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Bornfree Interview with Street Fighter V pro Ryan "FChamp" Ramirez

Shadoken

Member
The biggest problem people have with SFV is not about mixups during offense , since every SF game has mixups. ITs part of what makes a fighting game.

The Problem is how prevelent they are in SFV. Fchamp clearly explained how Stubby normals and CrushCounters (that can lead to dash up combos.) can make even the footsie game just a guessing game , rather than about Spacing or Zoning. Because it is sooo hard to whiff punish those Slow ass CC normals. So the risk involved in making them whiff isnt that big.

Yes SFIV,SF3,SF2,Alpha all had mixups once you landed the KD , but landing the KD was earned. You still had to play a Neutral game ( yes yes few exceptions aside , but it just seems like SFV is filled with these characters ).
 
lol you guys never played T hawk before?

- Remember he has that Dive kick move? He would space it so it was kinda safe and then command throw you, or fake it to get you to jump and grab you out the air.

- After air to air with Thawk you have to guess whether he's gonna command you or Super/ultra you.

- move over to Guy, you don't remember players spamming elbows over and over again? It stuffed a lot of things and had a great hitbox. Guy had a mixup heavy KD game as well you can alter how far his command jump (think it was a roll) could go.

Man...even E Honda had a mixup, spam butt spashes and it could be someone difficult to see what side he would land on.

Again, I'm not saying you couldn't figure this stuff out, my point is every character had some type of mixup guessing game and hard knockdowns promoted guessing in general.

Is that not the bases of a 50/50? Guessing?

A yes...shadowken I get you guys know. I should be using mixup, I didn't know 50/50 refers to strictly that option A or option B scenario. My bad....bad term to use to express my point.

T Hawk was in the bottom 3 characters in the game for majority of the games life. The characters walkspeed was horrible. His Dive Kick was one of the easiest most telegraphed move to AA in any street fighter ever. If it's slightly misplaced he's more negative than whiffing an ultra. He has the worst matchup in the game.

Spamming elbows? Any Guy player that was using that move over and over was not a good Guy player. Shit's an easy low profile into damage.

Butt splash spam is a mixup? This is the bronziest shit you've ever posted, I know you're better than this stop it slime.

Did you play the game outside of its first month of release? this post feels like it was made by someone who's never played the game or just watched it once or twice on a stream
 
^lol...Tks for the clarity man...I wasn't the best in SF4, but I did remember having to learn a lot of stuff just to defend properly. I do like how I generally have good defense in SFV by basically being agood with AA and blocking. But, I also think Focus attack mad the game more creative, and that's the element of uniqueness that V is currently missing. I'll admit I don't really know the answer to how to fix it either. FA extended combos, gave you freedom to mixup, defend, counter...

?? Dunno how you replace it really. My initial reaction to the beta though was everyone defensive should parry like ryi, everyone offensive shouldn't, but should have really good oppressive tools.
 
T Hawk was in the bottom 3 characters in the game for majority of the games life. The characters walkspeed was horrible. His Dive Kick was one of the easiest most telegraphed move to AA in any street fighter ever. If it's slightly misplaced he's more negative than whiffing an ultra. He has the worst matchup in the game.

Spamming elbows? Any Guy player that was using that move over and over was not a good Guy player. Shit's an easy low profile into damage.

Butt splash spam is a mixup? This is the bronziest shit you've ever posted, I know you're better than this stop it slime.

Did you play the game outside of its first month of release? this post feels like it was made by someone who's never played the game or just watched it once or twice on a stream
nah, I did a lot of training and was mostly speaking from what new players would tell me they found cheap lol. I don't remember playing much of these characters in my circle. I did struggle against good Hondas tho lol. They were super patient, chipped me out so many times.
 

FACE

Banned
I used to think Capcom wouldn't be able to come up with a comeback mechanic as aggravating as ultras, I thought wrong.
 

Shadoken

Member
nah, I did a lot of training and was mostly speaking from what new players would tell me they found cheap lol. I don't remember playing much of these characters in my circle. I did struggle against good Hondas tho lol. They were super patient, chipped me out so many times.

breh honestly dont you think your comparison is a bit biased since you seem to have hardly put any time into SFIV ?

There are genuinely bad problems with SFIV but the ones you mentioned are at a very low level of play.
 

Anne

Member
This thread where people don't understand the difference between vortex/oki and standing 50/50s lol
 
So he has no faith in Capcom to improve SFV but he has faith in Capcom to deliver a great Marvel vs Capcom game?

Edit: 50/50 and guessing isn't new in Sf game, SF4 was full of vortex, unblockables, 50/50 mix ups.

Capcom should nerf the damage overall in SFV.
 
breh honestly dont you think your comparison is a bit biased since you seem to have hardly put any time into SFIV ?

