or microbial rennet. this is an universal rule of thumb: food made with animals is tastier.
tasty or ethical: pick only one.
frankie_baby
Member
They banned calling them shaker things Parmesan here in the UK, since then they've disappeared from people's kitchen cupboards, you can just about still buy themn (as Italian hard cheese) but almost no one does any more
Edit - except Mrklaw it seems
Edit - except Mrklaw it seems
FunkyDealer
Banned
I didn't even know Parmesan was sold grated.
Well, I suppose it isn't.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
But why can't I call it Parmesan cheese?
Well, protected designation of origin (PDO) and protected geographical indication (PDI) are hugely important for producers. This is one area I'm familiar with it due to my family working in agriculture. Both PDO and PDI-branded goods are grown, raised and/or produced in controlled fashion according to clear quality standards. PDO and PDI certificates are not issued at random, but only to regions that happen to produce goods of particularly high quality or reputation.
A wine from La Rioja is much more than fermented grape juice from a particular region of Spain. It is made from an officially sanctioned variety of grapes in controlled quantities and aged at well defined ranges at a number of towns. It's a relatively complex and stringent regulatory system that allows for consistent quality assurance and reviewing. Nevertheless, La Rioja wineries have to fight with a number of foreign producers that claim to sell "Rioja wines", when in reality it's just terrible plonk that damages the brand and dilutes the value of authentic Rioja wines.
Even more outrageously, there's the case of unscrupulous Spanish, Italian and even Chinese pig farmers selling substandard cured hams as Jamón Ibérico, when actual Ibérico has a vastly superior taste, texture and aroma owed to the breed of the pigs, a nutrition based on acorns and vigorous physical exercise, which makes for a ham unlike any other, with bright red meat and incredibly soft and thin layers of marbled fat that melt at room temperature. Those fake ibéricos come from industrial farms and they are not subject to the same veterinary inspections as proper ones, which is not a joke. We are talking about cured meats after all, which means that there's a health risk on top of a fraud.
Similarly, some people have been trying to pass terrible Eastern European truffles as Italian and Spanish black ones, when the difference in quality is staggering accounting to soil and climate.
Basically, PDO and PDI are much more than just a brand or a luxury halo. They ensure consistent quality and standards. As a matter of fact, producers from a PDO/PDI region that decide to break regulations will lose their certification and risk severe fines in accordance.
As for the Italian oil fraud, that's a different issue since it involves both the FDA and Italian authorities. The EU is relatively clear on this subject, but Italy has its own problems enforcing the law since they are dealing with activities closely related to the organised crime. I'm outraged at a personal level by the amount of thieving companies buying Spanish oil, bottling them in Italy (or even elsewhere!) and then selling them at exorbitant prices in other countries as "premium Italian oil", which is a well known issue. Next time buy from an tested Italian brand or just buy some good Spanish one. One is not better than the other.
Well, protected designation of origin (PDO) and protected geographical indication (PDI) are hugely important for producers. This is one area I'm familiar with it due to my family working in agriculture. Both PDO and PDI-branded goods are grown, raised and/or produced in controlled fashion according to clear quality standards. PDO and PDI certificates are not issued at random, but only to regions that happen to produce goods of particularly high quality or reputation.
A wine from La Rioja is much more than fermented grape juice from a particular region of Spain. It is made from an officially sanctioned variety of grapes in controlled quantities and aged at well defined ranges at a number of towns. It's a relatively complex and stringent regulatory system that allows for consistent quality assurance and reviewing. Nevertheless, La Rioja wineries have to fight with a number of foreign producers that claim to sell "Rioja wines", when in reality it's just terrible plonk that damages the brand and dilutes the value of authentic Rioja wines.
Even more outrageously, there's the case of unscrupulous Spanish, Italian and even Chinese pig farmers selling substandard cured hams as Jamón Ibérico, when actual Ibérico has a vastly superior taste, texture and aroma owed to the breed of the pigs, a nutrition based on acorns and vigorous physical exercise, which makes for a ham unlike any other, with bright red meat and incredibly soft and thin layers of marbled fat that melt at room temperature. Those fake ibéricos come from industrial farms and they are not subject to the same veterinary inspections as proper ones, which is not a joke. We are talking about cured meats after all, which means that there's a health risk on top of a fraud.
Similarly, some people have been trying to pass terrible Eastern European truffles as Italian and Spanish black ones, when the difference in quality is staggering accounting to soil and climate.
