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[Sayad]

None of the protestors listed were Japanese lol.

Surprise, surprise.

 

[DeathoftheEndless]

I played a JRPG once. Am I in trouble?

 

[MHWilliams]

It is asking participants to mimic a painting that, while it isn't of a Japanese person (I think?), consists of many stereotypical aspects. Wouldn't be surprise if many people crossed that line when trying to "get into the spirit."

It's not. It's a painting of Claude Monet's wife, Camille, in a kimono.

A bigger pic.

From the MFA:

Large-scale figure paintings had traditionally been considered the most significant challenge for an artist. Using this format, Monet created a virtuoso display of brilliant color that is also a witty comment on the current Paris fad for all things Japanese. The woman shown wrapped in a splendid kimono and surrounded by fans is Monet’s wife, Camille, wearing a blond wig to emphasize her Western identity.

From elsewhere:

The painting is the reflection of a trendy craze for Japanese culture and art, which was dominant in France from about 1865 until the end of the century. This Japonisme, as it was called, had captured artists and a wide public alike. Claude Monet was among the Impressionist painters who admired Japanese art, and especially Japanese woodblock prints.

The image shows Madame Claude Monet dressed in an elaborate kimono, holding a Japanese fan in her hand. She wears a blond wig. Her kimono is lavishly embroidered and the background is decorated with numerous Japanese fans. Such items could then be bought for a few pennies in many shops in Paris. Even the big department stores had special sections for Japanese items.

Later Claude Monet would call the painting a heap of trash.

And more:

To Monet, Japonisme degraded the true genius of Japanese art, and that was the message he was seeking to impart by his own painting.

As far as I can tell, wearing the kimono would probably go against the satire Monet is trying to make in the painting. As in, you're buying into the very stuff the painting is meant to be against. He sincerely enjoyed Japanese art and felt the French faux Japanese art (labelled Japonisme) was a joke.

 

[JDSN]

Turn it into a Demolition Man appreciation day, there.

 

[shamanick]

Well yes, it is cultural appropriation.

How is it appropriation and not appreciation?

 

[MHWilliams]

How is it appropriation and not appreciation?

See above.

 

[Soph]

I don't see anything racist here, if I wear American jeans am I being racist?

 

[andymcc]

Though at the same time, I paid 75 dollars for the steak, I'll eat it anyway I damn well please, and unless you're willing to pay 75 dollars to save the steak, you can shut up.

at the same time, it's the chef's establishment and he can eject you from his premises for not abiding by protocol (which is the behavior some of the sushi chefs have been known to exhibit).

 

[teruterubozu]

How is it appropriation and not appreciation?

It's appropriate appreciation.

 

[shamanick]

See above.

People trying on a kimono aren't appropriating Japanese culture, they're participating in it in a non-disrespectful manner. Appropriation suggests some sort of fetishization, which isn't really happening here.

 

[JustenP88]

I'm a white man. I regularly wear a poncho that has my favorite sports team's logo on it on their game days. I bought it from a vendor in cozumel. Am I a racist or a nice man who supports local business?

This question is kinda serious. Part of the reason I wear it is the goofiness of a dorky white man in a poncho drunk at the Buffalo Wild Wings resonates with me. Ive never thought of it as being remotely offensive.

 

[EdwardTeach]

The people guilty of cultural appropriation are the protesters who felt entitled to speak on behalf of the Japanese.

 

[John Rabbit]

I'm a white man. I regularly wear a poncho that has my favorite sports team's logo on it on their game days. I bought it from a vendor in cozumel. Am I a racist or a nice man who supports local business?

This question is kinda serious. Part of the reason I wear it is the goofiness of a dorky white man in a poncho drunk at the Buffalo Wild Wings resonates with me. Ive never thought of it as being remotely offensive.

as long as you tipped the vendor, you're fine.

 

[Tadaima]

Ahaha what?

Anecdotal here, but the Japanese people I know absolutely love watching foreign people try on a kimono. I have been asked/encouraged to do it probably dozens of times by friends/acquaintances, as well as two past girlfriends.

I suppose that they get the same kick out of it that we Europeans do when we see other people sporting kilts/lederhosen/what-have-you.

 

[Izuna]

Bullshit.