There are genuinely bad problems with SFIV but the ones you mentioned are at a very low level of play.
yeah definitely I hated SF4, I only got to a decent level because peers wanted me to be part of their teams and stuff. But I also think we're dismissing low level play too quickly, generally speaking that's the bulk of the use base. I know a lot of players who had a hard time starting combos with two lights into a medium even lol.

I think I fell out of SF4 around super...I finally got Ken's combo into sweep down and then AE came out and took it away I'm like 'F this!!!" Lol...I put in enough time to hate it. But it was super dope in the beginning. Balrogs and Sims and Ryu and Sagat finals was hype.
 

Kashiwaba

Member
،most people here either started playing SF work SF4 or have way too much nostalgia for SF4 to remember how bad it was, and how much hate it got. The only reason SF4 was going strong is because SF audience was starving for a new SF game after a decade, as other members mentioned here SFV is in a far better place now than SF4 was when it was 2 years old.

And as i before bornfree needs to stop interviewing the people who always lose at SFV, and interview the winners instead, seeing​ how Du has nothing but positive things to say about the game from his interview we need to hear both sides of the argument.
 

Shadoken

Member
Edit: 50/50 and guessing isn't new in Sf game, SF4 was full of vortex, unblockables, 50/50 mix ups.

People aren't complaining about Mixups on KD. Its about how you earn the KD thats BS in SFV. Stubby Normals,Crush Counters,Input Lag and Priority system make the neutral game more guess based than reaction/spacing based.

If these Mixup characters had to work their way in and THEN do the 50/50s nobody would complain. Its the fact that in SFV you seem to be in a guessing game almost ALL the time.
 
People aren't complaining about Mixups on KD. Its about how you earn the KD thats BS in SFV. Stubby Normals,Crush Counters,Input Lag and Priority system make the neutral game more guess based than reaction/spacing based.

If these Mixup characters had to work their way in and THEN do the 50/50s nobody would complain. Its the fact that in SFV you seem to be in a guessing game almost ALL the time.
this is the truth...Laura throws 4 elbows in a row. Urien be going crazy with that CC of his, and omg don't get me started on Rog lol. The priority is ok, but they gotta make these CC unsafe and give us good sweeps again. I'm trying to counter poke and I look up and my healthy is gone lol.
 

Shadoken

Member
،most people here either started playing SF work SF4 or have way too much nostalgia for SF4 to remember how bad it was, and how much hate it got. The only reason SF4 was going strong is because SF audience was starving for a new SF game after a decade, as other members mentioned here SFV is in a far better place now than SF4 was when it was 2 years old.

SFV S1 > SF4 Vanilla
But SSF4 >>>> S2

S2 was supposed to fix S1s issues , not make it worse. We needed Lesser input lag , better pokes, better AAs and no more throw loops.

Instead we got Throw loops removed from Ryu and some very questionable buffs to certain characters. And the Fireball game being removed from the game ( Except for Guile )

this is the truth...Laura throws 4 elbows in a row. Urien be going crazy with that CC of his, and omg don't get me started on Rog lol. The priority is ok, but they gotta make these CC unsafe and give us good sweeps again. I'm trying to counter poke and I look up and my healthy is gone lol.

They are unsafe on paper. But because of input lag/stubby normals , its very hard to punish on whiff ( unless you are predicting it ).
 
People aren't complaining about Mixups on KD. Its about how you earn the KD thats BS in SFV. Stubby Normals,Crush Counters,Input Lag and Priority system make the neutral game more guess based than reaction/spacing based.

If these Mixup characters had to work their way in and THEN do the 50/50s nobody would complain. Its the fact that in SFV you seem to be in a guessing game almost ALL the time.

I think crush counters is a good system for neutral, but how SFV handle the damage is the thing I don't agree with.

Also I agree that Capcom should improve input lag, reduce damage overall, and not to make throws fill the stun bar.

Edit: If the game is always about guessing, how we are seeing the top players dominating in tournaments and punk winning by playing neutral and whiff punishing in Dreamhack Austin?
 

Shadoken

Member
I think crush counters is a good system for neutral, but how SFV handle the damage is the thing I don't agree with.

Also I agree that Capcom should improve input lag, reduce damage overall, and not to make throws fill the stun bar.

Crush counters is a good system by themselves. But coupled with the priority system. It seems like CC Normals >>> Other normals in terms of Risk/Reward. Especially since some of the CC normals have a very good hitbox And are quite fast.

A normal that is just 2-3 frames faster than a Medium should not lead to 200 Extra damage AND also higher priority. Some of them are even Plus on block ,its just crazy.
 
SFV S1 > SF4 Vanilla
But SSF4 >>>> S2

S2 was supposed to fix S1s issues , not make it worse. We needed Lesser input lag , better pokes, better AAs and no more throw loops.