Basically, PDO and PDI are much more than just a brand or a luxury halo. They ensure consistent quality and standards. As a matter of fact, producers from a PDO/PDI region that decide to break regulations will lose their certification and risk severe fines in accordance.
As for the Italian oil fraud, that's a different issue since it involves both the FDA and Italian authorities. The EU is relatively clear on this subject, but Italy has its own problems enforcing the law since they are dealing with activities closely related to the organised crime. I'm outraged at a personal level by the amount of thieving companies buying Spanish oil, bottling them in Italy (or even elsewhere!) and then selling them at exorbitant prices in other countries as "premium Italian oil", which is a well known issue. Next time buy from an tested Italian brand or just buy some good Spanish one. One is not better than the other.
TheChewyWaffles
Member
Time to abandon the canned stuff 
From what I remember reading the California Olive Oil brand is one of the only ones where you are reliabily getting actual Olive Oil only. Including the imported stuff. You can find that at most stores in the US I think, so that's something at least.
Thaedolus
Gold Member
Mm, yes and no. They're definitely underfunded and need more hands on deck, but they also have a strategy of hiring recent PhD grads with no real world experience in the industries they regulate (preferring them because they're "less biased"). I think that's a poor strategy when you're asking someone to understand the way a business operates in a highly regulated space. But as far as their power goes, they can arrest and bring charges against people like any other alphabet soup agency. If they walked up to me and told me to stop what I was doing and step away from my computer during an audit, I'd have to comply. They're not exactly powerless
parmigiano-reggiano
look for this logo.
Or grana padano
Costco is always legit, good price too
Skellig Gra
Member
Seems like a strange argument considering in the US we have the clear distinction from "Parmesan" and actual Parmigiano Reggiano.
beato_angelico
Member
I don't think is really that clear
Wafflecakes
Member
I think we are discussing two very separate issues in this thread.
I agree that it is important that what is inside match what is labeled.
Could not care less if it is from an "authentic" location.
I agree that it is important that what is inside match what is labeled.
Could not care less if it is from an "authentic" location.
Parmiggiano Reggiano is a trademark, If there's a single thing the US market can respect it's that. Parmesan is a generic term for similar product, something that the European norms do not allow. Basically, all stuff called "Parmesan" around the world are bland imitations of either Parmigiano Reggiano and Grana Padano. Recently the European Union ruled that calling "Parmesan" the ordinary shit that's polluted with more shit as indicated in the original post is a violation, but the onus of enforcing it should go to Italy. So we either paradrop out special forces over to your shitty food aisles or we shut the hell up. In the end, it's the consumer that gets screwed, because he buys a disgrace of a product thinking it's good because it's written on the can. He'll never be able to tell it from the real deal because he never tried it, meanwhile in a small european nation we distinguish between plebs eating 24-months aged cheese and superor master 48-months aged cheese race.
yes, I like to rant!
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
You know how much wood pulp is acceptable in cheese? Zero. Zero fucking percent. There is no acceptable amount of fireants, model airplanes, or used banana hammocks either. Jesus christ, America. Get your shit together. The other countries are watching. And put on a goddamn shirt.
Skellig Gra
Member
Heh, I don't really disagree with anything you said. The reality is if we only sold real Parmigiano in the US very few people would buy it because its so expensive. I think people are happy with imitation "parmesan". I buy both. If I'm having a nice meal I'll use the good stuff because its obviously way better.
Red Liquorice
Member
Gross, but why would you buy grated parmesan, a slice of the cheaper (but real) stuff here would probably be about £2-3, not much really.
Then don't call it "Parmesan" that means literally "from Parma".
Sidewinder
Member
Please unnerstand, the industry needs to cut the costs at all costs (haha), so that they can feed their shareholders with clean money, why shouldn't you allow them to put garbage into your food? If you don't they'll just produce in China!
Cause you know it's difficult to keep that wooden stuff out of them machines, it just pours through the windows and shit and their machines are also made out of wood!!
So you can't expect them to make cheese out of 100% cheese, that'd be like communism or something.
redmetal86
Member
How do you know what feet tastes like? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Skellig Gra
Member
Eh, what is that French? No one in America would make that distinction.
Amen.
I hope that never changes in Europe. I buy Parmesan? It is Parmesan.
pecorino>parmesan
We could be best friends. Do you want to be best friends?
It is the same thing I told friends once when they said it is stupid that we have that regulation in europe
Wafflecakes
Member
0 fucks given honestly
Yea the grated one is what we buy. It comes from Argentina which I always found to be interesting...
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
Yeah we call it 'shaky cheese' with my kids.
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