The protestors themselves are ignorant for grouping all Asians into one.

I don't think I can find a single Japanese-born person who thinks this is racist.

 

[Duane Cunningham]

I'm trying to think of a parallel in Western culture that we might get upset over but I'm drawing a blank for anything that isn't connected to Christianity in general, and I'd hope we wouldn't be as a culture defined by the opinions of the followers of one religion.

Maybe if they celebrated a western holiday like Christmas, but didn't quite get it so they pair it with other things they perceive as western iconography like Kentucky Fried Chicken.

 

[mantidor]

It's not. It's a painting of Claude Monet's wife, Camille, in a kimono.

A bigger pic.

From the MFA:


From elsewhere:




And more:


As far as I can tell, wearing the kimono would probably go against the satire Monet is trying to make in the painting. As in, you're buying into the very stuff the painting is meant to be against. He sincerely enjoyed Japanese art and felt the French faux Japanese art (labelled Japonisme) was a joke.

twist!

Maybe the protests were staged by the museum as a performance act to highlight exactly this background about the painting, that would be quite brilliant actually.

 

[maquiladora]

White Party - A Lesson in Cultural Appropriation

 

[Mesoian]

Turn it into a Demolition Man appreciation day, there.

Heh, I'd go to one.

at the same time, it's the chef's establishment and he can eject you from his premises for not abiding by protocol (which is the behavior some of the sushi chefs have been known to exhibit).

Yes, but he is surrendering that 75 dollars in doing so, which is fine. I'm all for a code of conduct at specialized establishments.

But the last thing I wanna hear when I go anywhere is someone looking at what I'm doing from two tables over and going "HOW DARE HE! DOESN'T HE KNOW BETTER? HOW COULD THEY LET THOSE PEOPLE IN HERE?!" If you're doing that, you can get fucked.

 

[MHWilliams]

People trying on a kimono aren't appropriating Japanese culture, they're participating in it in a non-disrespectful manner. Appropriation suggests some sort of fetishization, which isn't really happening here.

The painting itself is not Japanese culture. It's in fact about how people are misusing Japanese culture. The kimono in question isn't even a real kimono worn in a real manner.

What Japanese culture are they participating in?

Bullshit.

The protestors themselves are ignorant for grouping all Asians into one.

I don't think I can find a single Japanese-born person who thinks this is racist.

From the BBC article?

"There's a difference between appreciation and appropriate, MFA. As a former Boston resident and patron of the museum I'm embarrassed for you," Facebook user Junko Goda commented.

Perhaps she changed her name, but that's pretty Japanese. Don't make the same mistake you charge them with. People have a wide variety of opinions.

 

[daniels]

i always though we should embrace other cultures
Doesn't matter what you do you always piss off some politically correct baby.

 

[TatteredHat]

I saw some japanese people wearing gothic fashion once, should have called them out on their disgusting behaviour.

But seriously, it's just a piece of clothing.

 

[shamanick]

The painting itself is not Japanese culture. It's in fact about how people are misusing Japanese culture. The kimono in question isn't even a real kimono worn in a real manner.

What Japanese culture are they participating in?

It's a visual representation of a kimono, whether or not it's folded according to tradition. How is this disrespectful?

 

[JustenP88]

as long as you tipped the vendor, you're fine.

Iirc, I paid $80 for a poncho and my girlfriend was mad that I just accepted their price and didn't haggle. I don't think I tipped.

Racist it is. I'll add this to the list of topics to bring up with my therapist.

 

[PSqueak]

Maybe if they celebrated a western holiday like Christmas, but didn't quite get it so they pair it with other things they perceive as western iconography like Kentucky Fried Chicken.

They do.

Traditionally with cake instead of KFC like in your example.

 

[uuaschbaer]

Telling-off morons is an art.

 

[braves01]

Someone should start a gofundme to send those protesters to Kyoto so they can protest the businesses there that let tourists dress up in kimonos.

 

[8 X 11 Printer Paper]

They do.

Traditionally with cake instead of KFC like in your example.

No, they have both cake and KFC on Christmas.

 

[plasmawave]

See above.