Instead we got Throw loops removed from Ryu and some very questionable buffs to certain characters. And the Fireball game being removed from the game ( Except for Guile )



They are unsafe on paper. But because of input lag/stubby normals , its very hard to punish on whiff ( unless you are predicting it ).
i genuinely don't know what type of roadmap they had planned, but I dont like it.
 

sibarraz

Banned
I wouldn't say it's random, but Vtrigger is ending up being more of a come back mechanic than Capcom would have liked. Against characters like Balrog/Ibuki/Urien, all of your hard work disappears in a second if they land one move.

I forget where I read it or who said it, but a pro said that they're more afraid of a character that's almost dead because than one with full health because of the way vtrigger and chiop works.


If everybody that bitched about SF (not just 5, but, like every single iteration), played another fighter, they'd have burgeoning, healthy communities.

Too many people play SF because it's SF. And now, people like FChamp and other pros play SF because it's where the money is.

Bonchan said int he interview I linked, he'd play anything that had money behind it, lol.



Could you give a more detailed or analysis explaining why v-trigger is that bad?
 

Pompadour

Member
Crush counters is a good system by themselves. But coupled with the priority system. It seems like CC Normals >>> Other normals in terms of Risk/Reward. Especially since some of the CC normals have a very good hitbox And are quite fast.

A normal that is just 2-3 frames faster than a Medium should not lead to 200 Extra damage AND also higher priority. Some of them are even Plus on block ,its just crazy.

CCs should be on command normals that are unsafe at a minimum. It's dumb that you can press a button and, depending on what your opponent does you're either plus on block, plus on hit enough to combo, or you're getting huge damage off a CC.
 

Anne

Member
Edit: 50/50 and guessing isn't new in Sf game, SF4 was full of vortex, unblockables, 50/50 mix ups.

So let's do a little history lesson on the Street Fighter series when it comes to stuff like this, because you're not wrong about vortex. Street Fighter 2 was a game that lived and died by gimmicks and vortexes. SF3 was a game that also had a pretty strong emphasis on oki with things like Oro and Urien. The top tiers in 3S like Chun/Ken/Yun/Dudely etc. all could end a combo in a vortex situation and kill you outright. That's nothing new.

What people complain about regarding "50/50s" in SFV generally don't get into knockdown mix up. That's just kind of something that's going to happen in Street Fighter games (I'll get into SF4 specific stuff in a bit and why it's an exception). The real 50/50 mix up type stuff people aren't liking tends to be the standing mix up with how throws and strikes work. That's new to SFV. In ST and 3S, strike/throw mix up was there but it wasn't a really strong 50/50 situation. In SF2 throw protection is pretty insane and most characters have pushback and other things to stop that nonsense. It's why some of the best pressure in SF2 is just plain fireball trapping or standing at length and doing low rush punch. In 3S it was a lot stronger, but it took like 10 throws to kill people and parry+other defensive options blew it the fuck out.

SF4 is where it gets a bit weird though, because throw protect and pushback weren't as wild and you could generate + frames with anybody pretty easily. You could stay in somebody's face awhile and pressure. On the flipside of this, you didn't really see that happen too often because defensive options in SF4 are actually insane. If you were any good at SF4, you knew the list of anti-pressure options. Crouch tech in 100 different ways, backdash, focus attack stuff, lots of invuln reversals, invuln reversals + FADC. Whenever somebody blocked in SF4, the complexity of the rock/paper/scissors and mindgames in general went pretty far. It did get a bit too much where defenders sometimes had too much advantage, but it was not just 50/50 type stuff.

The 50/50 vortex stuff in SF4 people complained about was actually the result of an exploit on knockdown. This was where SF4 got a bit weird because this exploit meant characters who didn't have strong oki before suddenly could unblockable loop you. It was so prevalent that match ups were often decided by whether or not a character specific unblock set up existed or not. While 3S had bullshit unblockables too, the way that exploit worked didn't mean Chun was going to suddenly put you in this weird grotesque situation. That was the real issue in SF4 vortex 50/50 stuff. It became everybody's gameplan at some point in weird esoteric ways that weren't fun or interactive.

Anyways, back to standing pressure nonsense. In SFV, the standing pressure looks a lot like SF4 but with the major exception of Crush Counter existing and defensive options being garbage across the board. Once you generate plus frames on block and go through the list of defensive options to worry about, it's pretty slim. As a result, a lot of the times if somebody blocks a standing hit you just kinda get to do it. Worst case scenario is generally an EX reversal which is pretty whatever and can result in your opponent dying anyways. So as a defender, instead of thinking through pressure and looking for an escape you're really just trying to avoid getting CCed, which is the biggest issue in the game atm since CCs can just outright kill you.

That's pretty abnormal for a Street Fighter game, and it's not really fun to engage with for most experienced players, Most characters in the game put you in a basic RPS situation where your best option is to just RPS them back if you block. On top of that, the neutral game is a bit more limited and is encouraging players to get up in somebody's grill and go for that. That's where the comparisons to Mortal Kombat come from. That is a game where you generate plus frames that turn into actual 50/50 high/low stuff without real options to deal with it sometimes.

Anyways, where I come from is an arcade with people that have been playing SF since 1992 who say a lot of the same things about SFV and SF4 I talked about. I did a couple years as an esports journalist in the FGC and interviewed top players all the time and that's about the gist I get out of them on shit like this. There's always some personal preference in there to people who don't like generally integrated setplay (read: SSF4 Ibuki), but that tends to be on a person to person basis.
 
I think crush counters is a good system for neutral, but how SFV handle the damage is the thing I don't agree with.

Also I agree that Capcom should improve input lag, reduce damage overall, and not to make throws fill the stun bar.

Edit: If the game is always about guessing, how we are seeing the top players dominating in tournaments and punk winning by playing neutral and whiff punishing in Dreamhack Austin?

Crush counters for neutral are basically what level 2 focus was in SFIV with no armour. It's really really stupid and ass backwards. The priority system means poking with a medium attack vs someone poking with a heavy attack at the same time = heavy attack winning into extra damage. this is anti neutral lmao, you force players into just poking with heavy attacks and fishing for CC's. Low risk high reward
 

Shadoken

Member
Could you give a more detailed or analysis explaining why v-trigger is that bad?

Player A vs Player B
Player A is playing smart and has generated a nice lifelead. Player B now has V trigger. Player B says Fuk it and does something random like a CC,Dash up normal,OH,Low something and Cancels into VT.

Player B doesnt really care because Cancelling into V Trigger is SAFE ON BLOCK. So he really just does it without any thought.

Player A if he is unlucky gets hit by said Normal->VTC and now eats a 400 dmg combo that leads to Corner.

Player A now has to guess right other wise he will get stunned and die. His entire match is now dependent on this guess. Now obviously some matchups might not play out like this. But this is how the game is for the top tier.

TL;dr

You build V trigger by getting beat up. But its way to strong for something that is built by getting beat up. Its like an instant MY Turn now. And is horribly balanced across the cast.
 
In regards to SF4 50/50's, I know they exist and were mostly BS but the game gave you a number of defensive options to deal with it. In SFV you just have prayers lol.

In SF4 you could actually play a strong neutral game and win for doing that. Ultras weren't perfect and yes you had to adjust your game plan as to which ultra your opponent chose and play a bit more cautious but isn't that the same thing for characters with strong V-Triggers? Shit V-Triggers are a stronger comeback factor than Ultras ever were lol. I've never done 100% immediately with a damn ultra.

You don't want to low roundhouse with any character now since they made how negative on block they are universal so one on block could be st.MK Vtrigger ggs.

Another thing I preferred in SFIV was that jumping in often seemed like a bad idea. If someone had Ultra stored up with extra meter you had to chain yourself down to the ground because if you jumped in like an idiot, you were gonna get punished hard - Smart play.

In SFV, jumping in never seems like it's a bad idea or that you'll be punished for it heavily OR if the character will even be able to AA you since the risk reward of their AA working usually isn't in their favour unless you have a DP or a LP AA. This game promotes playing like a jackass 90% of the time. look at eita do work lmao

Don't get it twisted, I've stated a few times already, SFV is too offense oriented. It rewards high risk more than SF4 ever did (meanwhile SF4 had TOO MANY safe options). I feel like you're giving SF4 a high pass on it's bullshit because SFV current bullshit is even worse.

SFV at it's core, is still a fun game, that's being brought down by: 1.) small range neutral game 2.) variety in character selection [slowly being fixed] 3.) 50/50's too strong 4.) high risk AA options 5.) zoning is non-existant... and other things, but it still has time to change!

Jumping in in SF4 was usually a great idea... after a hard knockdown and following with a dirty OS. You're right though, doing a raw jump in when both players are neutral... is not as scary as trying to do it in SF4 and getting punished hard for it.
 
So let's do a little history lesson on the Street Fighter series when it comes to stuff like this, because you're not wrong about vortex. Street Fighter 2 was a game that lived and died by gimmicks and vortexes. SF3 was a game that also had a pretty strong emphasis on oki with things like Oro and Urien. The top tiers in 3S like Chun/Ken/Yun/Dudely etc. all could end a combo in a vortex situation and kill you outright. That's nothing new.

What people complain about regarding "50/50s" in SFV generally don't get into knockdown mix up. That's just kind of something that's going to happen in Street Fighter games (I'll get into SF4 specific stuff in a bit and why it's an exception). The real 50/50 mix up type stuff people aren't liking tends to be the standing mix up with how throws and strikes work. That's new to SFV. In ST and 3S, strike/throw mix up was there but it wasn't a really strong 50/50 situation. In SF2 throw protection is pretty insane and most characters have pushback and other things to stop that nonsense. It's why some of the best pressure in SF2 is just plain fireball trapping or standing at length and doing low rush punch. In 3S it was a lot stronger, but it took like 10 throws to kill people and parry+other defensive options blew it the fuck out.