The kimonos, which are replicas of the garment in the painting, were commissioned by the Japanese broadcaster NHK to accompany “La Japonaise” for the recent traveling exhibit “Looking East”; visitors to museums in Tokyo, Kyoto, and the MFA’s sister museum in Nagoya could try them on as part of the exhibit.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/lifesty...se-protests/lv9NHcnpW0lsRE77d9hvkI/story.html

 

[teruterubozu]

They do.

Traditionally with cake instead of KFC like in your example.

Clearly you do not know about the recent KFC Japan Christmas craze.

 

[MHWilliams]

It's a visual representation of a kimono, whether or not it's folded according to tradition. How is this disrespectful?

Well assuming Monet's original intention, Japonaise was disrespectful to real Japanese culture. So... wouldn't reinforcing the the things the painting is satirizing, be disrespectful to as well?

Note, I don't agree with the protest, but many of the arguments I'm seeing here are in error. The painting is about the fake appropriation of real Japanese culture. To celebrate it, the MFA, invite people in to put on a replica of the satire and take a picture. It is a reproduction of that satire, without - as far as I know - any attempt to get at the point of the painting or educate anyone about any Japanese culture.

The painting has taken on a larger life though. Monet eventually hated it, but it's grown beyond its creator.

 

[PeskyToaster]

If white people watch anime is that appropriation?

 

[PSqueak]

No, they have both cake and KFC on Christmas.

Clearly you do not know about the recent KFC Japan Christmas craze.

i wasn't aware, wow that's kind of really funny.

 

[Zoe]

Ahaha what?

Anecdotal here, but the Japanese people I know absolutely love watching foreign people try on a kimono. I have been asked/encouraged to do it probably dozens of times by friends/acquaintances, as well as two past girlfriends.

I suppose that they get the same kick out of it that we Europeans do when we see other people sporting kilts/lederhosen/what-have-you.

My ex-pat Japanese friend was recently gushing over this magazine spread she found that had models from around the world wearing kimonos that had been modified to incorporate different cultures/fashions. Guess I should have told her she was dishonoring herself.

 

[John Rabbit]

Iirc, I paid $80 for a poncho and my girlfriend was mad that I just accepted their price and didn't haggle. I don't think I tipped.

Racist it is. I'll add this to the list of topics to bring up with my therapist.

it was a joke about the tipping culture of America and how most foreigners don't understand it or are aware of it.

your sports poncho is fine. but you should've haggled.

 

[Dice]

It's disappointing that the term "cultural appropriation" is quickly becoming a term that people are going to ignore and/or laugh off due to its overabundant misuse.

I ignore it because it's a bullshit idea in the first place.

 

[MHWilliams]

If white people watch anime is that appropriation?

Nah. Appropriation is a big goddamn hole though. Can be rather confusing.

 

[Hazaro]

https://www.bostonglobe.com/lifesty...se-protests/lv9NHcnpW0lsRE77d9hvkI/story.html

BTFO

 

[HoodWinked]

this is probably doing more good than harm honestly. museum is getting more exposure. when was the last time musuems even made the news.

social outcry stories get so much play in news since they drive traffic its just plain stupid.

 

[Casimir]

White Party - A Lesson in Cultural Appropriation

This was the dumbest thing I've seen in awhile. And I just listened to Trump try to walk his way out of his 'mexican's are rapists' comments.

 

[dream]

Well assuming Monet's original intention, Japonaise was disrespectful to real Japanese culture. So... wouldn't reinforcing the the things the painting is satirizing, be disrespectful to as well?

Note, I don't agree with the protest, but many of the arguments I'm seeing here are in error. The painting is about the fake appropriation of real Japanese culture. To celebrate it, the MFA, invite people in to put on a replica of the satire and take a picture. It is a reproduction of that satire, without - as far as I know - any attempt to get at the point of the painting or educate anyone about any Japanese culture.

The painting has taken on a larger life though. Monet eventually hated it, but it's grown beyond its creator.

I think that's the problem I'm having with this. Rather than contributing to what could be a productive conversation, the MFA just backed down and gave in to the protesters.

 

[GrantDaNasty]

This is stupid.

Where do we draw the line on what is fair criticism and what is just nagging? I don't know, but this is stupid.

 

[shamanick]

Well assuming Monet's original intention, Japonaise was disrespectful to real Japanese culture. So... wouldn't reinforcing the the things the painting is satirizing, be disrespectful to as well?