SF4 is where it gets a bit weird though, because throw protect and pushback weren't as wild and you could generate + frames with anybody pretty easily. You could stay in somebody's face awhile and pressure. On the flipside of this, you didn't really see that happen too often because defensive options in SF4 are actually insane. If you were any good at SF4, you knew the list of anti-pressure options. Crouch tech in 100 different ways, backdash, focus attack stuff, lots of invuln reversals, invuln reversals + FADC. Whenever somebody blocked in SF4, the complexity of the rock/paper/scissors and mindgames in general went pretty far. It did get a bit too much where defenders sometimes had too much advantage, but it was not just 50/50 type stuff.

The 50/50 vortex stuff in SF4 people complained about was actually the result of an exploit on knockdown. This was where SF4 got a bit weird because this exploit meant characters who didn't have strong oki before suddenly could unblockable loop you. It was so prevalent that match ups were often decided by whether or not a character specific unblock set up existed or not. While 3S had bullshit unblockables too, the way that exploit worked didn't mean Chun was going to suddenly put you in this weird grotesque situation. That was the real issue in SF4 vortex 50/50 stuff. It became everybody's gameplan at some point in weird esoteric ways that weren't fun or interactive.

Anyways, back to standing pressure nonsense. In SFV, the standing pressure looks a lot like SF4 but with the major exception of Crush Counter existing and defensive options being garbage across the board. Once you generate plus frames on block and go through the list of defensive options to worry about, it's pretty slim. As a result, a lot of the times if somebody blocks a standing hit you just kinda get to do it. Worst case scenario is generally an EX reversal which is pretty whatever and can result in your opponent dying anyways. So as a defender, instead of thinking through pressure and looking for an escape you're really just trying to avoid getting CCed, which is the biggest issue in the game atm since CCs can just outright kill you.

That's pretty abnormal for a Street Fighter game, and it's not really fun to engage with for most experienced players, Most characters in the game put you in a basic RPS situation where your best option is to just RPS them back if you block. On top of that, the neutral game is a bit more limited and is encouraging players to get up in somebody's grill and go for that. That's where the comparisons to Mortal Kombat come from. That is a game where you generate plus frames that turn into actual 50/50 high/low stuff without real options to deal with it sometimes.

Anyways, where I come from is an arcade with people that have been playing SF since 1992 who say a lot of the same things about SFV and SF4 I talked about. I did a couple years as an esports journalist in the FGC and interviewed top players all the time and that's about the gist I get out of them on shit like this. There's always some personal preference in there to people who don't like generally integrated setplay (read: SSF4 Ibuki), but that tends to be on a person to person basis.

Thanks for the history lesson :)

What I wanted to say is if you poke with a mp but your spacing is wrong and you got crush countered by hp, I think it is ok, because you hit the wrong button at the wrong spacing. But again what I don't like is the huge amount of damage you can inflict by doing a crush counter by activating V trigger after it or doing a high damaging combo after it.

So in my opinion, they should limit the actions you can do after crush counter or nerf the damage and scaling.

Another thing I want to mention if they make the oki game weaker in SFV, I think it will be a much better game.
 

Shadoken

Member
What I wanted to say is if you poke with a mp but your spacing is wrong and you got crush countered by hp, I think it is ok, because you hit the wrong button at the wrong spacing. But again what I don't like is the huge amount of damage you can inflict by doing a crush counter by activating V trigger after it or doing a high damaging combo after it.
.

This is the problem tho. The Heavy CC normal will beat your Medium poke even if you space it right and lead to 320 damage. In other SF games , it would just trade hits. Heavy normals need to be very unsafe for them to have so much strength. But it looks like Capcom didnt balance it right at all.
 

MrCarter

Member
So let's do a little history lesson on the Street Fighter series when it comes to stuff like this, because you're not wrong about vortex. Street Fighter 2 was a game that lived and died by gimmicks and vortexes. SF3 was a game that also had a pretty strong emphasis on oki with things like Oro and Urien. The top tiers in 3S like Chun/Ken/Yun/Dudely etc. all could end a combo in a vortex situation and kill you outright. That's nothing new.

What people complain about regarding "50/50s" in SFV generally don't get into knockdown mix up. That's just kind of something that's going to happen in Street Fighter games (I'll get into SF4 specific stuff in a bit and why it's an exception). The real 50/50 mix up type stuff people aren't liking tends to be the standing mix up with how throws and strikes work. That's new to SFV. In ST and 3S, strike/throw mix up was there but it wasn't a really strong 50/50 situation. In SF2 throw protection is pretty insane and most characters have pushback and other things to stop that nonsense. It's why some of the best pressure in SF2 is just plain fireball trapping or standing at length and doing low rush punch. In 3S it was a lot stronger, but it took like 10 throws to kill people and parry+other defensive options blew it the fuck out.

SF4 is where it gets a bit weird though, because throw protect and pushback weren't as wild and you could generate + frames with anybody pretty easily. You could stay in somebody's face awhile and pressure. On the flipside of this, you didn't really see that happen too often because defensive options in SF4 are actually insane. If you were any good at SF4, you knew the list of anti-pressure options. Crouch tech in 100 different ways, backdash, focus attack stuff, lots of invuln reversals, invuln reversals + FADC. Whenever somebody blocked in SF4, the complexity of the rock/paper/scissors and mindgames in general went pretty far. It did get a bit too much where defenders sometimes had too much advantage, but it was not just 50/50 type stuff.

The 50/50 vortex stuff in SF4 people complained about was actually the result of an exploit on knockdown. This was where SF4 got a bit weird because this exploit meant characters who didn't have strong oki before suddenly could unblockable loop you. It was so prevalent that match ups were often decided by whether or not a character specific unblock set up existed or not. While 3S had bullshit unblockables too, the way that exploit worked didn't mean Chun was going to suddenly put you in this weird grotesque situation. That was the real issue in SF4 vortex 50/50 stuff. It became everybody's gameplan at some point in weird esoteric ways that weren't fun or interactive.

Anyways, back to standing pressure nonsense. In SFV, the standing pressure looks a lot like SF4 but with the major exception of Crush Counter existing and defensive options being garbage across the board. Once you generate plus frames on block and go through the list of defensive options to worry about, it's pretty slim. As a result, a lot of the times if somebody blocks a standing hit you just kinda get to do it. Worst case scenario is generally an EX reversal which is pretty whatever and can result in your opponent dying anyways. So as a defender, instead of thinking through pressure and looking for an escape you're really just trying to avoid getting CCed, which is the biggest issue in the game atm since CCs can just outright kill you.

That's pretty abnormal for a Street Fighter game, and it's not really fun to engage with for most experienced players, Most characters in the game put you in a basic RPS situation where your best option is to just RPS them back if you block. On top of that, the neutral game is a bit more limited and is encouraging players to get up in somebody's grill and go for that. That's where the comparisons to Mortal Kombat come from. That is a game where you generate plus frames that turn into actual 50/50 high/low stuff without real options to deal with it sometimes.

Anyways, where I come from is an arcade with people that have been playing SF since 1992 who say a lot of the same things about SFV and SF4 I talked about. I did a couple years as an esports journalist in the FGC and interviewed top players all the time and that's about the gist I get out of them on shit like this. There's always some personal preference in there to people who don't like generally integrated setplay (read: SSF4 Ibuki), but that tends to be on a person to person basis.

Great and informative post. What would you suggest to improve the defensive (or anything else) issues in SFV at the moment?
 

Marceles

Member
Could you give a more detailed or analysis explaining why v-trigger is that bad?

Because the devs can only make someone's V-Trigger dependent on how great they think a character will be.

There's three ways to build V-Trigger: take damage, land a V-skill, counter hit.

So Necalli gets crazy V-gauge build off of his ground pound V-skill which has great range and start up, it' would seem fair that his gauge is 3 bars, but the moment V-trigger is popped it lasts until the end of the round...not to mention Necalli is a great character before V-Trigger: great damage, great normals, an overhead, and a command grab.

F.A.N.G.'s V-Skill is a slow poison projectile which doesn't go full screen but cannot be blocked, his V-gauge is also 3 bars, and runs out after time. His normals are ok, his damage isn't that great due to the developers wanting you to be dependent on poison damage, he has no overhead, no command grab...he is mostly dependent on frame traps and mixups.

It just makes certain players think "why should I work so hard when character A has all this and character B has to do all of this". They worked so hard and supposedly are playing solid, and one false move and it's over.
 
This is the problem tho. The Heavy CC normal will beat your Medium poke even if you space it right and lead to 320 damage. In other SF games , it would just trade hits. Heavy normals need to be very unsafe for them to have so much strength. But it looks like Capcom didnt balance it right at all.

mp is faster than hp so it will counter hp if both buttons are pressed at the same time (mp range). But I understand your point of view and I think damage is very high in SFV and it should be nerfed or the oki game get weaker.
 

Bob White

Member
lol this is it's own thread.

Anyways, champ is right. This game is too kinetic with little defensive options. Neutral game is ASS with these derp ass dashes. V trigger plus wake up 3 buttons means the best defensive option in the game literally is to get your ass kicked then mash buttons on wake up.

This isn't hyperbole either. If you're Laura with full v trigger and you're losing, why wouldn't you mash your 3 frame wake up? If you get hit, whatever, if the hit didn't kill thats a WIN for you. Why? Because you can try your 3 framer again. If it connects, you have INSANE pressure. Even if they blocked. WTF is that saying to new players? Lose then start mashing?