Note, I don't agree with the protest, but many of the arguments I'm seeing here are in error. The painting is about the fake appropriation of real Japanese culture. To celebrate it, the MFA, invite people in to put on a replica of the satire and take a picture. It is a reproduction of that satire, without - as far as I know - any attempt to get at the point of the painting or educate anyone about any Japanese culture.

The painting has taken on a larger life though. Monet eventually hated it, but it's grown beyond its creator.

It's certainly a valid point that the celebration of the painting may be missing the point, but it's damaging to throw around accusations of racism and cultural appropriation when it is clearly not the case. It's offensive to be branded a racist simply because you are interested in a culture other than your own.

Nah. Appropriation is a big goddamn hole though. Can be rather confusing.

Which is why people need to pick their battles more carefully.

 

[Paracelsus]

Living in America

 

[dream]

https://www.bostonglobe.com/lifesty...se-protests/lv9NHcnpW0lsRE77d9hvkI/story.html

This quote is so disheartening:

“They’re obviously here to make a point,” said Katelin Hardy, who arrived at the MFA last week intending to try on a kimono. After speaking at length with the protesters, however, she decided to forgo the opportunity, even if she wasn’t “quite sure” about their objections.

“They said everyone was racist,” said Hardy. “Maybe there needs to be a little more context to it, but by the time I was done, we were leaving, and I just couldn’t.”

...mostly because this seems to be the MO for so many of the groups that protest along these lines. They don't want to debate, they don't want to educate, and they don't want an honest conversation. They just want to shout at you from a position of moral superiority.

 

[stilgar]

This new bigotry is particularly rage inducing. Stay in your original kind, people. Be true to your bloooood

 

[Izuna]

From the BBC article?


Perhaps she changed her name, but that's pretty Japanese. Don't make the same mistake you charge them with. People have a wide variety of opinions.

Okay, I wouldn't bother but, go ahead and find proof she is Japan-born. Bare in mind, Idgaf if she is Asian or not.

Yeah no, this is just as ridiculous as the black girl wearing Geisha makeup apparently being racist (and the ban posts that were in that thread haha). Or the white girl with dreads...

Cultural Appropriation is the dumbest thing I have seen people protest about. I mean, there is actual exploitation in the world and institutional racism. But no, people wearing Kimonos while white is bad.

It actually kinda annoys me that none of the protestors are Japanese. Is it only cultural appropriation when it is done in the US? Or when it is done by non-Asians/Japanese? Because if you turn on the television at any day in Japan you will see immigrants (to Japan) being made to wear traditional clothing.

I hate this sort of thing especially because it starts to blur after a point. What about half-Japanese children? How Japanese do they have to look for it to be okay?

Thing is, any talk about the meaning of the painting has nothing to do with this protest.

--

This also confused the fuck out of my partner.

It also encourages segregation imho.

 

[Cagey]

https://www.bostonglobe.com/lifesty...se-protests/lv9NHcnpW0lsRE77d9hvkI/story.html

NHK is filled with self-hating Japanese, clearly.

 

[PSYGN]

So after reading the background on the large painting... was that a true Japanese imported kimono or a western-twist replica of one with different Japanese elements? If the latter, then it would make some sense to me for the protesters to be mad as it's not an actual representation of the kimono in that case, kinda like how TV shows play Chinese instruments in the background music when discussing something Japanese? Well I guess that's slightly different, but my point is that it's not a good representation of the subject.

 

[Askherserenity]

Why is it always the kimono?

I think anime fans that appropiate japanese terms they only know from anime are 100x more offensive than people wearing a kimono to re-enact a painting by a french artist.



This too, we (mexicans) don't mind about stuff like this, that is just dressing for novelty on an event, hell, we love speedy gonzales!

It's always [miniority]-Americans who have never set a foot outside the united states who get offended in the name of actual natives of the culture they're trying to "protect".

Geeez, it's like that girl who cancelled a charity taco party at a college because aparently calling it a "fiesta" was racist.

Fuck you people, im an actual mexican born in mexico, you can't tell me what offends me.

Tell me about it. I feel this exact way all the goddamn time. Honestly, most Hispanics do not give a shit.

It's like most people go out of their way to get offended these days.