V trigger is garbage.
Crush counter is garbage.
Dashes are garbage.
 

Anne

Member
Great and informative post. What would you suggest to improve the defensive (or anything else) issues in SFV at the moment?

I don't really have a good answer for you. The missing meterless reversals would be nice, but it's a bit late to do that (I think). I know people didn't like things like good backdashes in SF4, but like I said that was a result of there being too many defensive options in SF4 period so Idk how they'd be in SFV. You could also just make V Reversals a lot better than they are right now. Could increase pushback and add more - frames to those mega rewarding CCs too.

I think the better approach at this point is to make it so rewards off of making people block in general aren't so nuts. Too many characters get to create these situations that are hyper lethal off just a blocked jab or some shit. It's one thing if you wanna have an emphasis on more basic RPS, it's another when that basic RPS can come off anything and is mega high reward.

It would also go a long way to make it so characters have better reactive tools in general. S1 Chun had a lot of really good ones, but since she was the only one it ended up being kinda broke. Just an example. SNK games tend to also focus on more simple and offensive RPS too, and they get by with the pressure having lots of pushback and characters having good reactive options like jabs or faster, low-reward but high coverage buttons in general. It would make it so in neutral dash and jump were worse. Would also mean people being pushed out would be easier for the defender to react to.

Idk, I'm not a game designer and none of those are a real good thought out answer. It's just what other fighting games in the past have done to address this issue.
 

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
The team doesn't know what they are doing atm with the game imo. Due to the nature of the game and the systems in place certain characters should have certain tools and be weaker in other areas. Standard shit in a fighter and SF5 is pretty bread and butter basic. So when they straight up just neglected keeping all the characters in line with each other and say give characters high mobility, safe attacks as well as high damage. In a very ground based game for the most part. Things just get tilted towards that side of the roster.

High damage
Good movement
Good range on normals
Abundance of safe moves for turtle or agression not both
Good mix up game

They should have stuck with 2 of those or 3 at most in special cases

Instead we have characters that have that whole list and some with pretty much maybe 1 or none and in a game as basic as SFV that's REALLY bad
 
I don't really have a good answer for you. The missing meterless reversals would be nice, but it's a bit late to do that (I think). I know people didn't like things like good backdashes in SF4, but like I said that was a result of there being too many defensive options in SF4 period so Idk how they'd be in SFV. You could also just make V Reversals a lot better than they are right now. Could increase pushback and add more - frames to those mega rewarding CCs too.

I think the better approach at this point is to make it so rewards off of making people block in general aren't so nuts. Too many characters get to create these situations that are hyper lethal off just a blocked jab or some shit. It's one thing if you wanna have an emphasis on more basic RPS, it's another when that basic RPS can come off anything and is mega high reward.

It would also go a long way to make it so characters have better reactive tools in general. S1 Chun had a lot of really good ones, but since she was the only one it ended up being kinda broke. Just an example. SnK games tend to also focus on more simple and offensive RPS too, and they get by with the pressure having lots of pushback and characters having good reactive options like jabs or faster, low-reward but high coverage buttons in general. It would make it so in neutral dash and jump were worse. Would also mean people being pushed at were better.

Idk, I'm not a game designer and none of those are a real good thought out answer. It's just what other fighting games in the past have done to address this issue.

I think it is really easy to improve SFV and make it more honest:

1. Throws don't fill stun bar (throw loops issue)
2. No grey bar bullshit.
3. More pushback after knockdown and reset the situation (back to neutral - weaker oki game)
 

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
I think it is really easy to improve SFV and make it more honest:

1. Throws don't fill stun bar (throw loops issue)
2. No grey bar bullshit.
3. More pushback after knockdown and reset the situation (back to neutral - weaker oki game)

None of these are things that should be changed.
 

ethomaz

Banned
They worked so hard and supposedly are playing solid, and one false move and it's over.
That is exactly my ideia of competitive eSport... in real world fighting sports one false move and it is over.

Pro can't do mistakes... he needs to be at his best to not make any mistake to have chance to win.
 

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
Care to explain?

I think it is really easy to improve SFV and make it more honest:

1. Throws don't fill stun bar (throw loops issue)
2. No grey bar bullshit.
3. More pushback after knockdown and reset the situation (back to neutral - weaker oki game)

1. Sometimes the only way to get someone stunned is a throw, avoiding a throw is just part of the game on the defensive side of things there is 0 reason a throw should be made less punishing, throw damage isn't even high in the first place as well.

2. Grey bar is actually a really cool concept and it works well enough, it exist to give characters that rely on fast pokes and high pressure a reward when they finally do get a hit /throw in

3. This completly ruins any sense of oki for characters that are not that good at it already and staggers the goal of characters that are designed around a solid oki game.


ATM there is nothing in the game imo I would change for the person who made mistakes or is waiting for their turn outside of giving proper reversals back and making all V reversals viable get off me tools as giving up vskill bar is painfull


The real issues with the game atm is on the walk speeds/frame data/hitboxes side of the game The basic systems in place are mostly fine
 
1. Sometimes the only way to get someone stunned is a throw, avoiding a throw is just part of the game on the defensive side of things there is 0 reason a throw should be made less punishing, throw damage isn't even high in the first place as well.

2. Grey bar is actually a really cool concept and it works well enough, it exist to give characters that rely on fast pokes and high pressure a reward when they finally do get a hit /throw in

3. This completly ruins any sense of oki for characters that are not that good at it already and staggers the goal of characters that are designed around a solid oki game.

1. Many characters have throw loops and other don't (how is it fair?). So you can stun an opponent with only throws because he is afraid of getting hit by a meaty on wake up. Invincible dp got nerfed and throws should too.

2. Grey bar prevent defensive play or zoning in general. A lot of players has a defensive play style, but grey bar plus high damage make it very hard for them.

3. Players shouldn't be under scary pressure if they made a single mistake, make it more honest.
 

tsundoku

Member
I don't disagree with a lot of his problems with the game but I disagree as to why he thinks these decisions were made.

Most of SFV's gameplay choices are direct responses to complaints people have been making for years.

SF4 combos all start off with lights? We'll take the priority system from SF3 and put it here so mediums and heavies will beat out mashed lights. Crush Counters were designed to make throwing heavies out in the neutral more useful but they're issue is that the normals many of them are attached to are too good on their own. It's too high reward for the low risk.

Set play too strong in SF4? You get an Alpha Counter and two different quick rises that can be done at almost any time.

SF4 brought back hard ass links that were basically done away with in SF3? Add a frame buffer like the ASW games to make combos easier.

People bitched about the dozens of OSes in SF4 so we get a game where OSes are snuffed out. Of course, lots of pro players love OSes because it gives them another edge over players with worse execution.

I don't agree with his anti-air point at all considered everyone hated jab AAs in S1. Jump ins are way too good, though, and if anything was changed to help newer players that's what I'd point to.

Exactly, sounds like a laundry list of complaints about how the game isn't bad like SF4. And "Accidentally/incidentally" got "nerfed" to be more like the objectively superior 3rd strike systems
 
I don't agree with his anti-air point at all considered everyone hated jab AAs in S1. Jump ins are way too good, though, and if anything was changed to help newer players that's what I'd point to.

Jumps haven't been good since SF2. Anyone with good reaction can stop them.
 

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
1. Many characters have throw loops and other don't (how is it fair?). So you can stun an opponent with only throws because he is afraid of getting hit by a meaty on wake up. Invincible dp got nerfed and throws should too.

2. Grey bar prevent defensive play or zoning in general. A lot of players has a defensive play style, but grey bar plus high damage make it very hard for them.

3. Players shouldn't be under scary pressure if they made a single mistake, make it more honest.

sorry dude throw loops are fine, back dash or jump. The characters are based around them. I'm just seeing salt from not being able to keep calm and handle the situation.

Grey bar does not prevent defensive play or zoning, playing defensively you are still fishing for hits and forcing blocked normals.

Fighting games are in large part about taking turns, if you cant do the same amounts of scary shit back your character is either a more defensive character and the other character had a hard time getting in to begin with and this is their reward or you are doing a really bad job with a offensive based character and playing them defensively :p
 

Marceles

Member
That is exactly my ideia of competitive eSport... in real world fighting sports one false move and it is over.

Pro can't do mistakes... he needs to be at his best to not make any mistake to have chance to win.

True, bad thing is some characters have the liberty to make those mistakes vs other characters because they dont fear the punish from them.
 

ethomaz

Banned
True, bad thing is some characters have the liberty to make those mistakes vs other characters because they dont fear the punish from them.
That means the game has balance issues?

Because the talk about you making a mistake and losing the battle is exactly what I expect from a competitive fighting game. High level matches the guys are good enough that one mistake is death.

Take for example the Olympic Judo... one mistake and the opponent will use that to Ippon (KO) you... same for others real fighting.

Games needs to be like that too... the players that wants to be professional needs to train to reduce at max the mistakes he can do in the battle while forcing the opponent open for mistakes.

Who made a mistake first will probably lose unless the other guy made a mistake trying to to use your mistake to win.

Mistakes are what defines the fightings.

That is my opinion of course... crying that you lose why you did a mistake is your fault and the game or your enemy has nothing to do with that.

That interview just look like the guy is salty because he can't be good enough to be competitive... it is fine you remember the glory of past game but it is weird to cry because new guys are better than you in new games lol

The games are for both you and your opponent... it is fair.

It is like saying you are loosing a Tennis match because you can't play against the sun and forget each 6 games you change sides and the opponent plays against the sun and you lose anyway... the same rules and issues are for both... it is fair... you are just not good enough to win over them.
 
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